Expansion Dev Journal: Seals of Power

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Expansion Dev Journal: Seals of Power

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This topic contains 89 replies, has 43 voices, and was last updated by  JeanLucPicard 8 years ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 90 total)
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  • #103374

    Unknown250
    Member

    Hmmm, this could be interesting depending on how strong the defenders are. To be honest, I really wasn’t a fan of this sort of thing when it cropped up in GalCiv 2, but if the defenders (both initial and spawns) are quite powerful, then that could make it worthwhile.

    #103389

    ten9
    Member

    Very nice!

    And I love the art that comes with this news post btw.

    #103395

    b0rsuk
    Member

    The seal idea – someone has been playing Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension ?

    Will the seal guards spawned be possible to capture using Charm/Befriend Animal/Seduce/Convert ?

    Age of Wonders 3 is an odd game in a sense. In most games, concept art looks better than the in-game stuff. AoW3 is the opposite – concept art tends to look average or sometimes amateurish, but in-game stuff made out of it looks better.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #103404

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Will the seal guards spawned be possible to capture using Charm/Befriend Animal/Seduce/Convert ?

    Maybe some of them (not with Befriend Animal though).

    #103408

    Tibbles
    Member

    Age of Wonders 3 is an odd game in a sense. In most games, concept art looks better than the in-game stuff. AoW3 is the opposite – concept art tends to look average or sometimes amateurish, but in-game stuff made out of it looks better.

    Bit of a derail, but thats cause it’s real concept art, not promotion art that nearly all games show as “concept art”

    http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/2014/02/lets-get-real-concept-art/

    The way “concept art” is shown in media is actually pretty bad for aspiring artists 🙁

    #103410

    b0rsuk
    Member

    I think the most fair approach is to allow some of the seal spawns to be converted.

    – if they’re all convertable, it’s probably too beneficial for classes with conversion (Rogue, Theocrat)
    – if none are convertable, it’s probably unfair for these classes

    #103412

    MarciaVB
    Member

    Even further going to derail this topic, but Tibbles is right. Now, don’t get us wrong, the art you get to see is also more polished than the original concept art, but unlike the big AAA companies, we don’t have a separate team or anything polishing up art and then pretending it’s the “original” concept art. The first concept art is often not more than some pencil/pen doodles. Like this from Journey for example: http://www.edge-online.com/images/journey-concept-art-gallery/
    Also, I don’t find this piece looks amateurish at all. I didn’t see it before this dev journal, and I really like it. Kudos to the artist. (And no, I’m not just saying this because I happen to work here.)

    That article looks really interesting, I’m definitely going to read it when I get home. 🙂

    Okay, back on topic.

    @unknown250: Yes, the strength of the defenders alters the gameplay a lot, so we try to playtest a lot and find out what’s the most fun.

    @b0rsuk:
    Actually we were looking at suggestions from the community and found that a King-of-the-Hill kind of victory condition would fit best in our current gameplay, and we mostly looked at shooters, as they use this mechanic most often. The Seals have seen many forms over time, and we just distilled what we felt would be the most enjoyable for the players. At one time you had to have all the Seals at the same time, but this turned out to have some drawbacks and could be very frustrating, so we looked at shooters where you got points while you were holding the target location, and went with that.

    It was only later that someone in the office said there was something similar in Dominions, but apparently the default there is more of those capture points than players, where as we want less capture points (Seals) to encourage players to fight over them and create conflict. (To encourage turtling players to come out of their shell.)
    I have never played Dominions, so I might be falsely informed, but I just want to make clear we’re not just looking at similar games and ripping of their mechanics. There’s really a process of a lot of time and hard work that went into this.

    I hope this gives you all some insight in how this victory condition came to be, and proves that we are really reading and evaluating your suggestions, so keep them coming. 😉

    #103420

    b0rsuk
    Member

    Concept art – makes sense. Strangely enough I like drawings with a lot of blank space. I guess it appeals to my imagination more, like symbolic graphics in many 90’s games.

    My main point about Dominions 4 is that thrones are something strongly guarded you want to capture and that provides an empire-wide bonus. There’s also a twist – some thrones have negative powers, like slowly killing your population or opressive heat. It’s not always a no-brainer to claim them.

    To be honest the whole seal of power idea sounds very game-y to me, I immediately recognized FPS influence. The lore justification doesn’t convince me.

    If thrones are just structures, I assume you can build forts next to them and force a wall siege ?

    Speaking of battlefield enchatments, why don’t nodes etc still have an enchantment after being conquered ? It would make some battles more interesting. Nodes would have more strategic importance, like mini-forts.

    I liked how Master of Magic did that. Aside from suppressing non-aligned spells, each node had an aura which boosted summoned creatures aligned with it. For example, Sorcery nodes would boost Phantom Warriors. This aura extended to adjacent map squares, depending on the power of the node. Bigger nodes with meaner guards had more map squares covered by an aura. If you were clever, you could build cities in such squares for a free defensive enchantment of sorts.
    Conjunction global events (Chaos Conjunction, Nature Conjunction…) doubled output of corresponding nodes and halved all others. The cool part was that it was immediately obvious because the auras got visibly larger/smaller (more/less squares covered).
    A little known fact: auras were there even before nodes were conquered, it just wasn’t visible on strategic map. It may have been a bug.

    #103427

    Very interesting idea – I like that the game expands in other ways than ‘mere’ more races, classes etc (which are also welcome of course!).

    #103438

    Draxynnic
    Member

    To be honest the whole seal of power idea sounds very game-y to me, I immediately recognized FPS influence. The lore justification doesn’t convince me.

    I thought the same thing – although for the record, it’s used in some RTS games as well (Company of Heroes, for instance). I’m personally not generally a fan of it either because while it encourages players who get a commanding early lead to turtle, as if they have more capture points than their opponent(s) than forcing a stalemate will mean they’ll eventually win. Such players usually have enough of an advantage without then giving their opponent(s) a time limit during which they have to successfully attack or lose.

    The justification does make sense with established lore, though, and the ability of seals to rebel after being conquered might offset that, as the winning player will also need to devote resources to holding the seal rather than just concentrating everything on the front lines.

    A little known fact: auras were there even before nodes were conquered, it just wasn’t visible on strategic map. It may have been a bug.

    That was deliberate. Nodes were intended to boost creatures of their magic type and hinder spells of other magic types within their vicinity regardless of whether a wizard had claimed them – it’s a natural property of the node, not a property of the node being claimed by a wizard.

    Mind you, it probably would have been fairer to the player if an aura had been shown for unclaimed nodes so players could know where that effect lies without having to use trial and error.

    #103496

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Hmmm… Interesting.

    Was 2/3 weeks absent from the forums trying to save four princesses and kill a evil wizard and also save my best friend from a cursed hat and cats, and when I return I find this.

    I have some questions:

    1 – What happens if the Seal is covered by a domain? Do the city/dwelling suffer some negative effects?

    2 – The new elementals will be available to summon through secret spells like the Dire Penguin?

    3 – What happens to the charges that you accumulated if you lose control of all Seals? Did you start losing them periodically?

    Well, D&D has a large range of nonstandard elementals. Unfortunately, my relevant books remain in storage, but smoke, lightning, ooze, ice, and a variety of others have all cropped up in D&D, usually in overlaps between the elemental planes and the Positive and Negative Energy Planes – making a total of twelve I think on top of the original four.

    Makes sense, specially considering that the Shadow Stalker is practically a “shadow elemental”.

    But I wonder what kinds of elementals beyond the 4 usual ones we will see. Creation and Destruction elementals, maybe?

    I will admit that this talk about elementals reminds me of an particular Order of the Stick strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

    #103584

    smeagolheart
    Member

    So is this coming out today or tomorrow?

    #103593

    Ravenholme
    Member

    So is this coming out today or tomorrow?

    What gives you that idea?

    (I’m pretty sure the answer is no)

    #103606

    smeagolheart
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>smeagolheart wrote:</div>
    So is this coming out today or tomorrow?

    What gives you that idea?

    (I’m pretty sure the answer is no)

    What about now?

    #103607

    Ravenholme
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ravenholme wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>smeagolheart wrote:</div><br>
    So is this coming out today or tomorrow?

    What gives you that idea?

    (I’m pretty sure the answer is no)

    What about now?

    Still no.

    No, not now either.

    Nor now.

    #103608

    Taykor
    Member

    But today – for sure?

    BTW, what ‘it’ are we talking about?

    #103614

    Ravenholme
    Member

    But today – for sure?

    BTW, what ‘it’ are we talking about?

    I assume he was meaning a patch including the Seal of Power mechanic. I think he really, really wants it (and the attendant Elementals) in-game.

    #103665

    MarciaVB
    Member

    “As with other upcoming new features, we can’t give an exact date of when they will be implemented.”

    I can only say that the answer is not today or tomorrow. As you may have read in the topic, we are still in the progress of re-balancing and playtesting, so it will still take a while. 😉

    As for some of the other questions:
    -Currently Seals have no effects when in your domain. We’re toying with the idea, but every new variable/feature you add makes it harder to balance, so no concrete promises on this one.

    -We felt that losing the charges dragged out the game and made this mechanic too frustrating, so no. If the community finds it necessary, we might look into making it an option. This will probably not be included when we launch this feature though.

    -Summoning the new elemental guardians: ow come on, don’t make me spoil everything! 😉 Let’s say it still has to be decided depending on how powerful they eventually become.

    #103710

    Themed Seals: We looked into making Seals element-themed, but we felt that it would give some races unfair advantages. Imagine for example you play a 1 vs 1 match with one Seal, and it happens to be fire-themed. Have fun against your Dwarven opponent while you are playing High Elf.<br>
    Maybe in specific campaigns/scenarios it might be themed, as map makers can insert their own defender sets, and it might be relevant to the story. For RMG the elemental guardians will probably stay mixed.

    I think that is a challenge that can be overcome. And especially with fewer seals than players IMHO it would give people a reason to go after all seals, even if only a few are hotly contested.
    A fire-themed seal in the above match could do a variety of things:
    Firestorm global spell: good against most dwarven, elven and class units. Having only a few units of the dwarves be resistant actually allows the elf in control to tailor counters.
    Fire-resist buff: Better for the elves in the matchup.
    Fire damage buff (not adding a new channel): Better for the dwarves.
    Periodically summons allied fire armies: Good for both.
    Spreads tropical terrain: Disliked by both.
    Randomly explodes guardians: Harder to hold onto.
    Auto-casts Oil Skin for the owner each battle: Easier for dwarves to exploit, but when used against them costs them their immunity.
    Gives each hero fireball and fire strike: rather equal use.

    Etc… With a decent variety of effects it could go either way. I do however think that deactivating them for the competetive multiplayer players needs to be an option.

    #103721

    Taykor
    Member

    We felt that losing the charges dragged out the game and made this mechanic too frustrating, so no. If the community finds it necessary, we might look into making it an option. This will probably not be included when we launch this feature though.

    For example, going into the Void could make the leader lose some (one, for example) of the charges. I don’t insist at all, though. Just an idea.

    #103727

    smeagolheart
    Member

    “As with other upcoming new features, we can’t give an exact date of when they will be implemented.”

    I can only say that the answer is not today or tomorrow. As you may have read in the topic, we are still in the progress of re-balancing and playtesting, so it will still take a while. ;)

    As for some of the other questions:<br>
    -Currently Seals have no effects when in your domain. We’re toying with the idea, but every new variable/feature you add makes it harder to balance, so no concrete promises on this one.

    -We felt that losing the charges dragged out the game and made this mechanic too frustrating, so no. If the community finds it necessary, we might look into making it an option. This will probably not be included when we launch this feature though.

    -Summoning the new elemental guardians: ow come on, don’t make me spoil everything! ;) Let’s say it still has to be decided depending on how powerful they eventually become.

    Thanks for the update 😉

    #103751

    MartyD81
    Member

    “As with other upcoming new features, we can’t give an exact date of when they will be implemented.”

    Does this mean we will get the new victory condition in some of the next free patches/updates, or is it going to be an inherent part of the first expansion/dlc along with a new campaign (and a new -ing race for that matter), which would obviously take significantly more time? Thanks for clearing this up for me.

    #103824

    MarciaVB
    Member

    “Note that some new Dev Journal features presented will be part of expansions, while others will be included in patches / free updates.”

    AKA I can’t say whether this will be included in a free patch or be part of a paid expansion/DLC. If I did know, I wouldn’t have permission to tell it, but I don’t know for sure either. We’ll all have to see what our Tribal Chief decides 😉

    #103927

    MartyD81
    Member

    “Note that some new Dev Journal features presented will be part of expansions, while others will be included in patches / free updates.”

    AKA I can’t say whether this will be included in a free patch or be part of a paid expansion/DLC. If I did know, I wouldn’t have permission to tell it, but I don’t know for sure either. We’ll all have to see what our Tribal Chief decides ;)

    Hopefully, your Tribal Chief is a wise man and makes the right decision on this:-). While at it, please, fix that annoying “domain invasion” thing already, it is driving me insane… Thanks in advance!

    #106506

    Really enjoyed reading these comments about the Seals. I think it’ll make the game really fun… I do agree with one player who suggested that there be an option to be a “Protector of the Seals”… Maybe the good guy could use the power gathered in charges to reinforce the seals.

    I do think that if you spend too much time gathering power from Seals, you’ll be corrupted by it.

    Not that we writer types have any say on these things… 🙂 I sure hope my innocent friends living on the Blessed Continent don’t fall prey to the mesmerizing allure of godlike powers… that just never ends well for them… not even the short guys.

    –Ray

    #107664

    Summoner
    Member

    Suggestion for Seals: Have a way (or ways) to lower the accumulated points of players; perhaps when you lose a seal you start losing points (if you have no seals), and/or there could be spells to sap seal points away from players (perhaps these only work when players control no seals, or the spell removes fewer points if a player controls multiple seals). I think having ways to lower the seal points will help prevent the game from feeling like it is on a turn/time limit, and be more interesting. Sounds like a potentially fun mechanic though, thanks!

    #107671

    @ Summoner, do you mean something like the blue shell from Mario Kart, which targets the leader?

    That could be interesting, and would keep the end game nice and tense.

    #109135

    NEHZ
    Member

    Can we get water based seals? As in: water tile with water combat map. Could increase the frequency of naval combat by quite a bit.

    #109141

    MarciaVB
    Member

    Hi NEHZ,

    For now there’s only land-based Seals, as precisely making a new tactical combat map requires a lot of work. However, it was an idea that we also had, so maybe after the dust of the upcoming patch(es) and expansion settles down, we can have another look at it.

    I’d say keep it in mind for now, and when the Seals are out, make a topic to discuss this feature request, so we can get an idea of how many people would be interested in Water-Seals 😉

    #109203

    Can we get water based seals? As in: water tile with water combat map. Could increase the frequency of naval combat by quite a bit.

    Very nice idea actually.

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