Game may be more balanced than we think

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Game may be more balanced than we think

This topic contains 11 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 7 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #137552

    Bouh
    Member

    I just thought about something. The game may actualy be a lot better balanced than we think. Here some things we discussed in the past months, all concluding to “OP” mecanics :
    – Dreadnaught is OP because of musketeers ;
    – Theocrat is OP because of doom stack with T3 from inns ;
    – Sorcerer is OP because “sorcerer” ;
    – Archdruid is OP the same reasons as both the theocrat and the sorcerer ;
    – Rogue is borderline OP because of lesser shadow stalkers, but he is tricky so it’s fine ;
    – Warlord is garbage because of the lack of scout.

    “When everything is OP, the game is actually well balanced.”

    I’d like to point now something I realized about the warlord : take a warlord with fire adept, wild adept and either one of these mastery or air adept. Now, you have very good odds of starting with a summon spells (you have 2 or 3 summons in your spell book you can start with). Combine with field medic, it means you have a kind of archdruid now, but with the mid and late game warlord things, and the lack of empire upgrades in your specializations means you increase the odds of seeing training regimen. Your early game is a bit less relyable than an archdruid, but you get the mid+late game superpowers of a warlord. I think this strategy should be tested by someone proficient with archdruid or sorcerer, because it would give insight about the real power of summoning for any class.

    #137556

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Actually, play a Draconian Warlord with Explorer (there is even one premade, with a master in Earth in addition, so you do NOT start with a Summoning spell). By the time you hit 40 CPs you can actually double Death March a Scout or even a stack, if you have to. Add in all the advantages for irregulars (and Raise Militia alone will give you a couple of them), you can be very fast in the beginning.

    Summoning Dogs, Elementals or Birds will use up your CP and lessen your CP income due to upkeep, just as Raising Militias will wreak havoc with your gold.

    The main problem with Warlord is, that this Class has so many ways to use both Mana and Gold in massive quantities, you can easily overextend yourself and do something that’s doubtful.

    Imo, what I actually miss in the whole balance discussion somewhat is the importance of research ORDER or, better, the comparison of how easy it is for the classes to find a coherent RESEARCH ORDER that translates into a viable map strategy. For me, it would seem that WL is pretty sophisticated and demanding here, since things would seem to depend (what is right on one map and with one starting stuff may be wrong with another) and it would also seem that Rogue has been on the tougher side to master in this regard, while Sorcerer is more or less a vehicle running smoothly, no matter what.

    #137643

    Garresh
    Member

    Many of us are aware of these issues when approaching balance, which is why we mostly called for soft nerfs with regard to a lot of these things. Musketeers were OP because they were too efficient. A minor Nerf was enough there. Druids are slightly OP but the skill requirements balance it out, and the t4 evolve rush was addressed. Many of these statements of OPness have already been addressed in last balance patch and are no longer current, so to say that all classes are OP without looking at what was top dog at each phase is a bit dishonest imho. Each of those statements arose at a different time, with a different overall balance at each step. Also the only one saying rogues might be OP with regards to lesser shadow stalkers is me, and I’m more just pointing out they’re a *potential* balance issue. Since nobody agrees with me, then oh well.

    But the issues with timing are often addressed in the warlord discussion threads. Countless posts have been written about how some classes, such as warlord, are dependent on certain upgrades to function. This is a common point of discussion for like the last 4 months.

    Lastly, yes. Game is actually really well baconed for how many moving parts are involved. The state of balance is extremely good, and in FFA games class balance is almost irrelevant since its more about diplomacy and careful engagement than all out war, which means anyone can shine or fall. But that doesn’t invalidate our discussions! We address balance because we play entirely too much, and small things get noticed a lot. Also some things really are OP. We had a game last night where we limited summon lesser elemental to one total elemental at a time, and people still went wild magic. So clearly there are issues.

    Ultimately, we post about these issues to hopefully improve the game. Not because we’re not having fun.

    #137717

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Game is actually really well baconed

    Not sure if accidental or intentional…

    Amusing either way. 🙂

    #137723

    And this was worth a new thread because….?

    #137732

    Fenraellis
    Member

    To be fair, this was probably a better place for it anyway.

    #137736

    UltraDD
    Member

    Well I can’t see op next to warlord and the reason theocrat\Dread are op are bs and over-blown. In fact warlord shouldn’t 100% need to pick a specific sphere nor anyone else.

    Theocrat : Inns aren’t restricted to them. Inns are great with all other classes :\.
    Doomstack depends on map settings.

    Dreadnought : Musketeers need engineers in any remotely long fight to deal damage. Their damage punishes weaker foes with high armor than beefy targets with lots of hp. Infact one of the reasons they remain relevant is because Dread sinks loads of upgrades into them.

    Sorcerer : Well this is a passive-aggressive way to reference all arguements about sorcerer unbalance and whoever wrote them. While settler start they usually use buff him he is still able to do his same plan over and over and win. The only things that really annoy him are naga and fey. Because both are impressive against magic.

    I have nothing to say about the other classes because my performance with them is garbage. I’d rather leave that to people who play them a lot.

    The game isn’t class VS class. Its class+races+Spheres+mapsettings. Its way too many factors to sum up by comparing two classes.

    #137745

    Bouh
    Member

    And this was worth a new thread because….?

    Because yours wasn’t meant to take this route.

    #137754

    Garresh
    Member

    Look guys, I’m not saying the games balance is bad. Compared to most games, the balance here is just ridiculously good. And its getting better all the time. I just am honest in my opinions. I don’t think the game is badly balanced or I would’ve ragequit to exclusively single player or switched classes or something. I haven’t. And I don’t intend to. But the game isn’t perfect. Its *getting* there, but no game is perfect. Also, because the community is pretty active and it feels like its a bit more lively than Shadow Magic was back when I played, more attention can be given to balance. I mean do you guys remember shadow magic? That game was just excellent in every way, but the balance was atrocious. All the “little” races with their poor mobility were not good. Frostlings, halflings, goblins. All pretty bad. Undead were really weak too. The best races were stuff like elves, Archons, humans. Anyone with good mobility. But the game didn’t stop being fun just because of a few balance issue.

    If the balance issues are never addressed, this game will still be fun. In FFA any class can shine, and most players self-regulate away from OP towards interesting somewhat. But I don’t see any reason to cease discussion on the topic. Where there is multiplayer, there will be balance discussions. People will disagree. It doesn’t have to be embittered or hostile. Its a conflict of ideas, and not very important ones if I’m being honest. Its just a game after all. It may be game of the year, but its still just a game.

    And its not like I’m perfect. Some of my ideas are crap. Some of them are unproven hunches. Like I’m pretty sure in PBEM that corrupted killers will be overpowered as hell. I’m probably wrong. But stating the ideas does no harm. And where sorc is concerned, I think some of the ideas have merit. And even those of us who are preaching fire and brimstone and Nerf don’t want the class destroyed. There’s a way to tone them down and make them more interesting. I mean nobody commented on my idea to buff channeler in exchange for nerfing sorc research, so…

    As High Inquisitor, I may declare sorcs to be overpowered heathens, but so long as heretics like you all stand against me, I see no harm in the discussion. 😉

    #137771

    madmac
    Member

    There’s a way to tone them down and make them more interesting. I mean nobody commented on my idea to buff channeler in exchange for nerfing sorc research, so…

    It may or may not work, but it’s a fair suggestion. I see the main purpose of the research bonus is to make the Sorcerer innately better at magic then other classes-The Sorcerer has nothing else really to research except spells and CP so he ends up with more spells and CP on average, fair enough.

    Being able to sprint through the tech tree and unlock high-tier units early, on the other hand, was probably not the original intent.

    #137783

    Draxynnic
    Member

    It’s not a bad suggestion, on the face of it – gives them more of a spellcasting advantage while slowing their research. On one hand, it does risk making the sorcerer even stronger in the early game due to having more CPs available then. On the other hand, it’s an advantage that will become less important later in the game, as researching CP increases will make the channeling boost a lower proportion of the total. On the gripping hand, a reduction in research in exchange for casting points may provide more incentive to research other things rather than barreling down the CP increase line.

    Research, though, is a sticky subject because having more candles does not necessarily mean you’re winning the research game. To give a clear example, a class that has 50% more candles than the others while having 50% higher research costs is only coming out average. I’m pretty sure the sorc isn’t actually at that level, but it does express that just because Arcane Knowledge means a sorcerer can get more candles early on, does not mean that this is a massive advantage that needs to be nerfed. If the class design is such that they’re intended to need those extra candles to keep competitive so it’s only really a net boost when it comes to researching specialisations, then if they are researching too fast it may be more appropriate to increase some of their research costs rather than nerfing Arcane Knowledge, for instance.

    It’s also worth remembering that it doesn’t matter if you have a million candles per turn if the thing you want to research this turn only requires 150, since there’s no research spillover (unless you have a one-off research bonus like a breakthrough, clearing certain sites, or picking up scrolls).

    #137821

    Bouh
    Member

    Research, though, is a sticky subject because having more candles does not necessarily mean you’re winning the research game. To give a clear example, a class that has 50% more candles than the others while having 50% higher research costs is only coming out average. I’m pretty sure the sorc isn’t actually at that level, but it does express that just because Arcane Knowledge means a sorcerer can get more candles early on, does not mean that this is a massive advantage that needs to be nerfed. If the class design is such that they’re intended to need those extra candles to keep competitive so it’s only really a net boost when it comes to researching specialisations, then if they are researching too fast it may be more appropriate to increase some of their research costs rather than nerfing Arcane Knowledge, for instance.

    Research must also be considered on how you can use it : empire upgrades are effective instantly and permantly, which means that when all your units get martial art, all current and new units have it. On the other hand, researching a spell (be summon or enchantment or combat spell) means you will stop using something to cast it instead of something else. Basicaly, a new spell replace the previous ones when an empire upgrade or city unit add on the previous ones.

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