DRACONIAN Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions DRACONIAN Balance Discussion

This topic contains 45 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Sadist1 7 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 16 posts - 31 through 46 (of 46 total)
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  • #114170

    Draxynnic
    Member

    You are obviously an intelligent guy – I refer you to the second half of the sentence you qouted in which I explain my reasons. If you still fail to understand me, consider the argument won in your favour 🙂 .

    Yeah, I was taking into account the second part of the sentence. What I was pointing out was that when you have an artillery attack that can strike multiple units, all you really need to do is hit the hex, not to hit a soldier as conventional archers need to do.

    Well, you are disregarding two things: 1. Sorcerer has only a single racial unit whereby even AD has two.

    This is exactly why the sorcerer is special in this respect. Sorcerer only has one class unit that’s produced at a city, so all of the racial specialness is going to be focused on that unit. When there’s only one race that gets anything special with that unit at all…

    …well, of course it’s going to be a popular combination. You could nerf it down to the point of being almost trivial, and people are still going to favour it because it has something special when other races don’t. You’d need to get a pretty strong synergy with the class from the base racial units to overwhelm the fact that one race gets a shiny with that class and the other races don’t (and to be honest, the truth is that draconians were probably one of the better races to synergise with sorcerer to begin with).

    We’ve given a few good reasons why the firebomb/stun combination is a nice option to have, but is generally not objectively a better option to use than threeshotting Fairy Fire with three chances to stun the unit you actually want stunned. You’re presenting its popularity as evidence that it’s overpowered. I’m saying that it’s not a popular combination because it’s OP, it’s a popular combination because draconian apprentices have a shiny and other race’s apprentices don’t. And that’s going to be the case regardless of what that shiny is unless it gets nerfed down to the point of being roughly equivalent to the elven +1 to shock channels… at which point, the racial distinction is gone.

    Because the sorcerer only has one unit that’s affected by race, that means racial distinction for sorcerers comes down to only that unit (and synergies with pure racial units – which, to be fair, are more important for sorcerers). As a result, the only way to arrest its overpopularity is to nerf it into impotence, or to give something special to apprentices of other races (maybe not all, but at least some). Since the whole point of the last patch was to increase racial differentiation, I’m more in favour of the latter.

    (Incidentally, Chryso’s proposal fits into neither category. Inflict Immolation means that, instead of having another option that may or may not be a better choice than tripleshotting Fairy Fire, it’s a straight buff to the regular attack that inflicts a nasty condition which, IIRC, reduces resistance and thus gives Inflict Stun a bigger chance of going off. Inflict Scorching Heat might bring it down to the elven shock bonus level.)

    #114181

    ExNihil
    Member

    We’ve given a few good reasons why the firebomb/stun combination is a nice option to have, but is generally not objectively a better option to use than threeshotting Fairy Fire with three chances to stun the unit you actually want stunned. You’re presenting its popularity as evidence that it’s overpowered. I’m saying that it’s not a popular combination because it’s OP, it’s a popular combination because draconian apprentices have a shiny and other race’s apprentices don’t. And that’s going to be the case regardless of what that shiny is unless it gets nerfed down to the point of being roughly equivalent to the elven +1 to shock channels… at which point, the racial distinction is gone.

    I dont mean to offend you, but you are absolutely wrong. I suggest you read AbedNegoJC’s post above in this thread as it is 100% correct. The combination of stun on fire-bomb is overwhelmingly effective – a lot more so then the 3xshots you have calculated. I suggest you read this thread from the beginning as this has already been discussed. There is no SP argument that is going to convince me – i have used this and have been victimized by this in dozens of games, which the AI simply isnt configured to do. I further suggest that you simply converse with a few of the more experienced MP players and ask them for their experiences regarding Draconian Apprentices and why everybody chooses this race/class combination. Since this has already been discussed in this thread from every direction (and you are also welcome to do a search in the Rebalance of Existing Elements thread in which this point was argued in length), if you remain unconvinced my only possibility is to offer to play an MP game with you and demonstrate this point.

    The facts are simple: an AoE attack with stun attack no range and LoS penalties on a unit that can phase is IMBA in the extreme – no other class has anything that comes close to this, especially on a t2 unit.

    #114190

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Even if I was to concede there (and I really think you are still overstating the point), my point still stands: If draconian apprentices get something special and other races do not, then they’re naturally going to be favoured over others. The options are to nerf it into oblivion or to give other races their own toys.

    #114193

    ExNihil
    Member

    I’m all for giving other races their own toys and as I said would love to see Goblin apprentices. The solution to give them inflict immolation is gr8 because it will give them that special flavor, which will give them a distinct advantage, and yet there are other good combinations. For instance – the human priest with daze on gold is a good option, or to take Dwarves who have much better stats and thus more resilient units. Or, if goblins get fixed, simply cheaper units. This will diversify the game, which is always a good thing :). You of course don’t need to concede the point, lets just continue our discussion to other fields. We have yet to come up with a good solution to the Dragon Ancestry IMBA. Also, there is the matter of the racial traits I suggested as compensation for nerfing the Draconians a bit. And ofc any other theme that comes to mind on this subject.

    #114296

    Sadist1
    Member

    1. Elder ancestry is a bug. It should have never worked on spellcasting. It should be the equivalent of the dwarf ability with the difference of being slightly less powerful, but working on ranged attacks and having no heal. If it offers 5 fire damage, it’s way too powerful, should be 3-4.

    2. Apprentices are fine. They cost almost as much as a tier 3 unit, while being extremely fragile, thus ensuring a player won’t be able to “rush” 2 stacks of apprentices at the same time as rushing the stun tech, which is very expensive. It’s balanced in the context of multiplayer games. Come to think of it, I’ve yet to see an apprentice being made in my last..oh 20 games?

    Actually as a draconian player, I don’t even like having firebomb, since it made apprentices way too expensive for what they offer in the early game.

    That’s as far as Drac sorcerer goes.

    #114304

    ExNihil
    Member

    2. Apprentices are fine. They cost almost as much as a tier 3 unit, while being extremely fragile, thus ensuring a player won’t be able to “rush” 2 stacks of apprentices at the same time as rushing the stun tech, which is very expensive. It’s balanced in the context of multiplayer games. Come to think of it, I’ve yet to see an apprentice being made in my last..oh 20 games?

    In our last game together there were four stacks of apprentices coming your way when you surrendered. It was turn 40 or so. Apprentices do not cost like a t3 – I invite you to check to the numbers before writing stuff down – or read the entire thread as I already say so: they cost 20 production units more.

    1. Elder ancestry is a bug. It should have never worked on spellcasting. It should be the equivalent of the dwarf ability with the difference of being slightly less powerful, but working on ranged attacks and having no heal. If it offers 5 fire damage, it’s way too powerful, should be 3-4.

    I agree, it does offer 5 fire damage, +100morale and +40% fire protection. It is way more powerful then the Dwarf buff which works on melee alone but gives some heal. I do now think it was supposed to be a weaker version of the dwarf ability though – it was obviously meant to be stronger combat wise but with heal.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #114315

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Ancestry is supposed to be more powerful, as a pure buff, then Guarded by Flames – this is balanced by Guarded by Flames offering a heal (which can be used strategically as well as tactically) and being able to be used on anyone rather than one race exclusively. Plus, the dwarf Forge Priest is a better unit stat-wise than the Elder.

    #114322

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ancestry is supposed to be more powerful, as a pure buff, then Guarded by Flames – this is balanced by Guarded by Flames offering a heal (which can be used strategically as well as tactically) and being able to be used on anyone rather than one race exclusively. Plus, the dwarf Forge Priest is a better unit stat-wise than the Elder.

    Yes, exactly. But, Ancestry is still too strong.

    My proposal is this: +3 or +4 ranged and +5 or +4 melee damage, +40% fire protection and high morale or +1def

    #114493

    jakjak
    Member

    I like flamers just fine they were about when trebuchets stopped being everywhere and they are squishy though stunning and draconian ancestry on fire bombs can be silly draconian ancestry is rediculously OP on heros for sure otherwise I think elders are ok in comparison to forge priests immolation for apprentices

    #114699

    ExNihil
    Member

    So what are you saying exactly?

    #114743

    jakjak
    Member

    I think apprentices with fire bomb that have draconian ancestry and school of enchantmet are overpowered (inflict immolation being a good substitute) however the draconnian race itself I dont think needs cuts except for in the way that draconian ancestry applies to heros I am ok with it as a higher buff than gaurdian flame because of the forge priest being better overall. game wide damage immunity in my opinion needs to be reworked
    So 1-Everyone just about agrees that draconian ancestry needs a little rebalancing it needs to be a static buff and perhaps not apply to spells
    2- Draconian flamers are quite good but they are easy to kill and provide hard counters for a few different annoying tactics and units such as trebuchets which I think improves over all game balance I would think that other races should have more stuff rather than weaken flame bomb if something needs to happen here id just take away some hp or perhaps lower damage slightly

    #114774

    Sadist1
    Member

    In our last game together there were four stacks of apprentices coming your way when you surrendered. It was turn 40 or so. Apprentices do not cost like a t3 – I invite you to check to the numbers before writing stuff down – or read the entire thread as I already say so: they cost 20 production units more.

    Unfortunately that says nothing for balance, since the fight never happened and the game occurred under a particular set of circumstances. Given that a sorceror is completely unhindered in unit production for 40 turns, you could have also, for example rushed tier 3 production and produced 2 stacks of firstborn or flyers instead.

    I will concede this point, but not because of what you wrote. I actually did not take into account that apprentices have tier 2 upkeep, which is what really matters for the ability to make mass stacks of a unit. Even with 3-4 cities you can’t really support 2-3 stacks of tier 3 units, while you can support that many apprentices. This allows for much quicker reinforcements and contributes to their advantage.

    Maybe it’s overpowered in the context of elders buffing apprentices to add 5 AOE fire damage, but that’s a problem of the elder ancestry and not the draconian apprentice itself.

    Also keep in mind that going for the stun research as well as apprentice spam is a huge investment for a sorceror (provided there is some pressure on the map). It delays horror research considerably as well as remove a lot of mana from the pool available for summons.

    One issue that I WILL consider as OP in most circumstances is the ability to fire bomb after phasing. This is unique to the draconian apprentice, and, with stun researched as well – is potentially OP in city sieges.

    In this case though, I think I’d rather wait until developer present patch notes for the next big balance patch and see what they have done with it. Perhaps the solution is as simple as removing fire bomb from them and putting them in line with all the other apprentices like they were back in 1.0

    #114810

    ExNihil
    Member

    In this case though, I think I’d rather wait until developer present patch notes for the next big balance patch and see what they have done with it. Perhaps the solution is as simple as removing fire bomb from them and putting them in line with all the other apprentices like they were back in 1.0

    If that is the case why post at all? The idea here is to discuss these things as the patch is still in flux – i asked sikbok yesterday and he told me changes r still introduced. As you will see if you read this thread a good solution has been proposed IMO. Replace Firebomb with inflict immolation.

    #114811

    ExNihil
    Member

    2- Draconian flamers are quite good but they are easy to kill and provide hard counters for a few different annoying tactics and units such as trebuchets which I think improves over all game balance I would think that other races should have more stuff rather than weaken flame bomb if something needs to happen here id just take away some hp or perhaps lower damage slightly

    They r not harder to kill then other t1 archers. The problem with firebomb is that it has no LoS and no Ranged and as @sadist1 pointed out can fire on red. One of the penalties needs to return IMO for a minimum level of balance.

    #115661

    shifted
    Member

    Dragon Ancestry is an innocent bystander. There are 6 classes and IMO it’s only overpowered on Draconinan Sorcerer. Make it not work on spells, and find a way to take Draconian Apprentices down a notch, and Dragon Ancestry is no longer a problem.

    I kinda like the Immolation idea. Unless they can specifically lower the chance to stun on Firebomb, then giving them Immolation instead may be the best option. Honestly, Dragon Ancestry on Draconian Apprentices is really fun though. It’s just the Phase+Stun that puts it a bit into unfair territory =(

    Just lower or remove stun from Firebomb!

    #115678

    Sadist1
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Sadist1 wrote:</div>
    In this case though, I think I’d rather wait until developer present patch notes for the next big balance patch and see what they have done with it. Perhaps the solution is as simple as removing fire bomb from them and putting them in line with all the other apprentices like they were back in 1.0

    If that is the case why post at all? The idea here is to discuss these things as the patch is still in flux – i asked sikbok yesterday and he told me changes r still introduced. As you will see if you read this thread a good solution has been proposed IMO. Replace Firebomb with inflict immolation.

    If that reduces the cost back in line with the other races, then I’m all for it. I was never a fan (in fact I hated it) of the firebomb/cost change.

    Dragon Ancestry is an innocent bystander. There are 6 classes and IMO it’s only overpowered on Draconinan Sorcerer.

    It’s actually overpowered on any class except warlord (who is unlikely to get more than 30 casting points until midgame), based on their specialization. Having a cheap spammable spell like vengeful frost or suffocate with 5 free fire damage is extremely potent.

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