[Following] DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions [Following] DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion

This topic contains 261 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by  Kozzie 7 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #116718

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi Guys,

    Time for thread #4 in the Classes threads. The post I am going to make here is based on the discussion that were held in the now defunct Re-balance of Existing Element in Next Patch thread.

    While there is new content in the post for some of you this will be repetitive and it might also look like i’m raising points that have already been discussed at length. Because that thread was so big and contentious I feel that a more focused discussion of each class will be beneficial, and I hope it will also make things easier for anyone (including you Dev Team folks!) who is interested in reading and participating.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #116720

    ExNihil
    Member

    The Dreadnought’s Concept

    “Dreadnoughts work in a world of pulleys, boilers, engines and gears. The Commonwealth esteems their machines because they can automate everyday chores. Their tanks and battleships allow the common man to safely slay monstrous creatures. However, the power of steam doesn’t come without its price, so Dreadnought lords have pioneered new ways of stripping resources from the earth.”

    Class Specific Technologies:

    Unit Summoning and Production: Summon Spy Drone (80RP) –> Produce Engineer (60RP) –> Produce Musketeer (140RP) –> Produce Flame-Tank (400RP) –> Produce Cannon (400RP) -> Produce Golem (750RP) ->Produce Juggernaut (1500RP)
    + Produce Ironclad Warship in seafaring branch

    Unit Upgrade Techs: Solid Engineering (120RP), Structural Insight (200RP), Modern Warfare Training (200RP), Side-Arns (350RP)

    Empire Upgrades: Steam Powered (70RP), Great Blacksmith (120RP), Mana Fuel Factory (700RP)
    City Upgrades: Mana Fuel Cells (60RP / Spell), Dragon Oil (400RP)

    Combat Spells: Flash Bang (60RP), Repair Fortification (60RP), Overload (120RP), Force Field (140RP), Reassemble (180RP), Weapon Kit (180RP), Summon Siege Engine (400RP), Choking Fumes (700RP), Dampening Field (1200RP), Destabilized Mana Core (2000)

    Strategic and Offensive Enchantments: Suppress Nature (220RP), Spelljammer (700RP), Forge Blast (750RP), The Great Mobilization (2500RP)

    Core Strategy:

    The Dreadnought is a powerful class that has extremely strong units in combination with the best production buffs and unit discounts in the game. The Dreadnought techs also open the way for using several different strategies using racial units, which makes the Dreadnought a very varied class. One can either tech up, build horizontally or go for pistol wielding cavalry units – any one of these strategies has merits and long term utility. On the short turn, the Dreadnought is also exceptionally good in rushing – having the cheapest scout in the game in combination to defensive boosts to armored units it can build formidable armies very quickly.

    Current Issues:

    The balancing of Dreadnought units is achieved through the tension between the extreme damage and range of their ranged attacks and the cool-down period between shots (except Flame-Tank!), the tension between the inability of machine units to regenerate and their blight/spirit immunity and reinforcement against physical damage, and the tension between relatively high defense stats (upgrade-able with +1 buff for almost all units) and the low mobility. Albeit the overall effectiveness and cleverness of this scheme there are several issues that arise from it:

    1. The unit type Machine endows a unit with Blight and Spirit Immunity (100% resistance,) the Cannot Regenerate label and the Reinforced trait, which gives -4 physical damage to any attack against that unit. As I have discussed in length in the thread Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat, the Blight and Spirit Immunity of 5 out of the total 7 Dreadnought units makes engagements between races and/or classes that use Blight (Goblins, Orc Support, Arch-Druid and Rogue) and Spirit (Theocrat, Human support) extensively, highly unbalanced in favor of the Dreadnought. I further discuss what I understand to be the lack of conceptual justification for these immunities, please see the following thread for the complete discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/ .

    2. The ability Rapid Reload, which exists on the Engineer at baseline and can also be picked up by Dreadnought Leader/Heroes, is extremely potent as it allows ranged units to bypass the cool-down limitation. This is of course not done without a price – the bypassing of the cool-down is achieved at the expanse of 3 action points, or the entire activity of an engineer/hero within a single combat round. Yet by having no cool-down itself, this ability allows a hero/engineer to effectively “double” a ranged unit in terms of its combat impact. This is less significant when an engineer or hero reloads a musketeer, as the damage potential of this unit, while very powerful, is usually only about 25%-33% bigger than the full x3 attacks of an Elven Longbowman within the same range. Yet, when this ability is applied to Cannons and Juggernauts it gives the Dreadnaught a unique advantage: he/she can do twice the impact of t3/4 ranged attacks but at a substantially lower cost allowing the Dreadnought to reach the combat effectiveness of full t3/4 stacks a lot sooner and at much lower costs then other classes – 3 cannons/juggernauts and 3 engineers have the same firepower of 6 cannons/juggernauts. The relative vulnerability of the engineer (lower def/res/elemental resistances and hp) in comparison to that of the machines it doubles is dramatically offset by the production and research differential between these units.

    3. The Dreadnought’s main weakness is the incapacity of machine units to regenerate, which makes the Repair Machine ability critical as it enables the healing of machines on the battlefield as well as hp regeneration for machine units on the strategic map. This ability can be picked up by the Dreadnought leader/heroes and it also appears as a gold medal perk on the Engineer. There are two issues here, I’ll treat one here and the other in the following clause: Due to the fact that Repair Machine has no-cool down it allows abuse when paired with trebuchets in the early game and cannons in the mid to late mid-game. Trebuchets possess a long range that allows a player to position them in a way that limits the defender to a single archer unit with effective range (in early to early-mid game), while they can hurl stones at the wall and archer units. By being able to heal the trebuchet the Dreadnought thus puts his opponent in a powerless position – no combination of spells and attacks is able to do sufficient damage to counter this strategy, and the only viable defense is other trebuchet units. The same is true of Cannon units with the defensive units being Trebuchets as counters, although this is less acute.

    4. Repair Machine, appears on the Engineer at gold medal. Yet the Engineer is one of the irregular t1 class units that has extremely low survivability in auto-combat, and as such it is almost impossible to level Engineers to gold medal and thus acquire this ability. While this effectively limits the amount of healing the Dreadnought has, it also dramatically decreases the autonomy of its armies, as effective creeping becomes contingent on the presence of a Dreadnought army leader.

    Furthermore, the limitation of healing support has been raised as one of the reasons why the Blight and Spirit Immunity of machines is necessary for balancing. Although I agree with this assertion, I find this balancing mechanism very bad as it makes certain classes and races relatively powerless respective to Dreadnought units. Thus in changing the immunity to Spirit/Blight of Dread machines there is also a need to change the Engineer.

    This brings us to the topic of the Dreadnought’s units, with which I think there are three issues except the above:

    5. The appearance of the Golem as the penultimate research-able unit makes it almost completely superfluous. The abilities of the vast majority of Dreadnought units in conjunction to the current unit research branch creates a very strong bias towards ranged attacks. In practice the Dreadnought can develop its ranged capabilities from the Musketeer to the Cannon at relatively low research costs – 400RP is the average price of the first t3 unit other classes get – and these capabilities are always formidable respective to their unit tier. By the time the Golem is unlocked, Dread armies possess sufficient ranged fire-power to make the production of this substantially more expansive unit (160g/40m) highly unattractive and also quite point-less from a tactical point of view.

    6. There have been several posts before on the subject of the Flame-Tank*, I will do my best to summarize and develop these here, let’s look at the Flame-Tank’s specs:

    Cost: 140g/30m, 16g/turn maint. 60hp, 28mp, 12def [before +1 increase due to tech upgrade], 10res. Ranged Attack – Flame-Throwing 25 fire damage. Abilities: Walking, Explosive Death, Cannot Regenerate, Armored, 100% Blight Resistance, 100% Spirit Resistance, 60% Fire
    Resistance, -20% Shock Resistance.

    Trooper: +1 fire ranged damage, +6hp
    Veteran: +1 fire ranged damage, +1 defense, +6hp
    Expert: +1 fire ranged damage, +1 resistance, +6hp
    Elite: +1 fire ranged damage, +1 defense, +12hp, Inflict Immolation

    The Flame-Tank appears as the first t3 unit of the Dread and is parallel in rubric to Succubus, Node Serpent, Shaman, Phalanx and Evangelist in being the first t3 of its class. Yet in difference to all of these units it has an AoE attack that is substantially stronger than that of a t4 Fire-Dragon – inflicting +5 fire damage and, unlike all other ranged Dread units as well, having no cool-down. This attack effects any target unit that is not 100% Fire resistant within a cone that is five hexes deep and three hexes wide at its center. It also influences city walls like Dragon breath attacks and is in fact devastating in siege war as both an offensive and defensive element, being able to take down walls and defenders or pulverize invading troops.

    The combination of the standard machine Blight and Spirit immunities with a uniquely high fire resistance make the Flame-Tank extremely resilient against most attacks that use the resistance channel, with the only vulnerability being to shock damage – a damage type that is mostly restricted to Elven supports/irregulars and Sorcerer units/spells. One may add here Frost damage, but it is rarely used and when it comes on a unit it is usually accompanied by either no fire resistance or fire weakness, meaning that coming into Melee ranged is usually suicidal (e.g. Shadow Stalker) This also means that using units that are 100% Fire resistant to combat Flame-Tanks is ineffective, as these units usually deal a substantial amount of fire damage themselves. To this should be added the Reinforced perk of machine units, which reduces 4 points from any physical damage incurred – ranged, melee and spell. The result is a machine unit that is almost impossible to kill using most kinds of ranged attacks, and which can pulverize pretty much anything that comes to within melee range as well. Then there is the added attribute of Explosive Death, which means that any unit that manages to kill the flame-tank will be seriously damaged by both physical and fire damage. This last point though is a double-edged sword, as it also prevents Flame-Tanks from being re-assembled.

    Finally there are the issues of price and production conditions: At 170 production units the Flame-Tank costs as much as the average racial t3 unit, a sum that can be reduced twice (-10% x2) by the Dreadnought (Great Blacksmith + Mana Fuel Factory,) making the stacking of this unit extremely easy in comparison to virtually any other t3 unit in the game. Furthermore, in difference to the two other t3 units that unlock through the t2 production building Blast Furnace, the Flame-Tank is unlocked with the t1 production building Dreadnought’s Foundry, which makes the construction of this unit much easier than that of either Racial t3 units or of the equivalent tier units of the Warlord (t2 building) and Rogue (t2 building) – Support t3 units are producible on the t1 building of their respective class.

    7. The Drone currently costs 80RP which is 20RP more than the price of all other t1 researches (60RP).

    Rebalance Suggestions:

    1. I suggest that the Blight and Spirit immunity of the Dreadnought’s Machines will be reduced differentially: Flame-Tank at 40-60% in both channels, Cannon at 40% both Channels, Golem at 40-60% both channels, and Juggernaut with between 80% to full immunity (it is a t4 unit). This will be done while preserving their immunity to the vast majority of Spirit and Blight based effects (poison, mind-control of all sorts, broken spirit and so forth.) In return for the nerf, I suggest to give all Dread Machines +20 Frost Resistance and +20% Fire Resistance (except the Fire-Tank.)

    [EDITING COMMENT: Clauses 2, 3 and 4 are inter-dependent, I suggest reading clause 4 first in hind-sight 😉]

    2. I suggest changing Rapid Reload from a no cool-down ability to a 1 turn cool-down ability. This will decrease the effect of an Engineer/Hero 200% to 140% increase to the firing capacity of a Musketeer/Cannon/Juggernaut.

    3. I suggest changing Repair Machine from a no cool-down ability to a 2 or even 3 turn cool-down ability, and at the same time increase its healing capacity from 15hp to 20hp. I further suggest that at base level it will give 6hp regeneration on the strategic map, but will now become stackable – thus 2 repair machines in a stack will double the regeneration speed, 3 will triple it and so forth.)

    4. In order to balance the changes in the two previous clauses, I suggest moving the Repair Machine ability that the Engineer receives in Gold Medal to the Bronze Medal. An interesting addendum that will make leveling engineers worthwhile is to give them Shot Pistol on Gold Medal (this is based on an idea promoted by @BBB).

    5. Currently the Dreadnought unit research branch looks like this:

    Summon Spy Drone (80RP) –> Produce Engineer (60RP) –> Produce Musketeer (140RP) –> Produce Flame-Tank (400RP) –> Produce Cannon (400RP) -> Produce Golem (750RP) -> Produce Juggernaut (1500RP)

    It is obvious that the Golem is not used because it appears as the last t3 unit before the Juggernaut and has a very high research cost at that. Therefore the best solution for making it more attractive and balancing the extreme ranged bias of the Dreadnought in a way that will diversify the play-style of this class is to adjust the research tree – yes doing so creates a conflict with the lore, but IMO this change is critical. My suggestion is
    this:

    Unit Summoning and Production: Summon Spy Drone (80RP) –> Produce Engineer (60RP) –> Produce Musketeer (140RP) –> Produce Golem (400RP) –> Produce Flame-Tank (400RP) -> Produce Cannon (750RP) -> Produce Juggernaut (1500RP)

    Furthermore, the current unit prices of the Dreadnought require adjusting:

    Current Pricing
    140g/30m – Flame-Tank
    150g/30m – Cannon
    160g/40m – Golem

    Suggested Pricing
    170g/40m – Flame-Tank (receives a double discount!)
    170g/30m – Cannon
    140g/40m – Golem

    6. Aside from the above increase to the base cost of the Flame-Tank, I think the following changes are necessary: Flame-Tanks should be unlocked through the Blast Furnace building like the other t3 units; their base fire resistance should be nerfed to 20%; the base damage of their attack should not be more than that of a Fire Dragon, with all due respect to technology, and I suggest that it will be nerfed by 7 points to a 18 (although 5 points will do as well).
    7. I think there is no reason why the Spy Drone research should cost +20RP more then the base unit of other classes, I therefore suggest that it be adjusted to 60RP.

    * Concerning the previous threads discussion the Flame-Tank see @mezmorki’s opening post here: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/flame-tanks-grrrr/ .

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #116723

    Garresh
    Member

    Dreads OP. Muskets are god. That is all. 🙂

    #116759

    Kozzie
    Member

    @ 1 might be worhwhile but then i would make machines not vulnerable or even resistant to shock to balance out.
    but i still dont like the idea of machines being affected by spirit attacks , just doesnt feel right – blight resistance could be lowered to

    Flame tank 60% res blight
    Cannon 40 % res blight
    Golem 65% res blight ( he should be more tanky)
    Juggernaut 80% res blight

    ofc shrine of smithing should also be a bit vulnerable – 70% bligh res?

    @ 2
    i disagree with nerfing the engeneer rapid realod – its their only usage in dread armies – but a cooldown for heroes might be implemented (so that engeneers would still have this utility)

    @ 3 interresting changes but for example – healing can heal firstborn multiple times and many units posses the ability to heal its easy to heal units (in comparison to repairing machines )
    – while repair machine is exclusive to dreadnaugh hero and engeneer.

    i would make a 1 turn cooldown at most – simply beacuse healing is easier to obtain than repair machine – there are few spells that heal units but only 1 that repairs a machine (same for skills)

    (healing is on a 2 turn cd but its easier to obtain – repair would be on 1 turn cd beacuse its tougher to obtain)

    and about regen – maybe make it stackable but lets say 6hp with 1 repair 9 hp with 2 and so on.

    @ 4 Great ideas – engeneer would feel usuefull once again – and fire pistol would be a nice addon lore wise

    @ 5 – > i fear if putting the flame tank so late would not mean that it would be useless once thier turn comes)

    @ pricing – cheaper golem = yes !
    i would leave the cannon at its price – it comes kinda late and fires every other turn without enge

    flame tank price – im not sure if i agree or not;)

    @ i would keep their resistance (flame tanks) at their current level – they are after all being build with fire in their belly and their creators would most certainly make sure that they are more protected form fire than other stuff

    about the dmg – i would rather see the dragon dmg upgraded a bit rather than the ft one lowered

    @spy drone – agreed 60 rp would be a fair price

    #116766

    ExNihil
    Member

    1. Yes, I agree the resistance to spirit is not necessarily tied to the resistance to blight. I suggest a different solution in the Theocrat thread that will give the Evangelist a special ability that will solve the spirit immunity problem. Saying that, I think machine spirit resistance is not conceptually valid, but I acknowledge people having different notions 😉 – you can read that argument in the other Spirit, Blight, Machines and Theocrat thread, no point in writing it here. I’d prefer seeing Spirit resistance reduced in any case, so I suggest the following:

    Cannon 40 % Blight / 60% Spirit resistance
    Flame-Tank 60% Blight / 80% Spirit resistance
    Golem 60% res Blight / 100% Spirit resistance
    Juggernaut 80% Blight / 100% Spirit resistance

    2. My suggestions to change Rapid Reload and Repair Machine are directly linked to my suggestion to buff the Engineer by moving Repair Machine to bronze medal. I believe that the introduction of Repair Machine on a much lower level will more then compensate for the nerfing of Rapid Reload as far as the utility of the Engineer is concerned.

    3. I suggested the change to repair machine on the basis of making it much more prevalent ability through the change to the engineer. A 1 turn cooldown is to short for a healing activity and you should have multiple healers if you want such rapid healing IMO. What should perhaps be changed simultaneously though is the amount of HP restored – perhaps changing it from 15hp to 20hp or, with a 3 turn cooldown on the ability itself, 25hp.

    4. TNX :).

    5. Produce Flame-Tank will be only one bracket higher and would still be below Produce Cannon, there is really no way this will make it a useless unit. This will simply make it more balance by making the dread relay a bit more on melee.

    6. 60% Fire Resistance is crazy and it makes this unit as hard as a t4 unit in some ways. 20-40% should suffice depending on the new baseline stats of Dread Machines (if my suggestion to give them +20 fire and +20 frost and reduce the spirit and blight immunity is accepted).

    Fire-Tank Damage and Dragons: I think the breath attack of Dragons is very deadly, even with a cooldown – my point was that the Flame-Tank’s cooldown-less attack should be nerfed substantially. Perhaps you think Dragon attacks should be stronger in general, but then we will have to disagree :).

    #116768

    terrahero
    Member

    1.
    Reinforced does not reduce all physical damage by 4. It gives +4 defense against ranged attacks, not melee attacks.
    The drawbacks also go further then unable to regenerate. Resurgeance does not work, regular Healing does not work.
    There are additional specific Machine counter skills, such as Sabotage, Rust Strike and Rot.
    The machine units have Shock weakness. And all machines are universally very slow and lack in mobility. Machines do not ever get a bonus skill at Veteran-rank either.
    Except for the Golem, a melee machine-unit, other machines cannot retaliate or make attacks of oppertunity.

    I also have a big problem with saying Dreadnought has “extreme damage”. Golems do not get more damage then other tier3 melee units.
    Cannons need to hit two targets with every shot, else a Trebuchet is better damage, and thats awefully situational. Juggernaut is quite disapointing in its damage aswell aswell, having a quick drop-off due to range. Comparing a Juggernaut to the Horned God just puts it to shame.

    2.
    Using Rapid Reload on a Dreadnought hero si often a waste of time. As that hero can do better things with his time.
    Engineers do work for this, but it is a glasscannon principle. It doubles the overall DPS of cannons, juggernauts and musketeers. Its worth to note that an Engineer costs just 10mana less then an Musketeer. You spend 10mana less to get the same overall dps, but end up with a considerably weaker and squisher unit.

    That last part is important. As Engineer truely are incredibly squishy, so it may seem tempting to use a cannon with an engineer instead of two cannons. But that engineer does very easily in strategic combat. And the AI seems to use engineers outright suicidally in autocombat, a problem that extends across the game to various units.
    You may save a little bit on the shortrun, but as you have to produce more and more Engineers you might start to wonder why you didnt just shell out the extra cash for a real combat unit.

    Besides this, rapid reload may allow overall similar damage. Getting two combat units, allows for more burst. And in a game thats build on the combat principle that a unit with 1hp does full damage, that is important. Cannon+Cannon could kill it this turn, Cannon+Engineer will kill it next turn, after it got another turn to move and attack.

    3.
    This is very accurate, and its a cheesy strategy that the AI is currently incapable of dealing with. A 15hp heal with no cooldown is a problem, and ive suggested myself before to make this skill much easier available. But, to give it a cooldown or buffing the heal and limiting it to once per battle.

    But i do want to add that the mainweakness isnt just unable to regenerate, it ties in with the low mobility. And thats the real weakness of Dreadnought, its incredibly slow.
    Units move where they need to be slowly, get there, get damaged, have to move back to repair, and then back to where they were going.

    5.
    Golems are also just a bit rubish. Not just unfitting in the general playstyle of Dreadnought, which as you mentioned, has its focus on ranged combat. But just for a tier3 melee units, its not very good.
    For a melee unit damage is pretty much guarenteed. And you’d think that if a melee unit is unable to regenerate and incredibly difficult to heal, there would be some big benefits to offset this. But there really isnt. Comparing a Golem to a Firstborn, both melee units focussed on being tanky, does not reflect well on the Golem.

    6.
    Firstly some inaccuracies. Flametanks do not have Reinforced, they get Armored instead. The plus is the it dips from both cost reduction research the Dreadnought has. But its not fair to compare a fully upgraded unit, other classes get good upgrades aswell for their units to make them stronger. And there is no guarentee that either of these research have come around untill late game.

    Downside, that 12 armour is susceptible to armorpiercing and Rusting abilities. Bringing it down from a meh 12/10 to a meager 10/10. Which makes Rust Strike in particular very powerful.

    Its firebreath attack is also its only form of damage, something that is worth mentioning. People often compare it to Dragons, who have a cooldown on their breath. But, they can also melee for upto 25dmg *per attack* with a potential of 3 attacks per channel.
    The Flametank only has the flamethrower. No retaliation, no attacks of oppertunity. And Explosive Death also harms units allied with the Flametank.

    I think the “drawbacks” of fire units is a bit overplayed. If you have fire immune units, why would you care about focussing the flametank? It can deal no damage to fire immune units. A full stack of 6 flametanks litteraly dies to a single Draconian Flamer.
    And that last part is important. A flame tank can do a lot of damage under the right circumstances, hitting a stacked group of units. But it can also get countered very hard by taking advantage of its machine weaknesses or employing fire protected/immune units. Or using spells to protect units.

    I would personally change the tech tree for Dreadnought, put the Golem after Musketeer. Then the Cannon and the Flametank. And put the flametank on the blast furnace.
    The purpose of this is to delay flametanks from entering the field, giving other players more time to work on a counter. Which could be getting dwarves, draconians, fairies (yes, people often forget about these), dragons, wyverns, giants, or teching up through your fire attunement.
    Or simply getting higher tier units yourself, that are better equiped in dealing with the tier3 flametank, instead of running your tier1 units into it.
    As a bonus, with the golem being earlier it can come out in a time where better melee units arent available yet. Afterall, tier3 racial buildings are expensive.

    Regarding your balance suggestions:

    1. This makes machines far less tanky, and still being forced to stack engineers to get regenerations as per suggestion 3. is not a fair trade-off. If machines are going to drastically lose on their elemental protection, then regeneration should come baseline, or other stats (damage,defense,resistance) is to be buffed.

    These suggested numbers, sorry if this sounds offensive, seem pulled out of thin air.
    The Golem is going to end up with less protection then the Firstborn. The same firstborn who has more defense, more resistance, and atleast as much damage (situationally even more) and doesnt have any of the healing and regeneration drawbacks. Or a weakness to anything.
    The golem alone would need a buff to defense and resistance, aswell as damage and given zero limitation on healing, and it would still be inferior.

    The fact Juggernaut is even suggested as 2×80% protection, is just silly. It has a 40% shock weakness. Compare it to the Horned God, who gets 2×100% protection, 1×40% and 2×20% weakness. It comes out far ahead already, agian with none of the healing drawbacks. Not to mention all the extra’s.

    2. Rapid Reload is vastly overrated. The Engineer already has little place on the battlefield, and nerfing Rapid Reload isnt compensated enough for by a once-per-battle heal, it takes up a valueable unit slot. Ive talked about this earlier already.
    The result would be that you’d have a unit, the engineer, sitting around idle for a number of turns. Not doing anything.

    3. This is a change i can support. Buff the healing, but limit how often its useable. It should be something you use in a pinch, not something that basicly acts as a constant-regen on long-range units.

    4. I stick to my personal suggestion. That is to elevate Engineer to a tier2 support-unit. Repair Machine should be baseline, but with the change to the Repair Machine ability mentioned at #3.
    It would be a unit thats all about supporting machine units, being tankier to not get sniped to easily, but only have a hold-out weapon in the form of the Blunderbus. More as a backup. So a support with worst combat potential.

    5. I agree with the changing of the research tree, already covered it a bit earlier in my post.
    I dont agree with the cost. A units cost should not be made more expensive because there is a potential to use two empire upgrades. We dont give Druid’s beast -2resistance because later they could get an empire upgrade that buffs that up again.
    And its not even just compensating for double-dipping, its a flat out nerf. If it only got 10% discount once it would be 126/27. After your nerf its 136/32.

    I also do not understand the Cannon nerf. Its really not better then a Trebuchet, its different. Its less single-target damage, but you get more damage if you do hit two targets.
    Statwise they are fairly similar, if not downright identical. And Cannon already comes out later then a Trebuchet, with a more expensive ivestment to reach it. And even then a cannon is already more expensive, costing 150/30 vs 150 for a Treb.

    Golem i wouldnt bring down to 140/40, 150/30 is better in line with racial units such as the Firstborn and Shocktrooper. Any buffs to the Golem should in my opinion come in its performance, not making it just cheaper. But currently its more expensive, and that should be rectified.

    6. Delaying Flametanks seems more then suitable enough, if by the time they come out (after upgrades have been build, and the research has progressed that far) you still dont have a means to compete with them i think the problem was in your priorities. When you know you are against a Dreadnought, you know firedamage is inevitable, just like how Shockdamage is inevitable when playing against a Sorcerer.

    #116776

    Kozzie
    Member

    i must say that i forgot to mention some stuff that terrahero said (thanks!)

    jugg t4 is rubbish compared to all other t4 , and yes i will take a 2nd damage dealing unit instead of an engie everyday – unless it had repair machine

    golem is worth it only when under the effects of ocerload (unless it gets stunned from it) – > apart from that it is really bad for a t3 that requried so much research

    cannon dmg is worse vs single target – i rarely see people placing 2 units in such a way i can hit them

    #116784

    Draxynnic
    Member

    We’ve discussed engineer rapid reload before, but I think it’s appropriate as is. The affected machines – cannons and juggs – are already balanced on the assumption that there will be engineers around. Yes, an engineer is cheaper than a second machine – but it’s also squishier, which can be punishing even against AI opportunism let alone a player, and as pointed out above, firing every round is still not as valuable as being able to compress two rounds worth of firing and kill something then and there.

    Those machines also do quite light damage to single targets for their tier. Unless it’s a siege or you can leverage their area attacks, musketeers and trebs are often better. If engineers are given a cooldown to Rapid Reload, I would expect the end result to be that engineers get eschewed entirely in favour of musketeers and trebs. Giving them Repair Machine at bronze might give them a strategic reason to exist, but my prediction if this happens would be that engineers once brought to bronze standard will be kept out of combat stacks where practical and used as a mobile repair station. It’s possibly the smartest thing to do with gold engineers already.

    #116793

    Ericridge
    Member

    Out of all classes, I play Dreadnought the most.

    Spy Drones is Wonderful.

    Engineers is BLah horrible!

    Musketeers is wonderful.

    Flame Tank used to have reinforced perk but it was first thing that got removed from flame tank, something about shooting arrows at a flame tank was too hard for people. Its gone now.

    Cannons is okay, basically an stronger version of trebuchet.

    Golem is okay I guess, they only become very useful when they acquire tireless after reaching elite.

    Juggernaught is mediocre now.

    Armies of Spy drone can be very effective with explosive death.

    Engineer as currently as they are is used in VERY limited numbers and protected like insane if they somehow manage to reach elite. Best use of them is to take them out of the army slot so they won’t get killed in an massive battle particularly if enemy have alot of flyers, i’ve seen AIs go out of their way just to murder my engineers many times. I’ve been playing aow3 for four months and only two engineers managed to reach elite.

    Musketeers is sexy in autoresolve :3

    Flame Tanks is used when you want to burn wooden walls down and attempt to gain an upper hand in opening stages of skirmishing between two players in battles and used to buy time because dreadnought have slow start. However AIs seem to really love to mass their shrines of smiting and send them all in large group against the flame tank army. This has a tendency to end badly for the AI due to vulnerablity of shrines of smiting against fire xD

    Cannons don’t really get used unless the player dont’ have that much of units and must siege a city anyways then they will bombard a city slowly at long range until walls get breached for dreadnought troops to start moving in.

    Golems at elite is pretty okay, I use them in limited numbers. As long as you pace yourself carefully the golems won’t let you down and reach elite. AN elite golem will have 106 hp, and if you manage to get the great moblization spell up then that’s when Golems become incredible. Because an Great Mobilization spell will mean your elite golems will have 106 hp, 36 movement, 17 def, 13 res and 24 physical damage while enjoying tireless. Meanwhile a recruit or trooper Golem will only have 13 defense if you pick up solid engineering empire upgrade. If you know how to use tireless units very good, then an elite golem will last you for very long time. The great moblization spell will make your elite golems really come to life until then they are humble melee units xD

    As for juggernaughts, they’re really only brought out for siege battles and tough battles where their large hp pool will be of some use and generally random battles.

    Dreadnought is way more useful against the AI because the AI will make many mistakes that allow you to use dreadnought abilities at full power while you won’t make use of it that much against human cuz human players is smarter.

    While musketeers is amazing but if you confront them at 2 to 3 time basis then musketeers will start to struggle alot.
    Basically if enemy brought Six musketeers, and you brought twelve berserkers? You can take them HARD on open field. But if you brought eighteen berserkers against six musketeers, at most the musketeers will kill three berserkers only to be wiped out in return unless the terrain is in their favor or they have walls allowing them to kill a few more.

    What dreadnought really don’t like is when enemy outnumber him, he will have plenty of trouble due to alot of his stuff cannot retaliate or they can retaliate but poorily due to ranged nature of their humanoid infantry. They must use racial infantry as their melee until they manage to unlock Golems and start to churn them out. Musketeers can do the job in a pinch, just lacking against stuff like shocktrooper or melee dedicated tier 2 units xD

    Most of times, when in doubt, getting in melee with dreadnought is good idea unless he have musketeers waiting then it’s up to you to think hard and defeat him through multiple battles.

    While it is in dreadnought’s advantage to keep you at range unless you’re an sorceror, sorceror is bad match up for dreadnought due to abundance of shocking stuff XD

    #116814

    ExNihil
    Member

    Thanks for the detailed response! I’ll do the same 🙂

    Reinforced does not reduce all physical damage by 4. It gives +4 defense against ranged attacks, not melee attacks.

    Yup, my bad.

    The drawbacks also go further then unable to regenerate. Resurgeance does not work, regular Healing does not work.

    Yes, but in what are you differing here? Resurgence does work on the Shrine of Smiting btw.

    There are additional specific Machine counter skills, such as Sabotage, Rust Strike and Rot.

    The are many more additional counters to work on none-machine units.

    The machine units have Shock weakness. And all machines are universally very slow and lack in mobility. Machines do not ever get a bonus skill at Veteran-rank either.

    Machine do have a shock weakness, which could be nerfed a bit where it is -40% to -20% or even eliminated on some units (Juggernauts for instance). They do not receive a veteran level perk, but not all t3 units do as well. They are as slow as any walking unit is and the solution here is to build roads – no doubt that this is a part of their balancing scheme and it is a strategic weakness.

    Saying all of this (previous paragraph included), you will note that I already state as much in my initial post.

    Except for the Golem, a melee machine-unit, other machines cannot retaliate or make attacks of oppertunity.

    And yet they can fire when engaged and perform their full attack with even 1 action point, i’d say that is compensation enough (see below).

    I also have a big problem with saying Dreadnought has “extreme damage”. Golems do not get more damage then other tier3 melee units.

    It does have extreme damage, going for the Golem as the proving a rule is wrong – it is an exception not the rule and even it is a rather good unit. Dread ranged units from the Musketeer on have very high damage in their category and excellent range for whatever attack they are using.

    Cannons need to hit two targets with every shot, else a Trebuchet is better damage, and thats awefully situational. Juggernaut is quite disapointing in its damage aswell aswell, having a quick drop-off due to range. Comparing a Juggernaut to the Horned God just puts it to shame.

    I have no idea how the AI reacts to cannons so I cannot say. But I can tell you that stacks of Cannons are one of the most devastating things in MP even with no synergies. If you pair it with seeker enchantment it just becomes ridiculous how powerful Cannons are. There is a huge gap between Trebuchets and Cannons, first in range and then in the AoE attack. Yes, on a 1v1 basis it will probably lose to most t3 units – but that is not the way to use Cannons. Juggernauts are also very powerful – yes The Horned God is an all round better unit and is in fact my favorite t4, yet the AD compensates for this with a bunch of mediocre to shit animal units before (not all but most). You should also remember that the Dreadnought has 3xt3 units which give it a great versatility at this braket. Finally I will qoute @abednegojc here as you already brought this up in a different thread and he replied to you:

    @terrahero:
    ur wrong man. Flametank is awesome, there is only few units who counter him – like firstborn, lvled dracon cavalry, lvled dracon flyer, hellhound, forgepriests. Flame tank place in army is like shield – he doenst allow enemy meele charge in you, because two flametanks can kill most of them in one round. Also with summon and monster slayer flametanks counter basically all summons except hellhound and fire vywern – so sorc is in serious troubles, when dread get to flametanks.

    This, + fact its almost impossible to killflametank with physical ranged, gives him important place in dread army. Cannons are similar… they can fire on extremely long range using ostacles and in combination with flametanks enemy has two choices:
    1) running away and die slowly on cannons
    2) charge into enemy and die quickly from flametanks

    Ofc one cannon loose vs one shocktrooper, but thats not dreads style… Dread combat mechanics is a bit different than others (usually u trying to kill shooters etc… dread has to just kill fire-proof units, than his flametanks will win the battle … Its seriously not true dread machines are weak.

    To juggernaut – I see no problem with him, its one of strongest t4 imho, with other dread skills he can face even horrors or horned gods (despite of fact they are basically counters of him).

    2.
    Using Rapid Reload on a Dreadnought hero si often a waste of time. As that hero can do better things with his time.
    Engineers do work for this, but it is a glasscannon principle. It doubles the overall DPS of cannons, juggernauts and musketeers. Its worth to note that an Engineer costs just 10mana less then an Musketeer. You spend 10mana less to get the same overall dps, but end up with a considerably weaker and squisher unit.

    That last part is important. As Engineer truely are incredibly squishy, so it may seem tempting to use a cannon with an engineer instead of two cannons. But that engineer does very easily in strategic combat. And the AI seems to use engineers outright suicidally in autocombat, a problem that extends across the game to various units.
    You may save a little bit on the shortrun, but as you have to produce more and more Engineers you might start to wonder why you didnt just shell out the extra cash for a real combat unit.

    Besides this, rapid reload may allow overall similar damage. Getting two combat units, allows for more burst. And in a game thats build on the combat principle that a unit with 1hp does full damage, that is important. Cannon+Cannon could kill it this turn, Cannon+Engineer will kill it next turn, after it got another turn to move and attack.

    Let me start with a fact: 6xMusketeers/Cannons/Juggernauts are always better then 3xMusketeers/Cannons/Juggernauts + 3xEngineers. This is true now, and will be true if my change is accepted. The argument that players would rather have 2xranged unit rather than 1xranged unit and 1xengineer is silly – the only reason people include engineers now in a stack is because they do not possess more ranged units. If they did have more ranged units then they would form stacks of pure Musketeers/Cannons/Juggernauts rather than a mixture of these + Engineers. What Engineers allow one to do is don’t have the actual units but possess the fire-power. Even when giving a boost on “only” 140% the Engineer would significantly contribute to the capacities of the Dreadnought – until there are sufficent numbers of ranged units to create stronger stacks.

    As for the argument “cannon+cannon will kill this turn, cannon+engineer will kill next turn”, this is completely dependent on the situation and the damage inflicted to a target. This is in fact no argument against what I propose as the ratio of shots within a turn will remain the same – a Cannon will not fire more then once in a turn. Furthermore, regarding “extreme damage”, the fact is that when grouped Dreadnought units can often kill a significant amount of the opposing force within a single round by focusing fire.

    Regarding Engineer Squishiness – it is a t1 irregular unit that doubles t3/4 units, when you get to this stage of the game even robust t1 units are sorta squishy.

    But i do want to add that the mainweakness isnt just unable to regenerate, it ties in with the low mobility. And thats the real weakness of Dreadnought, its incredibly slow.
    Units move where they need to be slowly, get there, get damaged, have to move back to repair, and then back to where they were going.

    Again, this is a combination of factors. It is factually inaccurate that the Dreadnought needs to return to a city to regenerate – only if the leader is dead or missing the necessary traits (and there are no gold-medal engineers :).) Actually this description applies to the Theocrat rather then the Dread, he has a t4 unit that cannot regenerate and which he can’t repair.

    Golems are also just a bit rubish. Not just unfitting in the general playstyle of Dreadnought, which as you mentioned, has its focus on ranged combat. But just for a tier3 melee units, its not very good.
    For a melee unit damage is pretty much guarenteed. And you’d think that if a melee unit is unable to regenerate and incredibly difficult to heal, there would be some big benefits to offset this. But there really isnt. Comparing a Golem to a Firstborn, both melee units focussed on being tanky, does not reflect well on the Golem.

    First Golems are not rubbish at all. Even with my proposed reduction of their resistance they will be extremely tanky. Second you forget – and this is relevant for the entire discussion – the huge advantage the Dread has in the form of the spells “Force Field” and “Reassemble” which make this unit when used in combination extremely deadly (add also Summon Slayer and Pest Control and you have one mean other-class killing machine.) Force Field gives Dread units 60% elemental resistance and with the new dispel mechanisms is gonna be even more hardcore. Reassmble allows the battlefield resurrection of Machine units at a very cheap cost and with 35% hp. Only very late-game Theocrat or creation sphere master can do this for none-machine units. Third, you should think of all of my proposals as interlinked – I propose, and you support, a proliferation of repair machine and increase of its capacities. Forth, you take as your counter example the strongest and most IMBA racial t3 unit in the game, compared to most t3 units the Golem sits in a good place. Please see the DWARF Balance Discussion for a long breakdown of this issue.

    Firstly some inaccuracies. Flametanks do not have Reinforced, they get Armored instead. The plus is the it dips from both cost reduction research the Dreadnought has. But its not fair to compare a fully upgraded unit, other classes get good upgrades aswell for their units to make them stronger. And there is no guarentee that either of these research have come around untill late game.

    I stand corrected regarding Reinforced. As for the stats – I bring the base stats and add a comment in [], you seem to disregard that. Consider here also the discussion of repair. As for guarentees concerning research – the research tree is actually predictable, you can learn the slots of were techs appear and locate them. As for the double discount – this is IMBA, I will discuss this when I reply to your suggestions below.

    Downside, that 12 armour is susceptible to armorpiercing and Rusting abilities. Bringing it down from a meh 12/10 to a meager 10/10. Which makes Rust Strike in particular very powerful.

    Its firebreath attack is also its only form of damage, something that is worth mentioning. People often compare it to Dragons, who have a cooldown on their breath. But, they can also melee for upto 25dmg *per attack* with a potential of 3 attacks per channel.
    The Flametank only has the flamethrower. No retaliation, no attacks of oppertunity. And Explosive Death also harms units allied with the Flametank.

    The vulnerability to rust strike is situational and it will take no less then 3 casts of this spell to destroy a Flame-Tank. Saying that, in comparison to this unit Organic units are much more vulnerable to a much greater range of spells and debuff abilities.

    Regarding Dragons – yes they can bite but can’t use ranged every turn also they are t4 units that cost no less then 410 production units or 2.3 times more at baseline, before a double discount in price.

    Regarding no retaliation and atack of oppertunity: yes and it has the capacity to fire when engaged and on a red hex in return. It also does massive AoE damage. Explosive Death is a double edged sword but it is a sword nonetheless.

    I think the “drawbacks” of fire units is a bit overplayed. If you have fire immune units, why would you care about focussing the flametank? It can deal no damage to fire immune units. A full stack of 6 flametanks litteraly dies to a single Draconian Flamer.
    And that last part is important. A flame tank can do a lot of damage under the right circumstances, hitting a stacked group of units. But it can also get countered very hard by taking advantage of its machine weaknesses or employing fire protected/immune units. Or using spells to protect units.

    Well, this is a very bad example – do you usually build stacks composed of a single unit type without mixing it? Fire Immune units are counters but due to 60% Fire Resistance they are also highly circumscribed. Either way the “countered very hard” is very exaggerated rhetorics – any skilled player will not be caught in the situations you are depicting. I can OFC not say what the AI can and will do.

    Ok, lets turn to the suggestions section:

    1. This makes machines far less tanky, and still being forced to stack engineers to get regenerations as per suggestion 3. is not a fair trade-off. If machines are going to drastically lose on their elemental protection, then regeneration should come baseline, or other stats (damage,defense,resistance) is to be buffed.

    You disregard my proposal to compensate with Fire and Frost resistance increase of +20% in both registers. This “Drastic” nerf will still leave Machines with very high elemental protection in both the Spirit and Blight registers. Furthermore, you are failing to consider “Force Field” here for blight. Finally, making repair machine a bronze medal ability will defintly compensate for this.

    These suggested numbers, sorry if this sounds offensive, seem pulled out of thin air.
    The Golem is going to end up with less protection then the Firstborn. The same firstborn who has more defense, more resistance, and atleast as much damage (situationally even more) and doesnt have any of the healing and regeneration drawbacks. Or a weakness to anything.
    The golem alone would need a buff to defense and resistance, aswell as damage and given zero limitation on healing, and it would still be inferior.

    The fact Juggernaut is even suggested as 2×80% protection, is just silly. It has a 40% shock weakness. Compare it to the Horned God, who gets 2×100% protection, 1×40% and 2×20% weakness. It comes out far ahead already, agian with none of the healing drawbacks. Not to mention all the extra’s.

    You are right, it does sound offensive and simply shows that you havn’t read the other threads (Goblins, Theocrat, and Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat) in full. The resistances proposed are meant to horizontally balance the game. You also disregard my reply to Kozzie in which I agree that Blight and Spirit are not necessarily tied and my updated proposal:

    Yes, I agree the resistance to spirit is not necessarily tied to the resistance to blight. I suggest a different solution in the Theocrat thread that will give the Evangelist a special ability that will solve the spirit immunity problem. Saying that, I think machine spirit resistance is not conceptually valid, but I acknowledge people having different notions – you can read that argument in the other Spirit, Blight, Machines and Theocrat thread, no point in writing it here. I’d prefer seeing Spirit resistance reduced in any case, so I suggest the following:

    Cannon 40 % Blight / 60% Spirit resistance
    Flame-Tank 60% Blight / 80% Spirit resistance
    Golem 60% res Blight / 100% Spirit resistance
    Juggernaut 80% Blight / 100% Spirit resistance

    I have thought long and hard about Blight and Spirit resistance and have dealt with this in length in the above mentioned threads. These and the original numbers are not “pulled out of thin air”, but are meant to balance the current battle-field situation. Furthermore they are tied to a conceptual discussion of machines.

    Regarding the Juggernaut – you again specifically disregard my proposal to give machine units +20 Frost and Fire resistance at baseline, and you again compare it to the best t4 unit in the game.

    Finally regarding First-Born: you again compare to the most IMBA and OP racial t3 unit, please take a look in the Dwarf balance discussion. If you want to be fair now make the comparison to the other racial t3 units.

    Rapid Reload is vastly overrated. The Engineer already has little place on the battlefield, and nerfing Rapid Reload isnt compensated enough for by a once-per-battle heal, it takes up a valueable unit slot. Ive talked about this earlier already.
    The result would be that you’d have a unit, the engineer, sitting around idle for a number of turns. Not doing anything.

    I’ve already replied to this above. As for the “engineer sitting around idle for a number of turn” this is simply not true. With the introduction of Repair Machine it would be able to repair machines and by having a blunderbuss it will be able to shot at whatever melee units are approaching – both while in cooldown.

    I stick to my personal suggestion. That is to elevate Engineer to a tier2 support-unit. Repair Machine should be baseline, but with the change to the Repair Machine ability mentioned at #3.
    It would be a unit thats all about supporting machine units, being tankier to not get sniped to easily, but only have a hold-out weapon in the form of the Blunderbus. More as a backup. So a support with worst combat potential.

    Where did you make this suggestion? Anyhow, I am not against buffing the Engineer but this should be done in a seperate post here that discusses the ways to do it. Yet, you seem to think that the Dreadnought requires a buff in the form of an upgraded engineer and proliferated Repair Machine without nerfing Rapid Reload, which is ridiculous IMO.

    I dont agree with the cost. A units cost should not be made more expensive because there is a potential to use two empire upgrades. We dont give Druid’s beast -2resistance because later they could get an empire upgrade that buffs that up again.
    And its not even just compensating for double-dipping, its a flat out nerf. If it only got 10% discount once it would be 126/27. After your nerf its 136/32.

    They are made more expansive because their position in the research tree is changed – I remind the reader that the updated price should be considered relative to the discount as well. You should look at the pricing scheme of every t3 class in the game. The earlier it appears in the research tree the cheaper it is and vice versa. Also, at 10% discount it will still cost less then a racial t3 unit.

    I also do not understand the Cannon nerf. Its really not better then a Trebuchet, its different. Its less single-target damage, but you get more damage if you do hit two targets.

    Well, IMO you are plain wrong here. I already explained why above.

    Any buffs to the Golem should in my opinion come in its performance, not making it just cheaper.

    I have no problem with discussing some buffs to the Golem, again this should be made in a seperate post here. You should remember though “Reassemble”.

    Delaying Flametanks seems more then suitable enough, if by the time they come out (after upgrades have been build, and the research has progressed that far) you still dont have a means to compete with them i think the problem was in your priorities. When you know you are against a Dreadnought, you know firedamage is inevitable, just like how Shockdamage is inevitable when playing against a Sorcerer.

    Its not a question of what I or a specific player does and its not q question of having means to compete with them either – they are vastly OP and IMBA as t3 units, hence the suggested nerfs, which as you will note are really not that drastic when you compare it to what @mezmorki suggested:

    (1) Reduce size of flame cone attack (currently shoots FIVE hexes at the furthest point)
    (2) Reduce damage of the flame attack (currently does 25 damage)
    (3) Reduce armor value and/or hit points
    (4) Remove or lessen the fiery death damage
    (5) 1 turn cool down for shooting flames

    Wow, that was long 🙂

    #116853

    Draxynnic
    Member

    As for the argument “cannon+cannon will kill this turn, cannon+engineer will kill next turn”, this is completely dependent on the situation and the damage inflicted to a target. This is in fact no argument against what I propose as the ratio of shots within a turn will remain the same – a Cannon will not fire more then once in a turn. Furthermore, regarding “extreme damage”, the fact is that when grouped Dreadnought units can often kill a significant amount of the opposing force within a single round by focusing fire.

    If you have two cannons (or juggernauts, or musketeers, or any hypothetical future unit which may be affected by Rapid Reload) you can always choose to stagger their fire so you get a shot every round if it’s advantageous. However, you can never get two shots in the same round with an engineer and a cannon/juggernaut/musketeer.

    This is one of the tradeoffs to using engineers – that you forfeit this ‘alpha strike’ capability. Engineers are certainly cheaper (albeit only barely in the case of musketeers) but as things currently stand, you are in fact giving up quite a bit for that.

    #116860

    ExNihil
    Member

    If you have two cannons (or juggernauts, or musketeers, or any hypothetical future unit which may be affected by Rapid Reload) you can always choose to stagger their fire so you get a shot every round if it’s advantageous. However, you can never get two shots in the same round with an engineer and a cannon/juggernaut/musketeer.

    This is one of the tradeoffs to using engineers – that you forfeit this ‘alpha strike’ capability. Engineers are certainly cheaper (albeit only barely in the case of musketeers) but as things currently stand, you are in fact giving up quite a bit for that.

    Of course, but my suggestions are holistic – I am suggesting to change things as they stand now while adjusting many factors in relation to one another.

    @everyone,

    I suggest we take a look at the Engineer and see how we can buff this unit. I’m not sure this is necessary, but it will certainly be helpful and alleviate some of the concerns that have been brought up:

    Engineer (Tier I): 70g / 10m, 4g maintanace. 32hp, 28mp, 9def / 8 res. Melee Strike 6, Fire Blunderbuss (1x) 8 physical and 8 fire damage. Abilities: Rapid Reload, Walking, Irregular, 60% Fir Protection.

    Trooper: +1 physical Strength, +2hp
    Veteran: +1 ranged Strength, +1def, +2hp
    Expert: +1 melee Strength, +1res, +2hp
    Elite: +1 physical Strength, +1 defense, +4hp, Repair Machine

    Racial Variants:
    Dwarf: +5g cost, Projectile Resistance
    Human: +10g cost, Throw Net

    I think the suggestion made by @terrahero to upgrade this unit to tier 2 makes sense if its core traits are being buffed. This will also make more sense if it receives Shot Pistol on gold medal. If it is upgraded to a t2 support unit, its base stats should be increased as well – I’d say to the same level of racial t2 support units at least, which have a baseline of 36hp and a baseline total of 20 def/res stat points. This will also entail an increase in all the medal bonuses to HP. Doing all of these in turn will necessitate an increase in this unit’s price of at least 10% IMO. Thus my suggestion is this:

    Engineer (Tier II): 75g / 15m, 8g maintenance. 36hp, 28mp, 10def / 10res. Melee Strike 6, Fire Blunderbuss (1x) 8 physical and 8 fire damage. Abilities: Rapid Reload, Walking, Irregular, 60% Fire Resistance.

    Trooper: +1 fire ranged Strength, +4hp
    Veteran: +1 physical ranged Strength, +1def, +4hp, Repair Machine
    Expert: +1 fire ranged Strength, +1res, +4hp
    Elite: +1 physical Strength, +1 defense, +8hp, Fire Pistol

    Racial Variants:
    Dwarf: +10g cost, Projectile Resistance
    Human: +10g cost, Throw Net

    I am not wholly against moving Repair Machine to baseline, if the engineer is upgraded to a t2 along the above lines and Repair Machine is changed as I suggested before.

    Now lets look at the Golem:

    Golem: 160g / 40m cost, 16g maint. 76hp, 28mp, 12def / 10res. Melee Strike 18 physical damage. Abilities: Walking, Wall Crushing, Reinforced, Cannot Regenerate, 100% Blight Resistance, 100% Spirit Resistance, -20% Shock Resistance.

    Trooper: +1 melee strength, +6hp
    Veteran: +1 melee strength, +1def, +6hp
    Expert: +1 melee strength, +1res, +6hp
    Elite: +1 melee strength, +1def, +12hp, Tireless

    IMO this is a rather good unit. It has the highest baseline t3 hp and ok stats. Its melee attack is also stronger then that of Racial t3 units (First-Born is contested here), and has Wall Crushing. Add to that reinforced and 2 immunities and it is a powerful unit indeed. I of course propose to change the immunities, and I also think that its base stats could deserve a little boost. I therefore think that it should receive +2 defense and the Armored trait, which will allow Dread to give it a double discount while also creating a vulnerability in the form of Armor Piercing. I also suggest inflict creepling wounds at baseline as that is fitting for a unit with such crushing attacks. Finally I think it could do with Overwhelm on veteran. Doing all of these though will require a price readjustment to what I proposed before:

    Golem: 160g or 150g / 40m cost, 16g maint. 76hp, 28mp, 14def / 10res. Melee Strike 18 physical damage. Abilities: Walking, Wall Crushing, Reinforced, Cannot Regenerate, Armored, 60% Blight Resistance, 100% Spirit Resistance, 20% Fire Resistance, 20% Frost Resistance, -20% Shock Resistance, Inflict Crippling Wounds.

    Trooper: +1 melee strength, +6hp
    Veteran: +1 melee strength, +1def, +6hp, Overwhelm
    Expert: +1 melee strength, +1res, +6hp
    Elite: +1 melee strength, +1def, +12hp, Tireless

    #116884

    terrahero
    Member

    This whole thing is turning far to much into argueing about semantics. And the more it drags on the more it becomes obvious that balance is far more delicate. And just heaping a laundry list of changes will likely do more harm then good.

    Instead, i have to question if this is really such a big problem for Theocrats to begin with.
    Most of their damage channels are infact physical. Cherub has a little bit of spirit damage, and exhalted has a little bit of Spirit damage. But the vast majority of their damage is physical.
    The Crusader, Martyr and Evangelist are all physcal damage. And the Support class in general that Theocrats lean on can be any kind of elemental damage, depending on the race. It can be spirit, blight, fire, shock. Perhaps even Frost, if Archon Casters scale with the empire upgrade.

    And in their spells there are only 4 spells who are dealing with spirit damage and combat or an aggressive way. Smite and Wrath of God deal direct spirit damage. Holy War is a late-game skill that boosts your units with +10spirit damage during a battle.
    And Armageddon, another lategame spell that debuffs all enemies with 80% spirit weakness.
    The Shrine of Smiting’s main attack is 50/50 between fire and spirit, and its big AoE killer move is Fire and Shock.

    Goblins get off a bit worst as their ranged unit relies on a majority of Blight damage 3physica/4blight. However, this isnt always a disadvantage, and they get no damage fall-off over range or LoS penalties.
    The Blight doctor which relies on full-on Blight damage. And the Big Beetle which has a little bit of Blight damage on his melee, but its mostly about physical damage. Other goblin units are purely physical.

    And honestly, im not even going to care about Orc Priests. Orc Priests do poorly against a lot of Dreadnought units. So what? Storm Sisters do poorly against a lot of Sorcerer units.
    Its one of the drawbacks of early-game High-elf. Clearing mana nodes when all you have is physical damage, as your Priest doesnt do anything.

    The games balance seems to lie primairily with singleplayer, which makes sense as that is what the absolute vast majority of people play Age of Wonders 3 for. And with the addition of upcomming changes, more rng and such, i think this just supports my believe that its mainly about single player. As such randomness is very bad for competitive multiplay, but can be very fun for singleplayer.

    And less and less am i seeing a real problem here about blight and spirit protection. And that is even ignoring the fact that you arent tied down to just your class units, there are racial units. And not just your starting race.
    Now i would love it that when im playing Dreadnought my machine units could actually stick around, instead of having to send em back to get some dents hammered out every other big fight.
    And where Sugna’s Repair Tools is the most important hero item i can find.

    But is that really such a big a deal, that we have to suggest such a list of drastic overhauls? Honestly, i dont think so.
    And while im being honest, when i let the idea go of “everything should be perfectly balanced for fairness sake”, ive found the game much more enjoyable.

    And now im going to play Theocrat, because the idea of Archon Support sounds like fun.

    #116950

    ExNihil
    Member

    But is that really such a big a deal, that we have to suggest such a list of drastic overhauls? Honestly, i dont think so.
    And while im being honest, when i let the idea go of “everything should be perfectly balanced for fairness sake”, ive found the game much more enjoyable.

    I appreciate honesty. Well I do think there is place for balancing, and hence I am discussing it. If you feel differently its your prerogative – no point in arguing about it.

    This whole thing is turning far to much into argueing about semantics. And the more it drags on the more it becomes obvious that balance is far more delicate. And just heaping a laundry list of changes will likely do more harm then good.

    I bag to differ, it is not about semantics and it is not a laundry list. If you don’t want to participate in the discussion because you feel its petty then that’s your prerogative again, but I invested a substantial amount of time making this thread and answering you and I think your new approach to the matter is a little belittling and disregards the points of the discussion.

    Instead, i have to question if this is really such a big problem for Theocrats to begin with.
    Most of their damage channels are infact physical.

    I discussed this question at length in another thread in which you participated – the Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat, which is dedicated to this discussion as well as the Goblins. I have already answered this question there. Aside from that I don’t want to have this meta-discussion here because it will clutter this thread, thus I propose you re-post it there. I will give you a concise answer:

    Theocrat: Reduced to 1 channel in 50% of units – Cherub, Exalted and Shrine of Smiting (main attack); no damage spells, no ability effects; no spell effects. Holy War is ineffectual until Armageddon – Tier 7 magic, very late-game.

    Goblins: 3 units reduced to 1 damage channel; Support unit becomes ineffectual; no ability effects except Inflict Weaken.

    Orcs: Support unit becomes ineffectual including Curse

    Humans: Support unit becomes ineffectual

    Arch-Druid: Animal and monsters units damage reduced to single channel; damage spells become ineffectual; has Rust Strike.

    Rogue: Assassin Damage reduced to single channel, including assassin strike; Damage Spells and many abilities become ineffectual; receives Sabotage on scoundrel.

    If you want to discuss this I reiterate, re-post in that thread and we will discuss or argue about this in whatever length is necessary.

    The games balance seems to lie primairily with singleplayer, which makes sense as that is what the absolute vast majority of people play Age of Wonders 3 for. And with the addition of upcomming changes, more rng and such, i think this just supports my believe that its mainly about single player. As such randomness is very bad for competitive multiplay, but can be very fun for singleplayer.

    The devs decide on how to balance the game. Your assumption is erronous here for two reasons IMO: 1. The so called balance you see in SP is directly related to an AI that doesn’t use the vast majority of abilities, spells, tactics and strategies in the game. If this AI will be overhauled, as I assume it is constantly being improved, you will see this “balance” breaking apart and therefore there is a constant necessity of rebalancing the game. 2. Humans players, when combating other human players, are the proper arena to test balance because Human players will exploit everything that is at their disposal potentially. It is the devs job, among other things, to make sure everybody is happy – since they have been doing a pretty good job from the get go here I wouldn’t worry about their capacity to do so.

    Saying this, there have been many threads that discuss the MP / SP bias and so forth. I don’t want this thread to deviate to these issues as it is concerned with Dreadnought Balancing. I therefore ask that if you have points to raise, criticisms, remarks, comments or shouts regarding the topic at hand please post them here, but I do not intend to debate this point here as I got tired of doing so (this has nothing to do with you, so really don’t take this the wrong way -> I appreciate your participation).

    #116966

    Garresh
    Member

    I don’t play much besides rogue, but when I do play another class, its dreadnought. As is, engineers aren’t too bad, but its almost always better just to bring more firepower. The way I’ve been playing dreadnought for the last few months is to only build musketeers. I don’t build anything else. If facing hordes I may build a flame tank once every 10-15 turns, but otherwise musketeers all the way. I start building them on turn 12 at like 1/turn, while clearing and expanding and erecting forts while I keep getting all my empire upgrades for archers and armored to reduce costs. By turn 25-30 I’m building 2 muskets every turn. By turn 40 its 3. And then it rapidly scales upwards from there. Lategame I don’t build cannons, juggernauts, or flame tanks. I just build more muskets. I remember one game I was facing a sorc with a bunch stunning apprentices and like 8 eldritch horrors over 3 stacks. To this I say, why bother building 5-10 juggernauts when my product in and economy can support 40 muskets instead? Anyways to his 3 stacks I has 8 stacks of goblin muskets, and overwhelmed him.

    Not sure what everyone else thinks of this, but yeah I play dread and only build one unit. I’ve also never lost a single MP game as dread except once, to another goblin dread. 😉 Atm dreads are the best horde class in the game, just because goblin muskets are so incredibly cheap, and can alpha strike down t4s before they can react. Against conventional tactics they can bring 2-3x the numbers of an enemy army without being any worse off for it.

    #116971

    What about cities? Musketeers over walls aren’t amazing…

    I am wondering why that Sorc player didn’t bring along a tonne of Phantasm Warriors. Surely he could have matched you for numbers then, and that physical protection would have hurt?

    Also, you had 8 stacks against his 3, but I assume you basically had 4 against 3 and then the same again?

    I have had similar success with massing a tonne of Flamethrowers, but that is easier to counter :).

    I had similar success with a crapload of Elvish Horse Archers. That was fun. Infact, outside of cities any Horse Archer :). Granted less alpha strike potential, but it was fun.

    #117030

    Garresh
    Member

    @BBB Seeker. Even if it gets dispelled, I get one use per turn. If the enemy dispels every time, I get an extra 15-20 damaged per 10CP, and he runs out of casting points not having used a single spell. Those alpha strikes are enough to clear out all the best archers and put me in a good situation to use his walls against him. If they have trebs I just use seekered firebombs on my here with a good chance to ignite.

    I also take Fire adept for fireballs to have a nuke vs physical resistant enemies. If they start massing phantom warriors a flame tank may be in order, but keep in mind they can produce 1-1.5 per turn until ultra lategame. I have actually managed to be producing a single musket in 6 different cities every turn by as early as turn 60-65. Even if they’re physical resistant, oh noes. I just bring more guns. I mean they only cost like 62 gold. You can crank out a full stack for like 360 gold a turn. By that phase of the game that’s pretty manageable.

    #117033

    Garresh
    Member

    Actually it might be 68. Either way for the price of a typical t3 you get armored 45 hp units with 14 defense and a combined alpha strike of 90 damage…which is more than the health of a typical t3.

    #117059

    Ericridge
    Member

    What about cities? Musketeers over walls aren’t amazing…

    I am wondering why that Sorc player didn’t bring along a tonne of Phantasm Warriors. Surely he could have matched you for numbers then, and that physical protection would have hurt?

    Also, you had 8 stacks against his 3, but I assume you basically had 4 against 3 and then the same again?

    I have had similar success with massing a tonne of Flamethrowers, but that is easier to counter :) .

    I had similar success with a crapload of Elvish Horse Archers. That was fun. Infact, outside of cities any Horse Archer :) . Granted less alpha strike potential, but it was fun.

    Sure but, players will be hesitating to charge their units into that wall full of musketeers. And plus, its more safer to be on the walls, you’re given breathing space to reload. And if they chose to scale the walls, they’re more weaker on the ladders than being on stable ground. And if they funnel to one of three gates, you will have alot of time to shoot them to pieces as you spam repair wall spell.

    They don’t have that much of a range but anything that enters it will pay heavily. B/c its very likely it will die instead of being an adventurer like you were but then they took an arrow in the knee.

    You have pretty good fighting chance unless enemy army is all flyers. And flyers is usually tier 3.

    #117068

    Garresh
    Member

    He means musketeers attacking vs walls. And to that I say meh no big deal.

    #117076

    Draxynnic
    Member

    This is essentially what I’m comparing to when I oppose giving rapid reload a cooldown.

    If you need two engineers to service a machine, then for less cost you can get a musketeer. And that musketeer will probably do more for you, all things considered. The big machines draw a lot of attention, but used well the humble musketeer is frelling nasty.

    #117119

    terrahero
    Member

    I bag to differ, it is not about semantics and it is not a laundry list. If you don’t want to participate in the discussion because you feel its petty then that’s your prerogative again, but I invested a substantial amount of time making this thread and answering you and I think your new approach to the matter is a little belittling and disregards the points of the discussion.

    It doesnt feel that way. When i get double quoted responses that contain factual errors that i already pointed out in the post that quote was aimed again. Then yes, it feels like we’re argueing over petty things, worst we’re argueing some several times over.

    And where this whole discussion started with the idea that Theocrats and goblins are very boned against Dreadnought units. When a quick glance in the Tome of wonders revealed Theocrats dont even use all that much spirit based damage. Goblins might be a bit worst off, but i think thats a general issue with how common blight protection is.
    And a better solution here might simply be to make the goblin a little less reliant on Blight damage by shifting the damage channels a bit.

    And you cant sit here and say these are just minor changes. Repair Machine needs to get buffed to compensate for it getting a cooldown, which it needs because engineers should get it at a veteran medal, which they need because machines are going to be more vulnerable. And then a need to nerf rapid reload, etc etc.

    I know its not fun when someone suggests time you spend has been wasted. But i would advice you to take a step back and actually look at what the goal here even is.
    Because at this point we’ve gone from trying to fix a problem, one i am starting to seriously doubt is even real, into the realm of fixing the problems that arrise from the solutions to the initial problem.

    #117127

    ExNihil
    Member

    I have answered you in detail and with respect – referring to all the points you raised and your suggestions. If you want to discuss this with me you are welcome, if you want to “advice” me about the goals please stop.

    #117302

    Jyrgunkarrd
    Member

    …This thread is a joke, right?

    Dreadnought is right on par with Theocrat, competing for worst class in the game. Dreadnoughts are out-produced by anyone with T3 / T4 summonable units, becuase at best your cities can produce 1 Flametank per turn – and Flametanks are clumsy to use even when they’re at their best, and hit a brick wall in the late game, coming up against hard unit counters & AoE spells that do an outright better job than any number of tanks.

    The lategame is hilariously terrible. Not only are your tanks & juggernauts going to be outnumbered by things like Horned Gods & Eldritch Horrors, you have access to incredibly bad spells while they have access to war-winning AoE magic. Engineers are a non-starter, because all of your engineers will be dead after 1-2 turns.

    Dread has no firepower to match the mid to late game AoE spells. Juggernauts don’t even come close; they shoot too infrequently & impact a small area (plus, you produce one Juggernaut every 3 turns at your very, very best production cities. Most of the time you’ll be capping at 1 every 4 turns, vs 1 Eldritch Horror or Horned God every single turn).

    Dreadnought needs buffs, not nerfs. Huge, huge buffs. Maybe airstrikes or rocket barrages or something – stuff that can keep up with things like Chaos Rift, Hellfire, etc, without being horrendous & unusable like Unstable Mana Core.

    #117303

    Jyrgunkarrd
    Member

    …This thread is a joke, right?

    Dreadnought is right on par with Theocrat, competing for worst class in the game. Dreadnoughts are out-produced by anyone with T3 / T4 summonable units, becuase at best your cities can produce 1 Flametank per turn – and Flametanks are clumsy to use even when they’re at their best, and hit a brick wall in the late game, coming up against hard unit counters & AoE spells that do an outright better job than any number of tanks.

    The lategame is hilariously terrible. Not only are your tanks & juggernauts going to be outnumbered by things like Horned Gods & Eldritch Horrors, you have access to incredibly bad spells while they have access to war-winning AoE magic. Engineers are a non-starter, because all of your engineers will be dead after 1-2 turns.

    Dread has no firepower to match the mid to late game AoE spells. Juggernauts don’t even come close; they shoot too infrequently & impact a small area (plus, you produce one Juggernaut every 3 turns at your very, very best production cities. Most of the time you’ll be capping at 1 every 4 turns, vs 1 Eldritch Horror or Horned God every single turn).

    Dreadnought needs buffs, not nerfs. Huge, huge buffs. Maybe airstrikes or rocket barrages or something – stuff that can keep up with things like Chaos Rift, Hellfire, etc, without being horrendous & unusable like Unstable Mana Core.

    #117362

    Gloweye
    Member

    well, you can have 8 cities simultanously producing Juggernauts, giving 2/turn on average. so yes, you can out-produce summoning classes. Also, 1 Horned god/turn is pretty heavy – those things cost 250 CP. That means at least 10 Grand Palaces. And for every kind of heart you dont have, 1 more.

    #117413

    ExNihil
    Member

    …This thread is a joke, right?

    Nope, is your post a joke?

    Dreadnought is right on par with Theocrat, competing for worst class in the game.

    We haven’t played the same game my friend. Do a forum search for posts on the Dread being awefull – tell us what you find.

    Dreadnoughts are out-produced by anyone with T3 / T4 summonable units, becuase at best your cities can produce 1 Flametank per turn – and Flametanks are clumsy to use even when they’re at their best, and hit a brick wall in the late game, coming up against hard unit counters & AoE spells that do an outright better job than any number of tanks.

    At what stage of the game? You seem to forget the CP limitations and the fact you can summon only on a single channel – you can build units in cities much faster and with production buffs and units discounts you can do this very quickly.

    at best your cities can produce 1 Flametank per turn – and Flametanks are clumsy to use even when they’re at their best, and hit a brick wall in the late game, coming up against hard unit counters & AoE spells that do an outright better job than any number of tanks.

    Actually you can as dread produce any t3 unit within one turn with a well developed city. If you have the resource income for this, there is no reason why you can’t build multiple t3s per turn in several cities. There are very little hard counters to Dread machinery, when it is massed in diverse stacks (cannons and flame-tanks, and also juggs.)

    The lategame is hilariously terrible. Not only are your tanks & juggernauts going to be outnumbered by things like Horned Gods & Eldritch Horrors, you have access to incredibly bad spells while they have access to war-winning AoE magic.

    You seem to have some weird ideas about AoE spells. What are you talking about? chain lightning? Aside from this spell which only Sorcerer has you have access to sphere magic – AD Horner Swarm does not work against Machines. Same is true of Theocrat and Rogue damage spells. Warlord abilities are useless. So what is it? Also, every class has access to heroes from other classes, if what you are missing in a game is access to chain lightning – which in the “lategame” is really a rather minor factor, then you should level heroes.

    Dread has no firepower to match the mid to late game AoE spells. Juggernauts don’t even come close; they shoot too infrequently & impact a small area (plus, you produce one Juggernaut every 3 turns at your very, very best production cities. Most of the time you’ll be capping at 1 every 4 turns, vs 1 Eldritch Horror or Horned God every single turn).

    This is just plain wrong m8. Dread has much more AoE damage then all other classes pretty much. Juggernatus have very powerful attack when stacked and they impact as good an area as any AoE attack that doesn’t skip hexes (Call Ligtning, Fire Bomb) but with very nice dual channel damage. Finally, the only way you can summon 1 Eldritch Horror a turn is after casting Age of Magic, which is tier 7 magic and ultra-late game stuff. There is no way of getting 1xHorned god a turn without a shit load of Palaces and Glades as @gloweye asserted. If you are getting to this stage of the game, in SP, the Warlords in the bunch massacre every1 so I’ve been assured.

    Be that as it may, you seem to be really inapt at production I’m sorry to say: at 400 production units base, 360 production units after 10% discount, you can in all probability do 1 juggernaut every 3 turns in a well developed city with about 140-50 production. If you have a very good city with a few production structures in its domain, which is not very rare, you can clock 200 Production a turn as a Dreadnought. Thus a Juggernaut x 1 turn in a single city is really not impossible. Now consider the fact you will probably have multiple cities if you get to the stages of the game you are discussing, I see no problem making a shit load of units as Dreadnought.

    Dreadnought needs buffs, not nerfs. Huge, huge buffs. Maybe airstrikes or rocket barrages or something – stuff that can keep up with things like Chaos Rift, Hellfire, etc, without being horrendous & unusable like Unstable Mana Core.

    Aside from the Mana Core with which I agree to a certain extant, this is simply nonsense: The Dreadnought is the strongest production class, far outstripping Theocrat and Rogue and in almost all game circumstances also Warlord. It is also somewhat stronger then the AD at the moment because the AD has some IMBA units, a lot of which are simply shit (animals and so forth) for their rubric. The only class it is not stronger then is Sorcerer and the only reason for that is that Sorcerer is grossly IMBA and OP.

    #117513

    Garresh
    Member

    If dreadnoughts are themed around building things, then this thread truly represents the best dreadnought players: They’re building walls of text everywhere.

    #117515

    ExNihil
    Member

    Charming as always

    #117517

    ExNihil
    Member

    Nobody has anything constructive to discuss? E.g. any of the issues raised or other ones?

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