Draconian Raptors

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Draconian Raptors

This topic contains 57 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 7 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 58 total)
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  • #217882

    Anublet90
    Member

    Seriously, what’s the deal with these dudes? I’ve been maining Draconians since release and I’ve never found a use for these guys. They have no specialties outside of the Fire channel, but even that is in a race where lots of people have it.

    They have no Sprint, Phase, Armoured, Polearm or anything of the sort (good, because those already exist), which just confuses me as to why I should build them. Chargers at least are a solid build nowadays, but these dudes…

    Meh.

    #217889

    NINJEW
    Member

    raptors are pretty good right now actually. they’re cavalry with a decent dual channel attack, which makes them useful at hitting flanks and cutting down weaker targets (the two main jobs of cavalry)

    them and elders are also the only draconian units that won’t drop like flies in autocombat

    strategically, being cav they’re very mobile, which can be very useful

    i dunno man they’re a standard cavalry unit, only draconian. the dual channel damage certainly makes them better than boar riders or wargs or most other racial cavalry that aren’t straight up amazing. they aren’t flashy but they do their job the best amongst the nonflashy cav

    #217892

    Ultimatum
    Member

    Humans have the best cavalry,they evolve too.

    #217896

    Medic-Tank
    Member

    Draconian raptors fill a VERY nice nice for a necromancer. Fire resistant ghouls is always a plus but in this case they also bring decent fire damage to the table. They are also prime targets for dangerous runs as they can be affected by lesser reanimate. Those things can give an edge in a necromancer battle.

    #217898

    Raptors are the only dual dmg channel cav in the game (triple channel with rogue class or even quadruple with the right hero) and even better flankers and can be useful vs. units with physical protection. Other than that they’re just really solid and scorching heat ain’t bad.

    #217902

    Fenraellis
    Member

    (triple channel with rogue class or even quadruple with the right hero)

    Or pentuple with the right hero(sorc/theo) and good/evil specialization!

    #217910

    Humans have the best cavalry,they evolve too.

    Well, it’s always been in the human lore them having good cavalry.

    #217915

    Anublet90
    Member

    them and elders are also the only draconian units that won’t drop like flies in autocombat

    This is somewhat what I had in mind when I posted this. My experience has been the exact opposite, that if anyone dies it’s these fellas. Does the lack of Armored have big of an impact?

    As for being the only Cavalry with a dual-channel, I hadn’t actually noticed that. That’s neat I guess, does it make much of a difference in total damage dealt?

    #217918

    ExNihil
    Member

    Does the lack of Armored have big of an impact?

    Thats actually a positive in terms of unit survivability – armored makes the unit vul. to AP, and the defense rating is actually determined externally. OFC, lack of armored makes this unit less attractive for DN, but that is beside the point.

    Raptors are not very good because they are squishy – their dual-channel is excellent, but their survivability is low, so using them as front-line unit is more problematic then most other units. They also don’t phase, or move esp. well on the battlefield, so weirdly this is not a unit that fits very much amassed tactics, and is more fitting to be auxiliary. With lesser flying and regrowth, Chargers are now the spammable Draconian unit, and move in any esp.

    Perhaps this unit could receive another ability at baseline, it seems it doesn’t already have too many abilities as is.

    #217920

    NINJEW
    Member

    This is somewhat what I had in mind when I posted this. My experience has been the exact opposite, that if anyone dies it’s these fellas. Does the lack of Armored have big of an impact?

    As for being the only Cavalry with a dual-channel, I hadn’t actually noticed that. That’s neat I guess, does it make much of a difference in total damage dealt?

    i dunno what’s going onw ith you, but funny enough they’re definitely the least suicidal melee troop. chargers and fliers will fly right into the middle fo the enemy in autocombat and get gangstabbed, while crushers just don’t have to hp to last very long. hatchlings are an irregular, so they’re a bit of a lost cause.

    raptors have enough hp to survive, enough damage output to kill whatever they fight, and don’t fly, so they’ll make suicidal runs into the front of the enemy formation, instead of the back of the enemy formation.

    in general though, while raptors have more consistency than other other draconian unit, they still drop in auto pretty damn fast, and it only works if you have 3 or 4 other raptors in the stack anyway (they all suicide charge forward at the exact same time, so it’s harder for the AI to dogpile one of them).

    this is one of the bigger weaknesses of draconians, imo. they clear horrifically poorly, their units just keep on dying nonstop.

    #217929

    ExNihil
    Member

    With RG2 and regrowth chargers don’t die as quickly and are much easier to spam. They are also very useful on manual combat. Strength of Draconians is in regen, to creep you need to pick.sites more carefully, avoid pikes as much as possible and shift your can. in and out of stacks as per the defender composition. Same as Tigrans.

    #217936

    NINJEW
    Member

    sounds like a good halfling evolve strat, only still with more units dying 😛

    #217941

    ExNihil
    Member

    Yup, its inelegant but that’s what can be done. This is part of the reason why I think Draconians need.something extra – in Vanilla they were unique in having a racial sustain perk, but with the changes to other races that gave these sustain perish, they became less advantageous in comparison. Orcs esp. used to be a crappy race.

    #217963

    Khelle
    Member

    lack of armored makes this unit less attractive for DN, but that is beside the point.

    Not counting MCU that affects armored units, which is frequent and have nice bonuses. Raptors are one of the reasons I don’t play draconians.

    #217968

    NINJEW
    Member

    isn’t rg2 like a turn 20 thing? that’s not going to come in handy for clearing.

    raptor-heavy stacks backed up by a couple elders is the most reliable you’ll get with draconians. definitely the biggest barrier to playing them for me, and pretty much any time anyone else i know tries a nonsorc strategy with them, it’s the same thing that kills attempting to develop the strat further.

    #217978

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    Seriously, what’s the deal with these dudes? I’ve been maining Draconians since release and I’ve never found a use for these guys. They have no specialties outside of the Fire channel, but even that is in a race where lots of people have it.

    They have no Sprint, Phase, Armoured, Polearm or anything of the sort (good, because those already exist), which just confuses me as to why I should build them. Chargers at least are a solid build nowadays, but these dudes…

    Meh.

    They are solid cavalry. Fast and deal good damage, and when they level up they gain more HP than spearmen, as far as I remember. Yes they are nothing special, but on later levels they can burn enemies and they do fire damage as well as resist it – I found them to be very useful in my Dreadnougt armies, especially with Sidearms.

    Not every race’s Cavalry needs to be as special as Tigran Sun Chariots, or as terribly strong as Frostling Mammoth Riders. There isn’t much special about Human or Goblin Cavalry either. If we really want, maybe we could add “predator” to cavalry that rides carnivores, like the Wolf Riders, Raptors and Sun Chariots.

    I agree that with lesser flying, now Chargers are more mobile than cavalry and better for flanking – IMHO maybe they should make them higher tier. However, even with first strike and anti-cavalry, Chargers can more easily be killed than raptors.

    #217980

    Wallthing
    Member

    The only bit I don’t like about raptors is that they are Draconians’ only “normal” defense melee unit… and I guess that maybe Sun Guards seem too common at the moment. They’re pretty decent cavalry.

    #217983

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    DN, MCU… you guys sound like I’m at work on business meetings and using acronyms for documents… 😀

    isn’t rg2 like a turn 20 thing? that’s not going to come in handy for clearing.

    raptor-heavy stacks backed up by a couple elders is the most reliable you’ll get with draconians. definitely the biggest barrier to playing them for me, and pretty much any time anyone else i know tries a nonsorc strategy with them, it’s the same thing that kills attempting to develop the strat further.

    Stacks of the same unit is never a good idea. Mix and match, try to have at least one healer/support, one archer, one pikeman, and hopefully a flyer in every group. That way you are mostly ready for any neutral armies or single-stacks. If the enemy brings larger armies you’ll counter them with larger armies, anyway.

    And who uses autocombat for big battles? That’s a recipe for disaster. I don’t like using Champion-level units. I only use it against squishy neutrals, but even so I opt for Tactical more often so I can choose which of my units gets the XP.

    #217989

    NINJEW
    Member

    There isn’t much special about Human or Goblin Cavalry either.

    human cav evolve into knights, making them actually the best t2 cav (it helps that they’re also fairly tanky). warg riders have overwhelm, which is kinda neat.

    #217992

    NINJEW
    Member

    Stacks of the same unit is never a good idea. Mix and match, try to have at least one healer/support, one archer, one pikeman, and hopefully a flyer in every group. That way you are mostly ready for any neutral armies or single-stacks. If the enemy brings larger armies you’ll counter them with larger armies, anyway.

    not when clearing! autocombat favors same unit stacks a lot, because the AI doesn’t consider group strategies very much. so a bunch of units that all actin the same way is the closest you can get.

    And who uses autocombat for big battles? That’s a recipe for disaster. I don’t like using Champion-level units. I only use it against squishy neutrals, but even so I opt for Tactical more often so I can choose which of my units gets the XP.

    in live multiplayer the standard is for everyone to use autocombat at all times when fighting the AI, because it’s simply the only sane way of being able to see a game through to the end. so things like units dying in auto become very important, because you need to auto to clear out gold mines and rock quarries and other such things.

    #217995

    Wallthing
    Member

    Stacks of the same unit is never a good idea. Mix and match, try to have at least one healer/support, one archer, one pikeman, and hopefully a flyer in every group. That way you are mostly ready for any neutral armies or single-stacks. If the enemy brings larger armies you’ll counter them with larger armies, anyway.

    not when clearing! autocombat favors same unit stacks a lot, because the AI doesn’t consider group strategies very much. so a bunch of units that all actin the same way is the closest you can get.

    Stack homogeneity can be really important for mobility too. A stack of Stables of Vigor cavalry or 3 Tigran + 3 other shamans is pretty sexy. Not to mention fliers.

    #217999

    ExNihil
    Member

    Perhaps Raptors could become armored? This would make them more attractive to DN and also justify a +1 increase in their def.

    Alternatively if charges are upgraded to t2, increased price, production at war hall, but with +4 MP, t2 level scaling, an extra ability and increased base stats this race will be more attractive, and Raptots, by and by, will have increased survivability when paired with Chargers.

    #218012

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    I’d not upgrade them – the Charger is already much better than many other Tier I pikemen, why should the Draconians get a cavalry that is this powerful?
    Maybe on Gold Medal raptors could get, I dunno… a once-per-battle flame breath? Something that’s not game-breaking.

    Stacks of the same unit is never a good idea. Mix and match, try to have at least one healer/support, one archer, one pikeman, and hopefully a flyer in every group. That way you are mostly ready for any neutral armies or single-stacks. If the enemy brings larger armies you’ll counter them with larger armies, anyway.

    not when clearing! autocombat favors same unit stacks a lot, because the AI doesn’t consider group strategies very much. so a bunch of units that all actin the same way is the closest you can get.

    And who uses autocombat for big battles? That’s a recipe for disaster. I don’t like using Champion-level units. I only use it against squishy neutrals, but even so I opt for Tactical more often so I can choose which of my units gets the XP.

    in live multiplayer the standard is for everyone to use autocombat at all times when fighting the AI, because it’s simply the only sane way of being able to see a game through to the end. so things like units dying in auto become very important, because you need to auto to clear out gold mines and rock quarries and other such things.

    Really? That must be very boring. I love the tactical battles, for me that is the “cream” of the AoW games, in contrast to most TBSs here the maps are large and full of interesting obstacles. I played HOMMIII/IV in multiplayer a lot and it was never a problem with the other player that we did the AI battles manually.

    #218026

    ExNihil
    Member

    Its not boring at all, the center is PvP manual combat. If everybody manually cleared the game will stretch for days on end.

    I followed on the proposal to upgrade the Charger to t2, which will enable buffing it up and give this race some advantage in clearing.

    #218031

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    To each his own… I dunno – in most TBS games I played against humans, the manual combat usually happens once or twice, after which one sides loses too much to ever be able to challenge the other player, and we usually quit the game as it would be no fun to the loser.
    Rather, we liked to play games where we either play together against an AI with much larger forces, or against each other while trying to avoid the overwhelming AI hunting us both. 🙂

    Back on Raptors, how do you feel that we could add “Predator” to them? Maybe “Bloodthirsty” on higher medals, since they are carnivorus giant raptors and the humans say Draconians use no horses since they ate them. 🙂

    #218038

    ExNihil
    Member

    That fits well, but both are Tigran racial traits and I think there is little chance they’ll be implemented on Draconian units.

    #218039

    I honestly don’t see what’s so bad about Raptors.
    null
    null

    #218045

    ExNihil
    Member

    Human Cavalry have evolve. The crappy ones are Halfling and Dwarf, both of which are pretty barebone (Halfling gets strong will at gold so thats something). Raptors are Okish and have dual channel damage but are not special really and die badly on auto. Orc, HE, Frostling and Tigran are more interesting. So, there is nothing wrong with this unit, except that it offers a rather poor choice for classes that focus on cavalry strategies often. Other players don’t really have a reason to build it in large numbers if at all, and can focus on charger instead. The result is the Draconians have a good t1 pike unit and an excellent t3 infantry unit, alongside a powerful support unit. I would just like to see something more interesting here, perhaps opening up some sort of unit synergy.

    #218056

    NINJEW
    Member

    Really? That must be very boring. I love the tactical battles, for me that is the “cream” of the AoW games, in contrast to most TBSs here the maps are large and full of interesting obstacles. I played HOMMIII/IV in multiplayer a lot and it was never a problem with the other player that we did the AI battles manually.

    nah it’s a lot of fun. there’s quite a bit of depth to the strategic map as well, and playing against a human in tactical battles is way, waaaaay better than fighting the AI.

    #218057

    NINJEW
    Member

    don’t underestimate the ponies

    they’re actually pretty decent. they have high res and are fairly tanky for a halfling unit, which is pretty important if you find yourself playing halfling.

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