Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!

This topic contains 22 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 7 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #115606

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hey Guys,

    Yes, it me again :). Anyhow, there has been a discussion in the RMG, UG and MAP Elements Discussion thread that I think should be a bit wider. I will hence post it here and see what you guys think.

    Original Thread: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    @snezak Wrote:

    So, neutral dwellings (Dragons, Giants, Fairies etc…)! Alot of people like to disable them in MP games, because they tend to create really, ummm difficult situations between and to the players.
    Basically, I consider the neutral dwellings to be the highest luck-roll in the game, you find a dwelling and you either get lucky and offered a quest in it, or you buy it out, and then you get one of the easiest ways to make T3-T4 units. Of course this is all if you get lucky with it, or if you have enough money, and also the random factor of the dwelling becoming hostile or friendly to you.

    One of the biggest complaints I have for the current mechanics of the dwellings, is how easy it is to get them. You would think that getting a dwelling that can potentially produce T3-T4 units will require considerable effort, and that it would be intended for late-game, but no, all it takes is a roll of dice. For example, I had a game where my capitol was put no far from giants dwelling, and upon meeting them they were friendly to me, about at turn 10 they offered me to kill an Eldrich Horror, as a rewards they offered me a fire giant, and some money, now with all respects I had a starting army mainly composed of T1-T2′s and 2 heroes, I kill the Horror, and lost 3 units… but I got a T4 unit! Surprisingly enough, the Giants offered me another quest several turns after the first one, I think it was to kill an undead Dragon or 2, the reward this time was 2(!) Giants and the dwelling itself, I killed the Dragons, lost the priest unit I had and a hero, with my fire giant just wounded and my leader almost dead… ouch? Nah I got 2 freakin T4 units! Plus a dwelling that I immediately started to upgrade to produce more giants! And all of that was by turn 15, 3 T4 units by turn 15!

    You get where I’m going with this? You could say I was EXTREMELY lucky, and it can’t happen every game, but, it CAN happen, and that kinda ruins the whole progression of the game, IMO it’s even worst than Inns! Inns at least are alot more reliable than dwellings, the only ‘luck’ involving an Inn is how close it is to your capital.

    Here’s a few solutions:
    1. Make neutral dwellings un-buyable, frankly it seems kinda silly to me lore-wise, that ancient dragons or proud giants are… you know? Hookers for gold?

    2. Strengthen the defending units of the dwelling, either by giving more defending units, or by having the defending structures (Fangir’s Stone Ward, Fire Dragon Ward etc…) for the dwelling be active until the dwelling is captured. That insures that the dwelling wont be captured prematurely.

    3. Making the dwelling offer a chain quest, for example: 1st quest (Easy) reward: Gold and/or Mana. 2nd quest (medium): Gold and T2/T3 unit or a strong/epic item. 3rd quest (hard): a T4 or a legendary item. 4th quest (very hard): the dwelling + a T4 unit or mythical item. That will put the player into a position when he will have to work for the good stuff.

    Right now, I prefer not to play games with neutral dwellings in it, cuz of the dice roll on it, and it’s shame really, because disabling the neutral dwellings is just like disabling a good portion of the game, where you can get unique units and some interesting battle scenarios.

    To which I replied:

    I agree. This came up in the Rebalance of Existing Elements thread as well. There is a need to limit the rewards relative to the game turn. I’m qouting from what @techno Suggested:

    I think that reward depended on game time and alignment between different dwellings can help the current situation.
    Reward example: normal game speed, average start

    1- turn – 3(T)1 units
    15-30 turn – 2(T2) units
    30-40 turn – 1(T3) + 1(T2)
    40+ turn – 1 T4
    Thus in the very early game the maximum reward a dwelling will drop will be a few t1 units. later it will drop some t2s and in late-mid game it will drop t3s. Only in early late-game will it drop t4 units.

    All of your suggestions are good as well. I would like to see both yours and @techno‘s implemented.

    I would like to add here another issue: Taverns. The tavern rush strategy is simply to easy to implement. I think it should take them longer to stock and to offer certain units. And I think the unit prices should be differential.

    Example:

    turn 1-15, tavern has 3xt1 units and 1xt2 unit
    turn 16-25, tavern receives an additional 2xt1 units and 1xt2 unit
    turn 25-40, tavern receives an additional 2xt1 units, 2xt2 units and 1xt3 unit
    turn 40+, tavern refreshes every 10 turns with 3xt1, 2xt2 and 1xt3

    These units wouldn’t stock up indefintely, there will be a hard limit – say 4xt1, 2xt2 and 1xt3, so additional units in every tier will appear only if the previous ones were bought out.

    As for prices – I will put 3 examples:

    t1 units, price is 1.5x gold the production cost (mana+gold) rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5

    High-Elf Archer: 115g
    Human Archer: 105g
    Swarm Darter: 95g

    t2 units, price is 1.75x gold the production cost (mana+gold) rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5:

    Black Knight: 175g
    Human Cavalry: 160g
    Warg Rider: 140g

    t3 units, price is 2x gold the production cost (mana+gold) rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5:

    First Born: 375g
    Gryphon Rider: 340g
    Big-Beetle: 360g

    Finally, I think taverns should also sell support units (priests, elders etc.) – this can really diversify the game and change some situations.

    I think the price should be 200% the production cost of the unit as a minimum rather

    Regarding Taverns I think that if it would take them time to stock it would definitely be better then the current situation. I dont think a tavern should have more then 3 units at game start, and there should only be a small chance per turn that a new unit will appear with a cool-down period that stops the entire stocking process after units are being bought. I definitely wouldn’t want to see a t3 unit in a tavern for the first 10-15 turns at all and when one is bought there should be a cooldown period of 10-15 turns before there is a chance of a unit appearing again.

    Here Snezak pointed out that he has already posted on taverns a long while back in steam, so you guys can check this out too (you’ll note that @bloodybattlebrain apparently had a similar idea a while back):
    http://steamcommunity.com/app/226840/discussions/0/522728813998171289/

    Furthermore it would be nice if the unit composition of bandit groups as well as their size will scale as the game progresses. There is a spawn-timer at work atm, I think in the first 5 turns bandit’s dont spawn, the around turn 10 animals/monsters spawn and around turn 20 undead spawn. But this timer seems to have very little effect on the composition and size of the spawned roaming groups. I think it would be very cool if in early game only small groups of bandits would spawn, but if the camps are left to exist these will grow and their composition will include increasingly stronger units – I dont mean up to t4 state, but perhaps include some t2/3 units. For instance, at some point if monster dens are allowed to exist trolls and ogres should start roaming the country side.

    I’d be very happy for some input and community discussion.

    #115612

    What I don’t understand is why there are never large armies of bandits, and why they don’t get higher tier units, like Assassins.

    Why can’t a bandit camp at, say, turn 20+ or 30+, grow in size and gain at least one assassin in it?

    Also, why are there never huge battles for various resource nodes?
    Okay, maybe not huge, but at least against a full six-unit army?

    #115614
      Graded quests from dwellings (i.e. more quests before you get free t4 units or the dwelling).

      Timer on Inn units

      Different Inn unit composition

      More randomised defenders of locations

      Upgrading roaming independents as the game goes on.

    These are either already in the coming patch or on Sikbok’s list iirc. In other words, already being addressed in some capacity.

    #115615

    Althea
    Member

    I’ve been waiting for thread like this. Finally some love for dwelling or neutral creatures.

    I have no comment regarding tavern, so i’ll focus on dwelling units only.

    Ok, i have to disagree regarding dwellings.

    First, i think the solution proposed above won’t work. Why? even if it’s not buyable or the quest is delayed, you can conquer the dwelling easily, even dragon one, which solution point 2 address well, or is it?

    If you up the starting army, like changing the game flow to adventure mode, fire/frost dragon ward won’t be enough to stop you from conquering it as early as possible.

    But i think this is not fully the dwelling system’s fault. It’s the dragons or giants themselves that are too weak in my opinion, especially if you look at their lore. Their lore clearly describe them be very powerful than what you taste when you actually get them in game or face them in game. I don’t get that sense of terror/fear/despair when meeting giant or dragon in this game.

    I apologize if i bring other game to the table. Because i feel that high tier neutral dwelling in this game seems rather unpolished. Out of modern games that is similar like AoW3, i think that only Warlock MotA and Fallen Enchantress series can be compared to AoW3 (Eador is more of tactical turn based RPG to me so it’s out). Of all these 3 games, i think the only game most successful in implementing high tier neutral dwelling is fallen enchantress, warlock is not so successful because there are better non neutral units that is better than the neutral, AoW 3 is still more successful than Warlock in this case. So i’ll compare AoW3 with FE.

    If we take a look at FE, powerful neutral is limited in number, but they are very super powerful, in AoW3 it’s only limited by our empire wealth but they are not that overpowered compared to other T4, in these two aspect (unit capability and unit availability) we can’t really compare them, because both games use different approach. But if we bring one more aspect that define what is a neutral unit, the aspect of time needed to get these units, in this one aspect, FE is more stable, while AoW3 seems more unpolished and chaotic.

    Let’s compare dragons, because both has dragons, giants and fairies in AoW3 doesn’t exist in FE, so dragons it is.

    First we will compare what happens if you get it, second, we will compare what happens if you battle it.

    In FE, Dragons is always very hard to get, no LUCK factor involved, it is only available if you research the final tech, yes the very last tech in one of three tech tree, and then you must find the dwelling, and then you must pay the price to get it. And you only get a maximum of one dragon per dwelling, the largest map can have a maximum of 4 dwellings. But they area very overpowered, one dragon is enough to defeat the largest map with maximum AI at the hardest difficulty setting (insane difficulty), yes one dragon, just one, actually if your city are all captured, but you have 1 dragon and your leader/sovereign, you can turn the table into total victory. It may sounds very overpowered, but it’s worth it, it’s very hard to get, but very rewarding when you are able to get it.

    In AoW3, is depends on when you get the dragons, if you get it too early, they are overpowered, if you get it later, there is a sense that they’re not worth it, and not so rewarding compared to FE, unless you use specific class (theocrat armageddon + gold dragon). But you can get more than 1 dragon, you can have as many as you like as long as you can pay them.

    But, a big but here.

    In FE, you stand no chance against dragon in early game, 0% chance to win.

    In AoW3, you can defeat dragon at early game, albeit with some sacrifice, but the sacrifice is so minimal compared to what you can get, to the point that the sacrifice is irrelevant.

    Thus dragons in FE is constantly strong as opponent, overpowered as ally. Early,mid or late game doesn’t matter they always stay the same.

    In AoW 3, it depends on luck. In early game they are overpowered as ally but easy as opponent which is game breaking, in late game they are rather worthless as ally but much easier as opponent, not game breaking but this make them irrelevant, why add dragon dwelling at all if it’s not going to be used. Early, mid or late game, they are not welcomed, so why add this feature if no one welcome it.

    That’s why i believe this problem should be taken into at least moderate amount of consideration.

    Now, i’d like to say my input for the solution.

    Change the dragon quest that give dragon into giving eggs, that will hatch on 10 or 5 turns, like in previous age of wonders. This egg will hatch into a weak T1 baby dragon, which upon reaching gold medal becomes adult T4 dragon.

    But it seems more of a annoyance if the dragon capability is not buffed, therefore it’s capabilities must be buffed, make dragon T5 or T4.5 . This will also make conquering dragon dwelling harder, the number of dragon defenders can be increased if needed.

    And when the dwelling is conquered, the dragon lairs produce two type of units, adult dragons or eggs, the cost of adult dragon can be increased if its capabilities is buffed to T5 or T4.5. But i suggest limiting the number of adult dragons that can be bought, which will replenish over time.

    This way, dragons will be a lot harder to get in early game, but also a lot more challenging to fight, but also a lot more rewarding when you get it in late game.

    This can also be applied to giant, add young giant in place of baby dragon or something like that. Giant doesn’t need to start in egg state because they are less powerful than dragons (lorewise). Though like dragons, there is still an option to buy the adult one.

    #115625

    Gloweye
    Member

    I like the Dragon Hatchlings, but I think that the current problems could be resolved by simple a hard limit on how early dwellings will offer to become part of your empire/their rewards, and to increase the starting guards of the dwellings. Im talking 4 Full dragons on guard. there’s no way your army of T1/2’s is gonna conquer that…

    #115627

    Ericridge
    Member

    Hold on Althea, that’s where you’re wrong there.

    Last year, I fielded an army of eight storm dragons plus my sovereign. It was most powerful army I ever fielded. Eight fears + multiple dragon breaths plus spell support from my commander sovereign. I had huge stroke of luck on that map, there was bunch of dragon dwellings plus quests that basically gave me dragons. But before I put all of them in a single army to deal with last city that inexplictably gave me some trouble because pariden somehow managed to get a full stack of epic level troops defending it so my dragons which was out solo wiping entire armies and razing cities to the ground united in a single army to deal with that pariden capital last. >.>

    It takes extraordinary amount of luck to dodge eight fears in a row unless you’re immune to it.

    And I have crushed dragons early game in FE:LH by hitting the autoresolve button with my armies even when they’re still using basic spears. That’s because autoresolve is very insane in FE:LH.

    Basically dragon attack one then sit there and do nothing while your soldiers slowly hack it to death.

    While it spits out results where my all knight army with total of over nine thousand hp die to a small group of six level 3 shrills. >_>

    #115631

    FiReFTW
    Member

    Dwellings should be stronger and harder to conquer.

    #115643

    Althea
    Member

    First, i know that auto resolve issue, FE source code is said to be rather weird compared with most 4X i know, but it’s stardock style of since galactic civilization. But, i don’t consider it as an legal way to beat dragon. The only way to beat it legally in early game is using customized sovereign with specific magic school, or use one that has Death or Life magic.

    But even that is not in insane difficulty, the hardest difficulty of FE LH.

    In insane difficulty, if i remembered right the weakest dragon have around 700 health, ashwake dragon (the strongest dragon in the game), even has almost 900 or 800 health. No armies at early game can take down such a creature in early game, really, unless you cheat.

    Even the master quest victory are almost always avoided by veterans who plays Insane/Insane difficulty due to the final boss waerloga the dragonlord has almost 1k health, and he is buffed even stronger than the last time i tried FE LH (when his health is close to 1k). Veterans like to use custom sovereign and custom faction, which i never did even once, because i hate custom sov and faction due to their overpoweredness, so i have no experience regarding custom sov/faction.

    Either your memory is hazy, or you use mods, or you just exaggerated, there is no way there is 8 dragon lairs even in the largest map setting. And the only quest that give dragons only give 1 ashwake dragon. Unless there is a screenshot to prove this 8 dragons. Though i don’t really care about that. Because whatever the fact about our statements regarding FE, it’s irrelevant, because it still prove one fact, dragons in FE is constantly strong as opponent, overpowered as ally but is balanced by their availability. Early,mid or late game doesn’t matter they always stay the same.

    Let’s switch to AoW3 again.

    I have captured Dragon Peak in this game as early as turn 4, i admit the game pace setting in RMG Setup is set to adventure, it give me stronger starting unit than the default setting. There’s no way this can happen in FE LH because no matter which setup and settings we use there is no way it can happen. Not just because the settings doesn’t exist, yes i know it’s partially because of that, but the other factor is partially because the dragons power in that game is overpowered, compared to AoW3. In AoW3, dragons is weaker and there is a setting that increase your starting army strength.

    But, again a big but.

    As i said it’s, AoW 3 and FE LH use different approach. So we can’t compare this policy on how they do their dragons, both are right or both are wrong, it’s irrelevant.

    Now let’s assume we use your suggestion, more dragons guarding it, let’s say 6 dragons, by the time you can capture the dragon dwelling and is able to make use of it by buying your first few dragons, you can use your resource to get a decisive advantage over your opponent or even win the game instead of capturing that dragon peak. Because it’s just no different than using your resource for your own T4, dragons are just slightly stronger than your T4, so why waste resource on dragons if your T4 can fill almost the same role, this just makes dragons/giants like cosmetics added to the game for added flavor.

    On the other hand, if you are losing the game, very losing the game, almost to the point of total hopeless situation, but you’re able to capture dragon dwelling and is able to buy one or even a few dragons, you will still lose the game, or is able to turn the table but slowly.

    Compare to FE, even if you have no city, as long as you have 1 dragon, you still have a high chance to win the game. Yes even epic army is easy in insane/insane, cast growth (+50% atk if i remembered right) on storm dragon plus ally of the waste (or something i forgot the name), will make your storm dragons have around 70 or 80 attack, a single breath attack to AI armies (In FE we always face AI, no multiplayer) even epic army, will totally one hit kill it, the breath attack can easily reach more than 1k damage, the best possible outcome for the AI is their units are left with low health or dying, which reduce their offensive power greatly, the next turn a tail sweep attack from the dragon will finish them all, unless they has fire protection, but the major flaw of the AI is they almost never use that due to using their crystal for other things, but even if they use it, crystal is hard to amass, while fire protection units cost insane amount of crystal, so the AI won’t have many of it, meaning the chance of this happening is very extremely low.

    Let’s go back to AoW3 again.

    i don’t say that your suggestion is wrong, it’s just it actually hamper the late game situation regarding top tier dwelling (dragon/giant).

    And there is two way to get dragons, first diplomatically, second by war. The problem of the diplomatic way is i can get dragons from quest as early as turn 16 (my personal experience) if i am very lucky, some people perhaps has even got it sooner than that. Increasing the timing is a sound solution, but again, it actually hamper the late game situation regarding dragons. Like what i explained above.

    What i mean is, the later we get dragon or giant, the less useful they are, if we get it early or in mid game, they are overpowered.

    By increasing the difficulty to get dragons without increasing its capabilities just make them less relevant and less useful than ever. You want to make them harder to get, you should make them stronger and better, lest they are just cosmetics. This is also apply to giants as well.

    #115681
      Graded quests from dwellings (i.e. more quests before you get free t4 units or the dwelling).

      Timer on Inn units

      Different Inn unit composition

      More randomised defenders of locations

      Upgrading roaming independents as the game goes on.

    These are either already in the coming patch or on Sikbok’s list iirc. In other words, already being addressed in some capacity.

    Does that last one apply to independents who technically aren’t roaming but just sitting in their camp/node/tower/whatever?

    #115689

    Ericridge
    Member

    Well, don’t worry I did manage to get eight storm dragons in a single map on FE:LH just don’t beat your self up saying its’ impossible because it did really happen to me once last year when I was still a newbie. And no there was no mods used beyond an customized sovereign and faction from ingame options.

    And no, i don’t have a screenshot of it, I was a newb and thought it was nothing special until i ratcheted up several other hundred hours and never happened again.

    Although it is very possible that my memory became hazy >.>

    And nah, late game troops can withstand a critical flame breath although why risk that when you can just use earth’s cloak and be immune XD

    Also, dragons in FE:LH is very powerful because of their really strong breath attacks, i find their melee attacks and other spells to be weak except for the breath attacks and Fear spell.

    The earliest I begin my dragon slayings is when I get boar spear + leather armor at minimum. Although there were times where I just suicided alot of militia armies in a single turn when Dragons is guarding the only iron nodes that’s nearby to me. >.>

    I have to say that Dragons way better in AOW3 in my opinion. You actually go out of your way to obtain dragons while dragons in FE:LH is pretty much just picked up on your way. I never found out omg I NEED DRAGON ASAP in fe;lh while i do on aow3 xD

    Its just that FE:LH and AOW3 is very different games. An really early dragon supporting you is very powerful in both games. Late game, their power is diminished just simply because there is alot of stuff to kill but still doesn’t change their effectiveness, the fact they’re getting nuked alot should be telling.

    And in Late game, dragons and giants still have one benefit, their immunity to elements which will allow you to blast off killer spells without worrying to finally bring the maps to their conclusion one way or other.

    Final battle on this map were Saridas vs my dreadnought.

    He cast Static Electricity against my Six fire giants, I chose to stay out of reach because of the static elecrity and proceed to cast hellfire.

    Then he cast chaos rift, and I cast hellfire again and finished him off for once and all.

    And plus, role of dragons and giants can easily be used for to smash an really hard to destroy city at last. Dragons can bypass walls and let breaths loose while giants have enough hp and toughness to stay in place to make walls crumble and charge in the breach.

    About dwellings, I can agree that they can be pretty easy to take over.
    They were buffed recently so that Dragon’s Peak will have two dragons and four wyverns plus giant’s keep will have two giants and four ogres.
    That alone is enough to delay an assault on them for several dozen turns to the point where you would rather do the quest to obtain a fire dragon etc xD

    Well dunno…. I’m always excited to get an giant or dragon.. even an archon titan as well. Because I can feel the boost in power even during late game unless I already have broken the AI’s armies.

    #115696

    ExNihil
    Member

    What I don’t understand is why there are never large armies of bandits, and why they don’t get higher tier units, like Assassins.

    Why can’t a bandit camp at, say, turn 20+ or 30+, grow in size and gain at least one assassin in it?

    Also, why are there never huge battles for various resource nodes?<br>
    Okay, maybe not huge, but at least against a full six-unit army?

    You occasionally do get an army of 6 roaming units. You don’t get assassins cause they would probably damage you more then is wanted on autocombat. The biggest battles you get on nodes are of 4 units which include 1 or 2 t3 unit(s) – early game thats quite hard TBH, and I wouldn’t want it to be harder. Also, you have different grades of treasure site from common to mythical and the stack strength there is directly derived from this parameter.

    Your question though compels me to think it might be a good idea to add a configurable option for how strong map independents will be in general. Hence on high setting a gold mine will have 5 t1 units in average, very high it would be 6, and very low it would be 1. with average being the current.

    Graded quests from dwellings (i.e. more quests before you get free t4 units or the dwelling).
    Timer on Inn units

    Different Inn unit composition

    More randomised defenders of locations

    Upgrading roaming independents as the game goes on.

    I’m glad to hear it. I think though that the quest timer for dwellings is critical for balanced game-play, and also the price differential in inn units. What do you say?

    First, i think the solution proposed above won’t work. Why? even if it’s not buyable or the quest is delayed, you can conquer the dwelling easily, even dragon one, which solution point 2 address well, or is it?

    Well, I don’t have a problem with trying to conquer a Dragon’s dwelling – if you succeed its gonna take you a long while and a lot of resources until you’ll manage to produce Dragons. I do think the overall stack power needs to be perhaps a bit stronger to prevent this – perhaps start with more power 2-3 dragon + 2-4 wyvern main stack, then it will not be conquerable until you got several stacks.

    Change the dragon quest that give dragon into giving eggs, that will hatch on 10 or 5 turns, like in previous age of wonders. This egg will hatch into a weak T1 baby dragon, which upon reaching gold medal becomes adult T4 dragon.

    But it seems more of a annoyance if the dragon capability is not buffed, therefore it’s capabilities must be buffed, make dragon T5 or T4.5 . This will also make conquering dragon dwelling harder, the number of dragon defenders can be increased if needed.

    And when the dwelling is conquered, the dragon lairs produce two type of units, adult dragons or eggs, the cost of adult dragon can be increased if its capabilities is buffed to T5 or T4.5. But i suggest limiting the number of adult dragons that can be bought, which will replenish over time.

    Well, I disagree. I think Dragon’s are great t4 units – up to par with Eldritch Horror for instance. I am really against the t4.5 or t5 idea in any thread I encounter it (there were a few, c the Warlock thread for instance) and I don’t think that unbalancing a high end unit respective to the existing t4 units will help any game element (dwellings for instance). As for the eggs idea – I’m quite sure this is not pragmatic as the dev team will simply not create all of these new units in the foreseeable future. Thus I’d say a simple solution using the existing mechanics and content will be best.

    #115766

    Althea
    Member

    Well, don’t worry I did manage to get eight storm dragons in a single map on FE:LH just don’t beat your self up saying its’ impossible because it did really happen to me once last year when I was still a newbie. And no there was no mods used beyond an customized sovereign and faction from ingame options.

    And no, i don’t have a screenshot of it, I was a newb and thought it was nothing special until i ratcheted up several other hundred hours and never happened again.

    Although it is very possible that my memory became hazy >.>

    And nah, late game troops can withstand a critical flame breath although why risk that when you can just use earth’s cloak and be immune XD

    Also, dragons in FE:LH is very powerful because of their really strong breath attacks, i find their melee attacks and other spells to be weak except for the breath attacks and Fear spell.

    The earliest I begin my dragon slayings is when I get boar spear + leather armor at minimum. Although there were times where I just suicided alot of militia armies in a single turn when Dragons is guarding the only iron nodes that’s nearby to me. >.>

    I have to say that Dragons way better in AOW3 in my opinion. You actually go out of your way to obtain dragons while dragons in FE:LH is pretty much just picked up on your way. I never found out omg I NEED DRAGON ASAP in fe;lh while i do on aow3 xD

    Probably highly possible for 8 dragon lairs if you play the largest map with 1 or few AI enemies. I always played with full AI enemies the map allowed, probably why most of the time i saw just 3 lairs, sometimes 2, other times 4, not counting the ashwake dragon quest.

    About late game army withstanding dragon breath, not all of them can do that, and AI certainly never cast nature cloak even once, they even almost never use the unlocked gears from magic tech tree that boost fire resistance, but even so, unless you’re Magnar, there is now way to get 100% fire resistance from gear alone, i repeat, gear alone, no spell buff, and i’m talking about units, not champions/heroes.

    The only armies that can withstand 1 dragon breath late game is those that focus on melee and having a high health, like Ythril or Gilden. Other faction can’t really do that, unless you play the game too long and allow the AI to have armies that is around lv 20 or 30.

    Actually, i need to do 2 breath attacks against gilden army if it’s at high level, but it’s still easy and feel cheap, just do 1 breatk attack, then run the dragon to the corner of the map, the army will try to get close, but before they even get close another breath attack will kill them or make them dying, and HP is tied to army offensive strength in this game, so low health means low damage.

    The normal atk and tail atk while not as good as the breath one, is actually very good, unless you face army in full plate armor, but even then, it can still do quite decent damage.

    No in FE i never said that i want dragon asap, just that they’re overwhelmingly powerful that they are a good saving grace, like a last trump card. Besides you can’t get them early or asap, because as we both know we need the final tech, so it’s either pass mid game or in late game.

    There are no dragons guarding node other than in their own dragon lairs, or in specific wildland. Really, are we even playing the same game.

    About killing dragons without late game armies in FE LH, yes it can happen, but it can only happens if you exploit the bugs, or suicide as many weak armies as possible or use custom sovereign and factions, but it won’t happen very early in the game, certainly not in insane/insane difficulty where the dragon atk, defend and health are buffed almost 3 times the normal default difficulty.

    The math alone says this, in early game, there is no way you can field a full stack of army, that need some research, so the most reasonable army you can use is 6 units in a single stack, to get 9 units in a single stack require research. Boar spear only less than 10 damage, that’s already multiplied by the number of units, and with leather armor, when the dragon retaliate it will insanely butcher all the spearmen, breath attack even with nature cloak buff on all 6 spearmens will still one hit kill them. The dragon has around 800 health or 900 i forgot, assumed each spearmen can land a hit before being countered to death, that’s just 60 damage, certainly you need many many many spearmen to bring down the dragon, and this doesn’t consider the regeneration the dragon has.

    But back then in FE, there is a way to win if you’re very lucky, using life or death magic, very lucky as in your spells almost always land. But this can’t happen in FE LH, because the dragon magic resist is tremendously buffed.

    This convince me, either your memory is hazy, or you never really played the game for a long time, to know full well it’s inside and out or we played a different game. There are two FE, the first is FE, the second is FE LH. Both are different game but have many similarities. In FE LH everything is made better, and many things the player can field are made weaker, the neutral on the other hand are made stronger (including the dragons).

    But enough of this FE, let’s go back to AoW3.

    Its just that FE:LH and AOW3 is very different games. An really early dragon supporting you is very powerful in both games. Late game, their power is diminished just simply because there is alot of stuff to kill but still doesn’t change their effectiveness, the fact they’re getting nuked alot should be telling.

    And in Late game, dragons and giants still have one benefit, their immunity to elements which will allow you to blast off killer spells without worrying to finally bring the maps to their conclusion one way or other.

    Final battle on this map were Saridas vs my dreadnought.

    He cast Static Electricity against my Six fire giants, I chose to stay out of reach because of the static elecrity and proceed to cast hellfire.

    Then he cast chaos rift, and I cast hellfire again and finished him off for once and all.

    And plus, role of dragons and giants can easily be used for to smash an really hard to destroy city at last. Dragons can bypass walls and let breaths loose while giants have enough hp and toughness to stay in place to make walls crumble and charge in the breach.

    About dwellings, I can agree that they can be pretty easy to take over.<br>
    They were buffed recently so that Dragon’s Peak will have two dragons and four wyverns plus giant’s keep will have two giants and four ogres.<br>
    That alone is enough to delay an assault on them for several dozen turns to the point where you would rather do the quest to obtain a fire dragon etc xD

    Well dunno…. I’m always excited to get an giant or dragon.. even an archon titan as well. Because I can feel the boost in power even during late game unless I already have broken the AI’s armies.

    Indeed both game did their dragon differently, as i said above, i didn’t say one is better than the other. It can’t really be compared actually in term of which one is better, but i compare it not because of this, just to add external reference, a reference from other game is always good.

    Individually, yes, dragons are better than other T4 combat wise. What i mean that in late game it doesn’t really useful is because it can’t be amassed as easily as other T4 (even summon T4 is easier to mass).

    The only way to mass dragon and giant is to rush buy them.

    I agree that dragon and giant advantage aside from combat wise which made them better than other T4 is sometime subtle. What i mean is all Dragons are immune to Earthquake, Fire and Gold dragon is even immune to Hellfire, no other T4 that is immune to both of these spells without outside assistance (i.e. spell buff, etc) . I consider these two spells as overpowered for non strategic spell, perhaps the most overpowered spells, especially in the hand of sorcerer. The subtle fact that most people perhaps forget to realize is that dragons and giants are immune to these kind of spell is amazing feat indeed.

    But i still feel they need to be boosted in late game strength, not a stat boost, just that players can amass them easier, almost as easy as class T4 without rush buy. If it’s a stat boost, perhaps just 15 or 20 HP and 2 damage increase is fine.

    You occasionally do get an army of 6 roaming units. You don’t get assassins cause they would probably damage you more then is wanted on autocombat. The biggest battles you get on nodes are of 4 units which include 1 or 2 t3 unit(s) – early game thats quite hard TBH, and I wouldn’t want it to be harder. Also, you have different grades of treasure site from common to mythical and the stack strength there is directly derived from this parameter.

    Your question though compels me to think it might be a good idea to add a configurable option for how strong map independents will be in general. Hence on high setting a gold mine will have 5 t1 units in average, very high it would be 6, and very low it would be 1. with average being the current.

    If i’m not mistaken, this feature is included in the expansion.

    Well, I disagree. I think Dragon’s are great t4 units – up to par with Eldritch Horror for instance. I am really against the t4.5 or t5 idea in any thread I encounter it (there were a few, c the Warlock thread for instance) and I don’t think that unbalancing a high end unit respective to the existing t4 units will help any game element (dwellings for instance). As for the eggs idea – I’m quite sure this is not pragmatic as the dev team will simply not create all of these new units in the foreseeable future. Thus I’d say a simple solution using the existing mechanics and content will be best.

    I agree. But no, dragons are better than Eldritch horror, at first i thought they’re roughly equal with dragons being slightly better, but after tried sorcerers for several times, dragons are better, much better actually. Eldritch is floating, at first i thought floating is not that weaker than flying, then after several game with sorcerers, i realize, it’s in fact considerably inferior than flying. I can explain why, but this will be long, so just try it yourself, i’m sure after several games you will also notice the huge difference. Also, Eldritch is magical origin and summoned, that is also a weakness. At first i even thought Eldritch is better than horned god, but now i regard them as equal, perhaps no, actually i consider horned god better than Eldritch horror.

    Yeah, i admit, boosting them to T5 or T4.5 is too much. I said that not because of individual strength of dragon compared to other T4, i’ve said that they’re better than all other T4, my point is just to increase their late game usefulness, not necessarily with stat boost, actually i don’t want to change the stats, just increase their capability to be massed like other T4 (i.e. class T4).

    About the eggs, i think it can be implemented, there is an egg item already, but it gives mount, maybe just some modification to the code will make the egg give units instead.

    #115840

    Yes, you can set starting strength of independent sites now before you start the game. Put it on strong and every mine, node etc has a 6 stack. It’s quite entertaining.

    #115843

    Althea
    Member

    Hmm.., i believe that already solve the dwelling problem then.

    But i guess the dwelling quests is still the same?

    Well, at least one problem is solved.

    #115949

    Garresh
    Member

    I would just like to drop in to say a few things. We all know T3 rush at inns are really strong, and dwellings in midgame can be overpowered as sin. Of some note is the fact that Theocrats are the best class to exploit these things because of their abundant healing and tendency to power level their troops. Its not unheard of for theocrats to have multiple Elite Giants or Dragons in midgame just due to their incredible clearing speed.

    Now on dwellings, I do not have overly strong opinions. I find they are very randomizing, but the best thing is just to keep them more spread out. They often cluster together and mess with the economy or screw over certain classes who don’t like to capitalize on independents, such as Dread. Or they give Theocrat all independent armies at very high rank.

    However, nerfing T3 on inn to turn 30 seems pretty excessive. Turn 20 would be sufficient imho. Regardless of where you stand, theocrats unusual relationship with independents has become a class feature for them. It would be unfair to remove or cripple this synergy. So all I ask is lets not go overboard here. Some classes rely on independents more than others, or have higher synergies. Class balance may be adversely affected by sweeping changes on this.

    #115993

    Ericridge
    Member

    Althea you’re starting to confuse me now.

    Because I kill dragons with boar spears all the time.
    More specifically, Forest and Red Drake kinds.

    And Forest/Red Drakes is the ones that get bumrushed by Miltia spam when they’re sitting on only iron nodes that’s near me. Several armies die but I get Iron. Worth it.

    Additionally I accidently unearthed one of really old pictures when I was new to FE:LH. Me playing as gilden XD I think I lost one unit to his flame breath but one of my heroes survived with 1 hp as you can see in pic.

    And from what you can see, Forest Drake is dying to my spearmen with leather armor and boar spears. And they have 128 hp in the picture. 60 damage cleave will only take off half of my health, nothing more. So i’m wondering if you’re training troops out of fortresses or towns XD

    Finished endgame. This map takes place this year’s January according to the date of the screenshot i believe.
    Over 1k hp per unit, while sporting nature’s cloak / regenration. Hero of the army leading those knights is a defender with over 600-800 hp if i remember right. I was watching storm dragons and another elementals like shrills choosing to melee my knights instead of using their ranged elemental attacks because it would’ve done zero damage. xD

    Good news, the AI in FE:LH does know how to train storm dragons. Its just rare to see them actually field them, which is why i took this screenshot because it’s my first time seeing the AI bring one to field XD

    I do tend to not mess with storm dragons and ashwake and fell dragons until i got the pikes out at least even when I still wear leather armor. But I have killed them with boar spears. I just crank out disposable units out of fortresses and charge at them until they die and what I wanted opens up. Just three armies generally do the trick. If the dragon still lives even after three suicide armies then the high level army which was escorting the suicide armies will seal the deal I might lose a coupla units to flame breath but the dragon will die for good. No real big deal. Although I will be bit sad about losing lvl 10+ units.

    And wait, storm dragons have regenration? Pretty sure they don’t regen in battle unless you mean that default 2 hp regen on every ai units on higher difficulties.

    And obsidian golems, Yes I have killed one of them with my sovereign and basic spears army. That’s cuz one of them from the imperia wildlands started to rampage through my kingdom and I had no choice but to do battle with it before I even had the chance to unlock boar spears. What saved me despite being an gilden customized faction is the fact that i had rather large supply of mana so I could hack it slowly to death while spamming a heal spell every turn. XD I think that golem probably took 30-50 turns in a battle to kill. But I remember being OOM by the time it died and I lost no units.

    Just don’t underestimate the boar spears, they’re that midway point where you can start to really kill stuff although you will have to risk casualties compared to pikes. I use spears really alot in FE:LH.

    Heck, my first customized troop design is the Footmen xD +10 defense while defending, +5 hp, and wears plate when it unlocks. After they get some levels and towns’ guild grocers set up, they basically become invincible at that point due to hundreds of hp b/c AI Programming for FE:LH still not done yet.

    #116036

    Althea
    Member

    What i don’t even know is you consider drakes as dragons, that make sense then, yes you can defeat them after getting spear. What i mean as dragons in my post above doesn’t include drake, only fell, storm, ashwake, clambercoil dragons.

    Sure you can take down a dragon (not drakes, but drakes is much easier) with boar spears by cranking out many disposable units from fortress, but that doesn’t happen as early as the first 30 turns.

    About defender having so many hp is normal if you played very long game, i’ve seen many people did that. Not to my taste though, i tend to finish the game as fast as possible, my longest game is about 200-300 turns for largest map (thought it’s with max number of AI), around year 220-250 a.c. So i have no comment regarding champions at very long game.

    And yes nature cloak is very good, the problem is AI never use it, making dragons just steamroll their armies. And from that pics, your troop that has very high hp is gilden, i clearly said that either gilden or ythril can have very high hp, so it’s natural. But, AI often have army that has hp as high as that, they still easily steamrolled by dragons, dragons with king of waste buffed with +50% atk (life magic) buff can deal 500-700 damage to units that has 6 members, if it’s critical it will even reach 1k damage, i’ve steamrolled AI gilden army using that, that’s why blizzard is overpowered in insane/insane difficulty, because they work like a lesser dragon breath, damage is slightly lower than breath attack and has 2 turn cast (1 turn if you take the -1 cast perk) and is affected by spell resist, still that spell is one of the easiest way to beat insane/insane as pariden or resoln.

    I would just like to drop in to say a few things. We all know T3 rush at inns are really strong, and dwellings in midgame can be overpowered as sin. Of some note is the fact that Theocrats are the best class to exploit these things because of their abundant healing and tendency to power level their troops. Its not unheard of for theocrats to have multiple Elite Giants or Dragons in midgame just due to their incredible clearing speed.

    Now on dwellings, I do not have overly strong opinions. I find they are very randomizing, but the best thing is just to keep them more spread out. They often cluster together and mess with the economy or screw over certain classes who don’t like to capitalize on independents, such as Dread. Or they give Theocrat all independent armies at very high rank.

    However, nerfing T3 on inn to turn 30 seems pretty excessive. Turn 20 would be sufficient imho. Regardless of where you stand, theocrats unusual relationship with independents has become a class feature for them. It would be unfair to remove or cripple this synergy. So all I ask is lets not go overboard here. Some classes rely on independents more than others, or have higher synergies. Class balance may be adversely affected by sweeping changes on this.

    I still think turn 30 is decent, turn 20 is still quite too early. Perhaps turn 25 for T3 is reasonable.

    #116040

    Garresh
    Member

    Nerd Bleating

    As interesting as that post is, I think this may be the wrong forum. 😉

    #116043

    ExNihil
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ericridge wrote:</div>
    Nerd Bleating

    As interesting as that post is, I think this may be the wrong forum. ;)

    I happen to agree, please stop posting huge pictures of your fights here :).

    Anyhow, I didn’t ask for turn 30 or 20, I asked for turn 25.

    #116045

    Garresh
    Member

    The thing is, theocrats have a strategy of picking up few high power units and leveling them. If it is delayed to turn 30 that entire strategy is barred from them. I really think that might be overkill, and I think 20 would be enough. As is they buy it on like turn 8 at the latest. If they got t3s on turn 20 it would be strong but not broken, as people have t2s out by then at least.

    #116159

    ExNihil
    Member

    Sure, but turn 25 will be more balanced relative to different map sizes.

    #116437

    Sadist1
    Member

    The thing is, theocrats have a strategy of picking up few high power units and leveling them. If it is delayed to turn 30 that entire strategy is barred from them. I really think that might be overkill, and I think 20 would be enough. As is they buy it on like turn 8 at the latest. If they got t3s on turn 20 it would be strong but not broken, as people have t2s out by then at least.

    It doesn’t really matter whether it’s turn 20 or 25 then. If they don’t show up on your doorstep with a tier 3 unit before turn 15 – they will almost always lose the “rush” and have no built up cities to fall back on.
    It really is quite a poor, yet annoying strategy, even on medium maps and relies only on favorable inn positioning, not on skill.

    I, for one, will be glad to see it disappear entirely. I think anywhere between turn 20 and 30 is an acceptable range, since that is usually when players will complete their first tier 3 unit building (

    #116444

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    You guys really think that a double-priced (they are double-priced) T3 in an Inn makes all the difference when it may happen, that one player has a couple of Cartopgraphs, a ball of immediate casting mana and a refugee camp, and the other two Building Materials, one of which resolving into the Building Hall and the other into the Laboratory?

    Also, you need one hell of a lot of gold to BUY a (T4) dwelling, and if push comes to shove, you can always play with strong guards. Strong guards in an inn will be as discouraging – and damaging – as they will be on a dwelling.

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