DWARF Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions DWARF Balance Discussion

This topic contains 161 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  Bob5 7 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #113212

    ExNihil
    Member

    OK Guys,

    Due to repeated public demand I am separating my Races and Classes thread into separate topics. I hope you will all participate :). My original idea was to discuss Races and Classes together in a way that could highlight the balance relations between them. I will try to inter-connect the different threads in a way that will do that, but I’m afraid there is no really good way to do it in a forum.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #113218

    ExNihil
    Member

    DWARFS

    Traits: +1 defense, +1 resistance, +20 blight resistance, +10% unit cost, mountaineering, night vision, cave crawling. Likes: Mountains, dislikes: Tropical, Hates: Blighted.
    Current Issues:

    1. Dwarves are the most buffed race in the game and their buffs are qualitatively stronger than those of other races. The +1 defense translates into very high stats for all units as Dwarves also possess the Armored trait, giving them +2 defense against all attacks without Armor Piercing (these attacks cancel the defensive bonus with +2 physical damage). The conjunction of these traits means that Dwarven units in effect receives between -2 to -3 damage against most physical attacks in comparison with Goblins and Draconians and have an average of +15% their resistance against negative physical effects (poison, bleeding, throw net, cobwebs and so forth). The +1 resistance means that they are as strong as elves in resisting elemental damage and spell/magical ability effects (mind control effects, blind, broken spirit, dazed and so forth). On top of this they receive +20% blight resistance, which makes them even stronger against the most common type of elemental damage in the game and more resistant to those effects that use Blight as a roll modifier (curse, poison, diseases, druid spells and so forth.) These traits make Dwarves extremely tanky, as it should be given their racial concept and if this was the extent of the Dwarfs buffs then they would’ve been balanced more or less as the +10% unit cost is an effective slow-down of military buildup in most map settings. Yet on top of these buffs they receive 2 movement buffs and 1 vision buff, with the movement buffs being arguably the best in the game: Mountaineering gives dwarves a huge advantage in most maps as they are the only race that can easily traverse mountains by receiving -8 movement cost on mountainous hexes and Cave Crawling effectively works on 1/2 of the map in games with UG because it reduces the movement cost on all land hexes in the UG by -2 from 6 to 4 – to which adds the night vision which makes them equal to Goblins* and superior to the other races in the UG.

    2. Some Dwarven units are over-powered and/or mis-priced:
    A. Forge Priests** are the only support unit in the game with the Armored trait, which gives them +3 defense in comparison with Orc, Human and Elven supports (races with the armored trait on other units) that do not have this trait. Their 12 defense and 12 resistance are better than those of some t3 units (Node Serpent, Toll, Spider Queens, Wraith King, Yeti and so on) and equal to those of Dwarven Evangelist and Shaman (t3 support units). On top of this they receive 100% fire resistance and the Lava Walking trait. Cost wise they simply cost 10% more than the other races support units – 77 gold and 22 mana in comparison to 70 gold and 20 mana.
    B. First-Born are the most buffed racial t3 unit (see the discussion regarding the Human Knight in my HUMANS post). They have 14 defense and 12 resistance, as par their racial traits, alongside 70 HP and the strongest attack with 15 physical / 3 fire (Orc Shock Trooper is at 16!). On top of these stats they receive no less than 7 extra abilities on top of their racial 20% blight resistance and mobility / vision upgrades: Lava Walking, Dragon Slayer, Giant Slayer, Tunneling, Mind Control Immunity, Wall Climbing and 100% Fire resistance. This is exceptional in comparison to Shock Trooper who gets 3, Gryphon Rider 2, Knight 2, Big-Beetle 4, Flyer 2. Given, these traits with the exception of Mind Control Immunity and 100% fire resistance are more situational than those of the Shock Trooper (Overwhelm, Tireless and Inflict Bleeding Wounds), but these two are already strong starting traits that combine with the other 5 situational traits and the racial traits to make it the most all-round powerful racial t3 unit in the game and definitely the strongest one in the UG. Price wise it costs (165g / 22m) 11% more production units then the Gryphon Rider (140g / 30m), Flyer (150g / 20m) and Shock Trooper (150g / 20m) and 5% more than a Human Knight (160g / 20m).

    Rebalance Suggestions:

    1. The problem with removing any of the Dwarven racial traits is of course a conceptual problem: Dwarfs are supposed to be extremely hardy, possess a super-human constitution and live within mountains, that is, underground. Saying that there is a clear need to remove one of their traits as at the moment Dwarven units are clearly superior to those of other races and the price differential is really insufficient to balance it out. I therefore suggest to remove the +1 resistance trait because of all traits it seems to be the least “Dwarven” of them all. Magical resistance is traditionally in fantasy games the domain of Elves, although in many games Dwarfs have one as well but this is not due to their magical nature but rather due to their “disbelief” in magic, which therefore incurs a malus to spell casting abilities in compensation. The mechanics here do not allow this manipulation and it would have had anyhow hurt the Dwarves more than intended by making them class biased. I therefore think that simplest solution y removing the +1 resistance will help in balancing them relative to other races and return something of the uniqueness of elves to the equation. I would also suggest that Dwarves receive as a disliked terrain Water – they are the most un-mariner race in the game and this should be reflected in their dislike for big bodies of waterways and oceans. If not – Wetlands will do just fine as well.

    2. Forge Priest: There are two solutions here – either to remove the armored trait from the Forge Priest incurring -2 defense in its stats or a significant increase in its price as currently it simply costs the racial extra 10% while giving a substantial bonus to capabilities in comparison with other support units. I further think there is absolutely no justification to give forge priest 100% fire resistance at baseline – they should not have more than 60% at most and perhaps receive additional 20%x2 in medals. Lava-Walking here is also excessive and I think it should be completely removed from this unit.
    First-Born: I think Dragon Slayer and Giant Slayer should be removed and the 100% fire protection should be nerfed to 60% for it to retain its present price while abiding by the idea that the Dwarven units are 10% more expansive because of their strong racial traits. Otherwise it should be at least 12 production units more expansive then at present which will make it 20% more expansive then Gryphon Rider / Flyer / Shock Trooper.

    * Some Dwarven units receive the Lava Walking trait like Draconians, which makes dwarfs actually the best all round race for UG maps.

    ** There was an entire thread dedicated to Forge Priests here and I agree with many things that were written there: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/i-have-a-problem-with-dwarf-forge-priests-

    #113375

    vota dc
    Member

    Lorewise the Firstborn should have fire strike, 100% fire protection, 100% blight protection, 50% spirit protection but being a T4! Before the patch they had 100% spirit protection so shrine could do nothing against them. After the nerf they received I think their base values are ok, the OP is about what they gain with medals!

    Inflict Immolation at bronze = chance to give 3 fire damage for 2 turns plus -3 attack, -1 defense and -1 resistance!
    Fire Aura at gold = every time they hit you strike for 5 fire damage and chance to iflict immolation!
    Effect were even stronger before patch…were -2 defense, resistance and attack.

    A fire giant get inflict immolation at GOLD!

    Now compare

    Gryphon and Flyer have
    Inflict bleeding wounds at bronze = chance to bleed (4 physical for 2 turns) that isn’t so powerful!
    Tireless at gold = well…that is very powerful

    Knight has
    Inflict crippling wounds at bronze = -12 movement….is quite weak for a T3, also this skill is more useful on a ranged unit
    Strong Will at gold = mind control immunity + 100% spirit protection….very very useful but won’t change much in a pure brawl (except against theocrat or golden dragon)

    Shock Trooper has
    Armor piercing at bronze = +2 damage against armored….really really weak for a T3. I guess because base skills are already powerful.
    Martial Arts at gold = +5 defense against counterattack and attack opportunity. Quite powerful, but overwritten if you play Warlord.

    Beetle Rider has
    Inflict Noxious Vulnerability at bronze = -2 resistance…..compare with immolation….immolation has a stronger effect even not counting the direct damage!
    Inflict Severly Poisoned at gold = is just like bleeding with the difference that if you LOSE the enemy won’t heal for 2 turns! Very weak for a gold t3 compared to the others. The weakest gold for sure.

    #113383

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    I think you did very well in your assessment of dwarves, the most popular mp race (or so I have heard). There is one thing that you don’t seem to know yet. The armored trait is actually purely a negative trait. The +2 defense have already been incorporated into the base defense of the unit. (I think this is a poor design choice, because everybody, including me, makes the mistake you made) So maybe you should reconsider your equations knowing that Armored does not give extra defense points.

    1) I largely agree with your arguments here but am tempted to say I would rather see the blight protection removed than the +1 resistance. Your idea about making the dwarves hating water theme more prevalent is great. Maybe a racial trait that increases the embark penalty would be sufficient.

    2) You hit the nail on the head here. Forge priests: Less fire protection, no lava walking. Firstborn: Less fire protection, slayer abilities on medals.

    #113389

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    I think personally its not so much that Dwarves need nerfs so much as the other Races need Buffs.

    Goblins are terrible in many ways.

    Orcs are terrible at range and vulnerable to mind control and all magic.

    Humans have nothing in their favor as Naval combat is basically non existant due to poor ships and how focused the game is in land combat.

    Besides Dwarfs the only two “playable” classes cuurrently are Draconians and Elves.

    I’m not saying Dwarves aren’t strong, cause they are but I think its more of the other three mentioned Races being too weak.

    #113427

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think you did very well in your assessment of dwarves, the most popular mp race (or so I have heard). There is one thing that you don’t seem to know yet. The armored trait is actually purely a negative trait. The +2 defense have already been incorporated into the base defense of the unit. (I think this is a poor design choice, because everybody, including me, makes the mistake you made) So maybe you should reconsider your equations knowing that Armored does not give extra defense points.

    I am aware of Armored being a negative trait but it is the justification for giving these units higher defense, hence my discussion of it :).

    1) I largely agree with your arguments here but am tempted to say I would rather see the blight protection removed than the +1 resistance. Your idea about making the dwarves hating water theme more prevalent is great. Maybe a racial trait that increases the embark penalty would be sufficient.

    It is a possibility indeed.

    #113431

    ExNihil
    Member

    Lorewise the Firstborn should have fire strike, 100% fire protection, 100% blight protection, 50% spirit protection but being a T4! Before the patch they had 100% spirit protection so shrine could do nothing against them. After the nerf they received I think their base values are ok, the OP is about what they gain with medals!
    Inflict Immolation at bronze = chance to give 3 fire damage for 2 turns plus -3 attack, -1 defense and -1 resistance!
    Fire Aura at gold = every time they hit you strike for 5 fire damage and chance to iflict immolation!
    Effect were even stronger before patch…were -2 defense, resistance and attack.

    You are correct that what happens on medals is almost obscene here, but I think already at baseline the First-Born are OP and under-priced. I wonder, what would your suggestions be?

    #113486

    Bouh
    Member

    Knight is underrated and his shield have been forgoten. Knight is second only to the shock trooper in melee. And first born slowness is underestimated. But this might be the priest meta again.

    #113492

    ExNihil
    Member

    you are in the wrong thread for knights and they have not been forgotten in the HUMANS thread.

    #113513

    2) You hit the nail on the head here. Forge priests: Less fire protection, no lava walking. Firstborn: Less fire protection, slayer abilities on medals.

    That would be fine for the forge priests: they should have to level up to fire immunity (or just cast guardian flames on each other) like everyone else. I would retain armored, though: they are forge priests, and it would be odd if they were unarmored.

    If further nerfing is needed after priest pushback, I’d just make it money wise. Dwarves are greedy, so an extra five percent (so they are 15% more expensive than any other support) would be enough.

    As for the Firstborn, I’d also just prefer a cost increase.

    I would also suggest that Dwarves receive as a disliked terrain Water – they are the most un-mariner race in the game and this should be reflected in their dislike for big bodies of waterways and oceans. If not – Wetlands will do just fine as well.

    well, if we are to do terrain, I’d say go big: make dwarves dislike fertile plains (the most common). The justification being that dwarves hate agriculture (unless it involves mushrooms), and don’t like to live in places where they have to farm for themselves.

    You could also give them a population growth malus, as Dwarves traditionally breed slowly.

    In any event, I’d say the dwarves weaknesses should be strategic while their advantages are tactical.

    #113520

    HereticSage
    Member

    I have to say though, Dwarven First Born have such bad movement, and are melee, that they are prone to being ganged up on, drained of their action points, and then killed. Or ranged down.

    Forge priests, however… http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/i-have-a-problem-with-dwarf-forge-priests-specifically/

    I called that shit out back in May, when people were railing against dwarves in particular for some reason. Movement (lack of, anyway) is a real weakness for melee. Not range as much though.

    Btw though guys, don’t suggest nerfing their pop growth. They already require more growth for everything.

    #113528

    ExNihil
    Member

    well, if we are to do terrain, I’d say go big: make dwarves dislike fertile plains (the most common). The justification being that dwarves hate agriculture (unless it involves mushrooms), and don’t like to live in places where they have to farm for themselves.

    You could also give them a population growth malus, as Dwarves traditionally breed slowly.

    In any event, I’d say the dwarves weaknesses should be strategic while their advantages are tactical.

    Interesting ideas! I think fertile plains to be disliked because of a hatred of agriculture is a bit less compelling then fear of water-bodies and so forth. Also, I always thought Dwarves liked their boar and potatoes, who knows….

    A population malus is definitely an option. I do though think their stats are excessive – they are too powerful relative to the other races in battle. Furthermore, I think elves should have the distinct position of being the race with the +1 resistance – this keeps them more unique and attractive.

    #113531

    Gloweye
    Member

    Lave Walking is nothing more than the result of 100% fire protection. Just give your hero 100 fire prot, and lava walking will follow

    General Dwarf:

    I like the ideas of increased embark penalty, but even higher unit costs and/or pop growth malus might work as well. also, pop growth will have huge impact in MP, as the pacing of a game is very important. If I get to town 3 turns before you, i’ll have that gold mine 3 turns longer. Furthermore, they have so many plus-sides that they could use a downside. ATM, worst downside it lower potential damage from crossbowman in comparison with other archers, and that difference decrease as the game progresses and the Tier numbers get higher. at no medal, they are just as good as other archers in late game, but they will remain weaker at gold.

    Forge Priest:
    I kinda agree with you. Lower fire prot to 60% to force them to use guardian flame if they want to go immune, and give them 2x 20% at bronze/gold medal. Maybe lower inherent defense by one. For the rest, general race nerf should do it.

    Firstborn
    Not so sure if im with you here. The 100% Fire immune should definitively stay, which takes our choice at lava walking. Thats just what the firstborn is. Also, the multi-channel damage should stay. However, plain Physical damage could be taken down a notch – 1 or 2 at the most. If this would not be enough, plain and simple increase cost.

    EDIT: dont like the like/dislike proposals. ATM, only climates are disliked, and only terrain features are liked, and I kind of like it so simple. Otherwise, a single tile could be disliked twice.

    #113534

    Interesting ideas! I think fertile plains to be disliked because of a hatred of agriculture is a bit less compelling then fear of water-bodies and so forth. Also, I always thought Dwarves liked their boar and potatoes, who knows….

    traditionally halflings (at least in the shire) didn’t like water, and liking boar/potatoes and liking to grow them are very different things (since dwarves make good metal, they usually trade for food stuff).

    I mean there would have to be a lot of water in underground pools and such, so it doesn’t seem very “Dwarfy” to me to dislike a common underground thing.

    #113538

    HereticSage
    Member

    Btw, has anyone thought of making forge priests lose 2 resistance instead of defense? Being 12/10 or 12/9 would be a bit of an interesting balance choice because then they’re weak to other supports instead of melee.

    #113540

    Btw, has anyone thought of making forge priests lose 2 resistance instead of defense

    I don’t think it really fits. Dwarves traditionally have high resistance and are tough to sicken, even above and beyond fire.

    Remember that Dwarves, unlike men, will not live longer when wearing rings, and don’t turn into wraiths.

    #113558

    HereticSage
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>HereticSage wrote:</div>
    Btw, has anyone thought of making forge priests lose 2 resistance instead of defense

    I don’t think it really fits. Dwarves traditionally have high resistance and are tough to sicken, even above and beyond fire.

    Remember that Dwarves, unlike men, will not live longer when wearing rings, and don’t turn into wraiths.

    Is that not covered by blight resistance? o.O

    #113561

    vota dc
    Member

    Knight is underrated and his shield have been forgoten. Knight is second only to the shock trooper in melee. And first born slowness is underestimated. But this might be the priest meta again.

    I did some tests with zero upgrades and no leader around about the gold medal t3. Usually the T3 that strike first win. But with gold medal knight vs gold medal firstborn the firstborn win with few hp, with much if the firstborn attack (but it doesn’t happen often). Usually the immolation kicked when was turn of the firstborn but could kick even earlier when the knight charged.
    So in a term of pure brawl the firstborn with medals seems superior while the basic version lose often against knight because charge.

    Gold medal firstborn vs gold medal shocktrooper, the shocktrooper strike first and win with few hp, otherwise firstborn win. Shocktrooper is faster so the scenario it wins is more likely. Didn’t test warlord firstborn vs warlord shocktrooper but I wonder if firstborn could win in both scenarios since they have both martial arts.

    #113571

    syntax_vi
    Member

    Dwarves are really well designed atm, and wouldn’t want to see much go away exept for possibly the reduction to forge priest resistance to fire.

    Otherwise I prefer cost increases (if needed) and/or the penalty on water/wetlands which fits them perfectly.

    Firstborn are fine, I feel, considering their slowness.

    #113574

    Is that not covered by blight resistance? o.O

    Its more a strong willed thing than blight (probably from eating mushrooms). Dwarves are described as “strong and unyielding” in the Silmarillion, and have the best mail making skills (thus the resistance and defense).

    #113579

    vota dc
    Member

    Firstborn are fine, I feel, considering their slowness.

    Well compared to shock troopers they move 1 tile less but
    1)bonus against dragon and giant (the second one works against some class troops)
    2)tunneling and lava walking (some tactical advantage)
    3)with fire aura even with 1 hp they damage you if you don’t use ranged attack
    4)Immune to mind control spell
    5)More useful against most class T4: bonus against the horned god, resistance to blight and immunity to the fear effect of eldritch horror, immunity to fire of shrine, immunity to fire of juggernaught, fire strike and very high chance to resist exhausting fatigue against shadow stalker

    And they have very high chances to win in a pure brawl against them!
    Knight and Shocktrooper are meant to be great brawler with huge weakness (lack of siege and pikeman weakness for knight, high chance to panic/immolate/sick and high elemental damage for shocktrooper), so they should always win against a firstborn unless they are silly and allow firstborn to strike first. That happens with raw units, but not with full medal units.

    #113588

    HereticSage
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>HereticSage wrote:</div>
    Is that not covered by blight resistance? o.O

    Its more a strong willed thing than blight (probably from eating mushrooms). Dwarves are described as “strong and unyielding” in the Silmarillion, and have the best mail making skills (thus the resistance and defense).

    Then the devs have to make a call. Lore or balance.

    #113630

    ExNihil
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>HereticSage wrote:</div>
    Is that not covered by blight resistance? o.O

    Its more a strong willed thing than blight (probably from eating mushrooms). Dwarves are described as “strong and unyielding” in the Silmarillion, and have the best mail making skills (thus the resistance and defense).

    Why are you answering using Tolkien and assume it holds validity to AoW3?

    Then the devs have to make a call. Lore or balance.

    They should indeed – Since this a game though and they want players to but it they should address balance ASAP. The MP community is shrinking very fast indeed.

    Well compared to shock troopers they move 1 tile less but
    1)bonus against dragon and giant (the second one works against some class troops)
    2)tunneling and lava walking (some tactical advantage)
    3)with fire aura even with 1 hp they damage you if you don’t use ranged attack
    4)Immune to mind control spell
    5)More useful against most class T4: bonus against the horned god, resistance to blight and immunity to the fear effect of eldritch horror, immunity to fire of shrine, immunity to fire of juggernaught, fire strike and very high chance to resist exhausting fatigue against shadow stalker

    And they have very high chances to win in a pure brawl against them!
    Knight and Shocktrooper are meant to be great brawler with huge weakness (lack of siege and pikeman weakness for knight, high chance to panic/immolate/sick and high elemental damage for shocktrooper), so they should always win against a firstborn unless they are silly and allow firstborn to strike first. That happens with raw units, but not with full medal units.

    Thanks for doing the tests! You should also Wyverns to the class units First Born have a bonus against (sorcerer and AD). In my experience there is no doubt they are the strongest racial t3 unit in game – although they lose to Shock Trooper at baseline with few hp difference with first strike as you wrote. They are useful for a longer period then the other t3s and can counter a much wider range of offenses and at gold medal they clearly outperform all other t3s.

    As such a simple price increase is insufficient atm – either the other t3 are brought to this level or this t3 needs to be a little nerfed while its price is increased. I would like to hear some proposals on how to go about doing that other then my own if you guys have ’em.

    #113779

    Bouh
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Bouh wrote:</div>
    Knight is underrated and his shield have been forgoten. Knight is second only to the shock trooper in melee. And first born slowness is underestimated. But this might be the priest meta again.

    I did some tests with zero upgrades and no leader around about the gold medal t3. Usually the T3 that strike first win. But with gold medal knight vs gold medal firstborn the firstborn win with few hp, with much if the firstborn attack (but it doesn’t happen often). Usually the immolation kicked when was turn of the firstborn but could kick even earlier when the knight charged.<br>
    So in a term of pure brawl the firstborn with medals seems superior while the basic version lose often against knight because charge.

    Gold medal firstborn vs gold medal shocktrooper, the shocktrooper strike first and win with few hp, otherwise firstborn win. Shocktrooper is faster so the scenario it wins is more likely. Didn’t test warlord firstborn vs warlord shocktrooper but I wonder if firstborn could win in both scenarios since they have both martial arts.

    Your tests negates completely the mobility disadvantage of the firstborn. This disadvantage can be exploited both tacticaly and strategicaly by any T3 but machines.

    Also, the first unit to strike being the winner will be true for most T3 units. And considering medals is highly unreliable IMO after the first one.

    BTW priests slowness is a weakness too completely ignored in this priests meta, and I suspect this slowness decrease the impact of the slowness drawback of the firstborn.

    In AoW2, people knew the importance of mobility to the point races with no fast T3 units were deemed underpowered and not used in MP. It seems this importance is now completely forgoten.

    PS : I think there should be more discussions about strategies and tactics and less about balance on these forums.

    #113789

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    I think the best solution to dwarfs is to increase the cost to a 15%, this was suggested in an now old thread i made regarding dwarven class units and their benefits. I never thought 10% was enough considering how potent some class units become, the racial units sure are good as well, especially forge priests. At least it could be tried out in a beta patch to see how it works.

    #113823

    ExNihil
    Member

    Can someone bring the unit prices for dwarves in comparison to the other races here? If not I will do it later. I suspect Dwarven units do not actually cost 10% more then those of Elves / Humans / Orcs / Draconians. Furthermore, building prices remain the same in Dwarven cities. If this were changed then the traits of Dwarves would be in balance IMO. This will nonetheless not solve the situation with the Forge Priests / First-Born which are OP relative to the other races and while factoring their price.

    pop growth will have huge impact in MP, as the pacing of a game is very important. If I get to town 3 turns before you, i’ll have that gold mine 3 turns longer. Furthermore, they have so many plus-sides that they could use a downside.

    A -10% pop-growth could be a nice malus but it wouldn’t make a dramatic difference in most games, although in Settler games and so forth it will be more important. My preference for removing the +1 resistance trait though remains as in my opinion this should be a distinct Elven trait on the one hand, and on the other Dwarves are too powerful combat wise ATM relative to the other races.

    This was written in another thread by @chrysophylax páuperem:

    Any way, armor piercing goes better with the crossbow than the longbow, especially since the dwarf crossbow is otherwise underwhelming.

    I think it only makes since to give the Dwarven Crossbowman the armor piercing trait – if the unit price is adjusted to the proper 10% (its currently priced like a human archer).

    #113863

    syntax_vi
    Member

    Dwarves are already the pickiest settlers, as you cannot terraform terrain to your liking (as with all other classes) so they do grow quite a bit slower.

    #113870

    Why are you answering using Tolkien and assume it holds validity to AoW3?

    well, AOW III is generally Tolkien like, except where it isn’t. The Dwarves seem to be the most Tolkien like race at the minute, as each of the other races have traits that differentiate them.

    humans seem to be the most spirit plugged in, but are also the most technological, Orcs and Goblins aren’t inherently evil and are being oppressed by humans/working with High Elves, the High Elves are much more ruthless and short sighted, and Draconians are an entirely non Tolkien element.

    The Dwarves are just the Dwarves. Not this is a criticism; the Dwarves were in some ways the most mysterious and least filled in of the major races, so there is still a lot to get out of the old model.

    Furthermore, building prices remain the same in Dwarven cities. If this were changed then the traits of Dwarves would be in balance IMO

    That would be a quite good change, as it would make Dwarf Sorcerer or Rogue somewhat less attractive, and make Dwarf Dreadnought and Warlord more important.

    I figure armor piercing will make crossbowmen tolerably useful at fighting low tier armored units, and decent against machines (especially the flame tank, that lacks reinforced).

    In addition, you could add one or two fire damage at a high rank medal, so they have late game viability.

    #113886

    vota dc
    Member

    Your tests negates completely the mobility disadvantage of the firstborn. This disadvantage can be exploited both tacticaly and strategicaly by any T3 but machines.

    Also, the first unit to strike being the winner will be true for most T3 units. And considering medals is highly unreliable IMO after the first one.

    Machines without fire attack are great against Firstborn, they are the only counter since they are so slow….but trebuchets kite less, right? So a pike for 4, elemental strike or spell for the orc t3 while the “specialized” unit in tunneling and high level creeping (two slayer perks+two immunities+protection) has just knights and shock troopers as counter?

    Anyone want to try how are T3 battles works with just bronze? There should be half check for immolate, but a little more chance since there is 1 resistance less. The foes like flyer, gryphon and shocktrooper lack important skill compared to gold (tireless and martial arts), knight should be tougher than gold (firstborn lack fire aura while knight gain no useful for a brawl skill at gold), beetle whatever happens is fried since the enemy has 60% blight protection.

    #113887

    ExNihil
    Member

    @vota dc,

    How would you nerf the first born I’m curious?

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