GOBLIN Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions GOBLIN Balance Discussion

This topic contains 141 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by  ariga 7 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #113197

    ExNihil
    Member

    OK Guys,

    Due to repeated public demand I am separating my Races and Classes thread into separate topics. I hope you will all participate :). My original idea was to discuss Races and Classes together in a way that could highlight the balance relations between them. I will try to inter-connect the different threads in a way that will do that, but I’m afraid there is no really good way to do it in a forum.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #113200

    ExNihil
    Member

    GOBLINS

    As the Orcs’ the racial traits of Goblins do not balance out well the positives with the negatives. Their traits: -5hp, +40% blight protection, -10% unit costs, +10% population growth, cave crawling, night vision, wetland’s walking. Likes: Wetlands, Dislikes: Tropical and Arctic, Hates: Volcanic.

    Current Issues:

    1. Due to the -5hp Goblin units and especially tier 1 units are extremely fragile. In particular Auto-Combat, which is the norm in MP games vs. independents and also common in SP for boring battles, is especially hard on Goblin’s with unit survivability being very low indeed. This makes creeping the strategic map very difficult and prevents the leveling of units, putting players in a significant disadvantage.

    2. Goblins rely on blight to an even greater extant then Orcs: all ranged Goblin units – Untouchable, Blight Doctor and Swarm Darter, the Big Beetle and special class units (e.g. Goblin Scoundrel) have dual channel physical and blight damage. As noted in the previous post Blight is one of the commonest forms of resistance (either first or second place next to fire) and is completely ineffectual against Machines (all Dreadnought t3-4 units, Trebuchet/Battering Ram/Ships and Theocrat t4) as well as many monsters (e.g. Reed Serpent, Gold Wyvern and all un-dead units) that have 100% blight resistance. This also contributes to the drastically reduced effectiveness of Goblin’s on the strategic map, while making Goblin’s ridiculously impotent vs. Dreadnoughts and Arch-Druid’s.

    3. The loss of units is in no way compensated for by their relatively cheaper price and increased population growth. -10% potentially accelerates the production of units, moving them from 2 turns to 1 turn earlier in game. This is a distinct advantage. Yet 10% of the unit price in gold and mana is insufficient to balance the losses incurred due to units’ deaths and the slowdown in military buildup incurred due to the need to replenish lost units. The increase of 10% in population growth does not translate into substantially increased income relative to other races and simply shaves off a little time from the growth of a settlement, especially in the early to middle phases of a game in which lower tier units still form the bulk of creeping armies.

    4. The advantage of Goblin’s in the underground is limited in MP games by the fact most players avoid using UG in their games because the UG is itself highly IMBA. Furthermore, in some situation Goblin’s are actually quite vulnerable in the UG as they hate volcanic and do not have lava-walking, opening them to attacks by Dwarfs and Draconians.

    5. While the Goblins are the only race who does not dislike or hates blighted terrain, they hate volcanic and dislike tropical and arctic. This makes huge swatches of normal surface maps very difficult for Goblins as they receive significant morale maluses which effect their combat performance and economy. Relative to other races Goblins are in fact the most imbalanced race topography wise.

    Rebalance Suggestions:

    1. The best solution in my opinion is an inverted mirror image of my previous suggestion for Orcs, that is to change the -5hp to a -10% physical resistance malus. With this modification t1 units at baseline will have a slightly higher hp vs physical attacks as they have now +- 1 point depending on the unit, t2 units will have similar hp and the t3 unit will have 3-4 points less. As the units level up the reduction will become steeper, on gold medal t1 units will have 5 points less effective hp vs physical attacks, t2 7-9 points less and t3 10 points less. This will also decrease by 10% the defensive roll against abilities that are rolled against the defense modifier (poison, throw net, bleeding etc.) Yet this will be limited to a single damage channel using the defense modifier and Goblins will thus have normal hp vs all damage incurred using the resistance channel, i.e. all elemental damage and ranged, and ofc 40% higher effective hp vs. blight damage and abilities using it (poison again, curses and so forth). This goes well with the notion of Goblins being physically weak and vulnerable, while not making them more vulnerable to elemental damage and magic, which is not justified by their concept at all.

    2. As I posted before, the blight resistance of machines must be reduced – playing a Goblin against Dread is just comical. I also think that the Goblin Blight Doctor should receive a special ability that causes the “deteriorate” condition in machines upon reaching Gold-Medal – this will give Goblins an interesting way of fighting off Dreadnoughts and other machines.

    3. If Goblin loses are decreased due to the change I propose in clause one then this will solve the problem here – the -10% discount and +10% increase in pop growth combine to a nice bonus in unit production cost/speed and development acceleration. As notes and discussed at length in the original Re-balance thread the introduction of over-spill production will further make this combination worthwhile and make Goblins a good choice in terms of military buildup. Yet if either or both of these changes do not occur then the only solution here is to further reduce the unit price and/or increase the rate of population growth.

    4. ATM it is not an intrinsic Goblin problem but rather a game setting/RMG problem. This situation is caused by the fact that the RMG for the UG is highly unbalanced. With changes to the RMG, that have been discussed in the re-balance thread and which I will re-post as a separate topic, this problem will be solved I hope. This will give Goblin’s a distinct edge in comparison with all other races except Dwarfs.

    5. I think that the dislike tropical is really out of place here – hating extreme environments Is understandable, but Goblin’s should either like tropical or be indifferent to it – they are after all a shirtless bunch of mosquito lovers. I further think that Goblin’s should actively like blighted, which will give them a proper edge in Surface maps relative to the other classes.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  President.
    #113399

    Ericridge
    Member

    Well considering that Goblins will need a class hero thus only combination is somewhat screwed against machines probably is Goblin Archdruid but even then they can take a single magic sphere to protect themselves against machines and then there’s rust strike spell.. Rust strike so brutal machines cry themselves when they deteriorate.

    Which is why I don’t care when people saying machines 100% immune to blight is silly.

    Classes: Archdruid, Sorceror, Theocrat, Dreadnought, Rogue, Warlord.

    Archdruid Goblin have spells to help them deal with blight immunity or simply ask other race for assistance against an temporary obstacle of machines.

    Sorceror Goblins? You have access to shock element now.

    Theocrat Goblins? They have magic spheres and another races to help out.

    Goblin Dreadnoughts? Meh Goblin Irregulars with sabotage. Musketeers. XD

    Goblin Rogue? Their scoundrels have Sabotage.

    Goblin Warlord? Dunno but the last time when I was involved with smashing machines apart with a human warlord.. I recall using tactics and brute force by applying swords to machine in physical contact.. and then massed trebuchets to support your forces for an fortified dreadnought cities.

    There is so many ways around blight immunity and machines don’t really need even more nerfs, they’re just about fine right now.

    And it isn’t right to look in one isolated thing and faint. You’re supposed to look at the whole picture. And I have barely played any goblins aside from my time with them in the campaign.

    #113415

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    Goblins are squishy. That is their thing, and I think it fits. It is the core of their balance problem, though. I feel that these problems will amount to nothing with the introduction of production overspill, which I am sure will benefit them most. But there is no saying if or when that will so. In the meantime they need something else.

    1) Goblins suffer most when having to rely on autocombat, this is for sure a major issua in mp. I completely agree with your suggestion of getting rid of the -5hp and adding the 10% physical weakness.

    2) Their reliance on blight damage is entirely justified imo. Blight doctors can use weaken on machines which is enough, imo.

    3) Yes: Use more goblins! Even cheaper units, even greater production bonus, more upkeep adjustment. It will still be difficult clearing the magical structure sites and leveling up.

    4) I am not going to comment on the RMG thing, as it is apparently being discussed in another thread.

    5) Goblins do like blight, don’t they?
    I am ok with goblins being ok with tropical climes or with being ok in general…
    I am also getting silly so now it is time to stop.

    #113423

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well considering that Goblins will need a class hero thus only combination is somewhat screwed against machines probably is Goblin Archdruid but even then they can take a single magic sphere to protect themselves against machines and then there’s rust strike spell.. Rust strike so brutal machines cry themselves when they deteriorate.

    Which is why I don’t care when people saying machines 100% immune to blight is silly.

    Classes: Archdruid, Sorceror, Theocrat, Dreadnought, Rogue, Warlord.

    Archdruid Goblin have spells to help them deal with blight immunity or simply ask other race for assistance against an temporary obstacle of machines.

    Sorceror Goblins? You have access to shock element now.

    Theocrat Goblins? They have magic spheres and another races to help out.

    Goblin Dreadnoughts? Meh Goblin Irregulars with sabotage. Musketeers. XD

    Goblin Rogue? Their scoundrels have Sabotage.

    Goblin Warlord? Dunno but the last time when I was involved with smashing machines apart with a human warlord.. I recall using tactics and brute force by applying swords to machine in physical contact.. and then massed trebuchets to support your forces for an fortified dreadnought cities.

    There is so many ways around blight immunity and machines don’t really need even more nerfs, they’re just about fine right now.

    And it isn’t right to look in one isolated thing and faint. You’re supposed to look at the whole picture. And I have barely played any goblins aside from my time with them in the campaign.

    I think we are having different kind of conversations to be Frank. I am not discussing whether one can play Goblin’s successfully – the point of this thread is to discuss their balance relative the other races and here Goblins appear very weak.

    #113454

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    Goblins are weak, squishy and full of poision.. how do we help them while still retaining their flavor..?

    A new Racial Buff for all Goblins

    Posion Aura- Every time an enemy unit performs a Melee or Touch attack against the unit, the enemy unit receives 2 Blight Damage and has a chance to be Poisoned. Posioned units suffer -2 Strength, -2 Defense and -2 Resistance.

    #113456

    1. Due to the -5hp Goblin units and especially tier 1 units are extremely fragile. In particular Auto-Combat, which is the norm in MP games vs. independents and also common in SP for boring battles, is especially hard on Goblin’s with unit survivability being very low indeed. This makes creeping the strategic map very difficult and prevents the leveling of units, putting players in a significant disadvantage.

    There are things planned, great, unreleased things, that should impact this.

    #113467

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ExNihil wrote:</div>
    1. Due to the -5hp Goblin units and especially tier 1 units are extremely fragile. In particular Auto-Combat, which is the norm in MP games vs. independents and also common in SP for boring battles, is especially hard on Goblin’s with unit survivability being very low indeed. This makes creeping the strategic map very difficult and prevents the leveling of units, putting players in a significant disadvantage.

    There are things planned, great, unreleased things, that should impact this.

    Do not defend broken mechanics with what will be possible future paid DLC.

    #113476

    Do not defend broken mechanics with what will be possible future paid DLC.

    I believe the change he is referring to is scheduled for the free patch, as it isn’t classed as new content.

    #113489

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Brutal_Felix wrote:</div>
    Do not defend broken mechanics with what will be possible future paid DLC.

    I believe the change he is referring to is scheduled for the free patch, as it isn’t classed as new content.

    If it comes out free I’ll retract my statement, it still doesnt address the fact there’s not even a time table for this and considering the game came out how long ago..?

    Its been said time and time again, only half of the races see any kind of regular play. It needs addressed before the small community gets even smaller from boredom.

    #113502

    ExNihil
    Member

    There are things planned, great, unreleased things, that should impact this.

    There might be – but since you beta-tester folks can’t talk about it, we are discussing possible remedies to the existing “broken mechanics”, as @brutal_felix referred to it :).

    #113504

    There might be – but since you beta-tester folks can’t talk about it, we are discussing possible remedies to the existing “broken mechanics”, as @brutal_felix referred to it .

    true, but BBB and I are just hinting that you should probably focus your brain cells on other areas than that one.

    #113505

    ExNihil
    Member

    My brain cells have long ego went to focus on other things my friend 🙂

    #113537

    Gloweye
    Member

    Is blight doctor weaken really that ineffective against machines? I’d like the Inflict Detoriation at Gold medal though….

    Further, good RMG for Underground should help them. lets wait that out and see…

    I support removing tropical from the Hated list, but not volcanic. Thats just been burned clear by lava, gobbo’s dont like that. Also, Draconians not having Cave crawling will take them enough behind goblins that the advantage is theirs.

    #113541

    HereticSage
    Member

    I must say, I think the problem with goblins is not their stats, but how BAD auto-combat is. It’s like the dirty secret no one wants to complain about. If auto-combat even slightly tried to use formation fighting for the players, the survivability rate would shoot up.

    #113586

    I like the idea of phys res malus for goblins, but I think the real problem is that they cannot replace losses quickly enough. The pop bonus really isn’t enough to give them a decent niche imo. Either this needs to increase in order to get enough of a noticeable benefit, or something like production spillover, which has been brought up, would work well I think (even if it means making them even squishier!). Would make them feel more “zerg-like” and give them a different play style, which I think this game really needs. This would also take care of one of the current problems of auto-resolve, in that you would be able to level up heroes at least, even if not other units- but hopefully balanced around being able to quickly field more lower medal v fewer higher medal of other races.

    #113634

    ExNihil
    Member

    I must say, I think the problem with goblins is not their stats, but how BAD auto-combat is. It’s like the dirty secret no one wants to complain about. If auto-combat even slightly tried to use formation fighting for the players, the survivability rate would shoot up.

    You are correct to a great extent. I have posted on this in the Rebalance of Existing Elements thread and will make a proper discussion in a new thread soon. Nonetheless, the goblin traits do not have the intended balance (see below).

    I like the idea of phys res malus for goblins, but I think the real problem is that they cannot replace losses quickly enough. The pop bonus really isn’t enough to give them a decent niche imo. Either this needs to increase in order to get enough of a noticeable benefit, or something like production spillover, which has been brought up, would work well I think (even if it means making them even squishier!). Would make them feel more “zerg-like” and give them a different play style, which I think this game really needs. This would also take care of one of the current problems of auto-resolve, in that you would be able to level up heroes at least, even if not other units- but hopefully balanced around being able to quickly field more lower medal v fewer higher medal of other races.

    Yes. The problem here is the balance between the -5hp, the population growth bonus and the unit cost decrease. Supposedly goblins die quickly but can be replenished extremely fast. Yet atm they cannot be replaced quick enough and the cost reductions do not balance this out. Also, experience is a vital element of the game and goblins get very very little of it. Changing auto-combat will help, but the real problem is the impact of -5hp on t1 and t2 units, which is already very bad, to which you should add the relative ineffectiveness of blight.

    #113648

    GeorgiSR
    Member

    Yes. The problem here is the balance between the -5hp, the population growth bonus and the unit cost decrease. Supposedly goblins die quickly but can be replenished extremely fast. Yet atm they cannot be replaced quick enough and the cost reductions do not balance this out. Also, experience is a vital element of the game and goblins get very very little of it. Changing auto-combat will help, but the real problem is the impact of -5hp on t1 and t2 units, which is already very bad, to which you should add the relative ineffectiveness of blight.

    How about some thoughts with the volunteer perk. If their upkeep is lower you can spam more units for less gold – which will further increase their effectiveness. I’ve played recently goblin rouge and the assassins are really cheap. Combined with improved AI without doubt will improve their gameplay.

    @exnihil

    A bit of topic – Check what I’ve proposed for your automation idea in the other thread 🙂

    #113709

    HereticSage
    Member

    One could also argue that buffing hp for tier 1 units across the board would benefit goblins the most.

    #113727

    ExNihil
    Member

    Indeed but that will simply contradict their racial malus – they do have -5hp, so if you give them extra hp you negate this malus.

    #113753

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    Indeed but that will simply contradict their racial malus – they do have -5hp, so if you give them extra hp you negate this malus.

    Not true.
    What he means is if you give every t1 unit in the game +5hp, then goblins will still have 5hp less but will profit the most. The problem with this is that most of the units you meet when creeping are … t1, which means they will also have +5hp. (apart from all the other balance issues that would arise if you raise all t1 hp)

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  President.
    #113781

    HereticSage
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ExNihil wrote:</div>
    Indeed but that will simply contradict their racial malus – they do have -5hp, so if you give them extra hp you negate this malus.

    Not true.<br>
    What he means is if you give every t1 unit in the game +5hp, then goblins will still have 5hp less but will profit the most. The problem with this is that most of the units you meet when creeping are … t1, which means they will also have +5hp. (apart from all the other balance issues that would arise if you raise all t1 hp)

    T1s still have the least defense, resistance, and/or offense, so they could be in equal hp to higher tiers and still be inferior. +5 hp will not make a strong difference.

    #113819

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, it will make the units more homogenous.

    #113822

    HereticSage
    Member

    Well, it will make the units more homogenous.

    Considering how much work has gone into differentiating racial strengths, no, I don’t think so. Also, making units more competitive does not make them more homogenized.

    #113834

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, let us continue our discussion assuming that such an hp increase will not happen and focus on Goblins which are the topic of this thread. If you would like to continue this discussion I suggest you start a thread concerning giving all t1 units a 5 hp bump and I assure you, you will have many participants.

    #114070

    Draxynnic
    Member

    5. I think that the dislike tropical is really out of place here – hating extreme environments Is understandable, but Goblin’s should either like tropical or be indifferent to it – they are after all a shirtless bunch of mosquito lovers. I further think that Goblin’s should actively like blighted, which will give them a proper edge in Surface maps relative to the other classes.

    Themes – the official developer term for the first part of terrain, such as tropical, blighted, etc – are never liked by default by a race, just like features (the second part – fertile plains, wetlands, etc – I’m not sure if this is an official term or not) are never disliked or hated. Not disliking blight, tropical, or any other theme is the closest a city can get to liking it without the appropriate city enchantment.

    That said, it is a valid point that bug-loving goblins might not dislike tropical environments. What might offset this, though, is that it’s possible that the stereotypical disease and insect-infested jungle might actually be regarded as blighted in game mechanical terms, while the tropical theme represents something a little less… virulant.

    It might also be that goblins are inherently an underground race, and are used to a relatively constant underground temperature. Tropical terrain might simply be too hot for them.

    I believe the change he is referring to is scheduled for the free patch, as it isn’t classed as new content.

    Correct.

    From what I’ve seen, the relationship basically goes that balance changes to existing elements will come out in free patches, including new abilities for existing units. DLC is for entirely new things like new units (such as will be found in the Lingling race), classes (and researchable skills) and the like.

    #114124

    ExNihil
    Member

    Themes – the official developer term for the first part of terrain, such as tropical, blighted, etc – are never liked by default by a race, just like features (the second part – fertile plains, wetlands, etc – I’m not sure if this is an official term or not) are never disliked or hated. Not disliking blight, tropical, or any other theme is the closest a city can get to liking it without the appropriate city enchantment.

    I was already told that in this thread a while back and thus know that. Furthermore, as I said – they should either like tropical or be indifferent to it – thus even in the official line my position is valid.

    That said, it is a valid point that bug-loving goblins might not dislike tropical environments. What might offset this, though, is that it’s possible that the stereotypical disease and insect-infested jungle might actually be regarded as blighted in game mechanical terms, while the tropical theme represents something a little less… virulant.

    It might also be that goblins are inherently an underground race, and are used to a relatively constant underground temperature. Tropical terrain might simply be too hot for them.

    Well, if we are gonna use this kind of explanation then we might as well go for science: there is a geothermal gradient in any planet with an active core and the deeper you go the hotter it gets, even at the poles. Temperatures might be constant, but I assume Goblins live in humid conditions, which with cold usually equates with extremely low temperatures. Thus it is only logical that their habitat is in fact a warm, humid, mosquito invested cavern. WOW this was a waste of mental effort :). Lets go to talk of actual balance, shall we?

    #114187

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Yes, it gets hotter as you go down as a general rule… however, there is a substantial drop as soon as you get a reasonable amount of thermal mass between you and the sun, at least during daytime.

    Which is, incidentally, raises the other point I was going to mention and forgot… goblins in most settings do not get along well with the terrible daystar, and tropical environments are likely to be the place where the sun is hottest and brightest. They might like warm, humid, muggy environments, but the line between tropical and temperate might be the point at which the direct heat and blinding light of the sun gets too much for them.

    From a balance perspective – while goblins are blocked off from larger portions of the map than most (except, well, humans and high elves if the underground layer is present) I think the idea is this is balanced by every other race having competition, while goblins have areas of the map where nobody else really wants to go. Compare orcs and draconians – what orcs get in return for hating volcanic is that they merely dislike blighted. Being able to do well in blighted terrain is supposed to be a big deal.

    (By the same logic, mind you, tropical is probably the least valuable theme that goblins don’t already tolerate.)

    #114219

    vota dc
    Member

    About Beetle. As base unit is a little inferior than other racial T3 but it also cheaper and has some non brawl values: can tunnel, can destroy wall and high mobility with 100% blight protection means can be used to creep absorbing blight attack of those nasty spiders. But what about medal skills?

    On bronze right now only firstborn has great skills:
    Firstborn get fire based chance to 3 damage, -2 attack, -1 defense, -1 resistance for 2 turns
    Shocktrooper get +2 attack against armored
    Flyer and Gryphon get chance to 4 damage for 2 turns
    Knight get chance to lower mp for 2 turns (could mean one attack less)
    Beetle get blight based chance to -2 resistance

    On gold
    Firstborn get +5 fire damage if hit in melee and chance to 3 damage, –2 attack, -1 defense, -1 resistance for 2 turns
    Shocktrooper get +5 defense in retaliation and attack of opportunity
    Flyer and Gryphon get unlimited retaliation and attack of opportunity
    Knight get 100% spirit protection and mind control immunity
    Beetle get blight based chance to 4 damage for 2 turns but that damage can’t be healed on strategic map

    At the end beetle gained skills are the weakest. Like the firstborn are elemental based but they aren’t that strong on the tactical map.

    #114268

    ExNihil
    Member

    You are right. What do you propose? How would you balance this?

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