Evaluate Class/Race combos

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Evaluate Class/Race combos

This topic contains 27 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  chrysophylax páuperem 4 years, 12 months ago.

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  • #206612

    So I was thinking to myself, which are the Class/Combo that which person thinks are the best and what are the most popular one.

    So I thought in a way to have an ideia of it, by giving a value from 1 to 10 to each class/race combo and by the end of the thread (or when we got enough votes) I could make an average of the values.

    So I will start:

    Theocrats:
    – Human: 7 – Dwarf: 10 – Orc: 10
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 5 – Draconian: 6
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 5 – Frostling: 6

    Dreadnought:
    – Human: 10 – Dwarf: 10 – Orc: 6
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 8 – Draconian: 6
    – Halfling: 6 – Tigran: 4 – Frostling: 7

    Sorcerer:
    – Human: 8 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 8 – Elf: 7 – Draconian: 10
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 5 – Frostling: 9

    Necromancer:
    – Human: 6 – Dwarf: 6 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 4 – Draconian: 7
    – Halfling: 10 – Tigran: 5 – Frostling: 10

    Rogue:
    – Human: 7 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 8 – Elf: 7 – Draconian: 9
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 9 – Frostling: 9

    Arch Druid:
    – Human: 6 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 10 – Draconian: 7
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 8 – Frostling: 7

    Warlord:
    – Human: 7 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 7
    – Goblin: 7 – Elf: 10 – Draconian: 7
    – Halfling: 5 – Tigran: 9 – Frostling: 7

    You guys can just copy/paste what I did and just change with yours evaluations. (if anyone do post here/is interested in this kind of thing hehe)

    #206621

    Epaminondas
    Member

    This thread is a bit like this one:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/master-thread-on-best-class-race-combo-candidates-post-el/

    Anyways, I will give numerics for 2 classes I know best (I assume from your scale 7 is average and 5 is terrible/worst?):

    Theocrat:

    Dwarf 10
    Orc 10
    High Elf 8
    Human 8
    Tigran 7
    Draconian 6
    Frostling 6
    Halfling 6
    Goblin 6

    Warlord:

    High Elf 10
    Tigran 10
    Dwarf 8
    Human 8
    Orc 8
    Draconian 7
    Frostling 7
    Goblin 6
    Halfling 6

    #206624

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Goddarn, my typewriter is really messed up. Anyways, I change my vote to 9 for Tigran.

    #206625

    Yeah I mean, 6/7 is average and 4/5 is bad, if you think that is a UNPLAYABLE combo it would be like 1/3, I don’t think there is one in the game, but maybe someone thinks that.

    #206651

    pikaq
    Member

    I think tigran and elf is good for necromancer,one is good at gold,the other is good at knowledge.Necromancer needs them very much.

    #206653

    Griffith
    Member

    I’ll only rank Sorc:
    – Human: 9 – Dwarf: 9 – Orc: 7
    – Goblin: 7 – Elf: 7(10) – Draconian: 9
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 7 – Frostling: 8

    Human, dwarf and draconian are ranked more highly cause they got healing abilities. Draconian apprentice fire bomb is nice, but since they dont have fairy fire anymore, many units are protected from their attacks. Elf is the most powerful after they get racial governance 3 upgrade (no long range penalty on storm sisters). Frostlings have nice support units, but no healing, so creeping might be hindered unless you get healer hero fast. Halfling supports got healing, but shorter range, so I dont rank them very highly (havent really used them much though). Orc, goblin and tigran i havent used much as a sorc, but they dont seem too bad. Tigran has pretty uber units in general, so maybe it’s one of the strongest, but thats not really class specific.

    #206694

    Sartarius
    Member

    I have no idea why do most rank high elven necros as the most bad necros… I played necro a lot (nearly 95% of the time since EL release) with all races and can said it is the best race-class combo esp for MP if you dare to play necro in MP games vs others.

    I made a wide post describing its point in another topic, yet heard nothing except luck for halfling ghouls, tigran healing supports and frostling 100% frost resistance (+40% for the most rare damage channel, which is nearly nothing I can say in comparrison to RG bonuses).

    High elven RG upgrades and race setup fits necro gameplay perfect. SS support with healing and stunn on gold, reanimators with TA (and eventually Life-stealing…) and the most important – heavy research, essential necro buildings for EVERY city and mana.

    So far you have to play from class units mostly as a necro (banshee + reanimators + random ghouls first, renimators + bones + death bringers, esp with life-stealing second. Support with reapoers in end-game) so no class except dread could effectively stop a good ballanced necro army. Even theo if without shrines cant do much in early-mid-midlate game if both are descent players.

    So nowdays high elves are 10/10 for necro if you are strong player and know all game aspects.

    #206713

    CSav10
    Member

    I think this really depends on a lot of factors including map size, and how much of the game you spend using the racial units, and how many you use throughout the game. So the numbers can definitely vary.

    #206721

    Zaskow
    Member

    Theocrats:
    – Human: 7 – Dwarf: 10 – Orc: 10
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 5 – Draconian: 6
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 5 – Frostling: 6

    Tends to agree.
    Maybe, 8-9 for Human, because Exalted, strong devout cavalry, ranged Evangelists and spirit Martyrs.
    Elves are piece of crap for Theo, no one interesting class unit.
    Frostling maybe 7, because High queens with healing are good.

    Dreadnought:
    – Human: 10 – Dwarf: 10 – Orc: 6
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 8 – Draconian: 6
    – Halfling: 6 – Tigran: 4 – Frostling: 7

    Dread Suppress nature could help Halflings to not suffer from morale penalties.

    Sorcerer:
    – Human: 8 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 8 – Elf: 7 – Draconian: 10
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 5 – Frostling: 9

    The least dependable from race class in game, so don’t know.

    Necromancer:
    – Human: 6 – Dwarf: 6 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 4 – Draconian: 7
    – Halfling: 10 – Tigran: 5 – Frostling: 10

    Tigrans: 5? Really? What about inherent 40% spirit protection for ghouls?
    Frostlings: 10? 7-8, maybe, because additional 40% fire weakness.

    Rogue:
    – Human: 7 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 8 – Elf: 7 – Draconian: 9
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 9 – Frostling: 9

    Dwarf – 8, because tough units. Orc – 6-7, because inherent orc healing after winning. Elves – 6, because no healing completely and standard units mostly, but excellent bards.

    Arch Druid:
    – Human: 6 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 5
    – Goblin: 6 – Elf: 10 – Draconian: 7
    – Halfling: 7 – Tigran: 8 – Frostling: 7

    Agreed.

    Warlord:
    – Human: 7 – Dwarf: 7 – Orc: 7
    – Goblin: 7 – Elf: 10 – Draconian: 7
    – Halfling: 5 – Tigran: 9 – Frostling: 7

    Human: 8 – because Knights, 2nd best mount archers.
    Dwarf: 9 – because strong class and racial units both.
    Orc: 8-9 – most melee race is perfect for Warlords.
    Goblin: 8 – because very spammable as Warlord likes.
    Elf: 8-9 – because mediocre berserkers, monster hunters, phalanx and Warbreeds.

    #206736

    The Mentat
    Member

    Elves are piece of crap for Theo, no one interesting class unit.

    Elves are probably not the best Theocrats but crap?

    It’s just another way to play Theocrat. You usually don’t build many Martyrs and Crusaders (but at least for creeping you also don’t need them because Longbow Archers are excellent for that) – instead you recruit many supports:

    Theocrats can produce Storm Sister with silver medal (so they easily get stun) and healing. By RG they do additional damage and have no range falloff and naturally they have Total Awareness. Total Awareness is also extremely useful for the Evangelist as a melee support. This two units alone make an effective midgame army.

    #206747

    Sartarius
    Member

    Actually elves are great for every class due to RG and unit lineup. Not the best in some combinations but still descent.

    #206752

    I know elfs are good anything because of how strong longbows are and its RG being strong, I don’t like then as necro/theo, I don’t think they are worthless, but it does not fit MY gamestile. I think it is fun to see that some people love it. That is why I wanted to create this thread, to see what others thinks about the combos.

    Tigran necro is really good, against theocrats, but besides that I did not like them so much. But I was torn apart between giving 5 or 6 to them.

    #206753

    Sartarius
    Member

    Just out of curiosoty, whats your necro playstyle? I really wonder how can you play with ghouls when you have very very ballanced and extremely strong class lineup? I mean ofc you will have ghouls but core is… Well, just want to hear as there are nearly zero necro players around these days, sadly.

    #206761

    Just out of curiosoty, whats your necro playstyle? I really wonder how can you play with ghouls when you have very very ballanced and extremely strong class lineup? I mean ofc you will have ghouls but core is… Well, just want to hear as there are nearly zero necro players around these days, sadly.

    First I wanted to say that 90% of my games are SP (and my little MP experience is with/against my sister/friend).

    So about my playstyle: usually in therms of research I rush Reanimators, I try to get at least a secondary necro hero (if luck is on my side, of course) on the beginning, so I have some heal to work with. If not possible to find another necro I will be happy with a dreadnought as my number two.

    Usually early game I use a LOT of cadaver for clearing, so I can spare my units from die. Of course I usually can only have 1 or 2 in a party, because they eat a lot of heal, everything more than that I send to scout, I usually even got one or two to gold/champion by early mid game. Whenever I get Reanimators I can start being more agressive.

    By early mid game I will have parties configurations like these: Leader – Secondary Hero (Dreadnought specialized in Spellcasting) – Reanimator – Cadaver – Racial Archer/Suport – Banshee/Lost Soul + One extra Party with Necro/Warlord Hero – Reanimator – Cadaver – Cadaver – 1 racial Unit – Banshee/Lost Soul. So I always use the Cadavers as a wall to my others units, I usually try to keep alive just one of those to get to gold, all the others are just cannon folder.

    Economy wise I think the most important thing to have is Undead plague cast in as many city as I can, or else my growth is going to be soooo slow that I will lose the game.

    Btw, I don’t think necro is my stronghest class, but I really enjoy playing as them! (much more than with Rogue/Sorcerer)

    About Specializtions I like these ones: Shadowborn Adept/Master, Earth Adept, Fire Adept/Master (when playing with Dwarf/Drac), Air Adept, Destruction Adept/Master, Partisan.

    #206765

    Sartarius
    Member

    But, what about mid – latemid game, the most interesting part where race-class + specialization come to play? In early game you are not using much of it.

    #206767

    chronobomb
    Member

    Just out of curiosoty, whats your necro playstyle? I really wonder how can you play with ghouls when you have very very ballanced and extremely strong class lineup? I mean ofc you will have ghouls but core is… Well, just want to hear as there are nearly zero necro players around these days, sadly.

    Necromancers and archdruids play a lot alike. Theocrats can use this strategy too. But the goal of creeping/clearing is to build your army, not to try producing them at your city.

    Clear crap units at the beginning.
    Save any sites with reanimators or other strong undead until you are lvl
    3. Then get control undead which makes them a permanent part of your army. This is usually a fAst way to get reanimators and death bringers within the 1st 10 turns. Using abilities to drop resists or dropping their hp seems to make control undead work more often.

    #206773

    But, what about mid – latemid game, the most interesting part where race-class + specialization come to play? In early game you are not using much of it.

    Late game I abuse the Deathbringers for ghoul curse/flanking and Bone Collector for Tankness. I will stop using Cadavers that much, I will still cast it on the fights just to send to their deaths. Race enters to me as the differenciations on the Reanimators/Death Bringers and RG mainly, I will use a couple of Racial T3 and Support as well by late mid game. So for me Elfs are a bit harsh especially because of the -20% Pop Growth. Their units are fine, most of the time.

    Specialization enter in play to either granting me a good damaging spell (fireball) or a strong buff/debuff (Seeker, War Anthem, Oil Skin, Stone Skin, Killer instinct) or granting me extra Healing (Shadowborn Adept)

    #206782

    Sartarius
    Member

    Just out of curiosoty, whats your necro playstyle? I really wonder how can you play with ghouls when you have very very ballanced and extremely strong class lineup? I mean ofc you will have ghouls but core is… Well, just want to hear as there are nearly zero necro players around these days, sadly.

    Necromancers and archdruids play a lot alike. Theocrats can use this strategy too. But the goal of creeping/clearing is to build your army, not to try producing them at your city.

    Clear crap units at the beginning.
    Save any sites with reanimators or other strong undead until you are lvl
    3. Then get control undead which makes them a permanent part of your army. This is usually a fAst way to get reanimators and death bringers within the 1st 10 turns. Using abilities to drop resists or dropping their hp seems to make control undead work more often.

    I agree with the point of control undead – yes, it is a major early game boost. Pitty you cant tell it to autocombat in most MP games( You are also right about resists but I can say that AD and necro have very different playstyles. I will try to clear out some things tomorrow as you dont have to build up your army from random ghouled/controlled units. It is just an addition to core setup as you wont ever succeed with random stuff against a proper player with descent tactic.

    #206786

    Yeah Control undead strategy also helps a lot early game.

    #206794

    Sartarius
    Member

    But, what about mid – latemid game, the most interesting part where race-class + specialization come to play? In early game you are not using much of it.

    Late game I abuse the Deathbringers for ghoul curse/flanking and Bone Collector for Tankness. I will stop using Cadavers that much, I will still cast it on the fights just to send to their deaths. Race enters to me as the differenciations on the Reanimators/Death Bringers and RG mainly, I will use a couple of Racial T3 and Support as well by late mid game. So for me Elfs are a bit harsh especially because of the -20% Pop Growth. Their units are fine, most of the time.

    Specialization enter in play to either granting me a good damaging spell (fireball) or a strong buff/debuff (Seeker, War Anthem, Oil Skin, Stone Skin) or granting me extra Healing (Shadowborn Adept)

    A short note. So you are using class units then. Elven support bonus is perfect for reanimators, bones cannot benefit from any race as they are monsters and death bringers – infantry, the only unit which can gain something from racials. In all cases TA is a lot better that some more here and there, despite dwarven RG 5. But it is RG 5 and it wont happen before reapers come to play and mostly never in MP or medium SP.

    And to get to class units you need research. So why do Halflings and Frostlings are better, esp halflings with 20% phys weakness when you cant boost your class units morale to max? Anyway I really want to write down some sort of expanded answer about Necros in separate topic. Ofc it is up to everyone how to play but I can see lots of ppl saying something about necros, esp mainstream things, when they dont know the class nearly at all. It is not about you, mate, it is in general. Ofc I dont know some necro thingies also as it is AOW3, you know, you cant know everything, but hundreds and hundreds of hours in SP and MP with descent base is something and I want to share my POV about Necros.

    #206800

    Halfling are better because of this: Memory of the Joy + Puppet Master + Eagle Riders (with RG)! It is 38% lucky chance making it really tanky and extra healing from T2 Sup!

    And Frosling are better because of Ice combo shennanigan + Ice queens. As I said is not that Elf units are bad, it is that the -20% pop growth hurts a lot.

    #206820

    Sartarius
    Member

    Created another thread as it is some kind of offtopic)
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/necromancers/

    #206881

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Honestly, one of the main weaknesses of Elven Necromancers is that they lose Blight Immunity, making them take even just 1 damage from blight attacks where others do not, and the like(which adds up). Also, basic Death Bringers with no way to enhance them through RG. Using Elves, I would almost definitely want to really take advantage of their MILITARY Racial Governance options to boost supports. Produced Silver rank Storm Sisters(no ranged penalty) and Reanimators, both with no line of sight penalty, are a scary thing indeed from personal experience.

    When 5/9 races(and 3.5/7 classes) can fairly reliably deal with Incorporeal units, and/or take advantage of Undead weaknesses, considering your default racial units is actually quite important.

    Anyway, this isn’t the ‘Necromancer Discussion Thread’, so I’ll leave it at that. I’ve already gone fairly in-depth on the matter before, and while there have been some changes here and there(like Goblin Death Bringers gaining Inflict Weakened), my opinions remain largely the same.

    #206883

    I’d say frostling necro rank depends on settings. If you are likely to recycle your starting stack before the major confrontation, then they are hard to beat (since you have an extra immunity, extra healing, and less fire weakness than the frostlings normally have).

    If, however, clashes are with the initial leveled stack, then frostlings have a bit of a disability that lowers them (ameliorated with grant frozen flames of course).

    Otherwise, elves are bad necromancers for several reasons. The first is low population growth. 10% isn’t much normally, but when combined with the necromancers own slow growth, it becomes a noticeable problem. The second is low HP melee units. The high elf ghouls have -7 effective HP unembalmed, which is murderous for early clearing even with vampiric hunger. The third is the blight immunity lack. When combined with the defense and HP penalty, that means that swarm darters and blight using units deal nearly full damage to elves. The forth is with reanimators. Unlike shaman, succubi, and evangelists, reanimatirs do not have any business doing close support. Thus, total awareness has no failed entangle or turn undead or seduce to remedy.

    On the other hand, gryphon riders (especially shadowborn ones), longbow storm sisters, and max upgrade level longbowmen are good. Gryphon riders can use flying and first strike/life stealing to be solid melee units (especially as they usually are embalmed), healing storm sisters with near stun or archers with inflict curse near projectile resistance are great.

    So elves are good late game supplements, rather than necro bases.

    I’d also rank halfling rogue and theocrat a bit higher. Theocrat gets you the most reliable exalted martayrs, more happiness, and double healing. Rogue gets you happy assasins and more reliable lesser stalkers.

    As for the Arch Druid, I’d say elves are right, but that dwarves are probably an 8 because armored fast archers are never bad (and the shaman are practically indestructible). I’d put tigrans and frostlings at 9. Leader stack frost protection helps both, frostlings to immunity, and tigrans to not weakness. Spirit protection also let’s tigran ads get spirit immunity personally and 80% resistance. Later on, the tigrans get immunity to degenerate for spirit in the leader stack.

    Obviously, tigran shaman are now good melee, but bad support unless mixed in while tigran hunters are superb early, but lose out later. Frostling shaman chill, and white witches swim, so there is that.

    Frost queens add a bit of melee strength outside of summons.

    Humans and orcs should be a bit higher. Human hunters sneak on water maps, and orc hunters are great early game.

    #206899

    Fenraellis
    Member

    The second is low HP melee units. The high elf ghouls have -7 effective HP unembalmed
    “…”
    HP penalty

    Just because they can get more HP from Embalmed doesn’t mean they have a ‘penalty’ compared to non-Ghouls without it…

    #206907

    I meant vs the default HP level, since elf sword and pike have 43 start HP, then -5 with ghoul.

    #206921

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Ghoul only does -1 Def and -20% Spirit Weakness on top of default Undead stuff. Perhaps you are conflating some of the different versions of Ghoul from during the Beta period?

    #206934

    Yeah, it is hard to remember what’s what. Anyway, lower HP and a defense malus is annoying. Like being half a goblin.

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