Game Suggestion to Stop Experience Farming

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Game Suggestion to Stop Experience Farming

Tagged: 

This topic contains 200 replies, has 34 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 201 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #232526

    NINJEW
    Member

    jj you seem to have a habit of operating under premises that you, and you alone, are only assuming to be true. please prove A before trying to prove that if A then B

    #232544

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Look, there are enough auto battles AND I see the AI work, and if the AI knows how to use one ability, it’s Healing.

    Healing is BY FAR the most useful ability to have in autocombat, because the AI makes unrestricted and full use of it.

    Which means, if I was you I would keep from trying to be offensive on a personal level, and simply admit that this is the case. You should know it.

    Everyone else has been busy using the Healer Heroes to improve their options. Healing was moved to make it less of a “selling point” – as well as Control, Convert, and Befriend stuff, while Charm was moved forward making Rogue better and Theo and AD worse AT START.
    This would seem fair: if a certain hero type is VERY MUCH in demand while others are shunned – can there be any doubt there is something wrong with the balance?

    And concerning your “Crusader Formations” – Cardinal Culling would make that a pretty obsolete thing anyway with 40% physical weakness and -5 damage. Relying on large formations of one unit is pretty dangerous.

    #232545

    Shakey
    Member

    -1 to Healing once per battle. Any large battle 3vs3 stacks would suffer from this. Especially in sieges trying to get over walls.

    The best solution really is party shared total xp, even if it’s not my favorite. It’s fair, and it doesn’t change any other part of the game.

    There are some really convoluted ideas in this thread, it would be great to focus on this problem and not try to piggy-back/pigeon-hole other ideas to create a unfavorable fix.

    #232550

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    ANY? Who is supposed to have a long battle and the ability to heal and heal and heal? ALL?

    #232558

    gladis
    Member

    double post

    #232559

    gladis
    Member

    Healing once per battle should be worth a try, but I fear 25 HP healing for theocrate supports would be a problem in relation of the automatic healing per round.
    Let´s say a stack of Theocrate Heroe, Human Priest, Evangelist and 3 fighting units.
    Adding all healing point would be: 2 x 25 (healing of support) + 15 iron heart + 20 heroe healing + a maximumum of 36 through healing aura.
    This would be a total of 121 HP per round (20 per unit plus a minimum of 6) and would be OP I believe. Maybe it´s a problem yet?

    I just have a probably more or less goof idea. What about adding healing showers to order of healing?
    Then it could be a additional once per battle skill of all supports and should be treated as thunderstorm but only one round and therefore could only be made once at a time.
    Of course it´s healing by accident and could affect opposing units who are next to units of the theocrate but at least it is gods will who shall survive 😛

    What do you think about this idea? A very specific one indeed.

    Regaining a lot of health at the end of a combat could remain a problem, though. As well as XP farming if you placing your units beside the opponent.
    But here the idea of getting a maximum XPs for killing a unit would solve this problem.
    PS: This skill could be a theocrate heroe upgrade as well, but I know that the “spell” originally comes from master of water (shouldn´t be a big problem I think)

    Talking about awaken spirit: I think it should be once per battle as touch of faith is, since these two skills are comparable for me.

    #232572

    Look, there are enough auto battles AND I see the AI work, and if the AI knows how to use one ability, it’s Healing.

    Healing is BY FAR the most useful ability to have in autocombat, because the AI makes unrestricted and full use of it.

    Which means, if I was you I would keep from trying to be offensive on a personal level, and simply admit that this is the case. You should know it.

    It is useful but that doesn’t mean it needs to be needed. In any case you should go make a new thread about heal if you are this adamant about it. This one is about XP farming, which is done with disables and all buffs. Unless you are suggesting that every skill in the game be once a battle, I don’t see how heal specifically causes this issue.

    Fully healing your army in manual combat is another issue entirely, and can only be done with Theocrat supports and Feathered Serpants in the new patch. I don’t think anyone here has issues with Theocrat so you are unlikely to find much support there either.

    Everyone else has been busy using the Healer Heroes to improve their options. Healing was moved to make it less of a “selling point” – as well as Control, Convert, and Befriend stuff, while Charm was moved forward making Rogue better and Theo and AD worse AT START.
    This would seem fair: if a certain hero type is VERY MUCH in demand while others are shunned – can there be any doubt there is something wrong with the balance?

    And concerning your “Crusader Formations” – Cardinal Culling would make that a pretty obsolete thing anyway with 40% physical weakness and -5 damage. Relying on large formations of one unit is pretty dangerous.

    You realize Cardinal Culling is a Grey Guard Master skill that is higher up in the tech tree? Crussaders and healers will come much earlier than that. Besides, requiring two specialization points and a high tech spell is not reasonable to suggeat as a counter.

    #232580

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    You are mistaking a couple of things here.

    Healing is not nerfed because of experience farming. Instead Healing is nerfed, because experience farming is ONE of the many exploits that are possible only because of Healing spam.

    XP farming will be stopped by FULLY by not giving XP anymore for doing something with a disabled unit. That leaves the abilities that you can cast on friendlies (of which Healing is part of – and incidentally the only one that has more use than just XP farming).

    So just give the patch a chance wand wait until Tombles has stopped the hurt-the-disabled rage. And if that’s still not sufficient you can still change something with the way how much a certain action counts against the counter.

    Healing, though, is a problem that touches a lot issues.

    #232623

    NINJEW
    Member

    Which means, if I was you I would keep from trying to be offensive on a personal level, and simply admit that this is the case. You should know it.

    you see this is pretty much what i mean when i say

    jj you seem to have a habit of operating under premises that you, and you alone, are only assuming to be true. please prove A before trying to prove that if A then B

    Look, there are enough auto battles AND I see the AI work, and if the AI knows how to use one ability, it’s Healing.

    Healing is BY FAR the most useful ability to have in autocombat, because the AI makes unrestricted and full use of it.

    nah. really the big thing about getting a heal ability is that it works as both a passive heal + an active heal if you ever find yourself in manual combat. it healing your units during autobattle is mostly a side benefit. if i was looking at only one fight, i’d rather have something like warlord’s stackwide +1 defense for auto combat over healing. healing is mostly just important for keeping up clearing one site a turn without having to take a break, and still usually requires either a healing support or a passive heal skill as well to keep up with that.

    This would seem fair: if a certain hero type is VERY MUCH in demand while others are shunned – can there be any doubt there is something wrong with the balance?

    yeah, getting access to healing heroes early was more desirable than other heroes, that’s why that change was made what it mostly fixes, good job cracking the case sherlock. this point doesn’t lead to anything else.

    And concerning your “Crusader Formations” – Cardinal Culling would make that a pretty obsolete thing anyway with 40% physical weakness and -5 damage. Relying on large formations of one unit is pretty dangerous.

    you’re an idiot, because not everyone is going to be rocking grey guard master, and tough sustainable theocrat formations do not rely solely on a million crusaders. if your opponent is rocking grey guard master, you can find some kind of cure disease access to mitigate that anyway. plus, you’d still have trouble chip damaging out crusaders even with cardinal culling, so you’d still have to close into melee with the theocrat’s formation, so my point still stands anyway. 40% physical weakness doesn’t affect the actual defense of the unit, so a recruit crusader still has effective defense 19 in guard mode, which is still an effective -9 damage vs arrows. recruit longbows do 9 damage. that’s still trying to chip the crusaders out with 1 damage shots (maybe upgraded to 2 damage thanks to cardinal culling), which is still really easy to sustain against with the help of, you guessed it, heal. so the only way to deal meaningful damage to the crusaders continues to be a melee charge, and that’s still only the case because heal is a cooldown ability.

    #232625

    NINJEW
    Member

    seriously though “i’m just plain right and you just need to come around to admitting it” is a pretty silly thing to say, and i don’t know how you think your word carries any amount of weight or respect when you say things like that.

    #232629

    You are mistaking a couple of things here.

    Healing is not nerfed because of experience farming. Instead Healing is nerfed, because experience farming is ONE of the many exploits that are possible only because of Healing spam.

    XP farming will be stopped by FULLY by not giving XP anymore for doing something with a disabled unit. That leaves the abilities that you can cast on friendlies (of which Healing is part of – and incidentally the only one that has more use than just XP farming).

    You realize that XP farming refers mostly to farming XP with heroes and units with evolve? When you heal a unit only the healer receives XP. The only units with heal in the new patch will be Theocrat supports (after upgrade) and Feather Serpants.

    I still don’t see how making heal once a battle is relevant to this discussion, unless AD and Theocrat are getting that ability back on their heroes. No heroes with heal ability = heroes cannot farm XP with heal (nor can they fully heal their stack since all the new patch heal abilities are once a battle).

    #232652

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Which means, if I was you I would keep from trying to be offensive on a personal level, and simply admit that this is the case. You should know it.

    you see this is pretty much what i mean when i say

    you’re an idiot

    And that settles it.

    #232663

    Hiliadan
    Member

    You realize that XP farming refers mostly to farming XP with heroes and units with evolve? When you heal a unit only the healer receives XP. The only units with heal in the new patch will be Theocrat supports (after upgrade) and Feather Serpants.

    I still don’t see how making heal once a battle is relevant to this discussion, unless AD and Theocrat are getting that ability back on their heroes. No heroes with heal ability = heroes cannot farm XP with heal (nor can they fully heal their stack since all the new patch heal abilities are once a battle).

    Exactly.
    JollyJoker, if you’re so angry against healing, just create a post about that in the balance forum, as other suggested. Here it’s about experience farming, and healing is clearly not the only issue.
    Also, I just read the changelog for v1.701 and it addresses the problem you consider major, as heroes do not have healing any more.

    With AD, without healing, you can still web an opponent with spiders, then do your best to suck all the possible XP out of it (go as far as possible to the target and attack it with range damage – not longbow if possible -, wait until it’s unwebbed then web it again, etc.) + do as much awaken spirit or other buffs you may have as possible + do all your debuffs such as curse.
    So I think the problem needs either to be solved through the maximum XP a unit or a site can award OR you need to fix every exploit and not just “healing”, which is only part of the issue. For instance make Awaken Spirit a once per battle (and same for all the buffs) and remove XP from actions on paralyzed units.

    #232678

    Would it help if Webbing was once per battle? Or would that make spiders UP?

    #232679

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    *Sigh*
    EVERYTHING IS ALREADY ADRESSED OR WILL BE ADDRESSED!
    Healing IS already addressed (it has at least as many consequences for Necro as for Theo) by the patch NOW.
    Tombles said, he will add a change so that DISABLED (that is, webbed, paralyzed, entangled, netted and all other states that disallow a unit to act and retaliate) DO NOT GIVE ANY XP ANYMORE.

    So with that fix that he will add, you can beat and shoot the crap out of a webbed Titan for as many rounds as you like – you won’t get ANY XP out of it. Same with trying to Stun an already disabled guy. Is that understood now?

    As much as I’m concerned, all problems in this regard are – or will be with the next patch iteration – solved!

    #232694

    Hiliadan
    Member

    It’s crazy how much you want to be right and prove your superiority.

    Dude, no, it’s not solved.
    If you read carefully, you would have noticed that there is an issue with Awaken Spirit and that you can still exploit it. You web your opponent, then you hit him from time to time (NOT TO GAIN XP as you don’t seem to understand) to avoid losing the battle because of 5 turns without damage, and you buff all your pretty spiders with your AD. By the way, all the spiders get their XP by webbing the opponents several times.
    Also, you can do even better: you dispel the Awaken Spirit with a allied unit, then you rebuff later.

    AND, healing is removed from Theo and AD heroes, but not from support so you can still play the little “shoot the scoundrel” game at camps and heal your hero (or any unit taking the hits for that matter) from time to time.

    Also, if you refer to that regarding paralyzed units:

    Thinking of just making it so damage/abilities used on paralyzed enemies won’t give any XP at all.

    As far as I’m concerned, it’s a “thinking”, not a “will do”. But that’s just to be as picky as you are. 😛

    Anyway, it would have been better to have a fix that directly address the issues, rather than indirect fixes, as I’m sure clever players will find new exploits to circumvent the current fixes.

    #232698

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I quote myself

    That leaves the abilities that you can cast on friendlies (of which Healing is part of – and incidentally the only one that has more use than just XP farming).

    I was under the impression that using the same ability on friendlies will gain you XP just once for it per battle. Otherwise you’d have a problem with Dispel as well

    If that is the wrong impression – well, yes, it would have to be fixed to stop XP farming. Of course we already have a thread of pople complaining about game changes just because one or two PBEM players play that way.

    I have no problem with changes and even more changes because I simply think that leveling heroes each turn is too fast to be fun.

    #232701

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Hi guys,

    Just to let you know I’m looking into this and it’s taking a bit of time, because I’ve found some weird stuff in the code. Things are not working in the way I expected, and I’m trying to figure out what to do.

    Hopefully I’ll have something for you soon!

    #232730

    *Sigh*
    EVERYTHING IS ALREADY ADRESSED OR WILL BE ADDRESSED!
    Healing IS already addressed (it has at least as many consequences for Necro as for Theo) by the patch NOW.

    Then why did you keep talking about making heal once per battle even after patch notes came out? Everyone except you was already talking under the assumption that heroes no longer have healing ability.

    Tombles said, he will add a change so that DISABLED (that is, webbed, paralyzed, entangled, netted and all other states that disallow a unit to act and retaliate) DO NOT GIVE ANY XP ANYMORE.

    So with that fix that he will add, you can beat and shoot the crap out of a webbed Titan for as many rounds as you like – you won’t get ANY XP out of it. Same with trying to Stun an already disabled guy. Is that understood now?

    As much as I’m concerned, all problems in this regard are – or will be with the next patch iteration – solved!

    He said he would change if no one objects. Many people object to that because it makes it harder to allocate XP to lower tier units (giving less options for players).

    You do not seem to understand how XP farming works because people use abilities to gain more levels. That is why I suggested that abilities drain the counter faster, in order to prevent that.

    #232748

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Fixes are now in the Open Beta:

    • Unit abilities that do no damage now only grant XP to their user once per battle
    • Reduced number of times tier 2,3 and 4 units can be attacked and still grant XP (XP for kills is unaffected by this)

    The counters work as described in my other post earlier in this thread, they just have lower values:

    Tier 1: 10
    Tier 2: 10
    Tier 3: 12
    Tier 4: 14

    #232749

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    In the end, it’s an imperfect fix, but the only true fix would be a system as was suggested here, where we just say “You killed 5 units, worth 20xp, so your units get 20xp shared between them”. This would be a huge amount of work to implement though, so this is the best I can manage.

    #232772

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Good! That should be ok! I’ll confirm you during the final of the PBEM tournament if the same player can get to lvl 9 at turn 7, as I’m pretty sure he will be in the final. 😀

    #232787

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The fix sounds ok-ish. Thinking a bit more about it, I had another idea:

    All “XP farming” needs “battle control” via disabling – so you could end farming by simply ending the battle as soon as one side was “fully controled”, that is, the moment one side has only “disabled” = inactive units that cannot retaliate or take any action.

    If the battle would end at that point, simply rewarding the killing XP value to the disabling unit things would be ok as well. I have difficulties imagining an AD army attack 3 Lost Souls and then running away from them using Awaken Spirit to gain XP – although it probably WILL come to that.

    I’d like to take the chance to apologize, if I came over overzealous. I don’t engange in XP farming because it has nothing to do with having fun and playing a game but only with exploiting the system. On the other hand it kills competetive fun and makes balance decisions difficult…
    So go figure.

    #232791

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    If the battle would end at that point, simply rewarding the killing XP value to the disabling unit things would be ok as well.

    That would actually work quite well, not I think about it I was even playing a game recently that did that… Blackguards does it, I think?

    My main issue right now is that I’m trying to do what you might call “Low Impact Fixes”, which is the smallest change that gets the job done. The main reason for this is that the bigger the change I make, the bigger the risk that I’ll overlook something which causes another issue down the line I have to fix as well. We’re hoping this is the last patch we’ll need for a little while, so I’d rather not jeopardize it with more reckless changes.

    So, even though I actually think you have a good idea, it’s hard for me to do it, because it’s much more risky change than what I did today. The biggest risk of the “Once per battle” thing, is that some people might get a bit frustrated that leveling up is slower, with your suggestion though it’s possible there’s some situation we haven’t considered which causes your solution to upset people. It’s a much bigger code change as well, increasing the risk I make a mistake implementing it, which could cause a crash or something.

    #232794

    Stormwind
    Member

    Also, that sounds like it gives my little civil guard unit a decent chance to kill a frost giant 1v1…if the giant fails to resist vs net.

    #232795

    madmac
    Member

    Also, that sounds like it gives my little civil guard unit a decent chance to kill a frost giant 1v1…if the giant fails to resist vs net.

    It would be all kinds of broken in PVP fights. EG, you disable my (Hero, we’ll say) turn 1 with a Town Guard, and bam, instant kill. Whereas in a real fight keeping that hero alive or destroying the civic guard would be a simple matter of casting 1 or 2 spells.

    Obviously we’re not going in that direction, so just saying.

    #232796

    NINJEW
    Member

    civic guard vs cherub fight ends immediately when civic guard throws a net over the cherub, preventing potential spell casts

    a rogue trying to snipe a tigran city sends a single assassin to take out the single cheetah defending. the enchanted threads city defense building nets the assassin turn 1, immediately winning the battle for the defender

    #232798

    SpiritSeeker
    Member

    Yes, I was thinking along that line too. Normally, disables are temporary, and you might just live before you are killed while disabled. Especially if the enemy is still outnumbered.

    Imagine the potential power of a wisp now! If it survives a couple of attacks from melee units by stunning them on their first attack = win.
    Sending a small but strong army towards a weak army with disabling power would become rather risky then… Like, my one woman army of my precious level 18 druid with regrowth, 80 hitpoints, and 18 armor… Slain by an single ice ball throw.

    I fear that change could shift people to building cheap stun compositions…

    #232800

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think you don’t realize that what you sketch as a disaster would be a good thing. 🙂

    #232801

    Shakey
    Member

    Let’s not forget Lucky. A halfling could potentially live through the paralysis duration.

    Instantly ending combat sounds like a bad idea.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 201 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.