Draconian Hatchling evolve ability

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Draconian Hatchling evolve ability

This topic contains 33 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  Draxynnic 6 years ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 34 total)
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  • #52913

    Joni
    Member

    Maybe it is just me, but the hatchling evolve ability appears to be quite underwhelming and unfun while it was one of my favourite units/aspects in AoW:SM. Here’s why:

    1) You need to earn twice as many medals in order for it to evolve. So its more difficult, and should be more rewarding.

    2) The evolve is random, which isn’t bad per se. The thing that bothers me the most is that you do not seem to get anything special for your (considerable) efforts of keeping the hatchlings alive to reach elite status. They might just evolve into another tier-1 unit that would cost 20 gold more than the hatchling. Yay. This could actually be a downgrade since they apparently lose all their medals when transforming into another unit. I’d probably rather have a gold medal ranged fighter than a recruit crusher/charger.

    So what I am suggesting is to change the evolve into..maybe a wyvern? At the very least, it should be a tier 2 unit, and I strongly suggest it to be something slightly “special” that you would not normally get otherwise. Maybe I was using a mod in AoW:SM – can’t remember right now – so this might not have been in the vanilla game, but it was very fun to slowly turn your baby hatchling into a young dragon, and possibly into a fully grown dragon late game. Now the latter might be unbalanced (which could be fixed by having a very long experience points bar), but I do not see any problem with the first.

    Thoughts?

    #52920

    b0rsuk
    Member

    It really does sound boring. By the time you can evolve hatchlings your cities probably have grown enough to pump a t1 unit each turn.

    I think they should either evolve into a t2 unit, or keep experience, or gain a special ability which only can be gotten from hatchlings.

    I wonder how does it work with Warlord’s superpower ? Units start with max experience level. Do you get a random t1 unit for the price of an irregular ? And with experience level reduced to minimum ?!

    My beef with elaborate growth systems like hatchling > baby dragon > dragon is that it puts emphasis on babysitting units… to much. Fantasy strategy games frequently go overboard with this, to the point where keeping a small number of units or heroes is the winning strategy – every time. Ironically, even goblins in AoW III promote keeping units alive instead of the usual ‘disposable units’ approach. You don’t get the benefit of low upkeep until you level up your goblins.

    #52921

    I actually came here to post a suggestion – I think the hatchling should evolve into a new unit, not a wyvern but maybe an entirely new unit called like a Draconian Wurm or some such – it’s the same as a hatchling but looks a bit different, has slightly better health and defense/resistance, and maybe it’s spit attack gets +2 damage.

    I know at some point you might be able to produce a unit to start with a gold medal (or so it seemed from Kailvin’s video?) and if that’s the case maybe my idea won’t work since you could be producing the advanced Wurm form for very cheap. But maybe the gold medal still goes away when you produce the Wurm and the Wurm itself had a new medal progression? Something like that?

    #52925

    Joni
    Member

    Yes a completely new unit would be my favourite as well, but looking at the impending release date I thought that evolving into a wyvern might be more realistic for now.

    #52931

    vota dc
    Member

    Keeping the medal when they evolve wouldn’t make the unit OP.

    #52933

    Rhaeg
    Member

    I’d also like them to keep their medal or maybe evolve in to a tier 2 with a medal that is one below gold.

    #52948

    jakjak
    Member

    I think that the easiest way would be just to give the new unit permanent dragon ancestry that way you don’t have to write anymore code or I suppose you could use something like inflict scorching heat ect but I agree it would be both more fun and not as pointless if it turned into a wyvern or a new unit or even if some units were just added to the list of units it could turn into

    Do we know for sure if the warlord spell that gives medals evolves them? Im curious as to how that work if you recast it does it now give you those units ranked up?

    #52962

    Tibbles
    Member

    I actually came here to post a suggestion – I think the hatchling should evolve into a new unit, not a wyvern but maybe an entirely new unit called like a Draconian Wurm or some such – it’s the same as a hatchling but looks a bit different, has slightly better health and defense/resistance, and maybe it’s spit attack gets +2 damage.

    I know at some point you might be able to produce a unit to start with a gold medal (or so it seemed from Kailvin’s video?) and if that’s the case maybe my idea won’t work since you could be producing the advanced Wurm form for very cheap. But maybe the gold medal still goes away when you produce the Wurm and the Wurm itself had a new medal progression? Something like that?

    Kind of like the Wurm idea 😛 Some kind of burrowing unit could be cool I think (tricky on water though)
    Might be nice for an expansion

    Attachments:
    #52989

    I think the best “for now” fix is just keeping the exp .. maybe lose a single medal (gold>silver) instead of (gold>nothing) lol

    I talked about it in my How to Play series. Basically you have a 1 in 4 chance to evolve up a tier … thats the only good that comes out of the hatchling evolve.

    It sucks butt when your hactchlings evolve into the melee crushers or chargers, because you only use a hatchling for ranged damage. That change means your now down a ranged unit in your army stack.

    I prefer how initiates always evolve into storm sisters. However they need to get a further 30 exp to achieve gold rank.

    #52995

    I would think a good “fix” would be to always have them evolve into Elders, to maintain the range role you already use them for (as you iHunterKiller mentions). Possibly with the the tin medal, too. Eh, there are lots of ways they could improve, the important thing is we all agree, hatchlings as they are now are a bit hindered by evolve, which I suspect is NOT the intention.

    #53141

    Sethfcm
    Member

    Indeed, I would like it if they evolved into either unique units as suggested, kept their medal

    Or gaining a unique trait or two, i.e a hatchling evolves into a crusher, but retains a fire breath and draconic ancestry or gains flight etc. just some sort of semi unique bonus for having stayed alive so long and evolved.

    Edit: I really just want to have a reason to keep a stack of pet hatchlings and end up with a really cool army if I’m ultra careful. To counter the warlords global effect just make them need one more tier of xp or simply more so that they can’t emerge already evolved.

    #58455

    Erasus
    Member

    Anyone with some infos about a patch? I like the Hatchlings… it would be sad to see them being so useless….

    #58465

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Yeah I’m inclined to agree with that.

    Sometimes you get the melee Draconian unit, which sucks considering the amount of effort that you made and the hatchling cost.

    I think that it should be that only T2 units are available to evolve or as suggested, another unique unit.

    Another option is for you to “choose” what you want when it reaches the evolve status.

    #58478

    Erasus
    Member

    I like the idea of a random factor. Like 75% chance of getting something good (T2 Unit, T1 with Gold Medal…) and 25% of something worse.

    #58490

    selageth
    Member

    It should never be “worse”, maybe “not as good as”, but not worse off than the hatchling you started with.

    #58496

    CrazyElf
    Member

    It should never be “worse”, maybe “not as good as”, but not worse off than the hatchling you started with.

    It does suck when your Hatchling evolves into a lowly Crusher – especially when it took so much effort to level it up.

    #58499

    selageth
    Member

    Dunno. I don’t know the units stats (and I avoid specific information as I want to be surprised tomorrow :D). Nevertheless, after reading this thread I think that the evolve ability should level-up the hatchling to a T2 unit. It’d be a minor change that would make the ability worthwhile.

    #102860

    DadouXIII
    Member

    The Evolve ability of hatchlings is indeed incredibly week and disappointing…
    I did not feel rewarded when my first hatchling evolved into a Crusher, and without any medals at that.

    Here are my suggestions:
    1- Make them keep their gold medal
    2- Make them evolve into a unique unit unobtainable any other way

    #102861

    wingren013
    Member

    What about having them evolve into a special version of the unit with fire spit and all the hatchlings medal rewards factored into base stats you wouldn’t even need to change models just add a glow effect.

    Example: Champion Crusher: A Crusher that spent its hatchling hood fighting, these rare warriors retain their ability to spit fire as well as an inner flame that lends their attacks a burning heat.

    Statwise a Crusher with fire spit, +1 fire mdmg, and normal crusher medal progression. Would give extra incentive to keep hatchlings alive as well as make the resulting unit more special.

    #102872

    Thor80
    Member

    This random evolve ability makes the hatchling special.
    Maybe it would be better if the random unit is a t2, I think there is already one in the list.
    One could be a unit with the all abilities and values from the gold hatchling as a recruit special t1 unit that cannot be build.
    Anotherone maybe a firewyvern or a glider.
    Or a unit that will be able to evolve into a Doom Dragon…

    #102882

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    I would think a good “fix” would be to always have them evolve into Elders, to maintain the range role you already use them for (as you iHunterKiller mentions). Possibly with the the tin medal, too. Eh, there are lots of ways they could improve, the important thing is we all agree, hatchlings as they are now are a bit hindered by evolve, which I suspect is NOT the intention.

    This is what I have been thinking as well.
    Advantages are:
    Evolving unit becomes better. (imo the main reason to evolve)
    Unit keeps range abilities. (improved version)
    Easy to implement.
    Downsides are:
    Hatchling becomes more similar to Initiate. (instead of being special)
    Lorewise, a transition from Hatchling to Elder may seem like skipping a step.
    (then again, this is already one of the possibilities)

    I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, no medal needed for the newly evolved Elder.

    As for the Warlord ultimate spell:
    Yes, all your Hatchlings (and other units with Evolve ability) will have gold medal. To evolve, however, they need to participate in a battle first.

    #102892

    Draxynnic
    Member

    To be honest, I’ve thought of evolve as being a downside all along. Advantage: They’re (currently) the only irregular with a fire attack and one of three with a non-physical attack – and blight is commonly resisted, while Initiates also evolve (evolving to Storm Sisters is more guaranteed to be an upgrade, but there are still times when an irregular might be more useful).

    To give them a possible upgrade that preserves their role, I point out the AoW2 Slither. Simplest option to buff it, though, might be to make Flyers a possible upgrade. That way, while evolve will usually just give you a different tier 1, there is the chance of getting a big payoff.

    #102895

    vfxrob
    Member

    il jump on the wagon, its works for things like baby krakens but overall for the hatchlings , scoundrel and martyr they serve a particular purpose. a new creature could be cool, and a scoundrel with assasinate wouuld be cool, and an matur who stays as resurge is beyond useful!

    #102899

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The thing is, a lot of the evolves are done by flavour rather than for pure power purposes. Scoundrels evolve into assassins because that research (which is optional…) essentially reflects scoundrels being apprentice assassins, and thus they get the promotion… and expect a new wave of apprentices to do their old jobs. Martyrs promote because that’s their reward for martyrdom. Hatchlings evolve because, lorewise, all of the draconians come from hatchlings, and evolve reflects that – which is why I suggested adding flyers to the list (although there may be an explanation we don’t know as to why they aren’t – maybe flyers are promoted through some ritual, or flyer hatchlings are recognisable and considered too valuable to use as child soldiers) – it’d be a bit strange if they instead evolved into something completely different.

    Bottom line is that apart from pure upgrades like “Baby X -> X”, I think evolve abilities are deliberately intended to be a bit of a double-edged sword. Sometimes you’ll get what is at best a sidegrade, or you’ll lose an ability at an inopportune time. Managing these risks is part of managing your armies.

    #245248

    I agree with what most of you say I think it would be best if Hatchling’s evolve into any unit but keep the ability they have as Hatchling with maybe bronze medal but also still has evolve so it can evolve again into a higher tier but this time at silver and inherits the ability it possessed in all previous evolution’s that way each one is unique and makes the leveling up worth it.

    I would also say add a view unique units that they have a low chance to evolve into that are more powerful then the other units.

    This way you get stronger units and evolve is worth it and sticks to the lore, I was very disappointed when I found out about hatchlings evolution is not worth anything.

    Another way is giving the evolved units unique states based on what terrain they were in when they evolve e.g. Frost is no longer a weakness if evolve in arctic terrain and can cause frost damage.

    though I think the first option is the best and worth it, the evolution has so much potential why not use it 🙂

    #245518

    Crivvens
    Member

    +1 to the evolved units getting a special bonus from being evolved, even if it’s just keeping the fire spit or +1 to a couple of stats. Makes lore sense too, since a hatchling who grew up fighting every day is going to be a bit tougher than someone trained in a comfy city.

    #245519

    Gloweye
    Member

    +1 to the evolved units getting a special bonus from being evolved, even if it’s just keeping the fire spit or +1 to a couple of stats. Makes lore sense too, since a hatchling who grew up fighting every day is going to be a bit tougher than someone trained in a comfy city.

    You can preserve one ability when evolving – there’s one slot. Or make a group ability.

    For example, there’s Evolved Exalted retaining Absorb Pain currently, which works this way.

    It’s quite easy to make a mod that does this.

    #245633

    driveby
    Member

    Evolve is a bad trait that that, at least in the case of the draconian hatchling, can give you an inferior reward comparing to a gold medal tier 1.

    This was *mostly* true in AoW2:SM except for in that title you at least had the opportunity to acquire a t4 dragon from recruited wyrms out of the convoluted and tedious process. Even then I wouldn’t say that pursuing evolve was a strategically viable tactic but it was somewhat more doable due to the existence of unit enchants on the strategic map rather than only existing during combat.

    Even if the resultant evolved unit is powerful; pursuing evolve is not be a wise/viable tactic due to the time & investment required in raising any particular unit to gold. By the time you can build irregulars at rank 2/4 you have better things to build and trying to preserve an irregular kind of defeats the usual disposability.

    At present the druidic serpents come closest to making evolve useful. But, even then, its just a *quaint* skill that strictly exists in matches vs the AI where you can take your sweet time racking up neutral combats doing as you please.

    Evolve is, unfortunately, flawed in concept. But we could at least make it better than terrible. In the case of the hatchling, t1 evolving into t1 is downright stupid. Maybe we’re considering irregulars tier 0? I don’t know. To me: crushers & hatchlings are both 4 upkeep units w/ similar quality levels.

    How to fix evolve? For starters all evolved units should start out AT LEAST rank 1/4 instead of rank 0. This is obvious. I might go so far as rank 2 but that really depends on how many other suggested buffs were implemented. In the case of the hatchlings: tier 2 & 3 evolution results ONLY. Where does the raptor come from on evolution? Who cares? MAGIC. Allow the unit to retain the fire spit & at least 1 level of +ranged. The fire spit skill wouldn’t be as relevant for the Elder but it has its tactical value (a larger ranged attack when down to 1 remaining movement point) & an extra level or two of ranged bonus would be valued.

    With the existence of the strategic map city upgrades its not as though an evolved Draconian Charger w/ fire spit & +1-2 ranged is a great deal more valuable than a Draconian Charger built from a city with a rider’s hall & stables of vigor. Evolve is tedious & awkward to utilize. The reward needs be on the strong side.

    • This reply was modified 6 years ago by  driveby.
    #245642

    Gloweye
    Member

    With the existence of the strategic map city upgrades its not as though an evolved Draconian Charger w/ fire spit & +1-2 ranged is a great deal more valuable than a Draconian Charger built from a city with a rider’s hall & stables of vigor. Evolve is tedious & awkward to utilize. The reward needs be on the strong side.

    You confused the rider and the charger here?

    Evolve isn’t always strong. I admit freely the Hatchling is probably the weakest evolver among the bunch.

    To make it useful, I think just keeping Fire Spit would be more than sufficient. A crusher with it is much stronger than a Hatchling, and therefore worth if you ask me. Chargers are stronger already(but it won’t hurt), and Flamers will have something to do if they end up in melee. It’s less important for the T2’s, but as with teh Charger, it still doesn’t hurt.

    However, I think it’s spot on in power on the other units. Sure, you hear little people building Initiates to evolve them, but Storm Sisters are still a very nice upgrade. Scoundrels/Martyrs have both had their times when they were abused in PBEM, or even live MP, and I still believe they’re strong. (which includes their upgrades – Lesser Stalker remains kind of an irregular while being pretty much the best tank you’ll have at the time, and Absorb Pain Exalted are just….powerful. I mean, Absorb Pain and Resurgence, even aside from being T3 fliers with resurgence.)

    For the druid, I think both the Serpents and the Spiders are more than worth evolving. Adult Spiders are powerful units for a pretty long time in the game, and are far from worthless even when you’re up against T4’s. Serpents of course, potentially get T4, even tho it takes a bit longer. (and they’re harder to evolve, since spiders have web.)

    #245658

    LordCameron
    Member

    Easy enough to create and test.

    I’m leaning towards a raptor unit currently, though I think the random evolution is part of the charm, so keeping firespit is a more elegant solution.

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