Game Suggestion to Stop Experience Farming

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Game Suggestion to Stop Experience Farming

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This topic contains 200 replies, has 34 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 201 total)
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  • #230688

    madmac
    Member

    i like being able to use abilities more than once.

    Dude, I also like winning. Fact is, though, that some abilities ARE already limited to once per combat. And if you think about it – limiting all abilities to 1 use per combat, makes having more than 1 ability quite interesting.
    This is especially true for heroes.

    Make a mod, and if people like it they will play it.

    #230690

    NINJEW
    Member

    Dude, I also like winning. Fact is, though, that some abilities ARE already limited to once per combat. And if you think about it – limiting all abilities to 1 use per combat, makes having more than 1 ability quite interesting.
    This is especially true for heroes.

    i think the distinction between an ability being once per battle and being on cooldown is an interesting balance mechanic that clearly makes some abilities better than others without increasing the actual turn 1 potency of the ability. the idea that i said that purely out of an interest in “winning” is, quite frankly, insulting. i could just as well say that i’m sorry you don’t enjoy losing, and if you think about it, having more avenues of differentiating abilities is actually quite interesting.

    #230698

    Lol @:

    “Make every ability once per battle”

    =

    “not changing the game”….

    Seriously, @ JJ, take a step back and read what you’re posting!

    #230702

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I agree – but only under certain circumstances. Take Reloading. Makes sense. Fast Reload maskes sense as well.

    Now take Healing. What reason is there for a cooldown? You can Heal or you don’t. Let’s say you can Heal 20 points with 3 turns cooldown: every 4 turns you can Heal 20 points.
    That means you Heal 20 points ONE turn and do something else the other 3 turns.

    Now imagine you can heal 8 HP each turn without any Cooldown or limitation…

    Admittedly. for webbing you might say it takes so many turns for the spider to refresh its net, which means you can justify some kind of “Cooldown” (or a Dragon may need some time to fan their flames anew, poison must be produced with a snake and so on).

    But there is COMBINING of abilities.

    The RELEVANT gaming ability is any form of Healing, because Healing is repairing the ability to fight the next battle.

    If you make all kinds of Healing a once-per-battle ability everything else is no problem.

    #230705

    NINJEW
    Member

    i wouldn’t mind healing alone being made once per battle, probably with a small buff (say 20 -> 25?), that’s a far more reasonable position to take.

    #230711

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    In earlier Incarnations Support unit’s HEAL could be used once per turn – EITHER in combat OR, if NOT used in combat, between turn.

    In AoW 3 Healers can do both, using Heal in Combat AND between turns, and in my opinion this is enough they way it is now, sonsidering that there are different Healings.

    I’ll probably make a mod sometimes that will simply make all Healing stuff once-per battle, the we’ll see.

    #230728

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The Mod is actually no problem. I made it. I left Repair Machine as it is. Necro is a tough one, but I’m positive it’s cool as a once-per-battle ability (considering the availability of Life Drain).
    If anyone is interested …

    #230755

    llfoso
    Member

    I like the idea of experience being distributed evenly. Then it’s something you just don’t have to think about. Maybe the one exception would be from the conqueror upgrade which could still give a bonus for killing.

    #230770

    +1 on Healing = Once per battle ability.

    It would definately help against xp farming and as a bonus also improve the overall game.

    While I’m maintaining some kind of roundrobin trying all classes / races and schools for variety and fun, I do find that I get better results if I use classes like DN AD and Theo. I’m pretty sure this is because of the better sustain you get from the Healing ability, even without using any “extreme” xp farming methods.

    Also compare “Mend Magical Being” which is a once per battle only and can only affect summons.

    #230774

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I also used the mod to go back on 6 HPs for victory rush. Which leads me to a modding question I will ask in the modding forum…

    #230779

    Great. If you have a mod for this, I will definately try it – a great fix I presume, because I think it will benefit the entire game, just by making these classes that don’t have healing a tad more competitive.
    For compatibility I would prefer a regular game update though 🙂

    #232341

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Something indeed needs to be done to prevent XP farming in PBEM. Archdruids (and probably Theocrat) just have such a big advantage, it breaks the balance of the game.
    I just saw an Archdruid farm using spiders to keep the fight going on in one of my game. He was 5 levels ahead of me and we were turn 7 (I won’t give too much information as it may influence the game), which is quite crazy…

    If we sum up the solutions proposed so far:
    1 – have a total number of experience related to the level of the units. The experience is given as a reward, and the player allocates the experience as he sees fit. Any loses suffered would have that experience subtracted from the pool by their tier level.
    2 – have a bonus multiplier for how quickly you are able to win the encounter
    3 – award a flat amount of XP to all units in the winning party based on what they as a group defeated.
    4 – calculate what the length of the fight should be, by taking how long the fight would have lasted in auto and adding 5 turns. If the fight drags on for more than this calculated threshold, you gain no additional XP for any actions from that turn onward.
    5 – have a total XP reward available for winning a fight dependent on the quality of the enemies, units would be awarded a share of the total available in proportion to how many action based XP they earned
    6 – remove experience gains from being attacked and capping skills like healing to only give experience the first time they are used in a battle
    7 – make healing a “once per battle” ability

    I think 7/ is a bad idea as it destroys all the balance of the game and not focused on the main issue (you could still exploit Awaken Spirit, webbing, etc.).

    Solutions 1, 3, 4 and 5 are variants of the same idea: limit the total XP available at a camp and share it.
    I think the best solution is clearly 5/: you keep the same system as today to calculate the “theoretical XP” earned by each unit, then at the end of the fight, that unit gain [pool of XP available]*[theoretical XP it earned]/[sum of theoretical XP earned during the fight by the winning side]
    The only issue is to calculate the [pool of XP available] (and also XP could not be displayed in real time during the fight as it is today, it would have to wait until the end of the battle to be displayed…). That could be done with a formula like: [sum of tier of the units]*[factor] and we need to assess that factor.
    The fact that XP could not be displayed in real time during the fight may be an issue for the dev… Anyone has an idea to avoid that?

    #232346

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    First you would have to give reasons for why you think Healing as a once-per-battle ability is supposed to “destroy the game balance”.

    Then you’d need the specifics about the way experience is gained , that is, how many points especially heroes are awarded.

    Generally spoken: if a hero with disabling abilities is supported by 5 units with disabling abilities, then there is nothing wrong with trying to disable the opposition. If you successfully do that, there is also nothing wrong when the hero is killing all disabled units. This results in concentrating the XP on the hero(es), but leveling up units very slowly.
    It would be wrong to draw this out in order to gain more experience (for example: the hero moves behind an obstacle which will reduce the damage his shots do, resulting in firing more shots).
    It would also be wrong to heal a disabled enemy unit in order to delay its death – in case this would be possible which I’ve never tried, so I don’t know.

    So what is necessary are experience gain details – how does it work EXACTLY?

    As with everything, EXPLOITS have to be stopped (and making Healing once-per-game ability stops a couple).

    #232431

    NINJEW
    Member

    i like solution 5 the best as well

    #232446

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Tombles made an interesting post in the other thread.

    Each unit has a counter that counts how often it’s giving out XP for interacting with other units. Whenever the one of the following happens:

    1) The unit uses a touch ability (gives XP to the unit)
    2) The unit is damaged by another unit (gives XP to the unit that damaged it)
    3) The unit hits another unit with a melee attack (gives XP to the unit that it struck)

    That counter goes down by 1. In the case of #2, if the damaging ability isn’t a repeating ability, then the counter goes down by 2 (because twice the amount of XP is being given out). Once the counter is at zero, then the unit will stop giving out XP for those things, though it will still give XP to the unit that kills it.

    The counter resets each turn on the world map, so if you retreat from combat then immediately attack again, the counters will still be where they were before.

    The counter’s starting value is defined in Title.RPK in the tier resources:

    Tier 1: 10
    Tier 2: 12
    Tier 3: 16
    Tier 4: 20

    I’d ask why the counter is different for different tiers – in any case you simply need to mod the values to change things.

    #232454

    I say no to making heal once per battle. Heal will already not be an early game ability (Theocrats will receive Iron Heart while AD will receive Nourishing Meal). Since it won’t affect heroes anyway now, making it once per battle won’t address XP farming issues at all. BTW the counter is increased for higher tiers because they have more HP, so they should have more opportunities to give out XP. If you reduce it then it will only make it harder to get XP using swarms of lower tier units.

    IMO the simplest solution based on Tombles’ post would be to reduce the counter and make it so touch abilities drain the counter by 5 instead of 1. That way units can’t spam disables to get higher levels.

    If not that, I like idea #5 as well, since that eliminates all possible extreme XP farming (though it would be a bit more work perhaps).

    #232457

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Heal once per battle stops a lot of possible exploits.

    The alternative would be to reduce XP from disabled units to 1 point, counter counting normally.

    #232458

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Thinking of just making it so damage/abilities used on paralyzed enemies won’t give any XP at all.

    #232466

    Hiliadan
    Member

    First you would have to give reasons for why you think Healing as a once-per-battle ability is supposed to “destroy the game balance”.

    Well, it’s quite simple: currently healing is key in some strategies, especially Theocrats, for who Order of Healing is a key spell, that needs to be researched as fast as possible. Healing is used several times per battle most of the time. If you remove that, it seriously nerfs Theocrats. If nothing else changes, their competitiveness is surely vastly reduced, especially in large or difficult battle (and I’m talking about auto-combat here).

    Obviously, no one is concerned about “a hero with disabling abilities is supported by 5 units with disabling abilities” and the hero killing the targets after they have been disabled. What we are concerned about is exploit where the hero kills the target as slowly as possible to get as much XP as possible.

    Your new information is very interesting!
    So what would be a better value for each tier? And in what tier are heroes? Tier 4? Or another tier 5?
    I think most T1 unit can be killed in 1 to 4 hits. So a value of 6 could be enough for a T1 maybe?
    Maybe a reduction of 40% could be something good?
    Tier 1: 6
    Tier 2: 8
    Tier 3: 10
    Tier 4: 16

    But that would still leave plenty of scope for unnecessarily buffing your troops with your heroes or support. You could still at least do 8 healing with your heroes for instance or 4 healing and 4 Awaken Spirit…

    #232468

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Thinking of just making it so damage/abilities used on paralyzed enemies won’t give any XP at all.

    The exploit is mainly to paralyze enemy units so that you can buff your other ally units multiple times, or to do as little damage as possible multiple times. So I’m not sure removing XP on paralyzed enemies really help.

    #232483

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Which buffs do they use?

    #232484

    madmac
    Member

    Which buffs do they use?

    I don’t think that’s the point, just that the exploit is to fiddle around doing random things to gain XP while units are paralyzed.

    No real way to fix that in a way that doesn’t cause worse problems IMO, short of throwing out the whole system and moving away from a participation based XP model.

    #232493

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, at least they can’t use Healing more than once. 🙂

    Order of Healing isn’t affected, it’s just the Healing ability that is affected. On the plus side this makes Brew Brothers, Humans and Dwarves keep their advantage since they have TWO healing abilities in that case. It also makes Frostling T3 less glaringly powerful and so on.

    I suppose Orcs will become rather popular these days. 🙂

    #232494

    I don’t think that’s the point, just that the exploit is to fiddle around doing random things to gain XP while units are paralyzed.

    yeah, you could conceivably have a bunch of shaman, one animal, and one priest with dispel, and then cycle through a single low tier enemy and get everyone a level. But that would take a really long time, so I think that the ability to sit through that stuff is so low in pbem that you could just have house rules about it/mark players who do it as jerks to avoid.

    #232495

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    House rules suck, because you can’t control, whether they are followed.

    Anyway – what can easily be a source of XP gain, is cycling through different hero abilities. Say you somehow paralyzed opponents; you can now use all kind of Inflict abilities, for example.

    So simply blocking XP gain from diabled units will solve everything except using abilities on friendlies, which isn’t that much of a problem – except of course with Healing. Disabling the last living opponent over and over again, until everyone is healed is as cheesy as effective, so Healing is the ability that must be regulated.

    #232496

    NINJEW
    Member

    Order of Healing isn’t affected, it’s just the Healing ability that is affected. On the plus side this makes Brew Brothers, Humans and Dwarves keep their advantage since they have TWO healing abilities in that case. It also makes Frostling T3 less glaringly powerful and so on.

    Healing is used several times per battle most of the time. If you remove that, it seriously nerfs Theocrats. If nothing else changes, their competitiveness is surely vastly reduced, especially in large or difficult battle (and I’m talking about auto-combat here).

    jj, please respond to this quote meaningfully instead of arguing semantics and bringing up points that pretend that healing being once per battle is already proven to be balanced.

    #232504

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Which buffs do they use?

    In the example I saw it was Awaken Spirit.
    As chrysophylax páuperem said, you could imagine doing that, then dispel, then do it again, etc. Of course we can implement house rules but I don’t think it’s a good idea and as said by others, it may not be totally enforceable.

    For Arch Druid, you can basically do Awaken Spirit + as much Healing as you can + let your spiders do web in turns, so that your hero and your spiders gain as much XP as possible.
    When you get Entangling Touch, you have a new tool to play with.

    #232511

    NINJEW
    Member

    house rules work a lot better for live mp.

    #232517

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    What IS proven, is that unlimited Healing is unbalanced.

    If the playability of a class depends on spamming an ability it would be badly designed. It isn’t badly designed – you will just have to put a little more thought into things instead of simply healing the shit out of a battle.

    And should Theo become underpowered – and keep in mind that others will have less Healings well, which will nerf basically everyone – you can change Order of Healing, by increasing the Healing ability by 5 or more points – no problem.

    #232524

    NINJEW
    Member

    and keep in mind that others will have less Healings well, which will nerf basically everyone

    who?
    players with access to feathered serpents?
    don’t forget that AD and theo heroes are losing the heal ability

    What IS proven, is that unlimited Healing is unbalanced.

    in the early game, in PBEM, yes. outside of that combination of circumstances? nah, not proven at all.

    If the playability of a class depends on spamming an ability it would be badly designed. It isn’t badly designed – you will just have to put a little more thought into things instead of simply healing the shit out of a battle.

    healing is a central feature of the class, one of several core design elements. much like changes to stuns would have far reaching consequences on sorcerer, changes to healing have far reaching consequences on theocrat. sustainability is the core design theme of the theocrat, and healing is ultimately what forces an enemy player to actually properly engage a theocrat’s crusader formations – they can’t just chip them out from long range.

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