Ghouls: Bonuses?

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Ghouls: Bonuses?

This topic contains 22 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Fenraellis 7 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 23 posts - 1 through 23 (of 23 total)
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  • #165836

    Teehon
    Member

    The “Ghoul” status gives a unit -1 Def and -20% Spirit Res, and also makes a unit undead, which gives a unit additional -40 Spirit Res and -40% Fire res, that’s -60 Spirit -40% Fire, that’s quite a lot, considering how many units use fire and spirit… What are the bonuses of being a Ghoul, on the other hand?

    #165837

    Thariorn
    Member

    Maybe there will be ways to profit from units having the ‘Ghoul’ state.
    *smile*

    Also, they’re undead, so the Archon Casters can heal them, can be a + too 😀

    #165838

    Ghouls/undead have 100% blight prot., are immune to mind control (except control undead) and are mostly immune to morale modifiers (which can be both good and bad). Also the necromancer class has unique city upgrades that make ghouls stronger and remove some of the weaknesses.

    Edit: And yeah, as Thar said they benefit from various features of the Necro class in general.

    #166066

    MadGAD
    Member

    In beta, using Spinoza thing, I found that on some stage of researching Necromancer’s tree they make all their heroes as archliches. That sutomaticaly turns all their living units in party to ghouls. That is very interesting thing, but I think this should be manually triggered by player for every unit than automatically for all party members. What if I need to save some living units for my undead nightmarish army? Every turn leave them from hero’s party and next turn bring them back?

    #166080

    If you really need a living unit just keep it away from the hero. Living units get no benefit from Necro heroes anyway.

    #166096

    MadGAD
    Member

    Yes, I think so about necroheroes, but in beta there are also other class heroes that turns to archlich status. Archlich Dreadnoughts, for example. Druids with all their healigh and warm nights, Warlords archlich with their field medic abilities…

    #166241

    vota dc
    Member

    Ghoul goblin sounds terrible: -1 def and they have already -5 hp and also they gain less benefits than other race with the bligh protection 100%

    #166305

    Gloweye
    Member

    Yes, I think so about necroheroes, but in beta there are also other class heroes that turns to archlich status. Archlich Dreadnoughts, for example. Druids with all their healigh and warm nights, Warlords archlich with their field medic abilities…

    Drac’s can remove your fire weakness, and AD’s reduce your spirit weakness while making your undead almost immune for frost damage. Warlords are epic, because strong will gives 100% spirit protection, resulting in a 40% net protection.

    Sure, healing abilities are wasted. Trust me, not a problem.

    Ghoul goblin sounds terrible: -1 def and they have already -5 hp and also they gain less benefits than other race with the bligh protection 100%

    Higher resistance against Blight Doctors. That’s about it. That said, they got cheaper healers as well..

    But yes, Necromancer will definitely synergize better with some races than others. Same as for all other classes…

    #166374

    MadGAD
    Member

    Well, maybe you are right, will see.
    But how about their appearance? I like new sscout units and don’t want to see them ghoulish-like!

    Because my way to play games is to see a different fantasy and fantastic worlds as to hear their stories, and balance issues for me is not a heart of all.

    So, only way for me for now is to separate armies and archlich heroes before end of the turn. WIll be disturbing but i can make it.

    #166504

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Well, the Archlich stuff, as you noticed, certainly helps Ghouls. As well as several of the empire upgrades and global/combat spells only applying to Undead units(or even Ghoul Undead specifically).

    Anyway, similar to Picard, the ‘Undead’ trait benefits and drawbacks:
    Benefits:
    — +100% Blight Protection
    — +40% Frost Protection
    — Mind Control Immunity, except for Control/Turn Undead and Necromantic Aura.
    — Immunity to most Morale debuffs effects, leading to few fumbles.
    — Immunity to several Inflict effects(not just due to Blight Protection).
    — Immunity to other specific effects such as Backstab.
    — Tag modifier for over half a dozen Necromancer abilities from Empire Upgrades and Global/Combat spells that can benefit Undead units specifically.

    Drawbacks:
    — 40% Spirit Weakness
    — 20% Fire Weakness
    — No benefit from most sources of positive Morale, leading to few critical hits.
    — No natural health regeneration.
    — Tag modifier for many effects which are dangerous for Undead(and other types sometimes) units.

    Ghoul just gets the extra -1 Def and Spirit Weakness, but they can also be produced from cities(only city-produced Ghouls can benefit) with a permanent buff as well. It’s not a direct counter to the penalty, but something else.

    #166518

    madmac
    Member

    – -40% Fire Protection

    *cough* 20% Fire Weakness, actually.

    #166556

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Boo, I was just copying the opening post rather than checking in game. Blame him. 😛

    (or something)

    Also, I never posted that, obviously.

    #166756

    vota dc
    Member

    High Elves ghouls have 80% blight protection?
    Tigran ghouls have no big weakness (20% fire and 20% spirit because they natural +40% spirit protection)?
    Frostling ghouls are melting snowmen with 40+20=60% fire weakness?

    #166786

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Frostling ghouls are melting snowmen with 40+20=60% fire weakness?

    Also, 60+40% Frost Protection for immunity. 🙂

    #166789

    Astraflame
    Member

    All that spirit weakness 😀 No surprise Theocrat is the Necro Achilles heel…. how will necro deal with human evangelist, priests?

    #166800

    Many heroes have skills that provide 40% spirit or fire protection to their entire army or devout/support slayer abilities. A WL hero can provide strong will to the entire party. Unholy Champion also affects devout and iirc necro heroes can give it to their whole army as well.

    The Necro also has a battlefield enchantment that helps him in this regard.

    The only way the Necro class would be really hard pressed vs. a Theocrat would be if Theo goes Creation Master for Bane of the Unnatural.

    #166804

    Bob5
    Member

    I’m actually more curious how Necro’s fare against Dreadnoughts. I think machines are immune to most of the tricks and debuffs that the Necro uses (like life stealing and ghouling units), as well as immune to blight and spirit damage.

    #166819

    Astraflame
    Member

    Well what about Armageddon, 120% spirit weakness, then holy box buffed by cheap devout units…50/50 spirit/fire damage… GG?

    #166853

    Gloweye
    Member

    Well what about Armageddon, 120% spirit weakness, then holy box buffed by cheap devout units…50/50 spirit/fire damage… GG?

    At least High Damage. However, pretty useless once you close the gap. That said, last Theocrat game I have dealt over 100 damage with a single shot, Armageddon running.

    #167000

    Gyor
    Member

    I saw in a pic Necromancers have spell called black lightening, might do a mix of blight and shock damage.

    #167091

    Gloweye
    Member

    I saw in a pic Necromancers have spell called black lightening, might do a mix of blight and shock damage.

    TBH, that isn’t a Necromancer skill.

    #167094

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    “Does that mean Dark Elves are coming back?”

    #167884

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Well, if you’re up against a Theocrat player, then a Warlord hero with Blood Brothers becomes a real gem. Other than that, there are a mix of options available to attempt to counter or mitigate weaknesses… or further increase strengths instead. It all depends on what one wants to do.

    That being said:

    I’m actually more curious how Necro’s fare against Dreadnoughts. I think machines are immune to most of the tricks and debuffs that the Necro uses (like life stealing and ghouling units), as well as immune to blight and spirit damage.

    It’s a tricky consideration. On the one hand, their three Incorporeal units will obviously handle the Physical damage of the Dreadnought well, but in return they won’t like the Fire damage. Dreadnought party leader for 40% Fire Protection and +1 Resistance perhaps? Then another +1 increase from an upgrade related source, then another +3 Resistance from Desecration. Incorporeal, +5 Res and +20%(40% -20%) Fire Protection should give them solid protection, even if it’s not perfect. That Dreadnought hero could even give them the elemental barrier spell they have, to make them Incorporeal and immune to Fire.
    Or run Fire Master and get Fire Halo, perhaps.

    Of course, the prolific Life Stealing(and Life Drain for Reapers) wouldn’t work against Machines. Neither would the Spirit or Blight damage that is common on Necromancer units. Bone Collectors have lots of HP and melee damage potential(and pure physical innate damage) and Demolisher, though, so they are in a prime position to fight. Then Banshees can potentially cause Machines to stun themselves after acting.

    All in all, while it is likely an uphill battle for a Necromancer(especially against Flame Tanks and Juggernauts with Fire aoe damage), they can potentially still do a decent job. It just might require them to utilize more Bone Collectors and Banshees, Racial units rather than most class units, off-Class spells and the like, if their Dreadnought opponent is going heavy on Machines.

    Of course, if their Dreadnought opponent is going heavy on Machines, then there is also a chance the Necromancer can outmaneuver them with their faster floating Banshees and flying Reapers hitting his less defended cities. And Flame Tanks are not usually left behind as city defense, making defenders most likely out to be Physical damage users… something which would fall horribly to Incorporeal units. Especially organic units against a Reaper.

    (cue pointless theory crafting time!)
    A stack of six T1 non-Draconian Archers and Infantry/Pike(and Physical, Blight or Frost Irregulars) would probably weep just to see a single Reaper, let alone potentially more than one, or even backed up with Banshees.

    Six Musketeers would only even do roughly 8 per shot, totaling 48 damage, to a Reaper(unranked!) that was in Guard Mode AND within their no-range penalty range. Leaving the Reaper at 18 HP, then it would proceed to fly over the wall and flanking two-shot a Musketeer(probably), and heal 12~20 HP from Life Drain(6~10 per hit). Meanwhile, the Musketeers then either Reload or melee the Reaper. If two melee to drain retaliations(presuming they get full hits, rather than being Energy Drained or triggering Fearsome by the Reaper) while the rest Reload, then they would probably deal about 2 damage per hit(3 Flanking), while the Reaper heals back another 6~10 HP per retaliation.

    Hmm, Reaper is back at around 40~50 HP, but there are only four to five Musketeers left, and only two that can Fire Musket(but the Reaper isn’t in Guard Mode this time, AND is likely being Flanked). So, the Reaper gets hit for an average of 30 by the three Flanking Musket shots, but this is where it gets dicey. Sacrifice another Musketeer to drain retaliations to waste time, or Reload with the two that have free actions. Either you lose the Musketeer that is sacrificed(while also healing the Reaper), or you Reload, and watch in dismay while the Reaper gleefully kills another Musketeer on its turn.

    …and it’s just downhill from there. They won’t be able to out damage the sustain most likely. All in all, while the six Musketeers could win, it would require a fair bit of luck on getting high rolls, or even Critical hits if they have positive Morale.

    Kind of funny that Hatchlings would be better suited on defense against such Undead than Musketeers, and cheaper to produce and upkeep as well. Maybe even Engineers, rotating between their Blunderbuss and Grenade.
    (end pointless theorycrafting!)

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