Does The New Defense Mechanic Contribute to OP T4s?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Does The New Defense Mechanic Contribute to OP T4s?

This topic contains 34 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  apopov 8 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 5 posts - 31 through 35 (of 35 total)
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  • #71387

    Garresh
    Member

    Personally, I like a suggestion someone else posted a day or two ago. Make it so that you can build multiple units in a turn if you have the production for it. Can you imagine goblin cities cranking out 3 scoundrels every turn? Being able to play a numbers game could be a viable strategy. Instead of winning fights, you could just wear them down with constant waves of small cheap units, before a killing blow of a high powered disintegrate spell, or sending the heroes in.

    #71446

    Strider
    Member

    I agree with “BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN” and the others in that the damage system AoW3 uses is worse to T4s than AoW previous editions. In Shadow Magic, IMO, other particularities in the game made T4s even stronger than their AoW 3 counterparts, namely:

    Units needed to check hit before damaging: The mechanics we’re discussing in this topic, IMO, worked to T4’s advantage. Units usually had to face a high defense value before even being useful. Rembember that even though units in AoW 3 might do less damage compared to the health of T4s, even that small damage contribute something. That’s different than simply not hitting at all.
    The chance to hit even when facing unsurmountable defenses (10% in SM, up from 5% in WT, if I remember correctly) does help a bit. But vs T4s, low tiered melee barely attacked more than twice before dying themselves. The only chance was exhausting the T4’s retaliations, but he would pretty much have owned half your forces by that moment. Only archers fared better, but even then, they were usually only effective while defending a city (also thanks to Enchanted Walls, Tower Guard and the like on powerful cities).

    Upkeep cost of units: A T1 had an upkeep of 6, a T2 of 9, a T3 of 12 and a T4 of 15. In the end, having an army of weak T1s draining your resources made building them damaging to your economy most times. Compare that with 4, 8, 16, and 32 upkeep scaling of AoW 3.

    Magic worked better with higher tiered units: Even Magic worked in favor of the T4s. Permanent unit enchantments were quite powerful, but had high mana upkeep costs. Since the cost of enchanting a unit were the same no matter its tier, having fewer, more powerful units was more interesting than lots of weaker creatures. Also, battleground spells would wreak havoc on massed armies, but wouldn’t do anything significant to the high resistant T4s.

    Just my two cents.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #71472

    I agree with “BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN” and the others in that the damage system AoW3 uses is worse to T4s than AoW previous editions. In Shadow Magic, IMO, other particularities in the game made T4s even stronger than their AoW 3 counterparts, namely:
    Units needed to check hit before damaging: The mechanics we’re discussing in this topic, IMO, worked to T4′s advantage. Units usually had to face a high defense value before even being useful. Rembember that even though units in AoW 3 might do less damage compared to the health of T4s, even that small damage contribute something. That’s different than simply not hitting at all.
    The chance to hit even when facing unsurmountable defenses (10% in SM, up from 5% in WT, if I remember correctly) does help a bit. But vs T4s, low tiered melee barely attacked more than twice before dying themselves. The only chance was exhausting the T4′s retaliations, but he would pretty much have owned half your forces by that moment. Only archers fared better, but even then, they were usually only effective while defending a city (also thanks to Enchanted Walls, Tower Guard and the like on powerful cities).

    Upkeep cost of units: A T1 had an upkeep of 6, a T2 of 9, a T3 of 12 and a T4 of 15. In the end, having an army of weak T1s draining your resources made building them damaging to your economy most times. Compare that with 4, 8, 16, and 32 upkeep scaling of AoW 3.

    Magic worked better with higher tiered units: Even Magic worked in favor of the T4s. Permanent unit enchantments were quite powerful, but had high mana upkeep costs. Since the cost of enchanting a unit were the same no matter its tier, having fewer, more powerful units was more interesting than lots of weaker creatures. Also, battleground spells would wreak havoc on massed armies, but wouldn’t do anything significant to the high resistant T4s.

    Just my two cents.

    I agree with the son of Arathorn. If T-4’s are a problem (I’m not convinced that the problem is inherent, I think it is more a question of AI behavior and economy tweaks on xl maps), the problem is not here.

    #71502

    CrazyElf
    Member

    I think OP T4 units aren’t necessarily a bad thing. The power they wield make them highly prized and feared units. In a tactical battle with one T4 unit on each side, the entire focus is on those two units.

    The issue is when are so many of them make up your army that their sheer number turns a uniquely powerful unit to an ordinary OP one.

    Make no mistake, I’m all for making them more vulnerable to the weaker tier units, but I think late game T4 spam is more a consequence of allowing the player to stack an army with 6x “the best unit”.

    What’s needed is a greater diversity of the tier 4 units.

    1. A racial T4
    2. At least 1 more T4 unit for class (maybe 2)
    3. 2-3 more T3 units, 1 class, 1 racial

    #72282

    apopov
    Member

    The current mechanic in AOW3 already works well if actually used. T1s are not meant to even scratch T4 units if their commander throws them head on. The idea is that the player will use things like:

    1. Flanking to add damage to the attack. Flanking bonus AFAIK is added on after defense calculation.

    2. Smart use of counter abilities – bonuses from things like spears that add damage vs Mounted and Flying, also are added after defense. If you look carefully at all T4s, you will see that they have multiple traits that can be exploited.

    3. Hero command abilities that add seemingly tiny, but actually very powerful bonuses. +1 bonus of non melee damage type seems small, until one remembers that flanking adds bonus damage to each damage type independently

    Take a few lowly goblin with spears, cast Mighty Meek on them and put them under command of a dragon slayer with 1 point of elemental damage bonus to his army. Now watch what that tiny T1 unit can do to a T4 dragon or manticore it flanked.

    In AOW 2, there was no way 3 T1 units could reasonably hope to kill a T4 unit. The general strategy in such cases was just to mob and hope for lucky rolls.

    In AOW 3 use of smart tactics and reasonable preparation can have you win that battle reliably.

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