Flanking and overwhelm

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Flanking and overwhelm

This topic contains 10 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 8 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #108555

    Telenil
    Member

    I’m not sure it is actually a balance problem, but I’m curious: why does Overwhelm stack with Flanking?
    Armor piercing makes sense, since the defending unit is armored on all sides. But flanking ignores both shield and first strike already, so what is the flanking unit supposed to overwhelm?

    I think the Overwhelm bonus is larger than the flanking bonus, but still, the two seem to stack. Is it just to make sure that two-handed infantry will murder pikemen? Is it because of a technical issue?

    #108577

    Bouh
    Member

    Oh no, not this conversation again…

    The thing is that *nothing* in game does not apply when flanking. All bonuses apply when flanking, always. There are bonuses who apply only when flanking, but there isn’t any single bonus in game not applying on flanking.

    The reason is simple : the paradigm in AoW3 is that flanking is meant to kill units and hit them as hard as possible. It would make no sense that something would not work when flanking, whatever the reason.

    Secondly, 2 handed weapons do not have a bonus because they allow to bypass the shield. There is no flail in game. The bonus, IMO, shows a mobility or tactical advantage against the shield or pike unit meaning that the shield or pike unit have trouble to defend against the two handed weapon. There is no reason then to not include it when flanking, even if the shield or pike bonus doesn’t apply in this situation.

    Finaly, wearing a shield (or pike) is as much of a state than ability. When flanked, the shieldman still hold his shield exactly like the pikeman still hold his pike. Overwhelm representing an advantage against a shield or pike unit hence apply.

    #108826

    Telenil
    Member

    The thing is that *nothing* in game does not apply when flanking. All bonuses apply when flanking, always. There are bonuses who apply only when flanking, but there isn’t any single bonus in game not applying on flanking.

    Of course there is: Shield. Which makes the question of why an anti-shield bonus always applies rather obvious.

    Secondly, 2 handed weapons do not have a bonus because they allow to bypass the shield. There is no flail in game. The bonus, IMO, shows a mobility or tactical advantage against the shield or pike unit meaning that the shield or pike unit have trouble to defend against the two handed weapon. There is no reason then to not include it when flanking, even if the shield or pike bonus doesn’t apply in this situation.

    That seems like a convoluted way of saying “it gives some infantries a bonus versus shields and pikes”. My question is not if that bonus is logical in-universe (it isn’t), nor what the point of Overwhelm is (it makes two-handed swordsmen counter pikes, duh).

    What puzzles me a little is that Overwhelm also applies against Shield (specifically 1H swordsmen), and that it even applies when Shield doesn’t. Why? Is it supposed to balance 2H vs 1H? Probably, but as far as I could see, the net result is that 2H completely murder 1H once they get a flank. Are 1H supposed to be countered by 2H? If so, what’s the point of a melee unit that gets defeated by other melee units?
    Pikemen, sure: they counter cavalry and have first strike, so it makes sense to have something that counters them. But 1H?

    Again, I’m not sure it is a problem, I just feel a bit confused.

    #108862

    Bouh
    Member

    Of course there is: Shield. Which makes the question of why an anti-shield bonus always applies rather obvious.

    I wrote “flanking”, not “flanked”.

    The shield is a very powerful ability, hence it comes with a downside (not working when flanked). Overwhelm is made to counter them as well as pikes.

    And you opposed one hand versus 2 hand units as if there was only shield and 2handed weapon infantry. There isn’t. shield protect against all physical attack. Almost all units have physical attacks. It’s a very powerful defensive ability. Hence why there is a counter to this ability.

    And why shouldn’t it apply when flanking ? Again, no bonus in game does not apply when flanking. To me, this show that flanking is meant to be deadly, and that no reason would justify a damage bonus to not apply in this case, because that would defeat the purpose of flanking. The game is much more oriented toward units dying than the previous episodes. All defensive abilities comes with some way to counter the added resiliance.

    #108989

    Telenil
    Member

    I wrote “flanking”, not “flanked”.

    Nitpicking. In a flanking situation, Shield doesn’t apply, its counter does. And shield is (as far as I remember) the only defensive ability that doesn’t work when flanked.

    The shield is a very powerful ability, hence it comes with a downside (not working when flanked). Overwhelm is made to counter them as well as pikes.

    And you opposed one hand versus 2 hand units as if there was only shield and 2handed weapon infantry. There isn’t. shield protect against all physical attack. Almost all units have physical attacks. It’s a very powerful defensive ability. Hence why there is a counter to this ability.

    How is shield a “very powerful defensive ability”? It’s good, sure, but Armored is far better. It gives the same defense bonus (+2) even when flanked, and it doesn’t get hard countered (a corresponding -2 instead of -3).

    I feel you are not taking my question seriously. Flanking is supposed to be lethal, but why should it be particularly more lethal if a unit with Overwhelm flanks a unit with Shield? Again, I get why Pikemen need such a weakness, they have large bonuses against calvary, flyers and even heroes. But what exactly are 1H (typical shielded units) supposed to be so good against?

    #108993

    Bouh
    Member

    Flanking is supposed to be lethal, but why should it be particularly more lethal if a unit with Overwhelm flanks a unit with Shield? Again, I get why Pikemen need such a weakness, they have large bonuses against calvary, flyers and even heroes. But what exactly are 1H (typical shielded units) supposed to be good against?

    They are good against any unit who use physical damage, and particularly against archers who have low physical damage. Or are you saying +2 defense is not that good of a bonus ? And of course armor is better, but they add up on each other.

    And flanking is not particularly more lethal to a shield unit. Not even with overwhelm on top. It’s lethal. A unit with shield will not take more damage when flanked than any other unit, it’s only that his shield bonus will not apply in this case. An overwhelm unit will take exactly as much damage from a flanking strike than a shield unit if they have the same defense. The overwhelm bonus though will only apply when the overwhelm unit attack AND the attacked unit have a shield and/or a pike. The shield bonus apply in much more situations than the overwhelm bonus. Hence, the shield have a counter, and not even a hard counter, because overwhelm don’t prevent the shield from being effective, it only add 3 damage, only one more than the shield bonus.

    The question of shield being punished twiced when flanked is irrelevant, it’s only concurring events with deadly outcome.

    To me, the odd idea is a damage bonus not applying to a unit when she is supposed to be vulnerable. Why shouldn’t overwhelm be effective against a shield unit at any moment ? Do you think shield units are not good enough to deserve that ?

    PS :

    Nitpicking. In a flanking situation, Shield doesn’t apply, its counter does. And shield is (as far as I remember) the only defensive ability that doesn’t work when flanked.

    First strike doesn’t work when flanked either. And backstab only work when flanking, even if the unit have shield or first strike. The knight and heroes with a shield will also be hit by pike bonus when flanked. Everything stack on a flanking strike. This allows a high level rogue hero to do stupid damage in this case, like 60, with assassin strike + backtab + overwhelm + human killer + multiple damage channel. There never is too much damage.

    #109003

    Telenil
    Member

    Why shouldn’t overwhelm be effective against a shield unit at any moment ? Do you think shield units are not good enough to deserve that ?

    I don’t “know”, which is why I made that thread to ask for opinions, but that’s pretty much my feeling at the moment, yes. Human knights and orc spearmen are good, but flanking is a soft counter to Shield already, and one that I find much more interesting than Overwhelm.

    Hence, the shield have a counter, and not even a hard counter, because overwhelm don’t prevent the shield from being effective, it only add 3 damage, only one more than the shield bonus.

    What? Overwhelm negates Shield and adds one damage from good measure if attacking from the front; it adds three damages if the flanking already negates the shield. How is that not a hard counter? The closest equivalent, Armor Piercing, negates the Armored attribute, full stop.

    The question of shield being punished twiced when flanked is irrelevant, it’s only concurring events with deadly outcome.

    What does that last sentence mean? And why is Shield being countered twice irrelevant when that’s exactly what I am talking about?

    #109014

    Bob5
    Member

    To me, the main purpose of shielded infantry is to defend the archers and stand in front of them, placed on guard mode. Guard mode prevents flanking so you can shield in any direction, and attacks of opportunity deter enemy melee units to go after your archers. 2H infantry are more offensively oriented, to kill pikes and shielded units that are not on guard mode (for instance ones that got stunned, netted, webbed, or w/e).

    #109016

    Bouh
    Member

    What does that last sentence mean? And why is Shield being countered twice irrelevant when that’s exactly what I am talking about?

    Perhaps irrelevant is not the good word. Shield is not countered twice because flanking does not counter shield. Flanking is flanking, nothing more. Flanking and overwhelm are two dinstinct things. Flanking does not counter shield more than it counter any unit. Overwhelm counter shield. Again, shield is an ability which doesn’t work when flanked, and that doesn’t mean flanking counter shield, or it would mean than any unit without shield or pike will counter an overwhelming unit.

    Shield units make for exceptional defending units because they are tough. Pikemen are very good defending units too, but much more fragile. When defending, a shield unit don’t even have the shield weakness anymore. And even when attacking, a shield unit will have the defense of a not shielded defensive unit (you need 13 defense to get more than 2 defense from defending).

    As for the hard counter semantic, to me pikemen are hard counter to cavalry because with first strike they negate charge, with pike square they get more defense and with pike they get 5 more damage. This is a hard counter because it leaves no chance to the countered unit. Overwhelm on the other hand will only give an edge in comparison.

    #109023

    @ Bouh, shield only works if the unit is not flanked, true.

    BUT, overwhelm applies against a shield unit, even when it is flanked.

    That is what the OP is saying.

    Basically, when a shield unit faces an overwhelm unit, it gets more damage from flanking than if the unit with overwhelm was a normal unit.

    Basically, shield only applies to the front, so the counter should also only apply to the front, whereas now, the counter applies even when there is nothing for it to counter.

    That’s what is causing the confusion :).

    #109036

    Bouh
    Member

    Basically, shield only applies to the front, so the counter should also only apply to the front, whereas now, the counter applies even when there is nothing for it to counter.

    I understand this very well. And I firmly support how it works currently. To me, shield not working when flanked and overwhelm working when flanking a shielded unit are both working as intended. I obviously have huge trouble to explain why.

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