Game Suggestion to Stop Experience Farming

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This topic contains 200 replies, has 34 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 91 through 120 (of 201 total)
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  • #232803

    I think the current changes are enough.

    Heroes can no longer heal more than once.
    Abilities only grant XP on first use.
    Reduced XP counters on T2+ units.

    There is no need to fundamentally change the dynamics of 1v1 battles.

    #232806

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Because a DISABLED Halfling might have a chance to magically wind out of being killed by being 10 times lucky in a row?

    Yes, bad idea.

    Dude…

    #232808

    Shakey
    Member

    It’s not magic. It’s luck.

    Yes, I think it’s a bad idea to deny a unit a chance to use it’s base ability to survive.

    I don’t like changing the game, I like balancing the game.

    #232830

    NINJEW
    Member

    I think you don’t realize that what you sketch as a disaster would be a good thing.

    no? it would not be a good thing?

    #232848

    Stormwind
    Member

    I think you don’t realize that what you sketch as a disaster would be a good thing. :)

    I would call it broken!

    #232862

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Sleeping over it – yes, it would be even more of an incentive to go for “disabling” stacks (not that this incentive wasn’t there already).

    What we have now will hopefully do the trick and make everyone happy.

    #232875

    NINJEW
    Member

    Imagine the potential power of a wisp now! If it survives a couple of attacks from melee units by stunning them on their first attack = win.

    I think you don’t realize that what you sketch as a disaster would be a good thing.

    Sleeping over it – yes, it would be even more of an incentive to go for “disabling” stacks

    this is kind of amazing

    #233096

    cbower
    Member

    Fixes are now in the Open Beta:

    • Unit abilities that do no damage now only grant XP to their user once per battle
    • Reduced number of times tier 2,3 and 4 units can be attacked and still grant XP (XP for kills is unaffected by this)

    The counters work as described in my other post earlier in this thread, they just have lower values:

    Tier 1: 10
    Tier 2: 10
    Tier 3: 12
    Tier 4: 14

    Thanks for looking into this issue. The changes described above, in addition to the heal hero changes, seem to be a very solid step in the right direction. It may not be perfect, but I for one will take it.

    #236641

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I don’t know exactly how but XP farming is still happening, see this report: http://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=resultinfo&gamenumber=55
    Lvl 15 in 15 turns.

    Also, I think giving healing to ArchDruid in addition to Nourishing Meal is ridiculous. It means 2 heals per battle and 35 HP heal on the strategic map. It’s clearly not required. Nourishing Meal is enough.
    Removing healing won’t solve the XP farming problem for ArchDruid but it will maybe slow it a bit.

    Ideas to further slow XP farming?
    However, I have to highlight that gab is a very good player and I don’t think anyone can reproduce what he does. Clearly some of it is linked to his skills and he deserves it. But still, it should not be possible to get to lvl 15 by turn 15.

    #236642

    Gloweye
    Member

    I don’t think it’s a good idea to limit it even more. It’s going to be too large an effect on the non-competitive crowd, who still outnumber the competitive guys 99 to 1, if not more.

    It’s already limited pretty much on behalf of those matches – thinking about the first step being a 1-level limit per battle for example. It’s still a game more intended for fun, so min-maxers are going to get some results that might be more ridiculous.

    If you want more limits, I think you should consider making a mod that does it, once you isolate the strategy. I’m willing to help build it, but I don’t think those changes should be made to the base game.

    #236644

    Shakey
    Member

    As someone who players a lot of PBEM, I don’t think much more can be done without drastic changes. And I don’t like drastic changes.

    One small thing. When a hero offers to join, don’t let players murder the rejected hero for free xp and item.

    #236645

    cbower
    Member

    @hiliadan 15 by 15 is achievable I have only done it a few times though. If Gab achieved that one default PBEM 2015 settings that is truly impressive. I agree with Gloweye, I think it’s a PBEM problem that we should address ourselves. I think large, Far start, battle start, fastest play level minimizes hero leveling impact the most. IMO Hero leveling comes down to how quick you can assemble a team able to take down legendary and above sites. From there it becomes pretty easy and really takes off. So Roads, Water, Defenders Strength, number of sites. Basically anything thing that either effects pathing or creates heavier losses.

    Overall though the issue is we all want a fun game experience and we play at varying levels. It is not fun if the game session get’s too unbalanced. It’s tiresome to play PBEM for a month to get a surrender before any real player vs player battles, because one side has realized it is hopelessly out done. It’s frustrating to feel so helpless against a player like Gab. I hope we can use the rankings or tournament results to rate players, and come up with a handicap system. I can make a simple mods to allow skill level handicap specialization. We could create a squire, lord, king, emperor specializations. Each would have either bonuses or penalties to hero xp, gold, research, and mana. What do you think?

    #236647

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I don’t know. But ArchDruids are just too good for this. Healing + Nourishing Meal. Regrowth and Call Lightning? When you reach level 13 on turn 13, game is over for your opponent in a 1 vs 1. And even more when you get lvl 15 turn 15 and then gets the +5 skills.

    #236651

    cbower
    Member

    @hiliadan You can beat a level 15 hero. You just can’t on a small map on turn 15 with t2 units. Healing + Nourishing Meal. Regrowth and Call Lightning. I played a game with Shakey, I had level 15 hero and all those upgrades. He still died in auto because the AI is terrible with them.(He came back because resurge in auto was on) They sit around running up to everything healing, and then opponent AI flanks him to death. I won the fight because I had a team of t3 champs, not because of the super hero. The super hero power is in clearing sites not pvp. The extra healing is almost a liability in pvp.

    #236684

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Well, usually when you have a lvl 15 Archdruid, he doesn’t come alone. Elite King Spider Queens may also be at the party.

    We’ll see how the tournament goes but I think Archdruid is overpowered in our settings. I don’t want to play it so I cannot entirely prove my point but if I survive long enough, maybe I’ll train my Archdruid skills and try to emulate Gab.

    If there is really an exploit that allow rapid progression, I think it should be fixed. I don’t agree that it will decrease fun for solo players. How could it?

    A mod is not a solution as – as noted before by others – mods won’t be used in competitive MP.
    Tinkering with the settings may be more effective. But we’re already with far distance, few roads, etc. and strong defender (which actually boost available XP, despite what you said earlier in this post). One solution may be more roaming independent (to prevent creeping: you will need to stay closer to your cities) and less sites to clear (so less XP).

    #236688

    Gloweye
    Member

    There’s already enough limitation on there for MP’s sake. And it can limit the fun – I remember the introduction of the 1 level per combat limit, and I still don’t like it, as you may understand. That change was solely for MP’s sake. Healing has been completely changed, all for MP’s sake. It takes longer to get now, maybe with a exception for AD. That really hurt some solo fun where people not even half as skilled as you guys were using them for their first steps in leveling heroes.

    So yes, before any change is submitted, think about how it will affect people who play the game so different from you that you can’t even imagine it’s fun. For example, less than a week ago there was a guy on steam who asked why you couldn’t just turn all other players off to have an empire building game – PvE so you wish. I can’t imagine the fun of it either, but I do think we have to account for as many players as we can, and MP’s been having a pretty prominent place considered the relative amount of people that play it.

    #236698

    cbower
    Member

    Elite Spiders now your talking! Evolve and mind control do seem to have a lot of power. I don’t know perhaps your right. I don’t plan on playing Arch Druid either, maybe the tournament will change my mind. Basically I think that players like Gab are really good, and they can be effective with a variety of classes. I just don’t think Arch Druid is overpowered for PBEM. The class I would be worried about being overpowered for an early attack like your talking about would be Necro. Early healing, resurrection, control undead, inflict ghoul curse, they can build a pretty scary army through clearing.

    I usually end up playing classes probably not best suited for PBEM, I just like them more. It might be a death sentence like your suggesting, but I am hoping I can at least keep it competitive.

    #236708

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s been clear from the start that the problems are stemming from a sum of things, and disabling abilities obviously play a role – they are also fun, though.

    I see two ways to change things for the hard-core PBEM crowd:
    1) a mod reducing the counters further for XP giving;
    2) change the settings: a) all sites to few; b) Very Strong Defenders; add more WATER, play with NO ROADS; increase the costly terrain (this slows the game down)

    Lastly, I know why I have been suggesting to reduce all healing to once per battle, and if you consider how it worked in the predecessor (once per TURN, including between turns), it’s simply clear that the scene has changed in the last 10 years. There are obviously more people who like to heal/resurrect/lifedrain the crap out of things, probably because they can’t stand ANY loss anymore – gaming has become fairly easy nowadays. I don’t want to start telling from “the good old times”, but when gaming really got going, it was a normal thing you were beaten. You got clobbered in Warcraft (with the right difficulty level), you got beaten in MOO, AI coming over you with stacks of 32000 and even 64000 ships, you got it in Civ with ruthless riding peoples, even in Railroad Tycoon, for frag’s sake.
    Nowadays, people have to beat everything on highest levels without taking a scratch.

    The other day I started an open PBEM – 4 players. 1 quitter in turn 1. I mean, can you believe that. It’s like in these free or very cheap online poker tourneys: there are always idiots who just go all in in the first game, no matter their actual hand.

    Anyway. Result of this is that games generally are too soft on players nowadays, which is why Healing stuff is always way too good.

    #240086

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Following the discussions on Necro at level 7 and higher and on conversion, I reanimate (!) this post.

    Do you think XP farming is still an issue? I think the latest patches solved most issue but some remain.

    Heroes definitely can level up very quickly in manual combat and make production (and maybe summoning?) pretty useless, especially if they can convert/charm/reanimate their way through the map.

    What additional modifications could be implemented to fix this without spoiling the fun of SP and live-MP players?
    Maybe decrease again the “XP count” of all the tiers? Reduce the XP given for touch abilities?
    Does someone know where the current counts are? I cannot find them back.

    Reminders: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/about-experience-farming-how-is-experience-gained-exactly/ (and especially http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/about-experience-farming-how-is-experience-gained-exactly/#post-232441 which talked about the pre-patch values)
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Unit_Experience

    #240089

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think, a very easy solution would be to introduce 2 more hero XP ladders as a checkbox to pick like for defenders.

    The thought here is, that the default should be
    Current Ladder – Normal defenders
    Harder Ladder – Strong Defenders
    Hardest Ladder – Very Strong defenders

    However, obviously every combination would be possible, so in PBEM games, good players could always pick the Hardest Ladder, no matter the defender.

    Likewise, people who wouldn’t bother farming could simply play with the current Ladder.

    The regular Ladder is based on multiples of 50. For Hard you could simply take the same ladder, but with 65, 70 or 75 , for very hard, it could be 80, 85, 90 or 100.

    That would solve the problem elegantly.

    #240142

    Ananym
    Member

    Give healers a number of heal charges.
    Set a cap – say, three charges.
    Regenerate a number of charges per turn – say, one charge.

    Allow these charges to be used in exactly the same manner both in combat and in strategic.

    Now you can
    a) use several heals in a big fight,
    b) remove any reason to disable and heal in combat, (which is an absurd idea), because you can just do that after the fight,
    c) still prevent healers from offering crazy sustain over a long term, because they only heal at a rate of once per day even if they can bank those charges for big fights.

    Is it a nerf to the big sustain of theocrats? Sure. But big doesn’t have to mean infinite. Theocrats being able to just bunker down and sustain ranged damage forever is a facet of the game that I am A-ok with losing.

    While we’re at it,
    Killing or using abilities on units summmoned or reanimated in that combat should give vastly reduced or no experience.

    #240278

    Hiliadan
    Member

    @jollyjoker: as discussed in the other topic, that would not solve XP farming, though that would solve the fact that levelling happens faster than tech research and production.

    @Anamyn: I’m afraid it is not feasible with the current tools (mods).

    For me the issue now are:
    – you have an interest in getting to long range to shoot at an enemy unit in order to maximize the number of hits and thus the XP collected
    – it is interesting to drag the combat in order to use all your touch abilities at least once and maximize the XP collected

    Solutions I see:
    – reduce the XP gained at long range (is that possible?) e.g. by dividing it by 2
    – reduce XP of touch abilities to limit the gains from dragging combat, while at the same time maintaining the possibilities for Theocrat (for instance) to get XP even if they act as support only and do not directly fight. Another option would be to fully remove XP from touch abilities (or for touch abilities on allies) but that may have severe consequences for supports (including “support heroes”)
    – reduce the XP counts for all the tiers to limit the interest of artificially hitting multiple times a target (if the XP count is at 2, you have an interest in killing the target ASAP, instead of going long range and minimizing damage in order to have as many units as possible hit the target)

    No one answered to my question:
    Does someone know where the current counts are? I cannot find them back.

    #240281

    Gloweye
    Member

    – reduce the XP gained at long range (is that possible?) e.g. by dividing it by 2

    Currently, not possible.

    – reduce XP of touch abilities to limit the gains from dragging combat,

    There’s already the limit. Many touch abilities will only yield experience once.

    Does someone know where the current counts are? I cannot find them back.

    They’re in the unit Tier definitions, in title.rpk. From the top of my head, a unit can “give” EXP 10 times, not counting the deathblow EXP.

    That all said, I am against limiting EXP even more by official patch.

    However, you can easily mod in some lower limits by for example halving the amount of times a unit can give EXP before dying.

    #240298

    There’s also this limit
    X turns no damage done = combat is lost

    If X = 1
    then this is no complete fix
    but it would prevent some of the XPF tactics.
    And overall it could work somewhat as a slow-downer.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by  Pothead Pixie.
    #240300

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s not working: you can always force end of combat by simply retreating as the attacked, so someone need to cast spells all the time to keep things going.

    #240301

    Doesn’t that come with a penalty? I think MP is reduced to zero and -200 morale for a lost battle. Don’t try this 3 times in a row.

    #240302

    … I do see an issue with the start of combat, though. If the defender is not moving…

    #240303

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    No, I mean, it’s the ATTACKED turn. The AI wouldn’t retreat (a human might very well), but the AI may do nothing. So you MUST do damage when it’s your turn, and you may not able to, except when casting.

    #240304

    Got it (2x). Anyway, thanks for your explanaclamation.

    EDIT: And setting such a limit for the first, say, 3 turns (I think it’s only fair we should expect some aggression from the attackers part) is not possible by modding, I’m sure. This would be a nice fix though.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by  Pothead Pixie.
    #240306

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Yes and no (should we expect aggression from the attackers). A battle is also a positional “game”, in the sense that you have to position your army (which you have to do in battle, since there is no deployment). Then you have to consider terrain features, buildings, impassable hexes, cover and such. Lastly, you have to consider long-range action for both the attackers and the defenders.

    For example, if you fight a number of Wisps, you don’t want to mindlessly run into phasing range with all you’ve got.

    I don’t think, the current situation is bad – it’s probably just that the XP learning curve for heroes is just not steep enough: it should be more like
    50
    125
    200
    300
    425
    575
    750
    950
    1200…

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