DN Diversity

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This topic contains 113 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 114 total)
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  • #216802

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi Guys,

    I would love to have some more racial variation in DN units. Here are some suggestions:

    HE: Musketeers will receive “Marksman” granting +1 range +25% critical chance

    Dwarf: Musketeer receives Defensive Strike.

    Orc: Musketeer receives Sprint (very good to have indeed, and this race doesn’t bring much to DN anyhow).

    Goblin: Juggernaut will receive Blight Mortar, dealing 9 / 9 / 9 physical/fire/blight or the old idea of a Gas Tank to replace the Flame-Tank, dealing blight damage in AoW and Inflicting some debuffs on gold.

    Draconian: Cannons receive Explosive Projectiles, instead of dealing damage in a straight line the effect becomes AoW upon impact.

    Tigran: Golems are replaced by a fast walking feline machine unit.

    #216816

    Host
    Member

    Draconian: Cannons receive Explosive Projectiles, instead of dealing damage in a straight line the effect becomes AoW upon impact.

    OMG, most overpowered ability ever! Spawn A WHOLE NOTHER COPY OF THE GAME on impact!? Mind=Blown!

    More seriously, I don’t find any of this warranted or useful. Some more difference might be nice, but not fully 6 races, and not almost any of the specific options suggested here. Maybe Drac and Goblin.

    #216822

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I’m open to suggestions. Its not warranted due to game balance, only due to game diversity. DN is the class with the second smallest number of racial variations after Sorcerer. Given, it is also a primarily non-racial race, like Sorcerer, AD and Necro, but I feel this doesn’t justify it in this case, as made clear by the Halfling Party Robot and the Frostling Frost-Tank. Furthermore, of the two living racial units the class has, the Engineer has 7 variations (out of 9 races) and the Musketeer has a 1 variation (HE) that receives… Forest Concealment – which really doesn’t work on this unit in any meaningful way. Since DN has been continuously nerfed, I personally find it less fun – although more stable – than it used to be.

    I dislike the new Muskets, they are not as fun and certainly much less useful than they once were, for example. I would like to have some variations here that make them better and more versatile. Furthermore, except the Frostlings which can synergize with their Frost-Tank and Halflings with their Brew Brother like Robots, no racial-unit <-> machine synergies really exist. I for one would like to see some introduced and the place to do it is first and foremost by diversifying the machines themselves.

    #216847

    Zaskow
    Member
    #216855

    Buczer
    Member

    I actually dont hate it. Even more, i would gladly see some diversity. I dont like some of the ideas there though.

    I would gladly see goblin bombers for goblin dreadnouth, elven double balista for Elves, Human AirGalley for Humans, Baloons and Party Robots for Halflings, balista for Archons etc. But its more a material for AoW4, and would be nightmare to balance properly.

    #216864

    Zaskow
    Member

    It wouldn’t be balance nightmare only because some things (AirGalley for Humans, Baloons) can’t be implemented in AoW. At least with same functional as they have in AoW2.
    Creating ballista isn’t very difficult though. ExNihil had already created thread for implementing ballista.

    #216871

    NINJEW
    Member

    that draconian cannon sounds an awful lot like the jugg fire mortar

    #216883

    Bob5
    Member

    I still support the blight spraying tank for Goblins.

    #216885

    ExNihil
    Member

    that draconian cannon sounds an awful lot like the jugg fire mortar

    Sure but what else can you do with cannons? This will have a smaller AoE and more physical than fire, maybe 15/12 + chance to inflict immolate on medal.

    #216888

    Lykus
    Member

    I am against any racial variants for the machines, because I think it is not fitting for the theme of the DN.

    The frost tank was probably necessary because of friendly fire for frostlings but I still think standaradized machines are great and logical.

    For the musketeery i wouldn’t mind some small racial changes.

    #216893

    Zaskow
    Member

    HE: Musketeers will receive “Marksman” granting +1 range +25% critical chance

    I think bigger damage is better. +1 range outperform other archers too much and I doubt that this is possible to implement, because we have in game only 4 ranges: short, medium, long, extreme.

    Dwarf: Musketeer receives Defensive Strike.

    It fits more with melee units.

    Orc: Musketeer receives Sprint (very good to have indeed, and this race doesn’t bring much to DN anyhow).

    Actully, my suggestion. Was rejected by community, because makes Orc musketeers op (I disagree with this though).

    Goblin: Juggernaut will receive Blight Mortar, dealing 9 / 9 / 9 physical/fire/blight or the old idea of a Gas Tank to replace the Flame-Tank, dealing blight damage in AoW and Inflicting some debuffs on gold.

    Mortar will have low damage with your suggested scheme. Compare 18 phys. + 18 fire (36 in sum) and your suggestion.
    I suggested a lot variants of Blight tank earlier. However, pure blight tank is inviable, due to commonality prevalence of blight protection/immunity. Using of “Inflict weakening” mandatory and some specific buffs.

    Draconian: Cannons receive Explosive Projectiles, instead of dealing damage in a straight line the effect becomes AoW upon impact.

    Already suggested. It’s some kind of bigger and more powerful variant of Fire bomb of Flamer.

    Tigran: Golems are replaced by a fast walking feline machine unit.

    New model needed – won’t happen.

    I still think standaradized machines are great and logical.

    Do we have entirely same machines across the real world?

    #216896

    ExNihil
    Member

    I am against any racial variants for the machines, because I think it is not fitting for the theme of the DN.

    I’m not talking about racial variants to the effect of spider golems and such stuff (except the Tigran proposal, but that is unimportant). As for other racial variants – I don’t think every race should have a unique version of all machines, but I would certainly like to see some more diversity here – also, not remaking any graphical models or giving units crazy abilities. This will also help with synergies with races that currently don’t synergize very effectively with DN and make this class a bit more versatile. Also don’t forget the fact that currently Musketeers have only a single racial variant (HE), which receives a rather useless buff (Forest Concealment, on a unit and class that isn’t sneaky or supposed to be). I would assume you wouldn’t oppose this, correct?

    @zaskow,

    I looked at some of older threads on this subject, including those you have posted here – I must say a lot of the ideas there are crazy OP IMO (not picking a fight, just my opinion) and would really destablize the game. I saw some interesting ideas so I will make a post here collecting them and giving some input. I also saw the Party Robot came from one of these threads, and it was a great addition to the game. @lykus, the Party Robot is an excellent example to what I mean btw.

    Mortar will have low damage with your suggested scheme. Compare 18 phys. + 18 fire (36 in sum) and your suggestion.

    True, I was using figures off the top of my head, so 10/10/10 or 11/11/11 (probably the first) would work well.

    Already suggested. It’s some kind of bigger and more powerful variant of Fire bomb of Flamer.

    Not at all, I saw what you suggested. I am not suggesting a cannon that fires differently – I am talking about a straight shot with Long Range + 2 (like Cannon) that explodes on impact, dealing splash AoE damage in a small radius (smaller than Juggernaut). The damage, as I suggested earlier, will be slightly less than that of normal Cannons to compensate for the dual channel. Also, it is very much possible to introduce this as a Dwarf Cannon rather than as a Draconian one due to the superior engineering of Dwarfs, but IMO Dwarfs already synergize very well with DN and don’t really need this.

    I think bigger damage is better. +1 range outperform other archers too much and I doubt that this is possible to implement, because we have in game only 4 ranges: short, medium, long, extreme.

    Actually Cannons have Long range + 2, it is very easy to implement therefore. As to the question of performance – OFC, that is the point, but the outperforming will not be drastic at all, and unlike Cannons it won’t affect siege mechanics. Also, I didn’t suggest bigger damage, I suggested higher critical chance, which I think is very good and quite balanced. What do you think?

    It fits more with melee units.

    Well, true, but Muskets are somewhat a mixed unit stat wise and they do engage – when pressed – in melee range, thus it would be a useful trait.

    Actully, my suggestion. Was rejected by community, because makes Orc musketeers op (I disagree with this though).

    Well, I dunno what arguments you went into, I think Sprint on Musketeer wouldn’t be OP but will certainly be a serious buff, making Orcs a good choice for Dreads who want to pursue a Musketeer based strategy.

    If this doesn’t work, its possible to give Orcs (or Goblins) some blight damage on Musket fire due to poision laced bullets, or alternatively “Inflict Severely Poisoned”, which works well IMO.

    #216897

    Lykus
    Member

    I still think standaradized machines are great and logical.

    Do we have entirely same machines across the real world?

    Yes.
    Example Tanks. (I am going to compare countries in the real world as they were races in athla)
    All are armoured vehicles (various variations of steel as the main material). Yes there are variations in the degree of armour, but they are always constructed with a certain specific role in mind and occur in more than one country. Their main weapon is a huge caliber projectile. Depending on the role the tank should fullfill (e. g. anti infanterie) the main weapon can varify. But these variations occur in every country (if they are willing to pay for it). Therefore differnt damage for the flame tank for example would probably occur in each race. All use the same fuel and engine. Every country in world war II used tanks with diesel/gasoline engines, because it was/is the most effective source of energy. This was despite the fact that Germany hab nearly no natural oil rsources, therefore the arguement that races would use “local, familiar” materials is in my eyes invalid. Tanks are similar because logic/science/technology forces you to build in specific forms (e.g. the wind resistence forces cars to have similar forms to minimze ist).

    #216898

    Zaskow
    Member

    I looked at some of older threads on this subject, including those you have posted here – I must say a lot of the ideas there are crazy OP IMO

    Not crazier than Call lightning on SS. 😉

    Not at all, I saw what you suggested. I am not suggesting a cannon that fires differently – I am talking about a straight shot with Long Range + 2 (like Cannon) that explodes on impact, dealing splash AoE damage in a small radius (smaller than Juggernaut).

    Same as me. Straight shot with different AoE (not line, but 7 hexes).

    The damage, as I suggested earlier, will be slightly less than that of normal Cannons to compensate for the dual channel.

    Bad idea, this nerfs effectiveness of cannon against tough enemies.

    Actually Cannons have Long range + 2, it is very easy to implement therefore.

    This bonus to range is possible only with AoE effect of cannon:
    Units and objects within the cannon’s line of fire (3 hexes beyond target) will be damaged by the cannonball as well.
    I’m not sure that this is possible for skills without AoE.

    Also, I didn’t suggest bigger damage, I suggested higher critical chance, which I think is very good and quite balanced. What do you think?

    Honestly, suggested +25% critical chance is nothing. We can get +100% to chance on grey adept with Scales of Fortune. This bonus disappears with low morale. I’d prefer more reliable +10% to damage which is placed through unit leveling.

    Well, true, but Muskets are somewhat a mixed unit stat wise and they do engage – when pressed – in melee range, thus it would be a useful trait.

    Defensive strike will be relatively weak and leave musketeers in risky melee fight for 1 more round. It would be completely useless if you have enough cover from you other troops.
    However, idea isn’t very bad.

    #216900

    ExNihil
    Member

    Guys, pls don’t start these pointless arguments and the bickering, I just read through @zaskow‘s machinery thread and I really don’t want a rehash there. I would suggest you punch each other out in RL, but since that is unlikely pls go to that thread and duke it out there. Let’s stick to concrete proposals here and their criticism.

    #216901

    ExNihil
    Member

    Bad idea, this nerfs effectiveness of cannon against tough enemies.

    This depends on the resistance of the target unit as well as any buffs/debuffs present. It could also work with equal damage but a substantial price increase.

    However, idea isn’t very bad

    High praise, I’m turning pink 😃.

    #216902

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yes.

    No.
    Tanks in different countries have numerous noticeable differences in weapon and protection.
    We don’t suggest here completely remake of machines for some races. They stay the same, but with additional features.

    High praise, I’m turning pink 😃.

    I prefer to have at least not ideal ability rather to have nothing.

    #216904

    Lykus
    Member

    Sorry but are suggesting I am not allowed to give arguments to zaskow why I am against changes? (Not being sarcastic here.)

    For the musketeers.
    I really like the idea for the defensive strike for dwares it fits thematically and is probably not OP.

    Sprint on orcs would allow you to disengage from melee and turn the unit around with a 24 phys. damage attack. I think this would be OP. (Don’t know the reasons from the other thread). Would it be to bad for the musketeers to get first strike. It would be similar to the archer and could be explained by some kind of bayonet.

    #216906

    Lykus
    Member

    Yes.

    No.
    Tanks in different countries have numerous noticeable differences in weapon and protection.
    We don’t suggest here completely remake of machines for some races. They stay the same, but with additional features.

    This is my last response to this part of the discussion if you want to discuss we should open a different thread. If you are going to do it:
    What kind of differences? The caliber of the cannon? The amount of armour? Because these changes are NOT DECIDED by the country but by performance of this tank on the battlefield/its role/the tanks of the enemy.

    #216910

    Zaskow
    Member

    What kind of differences? The caliber of the cannon? The amount of armour? Because these changes are NOT DECIDED by the country but by performance of this tank on the battlefield/its role/the tanks of the enemy.

    Actually, yes.
    Machines are constructed, due the possibility of country to pay, construction culture and military doctrine.

    End off-topic…

    #216911

    quo
    Member

    A1. I think Goblin Machines should have Wetland Walking.
    A2. The Juggernaut should create Wetlands on any non-Mountain tile it enters (instead of having Tree Crusher, which changes Forest to Barrens).

    B1. I think the Elf Flame Tank should be a Cosmic Tank. Deals 6/6/6/3 Fire/Cold/Electric/Spirit damage with a chance to inflict Dazzled. No fire/cold resistance or explosive death.

    #216912

    NINJEW
    Member

    Posting from phone so I can’t go too in detail at the moment, but I will say that im not favor of different machines. I could MAYBE see some variations in golems, but nothing else. I think the way that every machine is the same adds a lot to the thematic feel of the dreadnought, and balancewise machines have to be so high performing and fill such specific roles that I don’t see variations working out well.

    I think maybe the best place to look at racial variation for dread would be engineers, who also already have a number of racisl variations I believe. The problem is, most of these don’t usually come into play, as 90% of the time an engineer is just a reload with HP attached. Engineers actually make for great irregulars, especially with the variations already in place, but are simply too expensive and too useful elsewhere for that to really be considered. perhaps some discussion could happen in this direction?

    Also I’m pretty sure that the difference between tanks from 2 different nations would translate in game to “does my flametank have +1 def and -2 damage” more than any kind of radical ability difference. Tanks are mostly the same and do mostly the same things, and the big differences between tanks are things that every country does, rather than some country specializing in incindiary weapons or something. The only differences are going to be “how well put together is our tank, how expensive was it to build, and do we like more armor out a bigger gun or more mobility” which itself will change constantly within the country itself as they redesign and adapt their tanks to whatever they’re fighting

    #216913

    NINJEW
    Member

    Anything affecting range or big damage changes to musketeeers probably shouldn’t happen, they’re all using the same gun. I could see changes in defensive stats and movement and abilities though.

    #216915

    Lykus
    Member

    A1. I think Goblin Machines should have Wetland Walking.
    A2. The Juggernaut should create Wetlands on any non-Mountain tile it enters (instead of having Tree Crusher, which changes Forest to Barrens).

    B1. I think the Elf Flame Tank should be a Cosmic Tank. Deals 6/6/6/3 Fire/Cold/Electric/Spirit damage with a chance to inflict Dazzled. No fire/cold resistance or explosive death.

    A1 Juggs get free movement on bronze
    A2 Why? They are crushing every plants/obstacles (houses) in their path therby creating barrens. If it would rain on these tiles in the game a lot than wetlands would be a logical, but they would also eventual dry out.

    #216919

    *sigh*

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/class-units-diversity-post-1-5-discussion/
    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/machinery-diversity-thread/

    In short, everyone here hates DN diversity.

    No, we just hate:

    Stupid ideas that are poorly presented and then badly argued by idiots who are seemingly incapable of understanding opposing points of view.

    Note there is a HUGE difference between what you were suggesting and what Ex is here.

    I can definitely get behind varied muskets. Varied firearm technology (wrt muskets) and doctrine is a historic reality than can easily be parsed into the game, and serves to add to the class race dynamic (because muskets don’t define the class, whereas changes to machines changes the class far more) whereas “Goblins get blight tank ” doesn’t.

    Ofcourse you’d know this if you’d read what people wrote to you, and used your brain.

    #216921

    NINJEW
    Member

    BBB is my hero

    #216926

    ephafn
    Member

    I don’t have strong opinions either way for the machines, but the musket deserve some diversity.

    Some assorted ideas (not that sure about the races, those could be moved around):
    Orc Musketeers: Instead of Shoot Musket + Reload, get Shoot Arquebus. The Arquebus would usable only once, but be slightly stronger (+5 damage or so). If that makes the unit too weak, add War Cry to it to make it a more usable melee unit after shooting its single ranged shot.

    Dwarf Musketeers: Replace the Musket by a Forge Musket, that deals half-physical/half-fire damage.

    Human Musketeers: Get the Pike Square ability (increased defense against cavalry). Mostly as a way to model the Tercio formation.

    Goblin Musketeers: Get one or two inflict abilities on top of the ability to stagger.

    #216934

    The Mentat
    Member

    For lore reasons I would prefer if Elves had different machines.

    I don’t have a problem with Elves that are Dreadnoughts and build Constructs – as long as these machines don’t have such a slow and tanky appearence. Machines like this would IMO fit much better.
    Of course such graphical changes are extremely unrealistic…

    @OP: I like the idea of an Orc Musceteer with Sprint. Pike Square for Human Musketeers is also a good idea, reminds me of Age of Empires III. The problem is that Humans are already extremly strong Dreadnoughts.

    #216938

    quo
    Member

    A1 Juggs get free movement on bronze

    So what?

    A2 Why? They are crushing every plants/obstacles (houses) in their path therby creating barrens. If it would rain on these tiles in the game a lot than wetlands would be a logical, but they would also eventual dry out.

    This is a game where “wetlands” somehow manage to exist in Arctic and Volcanic climates. The only logical leap needed here is that Dreadnoughts would specialize in building machines that would be useful to the civilizations they lead. Hence, Goblin machinery would seem to be good at constructing canals or whatever else that result in Wetlands, and machinery (not just Juggs) capable of navigating that kind of environment.

    #216940

    Ericridge
    Member

    Currently racial variety in machinery is limited to Halfling’s Party bots and Frostling’s Frost tank.

    And racial variety is most visible in organic units aka engineers and musketeers.

    Removing the golems for tigran is quite a terrible idea in my eyes. Golems is very necessary for machine armies which is range oriented. Not to mention it is lore inappropriate. Golems is supposed to be able to tank the giants. And I don’t know tigrans well enough to know if they have a organic unit that can do something like that.

    But, from what I see, racial variety in it’s machines only has succeeded in hurting the class more than help. For Halfling’s party bot gives up defender on elite to gain nourishing meal and fireworks.

    And then, Frost tanks for the frostlings is a blow to them and benefit at same time. It makes shrines of smiting and etc harder for them to destroy but makes it easier for frostlings to destroy stuff like firstborns. I’m not sure but frost tank cannot burn down wooden walls? So they gotta ram the wooden walls.

    And for goblin dreadnoughts, taking away flame tank just to give them a blight tank probably will make them cry. Cuz that means they can get in trouble against rogues pretty fast because of shadowstalkers. Same for frostling dreadnoughts. 😛

    To me, requests for racial diversity to dreadnought is a thinly veiled request for nerfs to dreadnought class. I do not want a spirit tank when I play a human dreadnought class, I want my flame tank. There is a possible way I could agree, and that is if the racial diversity also includes the standard templates plus some random bad variety unit. Like for example, If I play frostling dreadnought, I gain access to both frost and flame tanks. Only then I will start to think of it, until then I cannot take the requests for racial diversity onto machines seriously at all.

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