DRACONIAN Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions DRACONIAN Balance Discussion

This topic contains 45 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Sadist1 7 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #113209

    ExNihil
    Member

    OK Guys,

    Due to repeated public demand I am separating my Races and Classes thread into separate topics. I hope you will all participate :). My original idea was to discuss Races and Classes together in a way that could highlight the balance relations between them. I will try to inter-connect the different threads in a way that will do that, but I’m afraid there is no really good way to do it in a forum.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #113210

    ExNihil
    Member

    DRACONIANS

    Draconians are a powerful race that combines very well with all classes and has an exceptional combination with Sorcerer. Their traits: +20 fire resistance, -20 frost resistance, +3 mana on city, Fast Healing. Like terrain: Barrans and Lava, disliked: Arctic, hated: Blighted.

    Current Issues:

    1. Some draconian support units possess over-powered abilities: A. Draconian Elders possess the “Dragon Ancestry” touch buff allowing them to give any other draconian unit “Fire Strike,” which endows all of the unit’s attack forms– ranged, melee and spell casting (for heroes) – with additional 5 fire damage points. B. Draconian Flamers possess the Fire Bomb ranged attack, which in difference to all other archer units is an AoE attack with a 1 hex radius, and without either line of sight or ranged penalties as well as 100% fire protection (t1 units). C. Draconian Apprentice receives the Fire Bomb trait alongside his normal fairy fire attack, which in combination with the Sorcerer’s “School of Enchantment” research also receives the inflict stun ability. Both Flamers and Apprentices can receive of course the fire strike ability from Elders, which thus stacks and makes these units completely OP.

    2. Rather than give Draconians a decisive advantage in their racial traits, this advantage has been moved to both racial units with the Elder/Flamer and racial class units – the above mentioned + Shaman and Evangelist both of which get a fire bolt ranged attack (Evangelist is a melee only unit and Shaman has blight ranged for other races). The +20 fire resistance is at least in principle (and with the addition of more frost inflicting units) balanced out by the -20 frost resistance. The +3 mana on city is negligible and is for the most part ornamental. This leaves Fast Healing which is a very good trait indeed – giving all draconian units +6 hp regeneration per turn, which makes them very effective at map creeping. Yet Draconian units do not have the armored trait that Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Orcs have and which gives them higher defense. This makes them more vulnerable to physical damage and mitigates the perk they receive from fast healing. Thus any balancing of the units will have to account for the Draconian’s traits as well.

    Rebalance Suggestions:
    1. A. Elders: Although Dragon Ancestry is extremely powerful it is the core buff of the Draconians as a whole and their distinct edge in terms of heroes. Saying that, a +5 fire damage is simply OP and when it is combined with spell-casting accounts for between a 33-50% increase in damage of t1 and t2 spells. Therefore I suggest to reduce the total damage done in all 3 channels to +3 or to change it into a scaled ability: +5 damage on melee, +4 damage on ranged and +3 damage on spell casting, which is complicated but potentially more elegant.
    B. Flamers: In my opinion there is absolutely no reason why Fire Bomb shouldn’t be effected by Line of Sight penalties – we can assume that when a flamer doesn’t see its target he is substantially less effective than when he does see it. Furthermore, by adding the LoS penalty Goblin Mosquito Darters will again have a unique ranged ability while Flamers would still have and AoE attck without Ranged Penalty thus contributing to the uniqueness of Goblins along the way. The 100% fire resistance is excessive and should be reduced to +20% above racial standard (60% in clause 2’s suggestion).
    C: Apprentices: There is no reason why Fire Bomb should function together with Inflict Stun – this capability is completely OP. Yet if Inflict Stun do not effect fire bomb then this ability becomes by and large superfluous as the fairy fire attack of apprentices trigger x3 times rather than x1 like fire bomb and will now have a chance to stun whereby fire bomb wouldn’t. Therefore I suggest to remove Fire Bomb completely from the Apprentice and transfer it to a different class unit.
    Here two problems appear: First it is clear why the devs gave apprentices Fire Bomb – draconian racial class units are all supports and there are only three class specific support units (apprentice, shaman and evangelist) and apprentices already have fairy fire which includes a fire damage channel. Therefore the only solution here is a compromise and it is to give a draconian non-support class unit ranged fire attack. In my opinion there are only two viable options the Rogue’s t3 Succubus and the Warlord’s t2 Monster-Hunter. Although conceptually both can work, the Monster Hunter appears immediately before a ranged unit and giving it this capability will detract from the Mounted Archer. Also the Succubus’ concept works better with Fire Bomb and this will be a real boost to Rogue who has need of more ranged attacks. I would therefore rather see it on the Succubus. Second this change The Sorcerer is the only class with a single racial class unit, and the only special variation of this unit is the draconian apprentice. Thus by removing Fire Bomb from the apprentice the Sorcerer becomes the only class with no special variation to its racial unit. I therefore suggest to introduce a Goblin Apprentice with +3 blight on its ranged attack, thus giving it 4 damage channels rather than 3. This will further assist the poor condition of the Goblin and make it a more attractive option for Sorcerer.

    2. If these changes are implemented then there will be a need to add some buffs to the Draconian traits. I think an additional 20% fire resistance is only logical – they are after all the offspring of fire dragons. Also a +1 defense seems in order as they have harder skins because of scales. I would also like to see the +3 per city bonus doubled to +6 to make it more alluring. Finally, I think Draconian Charger should receive the Sprint ability (it is currently a bit like a chicken with useless wings).

    #113400

    Bob5
    Member

    I really don’t think Chargers need Sprint, they’re fine pikemen units and Charge makes them fairly nasty when used to flank cavalry units. I think Charge makes them possibly better pikemen than Orc Impalers.

    Dragon Ancestry may be slightly OP, not sure about it. I haven’t heard anyone else complain about it even though I use it all the time. I think it’ll already be a bit more balanced once/if Elders require Temple to produce so they can’t be spammed as easily (which I’ve seen some talk of a few times). Less Elders means less buffs, and they’re quite squishy units that are very vulnerable to stuff like elf archers or flanking melee units.

    I agree about the line-of-sight penalties on Flamers, it’s a bit excessive together with no ranged penalties

    Apprentice Fire Bomb can stay in my opinion. It will be less OP if LoS penalties return on Fire Bomb, which seems to be the main reason to call the combo with Inflict Stun OP, as Fire Bomb still deals lots of damage where Fairy Fire would get penalties combined with the stun chance. Apprentices are like T2.5 units and shouldn’t be compared with racial T2 supports, they’re also priced like T2.5 while Fairy Fire hardly deals more damage than most support bolt attacks, especially against higher resistance targets.

    #113402

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    This thread needs some organizing as well. I will take the liberty to sum the points up briefly to make it easier to comment.
    1) Draconian support units op
    2) Draconian ranged unit op

    1) You deliver an elegant but hardly feasible solution to the Dragon Ancestry problem. My solution would be much more simplistic: Remove the effects on ranged attacks and spellcasting and enhance the effects on melee damage. The Apprentice is an edge case but I think it can remain the way it is now (the chance to stun multiple targets equates to the 3x chance to stun one prime target) I agree that the draconian evangelist should not have a ranged attack where all the others have not. I think that the draconian shaman shooting fire in addition to poison is ok.

    2) The Flamer is fine as it is imo, with firebomb and 100% fire protection.

    I am all for having all draconians starting with 20% fire protection and increasing it by 20% with each medal, apart from elder and flamer who have it by default.

    Lorewise I have always found it odd that draconians, who descend from dragons, are solely fire-based (previously a little poison as well), while frost dragons have always been as much part of aow as fire dragons have. I was surprised and not enamored by the fact that they have cold weakness in this edition. Gamewise, I admit, it was a good decision, even though it holds close ties with a return of Frostlings, which I am expecting at some point.

    #113501

    ExNihil
    Member

    I really don’t think Chargers need Sprint, they’re fine pikemen units and Charge makes them fairly nasty when used to flank cavalry units. I think Charge makes them possibly better pikemen than Orc Impalers.

    You should understand this in the context of buffing Draconians.

    Dragon Ancestry may be slightly OP, not sure about it. I haven’t heard anyone else complain about it even though I use it all the time. I think it’ll already be a bit more balanced once/if Elders require Temple to produce so they can’t be spammed as easily (which I’ve seen some talk of a few times). Less Elders means less buffs, and they’re quite squishy units that are very vulnerable to stuff like elf archers or flanking melee units.

    It might be a bit more balanced but the nature of the Buff this ability gives is extremely OP, not slightly so. +5 fire damage on all channels is the strongest unit buffing effect (spell or ability) in game, and the fact it is available on a t2 unit is problematic to say the least. As for the temples transition – people are really over-emphasizing this. This will make the appearance of supports slightly later and no more then that, for some classes they will remain the backbone of their strategies no doubt. I suggest you give MP a try – Supports dominate most games and most classes and that is only in very small part due to shrines being so readily available.

    Apprentice Fire Bomb can stay in my opinion. It will be less OP if LoS penalties return on Fire Bomb, which seems to be the main reason to call the combo with Inflict Stun OP, as Fire Bomb still deals lots of damage where Fairy Fire would get penalties combined with the stun chance. Apprentices are like T2.5 units and shouldn’t be compared with racial T2 supports, they’re also priced like T2.5 while Fairy Fire hardly deals more damage than most support bolt attacks, especially against higher resistance targets.

    I have no other way to say this, but you are wrong. Fire Bomb is used because it allows you to stun multiple units simultaneously. This completely decimates lower tier (1-2) units and is also murderous in multi-stack battles. The biggest advantage is in siege attacks when your apprentices can phase close to the walls and bombard the defenders. When units are grouped, as they are in wall defense situations, a stack of apprentices and a stack of elders can decimate t3 unit armies because of fire bomb. The biggest problem is the combination of an AoE attack with stun – this is OP. As for the t2.5, this is incorrect – stat wise they are identical to other t2 units aside from the Fire bomb that is, and price wise they only cost 10 gold and 10 mana more then other apprentices.

    1) You deliver an elegant but hardly feasible solution to the Dragon Ancestry problem. My solution would be much more simplistic: Remove the effects on ranged attacks and spellcasting and enhance the effects on melee damage. The Apprentice is an edge case but I think it can remain the way it is now (the chance to stun multiple targets equates to the 3x chance to stun one prime target) I agree that the draconian evangelist should not have a ranged attack where all the others have not. I think that the draconian shaman shooting fire in addition to poison is ok.

    The change you propose to dragon ancestry will make it a stronger version of the Dwarven buff but without the heal and the fire-resistance. This is an extreme rebalance that will really change the operation of the Draconians. I am not sure it is simple at all :). I would remove it from spellcasting and leave it with ranged, reducing it by -1 point. I think the evangelist should get a proper ranged attack and draconian one can get fire-bolts – I will post on Theo and explain my position in length.

    #113535

    HereticSage
    Member

    I actually think other races should be balanced more like draconians. Dracs don’t get healing skills, so they get fast healing, which is really not huge in the grand scheme of things. What they excel at is offense. Their pikemen have charge, their cav get resistances against the second most common element on levelup, they get a flying unit, and their dragon ancestry is a super fun skill that literally is only imbalanced on heroes.

    Why aren’t other races this fun? Because their weaknesses outweigh their strengths. This happens in 2 ways: Available unit types. Infantry is nearly always superior on T3. This is actually because high tier infantry is hard to come by, and infantry is actually important unless you have access to higher tier research for your class. But money is actually easier to come by than research now, so balance was shifted in favor of race units over class units, putting humans, orcs, and goblins (but not elves!) further behind. Elves don’t suffer because their cav is flying, which is pretty useful, and they have the strongest racial range in the game.

    The second way other races aren’t fun: Orcs suck in player combat, goblins suck in auto-combat, human tier 3 has too many weaknesses on top of being cav, ansd most importantly, literally only humans have enough redeeming qualities to be niche. Humans have the strongest non-theocrat stragetic map healing bar none. 15 hp/turn is niiiiice. This makes them a great niche pick for: Rogue, Dreadnought, Sorcerer, and (ha) Warlord because all their tier 2 units are awesome in place of their missing infantry. You could say the same about archdruid, but other races do it better. Orcs and goblins get no such redemption.

    So why is this relevant to Draconians? Because I feel like they are the ideal balance. They are cool and fun, they have obvious strengths, they have weaknesses, so they die (I don’t care what you say, you can kill them, especially if you take water adept, but most particularly, their strongest units, their flamers) are the easiest to kill). Also, their pikemen are epitome of fun. They have charge, for god’s sake. Don’t nerf these guys, make the other races as awesome as them.

    #113543

    Gloweye
    Member

    I agree with limiting the Dragon Ancestry to melee attacks. I first used that(without knowing it worked on ranged attacks) in Elf Campain lvl 2. Shoot Longbow with 2 damage channels is insane.

    Regarding fire bomb, I’d return range penalty over LoS penalty. If the bomb is big enough to hit everyone standing near(AoE), than it doesn’t matter if you can see the enemy, you just have to know the general direction where the enemy is standing.

    I like the option of Fire Bomb on Apprentice. I understand AoE stun is OP, but what if you’d have only half stun chance with the range penalty?(Dont know for sure how this works right now, but it seems logical to me..)

    Must say that I like Fire Bomb on Succubus as well, but well, i’ve always liked rogue the most and i’ll just take any advantage you give me…Especially if it means getting a ranged attack on my T3 support. Especially cause that support is getting Life Steal+Regeneration on Gold medal..

    #113626

    ExNihil
    Member

    I agree with limiting the Dragon Ancestry to melee attacks. I first used that(without knowing it worked on ranged attacks) in Elf Campain lvl 2. Shoot Longbow with 2 damage channels is insane.

    This is a valid option but if it is nerfed in this way then Draconians need more of a buff elsewhere.

    Regarding fire bomb, I’d return range penalty over LoS penalty. If the bomb is big enough to hit everyone standing near(AoE), than it doesn’t matter if you can see the enemy, you just have to know the general direction where the enemy is standing.

    I actually agree with you regarding this point but it creates a very problematic situation: AoE attack + no LoS penalty is simply devastating – especially early-mid game and in siege situations. When compared to the other t1 archers Flamers appear to be extremely strong. Ranged penalty will work here to a degree but it might be necessary to nerf the base damage.

    I like the option of Fire Bomb on Apprentice. I understand AoE stun is OP, but what if you’d have only half stun chance with the range penalty?(Dont know for sure how this works right now, but it seems logical to me..)

    If the chance for stun becomes significantly lower – which is what you need in this case – then fire-bomb becomes superfluous, as I wrote in the original post. If you preserve the no LoS penalty on fire-bomb and make the stun dependent on range it will still not work in most situations. A stack of apprentices can phase relatively close to their targets and bombard them. It is ofc dependent on the situation and players but it is an OP capability that has very few counters. Stun is rolled vs. resistance and shock resistance.

    Must say that I like Fire Bomb on Succubus as well, but well, i’ve always liked rogue the most and i’ll just take any advantage you give me…Especially if it means getting a ranged attack on my T3 support. Especially cause that support is getting Life Steal+Regeneration on Gold medal..

    I’m glad you like it, i like it as well. It doesn’t have to be Fire Bomb though – it can be fire bolts x3, as in Shaman / Evangelist. I think this will be a more balanced solution for Draconians and will treat sorcerer in a different post.

    #113627

    ExNihil
    Member

    So why is this relevant to Draconians? Because I feel like they are the ideal balance. They are cool and fun, they have obvious strengths, they have weaknesses, so they die (I don’t care what you say, you can kill them, especially if you take water adept, but most particularly, their strongest units, their flamers) are the easiest to kill). Also, their pikemen are epitome of fun. They have charge, for god’s sake. Don’t nerf these guys, make the other races as awesome as them.

    The idea is not to remove the fun or nerf them, it is to rebalance them. In particular the Draconians offer an overwhelming combination with the Sorcerer – the result is that you see only Draconian Sorcerers. Same is true to a lesser degree of the AD and Theocrat. This is a balance issue – there shouldn’t be such overwhelmingly OP combinations, all races should bring something to the table, and all races should have some capabilities to counter the others. Draconians appear atm to be in a niche of their own and this is a problem. I do agree they are fun, but nobody is talking about making the charger not charge or the cavalry lose its level up buffs or the flyer walk. The discussion is about Dragon Ancestry, which is OP on heroes and also on ranged, Firebomb that has no penalties, and apprentices that get stunning Firebomb.

    #113712

    HereticSage
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>HereticSage wrote:</div>
    So why is this relevant to Draconians? Because I feel like they are the ideal balance. They are cool and fun, they have obvious strengths, they have weaknesses, so they die (I don’t care what you say, you can kill them, especially if you take water adept, but most particularly, their strongest units, their flamers) are the easiest to kill). Also, their pikemen are epitome of fun. They have charge, for god’s sake. Don’t nerf these guys, make the other races as awesome as them.

    The idea is not to remove the fun or nerf them, it is to rebalance them. In particular the Draconians offer an overwhelming combination with the Sorcerer – the result is that you see only Draconian Sorcerers. Same is true to a lesser degree of the AD and Theocrat. This is a balance issue – there shouldn’t be such overwhelmingly OP combinations, all races should bring something to the table, and all races should have some capabilities to counter the others. Draconians appear atm to be in a niche of their own and this is a problem. I do agree they are fun, but nobody is talking about making the charger not charge or the cavalry lose its level up buffs or the flyer walk. The discussion is about Dragon Ancestry, which is OP on heroes and also on ranged, Firebomb that has no penalties, and apprentices that get stunning Firebomb.

    Because the other races are not good in many ways. Dracs are not too good. And I mentioned that dragon ancestry on heroes is currently stupid. If not for the spell effects, elves, dwarves, and humans would make great sorcerers also. They do as it is, but people like their spell spamming (which btw, I hate).

    Edit: Scaling +ranged damage on fire strike for heroes is also stupid. Fix those two issues and they cease to be op.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  President.
    #113728

    ExNihil
    Member

    You ignore the combination of fire-strike with fire-bomb and especially the huge advantage of draconian apprentices. I have not seen a single experienced player using humans or high elves for sorcerers. Dwarfs are occasionally used because of their superb stats on support units but this is more restricted to 1v1 games in which rushing is much more of a factor and reaching school of enchantment is a dubious strategy to focus your racial choice on.

    P.S. please refrain from calling stuff stupid – lets keep it civil.

    #113748

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    Bob5 wrote:

    I really don’t think Chargers need Sprint, they’re fine pikemen units and Charge makes them fairly nasty when used to flank cavalry units. I think Charge makes them possibly better pikemen than Orc Impalers.

    You should understand this in the context of buffing Draconians.

    Sprint for chargers at gold medal would be fair game, I’d say.

    The change you propose to dragon ancestry will make it a stronger version of the Dwarven buff but without the heal and the fire-resistance. This is an extreme rebalance that will really change the operation of the Draconians. I am not sure it is simple at all 🙂 . I would remove it from spellcasting and leave it with ranged, reducing it by -1 point.

    Dragon ancestry gives 40% fire resistance, just like guardian flame. It also bestows high morale. So the only difference would be high morale – healing. I concur that the fire strike ability (which affects ranged) on dragon ancestry should remain in order to differatiate from the +2 fire damage of guardian flame.

    Must say that I like Fire Bomb on Succubus as well, but well, i’ve always liked rogue the most and i’ll just take any advantage you give me…Especially if it means getting a ranged attack on my T3 support. Especially cause that support is getting Life Steal+Regeneration on Gold medal..

    My opinion in this matter would be the same as to regarding the ranged attack on the evangelist … either all of them should get a ranged ability, or none of them.

    #113786

    HereticSage
    Member

    You ignore the combination of fire-strike with fire-bomb and especially the huge advantage of draconian apprentices. I have not seen a single experienced player using humans or high elves for sorcerers. Dwarfs are occasionally used because of their superb stats on support units but this is more restricted to 1v1 games in which rushing is much more of a factor and reaching school of enchantment is a dubious strategy to focus your racial choice on.

    Fire strike/fire bomb is only good when you hit 3 or more units. If you don’t, it’s equal or less to triple strike. So no… not as good as people think. I use humans for sorcerers. Wanna know something that sucks to deal with? Daze and stun procs from the same unit. It also heals on strategic map. As for fire bomb on apprentices, it’s actually weaker than on them than the archer unit because of level up bonuses. Secondly, again, unless you’re hitting more than 3 units, it’s less value, or hitting more than multiple units on max range. Hitting a single unit is 33% weaker than penalized triple strike on single targets. So no, I did not ignore anything. I did the math. I also actually used all these things in actual matches. Have you?

    P.S. please refrain from calling stuff stupid – lets keep it civil.

    Did I direct this at a person? No? Then I am being civil. I can call a mechanic stupid. Especially when I’m pretty sure it was an unintended effect. If not, then it was a really bad balance choice.

    #113793

    Bob5
    Member

    I think Evangelists need some other kind of buff. Even Draconian Evangelists are generally quite useless compared to Elders that cost less than half the price of Evangelists (160 gold, 40 mana vs 70 gold, 20 mana). Elders get Ancestry buff and more damage on fire bolts thanks to medal upgrades (including Immolation at silver), and also get fire immunity. Draconian Evangelists lack damage on their fire bolts, lack a solid fire resistance that most racial Draconians get with medals, and they’re just too overpriced to be worth anything when Dispel is everywhere to easily cancel out Convert. The only thing that Evangelists have over Elders is better HP.

    I don’t think Draconians are much better than other races as Theocrats. I think Orcs have a better synergy, they can make much better use of the increased healing powers as well as make good use of the resistance buffs. Orc Crusaders get Tireless, and Exalted function very well in combination with Shock Troopers to distract, engage, stun, or daze support units, while Orc Martyrs get more HP to absorb for other units.

    #113794

    HereticSage
    Member

    I don’t think Draconians are much better than other races as Theocrats.

    Dracs and gobs are the worst theocrats because they don’t get dispel magic, which is a tremendous weakness that no one has discussed when talking about balance. If you land a debuff on a drac, it either sticks or costs them casting points and a turn of spell to fix. The exception is if they are a sorcerer or get a sorc hero.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  President.
    #113801

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    Fire strike/fire bomb is only good when you hit 3 or more units. If you don’t, it’s equal or less to triple strike. So no… not as good as people think. I use humans for sorcerers. Wanna know something that sucks to deal with? Daze and stun procs from the same unit. It also heals on strategic map. As for fire bomb on apprentices, it’s actually weaker than on them than the archer unit because of level up bonuses. Secondly, again, unless you’re hitting more than 3 units, it’s less value, or hitting more than multiple units on max range. Hitting a single unit is 33% weaker than penalized triple strike on single targets. So no, I did not ignore anything. I did the math. I also actually used all these things in actual matches. Have you?

    Dear @hereticsage

    MMMM whatcha say,
    Mmm, that you only mean well..

    But. You are terribly wrong. True, human priest is good.. stun and daze is also good… except thing, that human priest will be killed easy by for example human theo – because suddenly with strong will u cant even shoot on them. Or warlord with blood brothers. And they are useless vs many t4 which have usually 100% spirit protect.
    More funny is your oppinion on draconian apprentice. They are TOTALLY IMBA. Also its not true its worth to fire bomb on 3 or more units, because bomb has no range and no obstacle penalty…. so apprentices are one of best defenders AND also great attackers in the game.. well considering t2 and some t3 units… cannons are better, but still stunning firebomb is awesome weapon.
    Also apprentices has dispell magic, so they counter the biggest draconian weaknes.
    Its support with steal enchant, fire bomb, teleport, stun and projectile resistance… he has also some magical healing… and if u want something extra, on gold he is invisible. Tell me about how its not imba.
    And its only unit of this kind in game, so its definitelly easier to nerf them than buff everything else.

    #113818

    ExNihil
    Member

    I did the math. I also actually used all these things in actual matches. Have you?

    Hmm… yes for a few hundred hours of MP games as sorcerer….

    Wanna know something that sucks to deal with? Daze and stun procs from the same unit.

    Aside from what @abednegojc wrote above you also don’t consider you need to get your support units to gold to get daze.

    Did I direct this at a person? No? Then I am being civil. I can call a mechanic stupid. Especially when I’m pretty sure it was an unintended effect. If not, then it was a really bad balance choice.

    Well, if I suggest a mechanic and you call it stupid it is not being civil in my book. Furthermore, you have not established why it is a bad idea at all.

    #113825

    HereticSage
    Member

    Well, if I suggest a mechanic and you call it stupid it is not being civil in my book. Furthermore, you have not established why it is a bad idea at all.

    Seriously? Did you even read what I wrote? It’s an already existing mechanic. You take +ranged damage on a drac hero, add ancestry, fire damage goes up equal to the number of ranks (x+5). It’s a silly stupid mechanic. I have literally no idea what you’re talking about, as I was not talking about anyone’s ideas.

    #113831

    ExNihil
    Member

    I misunderstood, I apologize, but you need to relax.

    #113931

    I have not seen a single experienced player using humans or high elves for sorcerers.

    since firebomb was added to draconian apprentices/lost the ranged penalties, you mean. I think it is a little bit of a fad, since the draconian apprentice was the shiny new thing, and the High Elf Storm sister did lose double inflict stun. Draconian is the very best sorcerer choice, although I think that Dwarf and High Elf also have some good options.

    Perhaps the most obvious thing is that draconians get 30 damage chain lightning, often almost from the very beginning (assuming you start with one support unit).

    After that, I’d say just move firebomb to gold for the Draconian Apprentice. That way, you’d have to micro a bit/get lucky to have one at the top level, and a sprinkling of super apprentices would be useful without being unbalanced.

    It also parallels with inflict stun and daze human priests.

    #113935

    ExNihil
    Member

    After that, I’d say just move firebomb to gold for the Draconian Apprentice. That way, you’d have to micro a bit/get lucky to have one at the top level, and a sprinkling of super apprentices would be useful without being unbalanced.

    That is a good proposal in principal, but it doesn’t solve the balancing issue: every race has three class units that have a special something, e.g. Orc Crusader, Goblin Scoundrel and High-Elf Bard. This special something is available at baseline, thus if draconian apprentice receives fire-bomb at gold there still needs to be a new draconian racial unit.

    To use your solution would require giving all races 4 units with racial attributes: 3 with bonuses at baseline and 1 at gold-medal. The problem with this I guess is that with the introduction of more races many units will have multiple races giving them bonuses.

    #113950

    Bob5
    Member

    Perhaps the most obvious thing is that draconians get 30 damage chain lightning, often almost from the very beginning (assuming you start with one support unit).

    Am I the only one that doesn’t get Chain Lightning till like turn 40 in the research tree? I’m not rushing through combat spell research admittedly, but I often get Harmonizing Energy, Star Blades, Sphere of Protection, and Magic Fist first, and I generally prioritise CP research, class units until at least Fantastic Creature, and Empire Upgrades.

    #113951

    That is a good proposal in principal, but it doesn’t solve the balancing issue: every race has three class units that have a special something, e.g. Orc Crusader, Goblin Scoundrel and High-Elf Bard. This special something is available at baseline, thus if draconian apprentice receives fire-bomb at gold there still needs to be a new draconian racial unit.

    or you could add “inflicts scorching wounds” to the Draconian Apprentice at base, or inflict immolation, if that isn’t good enough.

    Actually, you could either pair “inflicts scorching wounds” at base with “firebomb” at gold, or just replace “firebomb” with “inflicts immolation”.

    That way, the Draconian Apprentice is still really awesome (for the hp loss/debuff), but not over powered en mass.

    #113952

    ExNihil
    Member

    That is a great proposal! I think inflict immolation will be a much more balanced option on the Draconian apprentice then firebomb and it will solve this problem.

    #113970

    vota dc
    Member

    That would make apprentices a lot stronger against hight tier units while weaker for crowd control.

    #113994

    ExNihil
    Member

    That would make apprentices a lot stronger against hight tier units while weaker for crowd control.

    It will make the apprentice not IMBA in multi-stack battles against t1-3 units, but why will it make it stronger against highter tier units?

    Consider pls that all class t4 units + the Shadow Stalker have no fire resistance (horned god and shrine of smiting -20%) and that all but the machines can be stunned.

    I am not against giving a powerful trait to the apprentices and Inflict Immolation in my opinion has a great balance: It is a substantial boost on the one hand, but on the other it is not more powerful then what the opponent can field probably. This will make the choice for sorcerer much more diverse and will make the draconian apprentice stronger but not OP.

    This still leaves the question of Dragon Ancestry though. I think there is a consensus in this thread that its operation on spell casting is really too much.* I also think that +5 fire damage on melee and ranged is also excessive and would like to see there numbers reduced a bit, that is even without considering the fact that Dragon Ancestry also bestows High Morale and +40% fire protection. All in all I think it is clearly OP.

    *I think in general no single race have such a buff for heroes while others have nothing that comes even close, as Draconian heroes (especially with the all heroes from the leader’s race option on) are potentially simply superior this way.

    #114074

    Draxynnic
    Member

    In my opinion there is absolutely no reason why Fire Bomb shouldn’t be effected by Line of Sight penalties – we can assume that when a flamer doesn’t see its target he is substantially less effective than when he does see it. Furthermore, by adding the LoS penalty Goblin Mosquito Darters will again have a unique ranged ability while Flamers would still have and AoE attack without Ranged Penalty thus contributing to the uniqueness of Goblins along the way.

    The general idea in both cases is that they’re attacks where precision doesn’t really matter. If you’re firing darts that are serving mostly as a delivery system for a swarm of poisonous insects, it doesn’t matter all that much if your dart hits the enemy in the face, sticks in their armour, or misses entirely and lands next to them – they’re going to have a swarm of bugs to deal with regardless. If you’re throwing a ball of flame that indiscriminately burns everything in a wide area (think about how much space a hex must represent even on the tactical map) then it really doesn’t matter if you’re a few feet off.

    If they genuinely are too powerful, I’d be inclined to give them penalties for distance again. After all, the original flamers had an attack that was closer to the blunderbuss attack in usage – it’d make sense for them to be more effective in close even if they have learned to project their fire over greater distances.

    Regarding the draconian apprentice debate – personally, my preference is for firebomb to be kept as an interesting alternative option to Fairy Fire – and to give apprentices of other races their own special racial spells. On the whole, if someone is planning to open up a set of class threads, this is probably better discussed under the sorcerer than here.

    #114085

    ExNihil
    Member

    The general idea in both cases is that they’re attacks where precision doesn’t really matter. If you’re firing darts that are serving mostly as a delivery system for a swarm of poisonous insects, it doesn’t matter all that much if your dart hits the enemy in the face, sticks in their armour, or misses entirely and lands next to them – they’re going to have a swarm of bugs to deal with regardless. If you’re throwing a ball of flame that indiscriminately burns everything in a wide area (think about how much space a hex must represent even on the tactical map) then it really doesn’t matter if you’re a few feet off.

    Don’t take it the wrong way – I appreciate and welcome your paticipation, BUT you have a tendency to explain stuff with the assumption that I or other do not understand the idea of why X or Y is done. I do understand, but I also think that the person who made that decision based on the idea of: Flamer is throwing a Bomb unto hex x, he has no ranged penalty because the attack occurs upon impact and not before and no line of sight penalty for the same reason, made a serious oversight in terms of game-balance. Hence I am giving an explanation of how removing this ability can be justified. You will note though that further on in the thread I do agree that the ranged penalty will be more appropriate here.

    Regarding the draconian apprentice debate – personally, my preference is for firebomb to be kept as an interesting alternative option to Fairy Fire – and to give apprentices of other races their own special racial spells. On the whole, if someone is planning to open up a set of class threads, this is probably better discussed under the sorcerer than here.

    Again you are missing the direction from which I am discussing stuff – The idea is to find a balance using the existing game mechanics and while preserving the balance of the game. If you will look at the units, among other game elements of course, you can see a pattern of how racial class units receive a special bonus. There are 3 units for each race that receive a special bonus and 3 alone: For Humans it is always t1 class units that do not have a strong melee basis and which throw net as a close-quarters defensive measure; For Elves it is units with ranged abilities that become more formidable archer units; For Dwarves its units that engage at close quarters and become stronger against defending archers; For Orcs it is brute-force melee units that receive tireless; For Goblins it is t1 -2 units with 1 shot ranged attacks that receive +4 blight damage; AND for Draconians its the class support units, of which there are 3- Apprentice, Evangelist and Shaman, all of whom get special fire based ranged attacks. If you will introduce other apprentice units to this scheme this balance will be lost. I.E. the devs will not do so.

    Furthermore, the problem with firebomb is the fact that it is IMBA and OP not only relative to the Sorcerer but also and especially relative to other classes. Hence the solution offered by @chrysophylax páuperem seems to me to be the best one- replacing the fire bomb with inflict immolation, both answers the balance criteria of Draconians buffing class support units’ ranged capabilities with fire and rebalances the IMBA.

    #114104

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Don’t take it the wrong way – I appreciate and welcome your paticipation, BUT you have a tendency to explain stuff with the assumption that I or other do not understand the idea of why X or Y is done.

    You said, and I quote again:

    Flamers: In my opinion there is absolutely no reason why Fire Bomb shouldn’t be effected by Line of Sight penalties – we can assume that when a flamer doesn’t see its target he is substantially less effective than when he does see it.

    Thus, I provided you with a reason. If, when you wrote that sentence, you did see the reason for it, perhaps you should not have claimed that you see no reason for it.

    Again you are missing the direction from which I am discussing stuff – The idea is to find a balance using the existing game mechanics and while preserving the balance of the game. If you will look at the units, among other game elements of course, you can see a pattern of how racial class units receive a special bonus.

    That may be the pattern that’s been observed, but not one that the devs have stated as policy to my knowledge. I’ll also point out here that you’ve repeatedly suggested mixing up the balance of races disliking or hating themes (the first part of a terrain) and liking features (the second part) so if I am ignoring an established trend… then yes, Mr Pot, I am indeed black. However, this kettle understands at least some of the reasoning why the terrain modifiers are as they are and thus why they’re less likely to change.

    In this case… you’ve claimed yourself that draconians are seen as too obvious a choice for playing sorcerer because their apprentices get a special ability, while other race’s apprentices just have their racial characteristics. The problem is that other classes do have a wider range of units upon which racial benefits can kick in – archdruid gets special benefits from elves, draconians, and humans, and other classes have something for all or nearly all of the races. However, sorcerers are relying on a single unit for their racial distinction. So unless the benefit for draconian apprentices gets pared back completely to something basically trivial, then that’s always going to be a strong draw. My proposal would be to give apprentices of every race something special.

    Frankly, I think giving draconian evangelists a ranged attack is a much more significant racial advantage, but we don’t see every theocrat being a draconian… why? Because it’s competing with tireless orc crusaders.

    #114110

    ExNihil
    Member

    Thus, I provided you with a reason. If, when you wrote that sentence, you did see the reason for it, perhaps you should not have claimed that you see no reason for it.

    You are obviously an intelligent guy – I refer you to the second half of the sentence you qouted in which I explain my reasons. If you still fail to understand me, consider the argument won in your favour :).

    Frankly, I think giving draconian evangelists a ranged attack is a much more significant racial advantage, but we don’t see every theocrat being a draconian… why? Because it’s competing with tireless orc crusaders.

    I agree that giving evangelist ranged when it isnt is a big IMBA – I will post on the Theocrat and will discuss it in length there. I have thou explained why you see almost exclusively draconian sorcerers and not others – i.e. grossly OP and IMBA and so forth (see previous post). You are welcome to join some MP games to have a feel of the phenomena first hand rather then argue this point in the abstract. Also, you do see quite a bit of Draconian Theocrats – you don’t see many Orcs, simply because they are a weak race ATM.

    . The problem is that other classes do have a wider range of units upon which racial benefits can kick in – archdruid gets special benefits from elves, draconians, and humans, and other classes have something for all or nearly all of the races. However, sorcerers are relying on a single unit for their racial distinction. So unless the benefit for draconian apprentices gets pared back completely to something basically trivial, then that’s always going to be a strong draw. My proposal would be to give apprentices of every race something special.

    Well, you are disregarding two things: 1. Sorcerer has only a single racial unit whereby even AD has two. 2. The Devs are introducing new races and classes, I assume that rather then give the initial 6 races / classes more special racial class units, they are saving the existing units / class slots for the new races/classes. Alas, as I myself proposed, I would like to see Goblin apprentices with a blight damage channel and so forth, but as I also wrote – that will create a new balancing problem and is thus no solution to the problem at hand.

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