Goblin Blight Doctor Weakening

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Goblin Blight Doctor Weakening

This topic contains 24 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  quo 7 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #166898

    After a really nasty siege battle against goblins, isn’t medium range weakening too much? They were weakening, then poisoning dreadnought machines to death, which is all kinds of absurd thinking about it.

    I’m imagining how nasty it would be to use halflings against goblins, with massed irresistible luck negation combined with damage increase.

    Logically, I figure a physical resist would feel about right, so that poisoning machines is just unlikely as opposed to impossible. Irresistible debuffs really should be either rare or hard to use or not very strong. Weakening is now none of those.

    #166901

    chronobomb
    Member

    On the flip side, you are playing the new patch which balances undead, which are pretty much immune to poison and highly resistant to ice. This eliminates most of the goblins ability to inflict damage.

    So weaken is balanced against that.

    #166907

    Even ignoring the effects on blight damage, weakening is nasty. Being irresistible, it’s good even if it’s goblin dreadnought or something that really isn’t using blight damage at all. Irresistible effects this good shouldn’t be this spammable.

    I don’t see what’s wrong with Goblins needing class features to deal with incorporeal undead. Orcs still do. Goblins certainly don’t need the help against machines in this patch, given their melee damage bonus. Or if it’s really so important for goblins to be able to take on incorporeal undead without class features, give weakening a spirit resist.

    #166908

    chronobomb
    Member

    Actually they changed the goblins so they do less physical and more blight damage now.

    Changing it to a spirit resist is hardly fair against machines who have 100% spirit protection. They need a way to neutralize machines. Otherwise a theocrat goblin would have major problems against dreads.

    The range debuff is the same range as their attack, it’s not likes curse which is the whole battlefield. Juggernought and cannons never have to come into their range.

    #166913

    Again, goblins don’t need poison damage against machines, which doesn’t make any sense to begin with. The new demolisher ability works fine.

    I only suggested spirit resist if a race absolutely must be able to counter incorporeal undead without class features or specializations. Which is pretty ridiculous to begin with , as what is leader design for if not situations like this? Physical resist makes more sense to me.

    #167011

    quo
    Member

    Actually I’m glad to see they’ve added more ways to attack Machines. In the current game there are just too many units that are useless against Machines. There really did need to be some way to lower their resistance. Free 100% resistance against two attack types with no way to lower it except Degenerate is too much.

    Anyway Blight doesn’t have to mean Poison. It could also mean Acid or any other kind of substance that would damage a non-living creature. I always hated how there are so many units completely immune to it. Same with Divine.

    #167074

    terrahero
    Member

    Machines were balanced with the idea that they were immune to blight and spirit. The price for this was no regen, significant weakness to shock, weakness to machine specific counters, low mobility.

    Then Flametank got nerfed (in the previous patch), Golem is now tier2 with adjusted stats so also weaker. And the things they were good against have been given more, and better, tools to deal with machine-type units. Wild Magic was introduced that also added more tools to deal with 100% protection such as machines, and i might be wrong on this one, but iirc some machine specific spells (i.e rust strike) got buffed.

    In return Engineer now gives a lesser Regeneration to machines units in the same stack, so they slowly recover health. But everything else still stands.

    #167127

    chronobomb
    Member

    Well in the case of blight doctors they had weaken its now just gotten 3 more hex range to medium, same range as arrows and bolts, which really helps in sieges.

    It’s not like curse which can span the battle field and it’s only good every other turn now.

    #167138

    The extra range means blight doctors can weaken trebuchets and cannons in siege. Perhaps more importantly, because it only requires a single action point, it means it’s basically impossible to preempt a weaken attempt, which also leaves the doctor too far to easily kill. The doctor stays safely far, moves in to weaken, then survives to next turn where it can deliver a triple attack.

    One of many changes could make this less ridiculous.

    1) Weaken could do nothing except destroy blight resistance. The other effects of weaken are really powerful too.

    2) Make it require 3 action points, so the doctor can be preempted.

    3) Make it one battle use only, so it’s not so spammable.

    4) Make it have a resist. Physical resist is best, so golems aren’t completely out of luck against goblins. Marauders chop up golems shockingly fast even without weakening. With it, golems just don’t stand a chance. I don’t really understand the opposition to giving it a resist. No-resist debuffs are ridiculously rare, and on T4s or heroes, not T2 racial supports, and none of them are as spammable as weaken.

    #167176

    Teehon
    Member

    I agree, that the ability is a bit too good right now. It should be either resistable with a weaker effect on failure, or only -40% Res but no morale and stat malis.

    And also the defensive structure – damage AND weaken, waaay too much. Compare to the Orcish one for example – 10 times less effective for the same cost.

    #167359

    Blight damage isn’t poison damage or rather that’s not all it is the same way Spirit isn’t really Holy. Don’t think about these things in Shadow Magic terms.

    When it comes to machines think of Weaken as making them more susceptible to rot, mold, rust, acid and various “entropic forces”.

    In return Engineer now gives a lesser Regeneration to machines units in the same stack, so they slowly recover health. But everything else still stands.

    The Flame Tank has reinforced again (+4 def vs. ranged). Engineer also got the flash grenade and is armored meaning it’s affected by Solid Engineering. Also, the Cannon does 30 dmg now (up from 25) and the Summon Siege Engine spell now never summons a Ram and has a chance to give you a Juggernaut.

    And while a t2 golem is technically weaker than a t3 golem it’s still quite strong relative to its tier. But maybe it could use another point of resistance. It could also lose armored since it’s just a debuff for it (def would stay the same). There’s no need for both machine and armored.

    #167440

    vota dc
    Member

    But it would lose +1 defense and 10% discount from class upgrade!

    #167499

    NuMetal
    Member

    I strongly disagree that Weakening is too strong.
    Blight damage is the most resisted damage type of all and Goblins highly rely on it.
    Even without Undead the simple existence of machines would make Goblins almost useless since about half of their damage is just ignored by them. With weakening they are still worse than other races against amchines etc, but at least they can now fight back a bit.
    Also you have to keep in mind what else they are missing for having Weakening: They don’t have any healing or buffing ability like the other supports (Storm Sisters not included).
    Goblins NEED the Blight Doctors with their Weakening.
    When playing against them with machines you are still vastly superior (even if Weakened) and you could easily just dispel/cure disease away the weakening.
    Maybe that’s something you need to get used to but with the changes to Break Control/ Dispel/ Cure Disease / etc it is actually rather useful/important to have units/heroes with these abilities with you.

    #167578

    haloloki
    Member

    Well there adding a whole lot of stuff that effects undead differently so why not just do a weaken does this vs machines and undead and this vs everything else

    also i do agree maybe a once per battle but it might then get buffed to compensate (not saying i want it buffed just saying it might)

    #167579

    But it would lose +1 defense and 10% discount from class upgrade!

    Solid Engineering affects machines too and Mana Fuel Factories make them 10% cheaper as well. Not sure if Great Blacksmith and MFF stack if a unit is both machine and armored.

    #167632

    I strongly disagree that Weakening is too strong.<br>
    Blight damage is the most resisted damage type of all and Goblins highly rely on it.<br>
    Even without Undead the simple existence of machines would make Goblins almost useless since about half of their damage is just ignored by them. With weakening they are still worse than other races against amchines etc, but at least they can now fight back a bit.<br>
    Also you have to keep in mind what else they are missing for having Weakening: They don’t have any healing or buffing ability like the other supports (Storm Sisters not included).<br>
    Goblins NEED the Blight Doctors with their Weakening.<br>
    When playing against them with machines you are still vastly superior (even if Weakened) and you could easily just dispel/cure disease away the weakening.<br>
    Maybe that’s something you need to get used to but with the changes to Break Control/ Dispel/ Cure Disease / etc it is actually rather useful/important to have units/heroes with these abilities with you.

    I still don’t understand why goblins as a race must be able to handle everything ignoring class and specialization. With demolisher, they are already clearly better at handling machines ignoring class and specialization than humans, orcs, or halflings. Again, why do we have leader design if it’s unnecessary? And why ignore that goblins have received multiple buffs already, between demolisher and increase in pop growth?

    More to the point, weakening is really strong even completely ignoring blight damage. Plus 1 damage to all damage channels, reduced enemy damage output, luck negation for halflings, all on a long lasting, irresistible, uncounterable, highly spammable skill, is completely disproportionate to being on a basic T2 support. Being irresistible, dispel is not a counter, it would require the other side commit 2 support turns for every doctor turn.

    Weaken would serve it’s purpose fine if it were resistible like every other T2 offensive secondary ability on a channel separate from blight. Alternatively, making it harder to use, less spammable, doesn’t change its usability when it’s actually necessary.

    Or if for some reason, goblins uniquely (but apparently not orcs) must have the irresistible ability to inflict blight weakness despite goblins (but not orcs) being already able to chop machines up easily, then eliminate those secondary effects. They are strong enough to make dispelling the effect a must for the other side instead of a choice. And they are strong enough that anyone with goblins should use it, instead of choosing so as a complement to blight damage.

    #167676

    I still don’t understand why goblins as a race must be able to handle everything ignoring class and specialization.

    You’re exaggerating.

    With demolisher, they are already clearly better at handling machines ignoring class and specialization than humans, orcs, or halflings.

    Are they? The beetle does 11/6 phys/blight dmg. Vs. a machine it will do 11 + 4 (from demolisher) = 15 physical dmg. A knight does 16, more if we count devastating charge. Most racial t3s will do the same or more. The Eagle Rider is a fringe case that sacrifices damage for speed and Wing Beat, their value is not specifically measured in how they do vs. machines against which they do just as well as against anything not resistant to physical damage.

    As for the Marauder, well surely there are ways to handle t1 infantry which is probably the most skipped over unit category except maybe t1 skirmishers. If someone’s spamming Marauders you’re not going to counter-spam Golems now, are you? Ranged machines can handle them with no trouble at all.

    Orcs don’t rely on blight nearly as much as goblins, they have physical power and war cry. Also Orcish Priests do blight/cold damage now with their ranged attack.

    Blight Doctors have 31 hp, 9 def and use the worst damage channel in the game. Without Weaken (that works reliably) they have nothing going for them.

    It is nasty that walls extent the range of these abilities in sieges (same goes for convert) I’ll give you that.

    #167695

    syntax_vi
    Member

    yeah I don’t think the better weaken is much of an issue as of yet. At medium range the bight doctor weakening was often a suicidal move. Massed marauders really are not going to get you very far against a dreadnaught army, and the reason why beetles get demolisher is because they lost quite a bit of physical damage, and need it to compensate.

    Goblins are actually a workable race right now, which is great. If it really becomes and issue after further play testing i’m sure it can be tweaked.

    #167702

    Are they? The beetle does 11/6 phys/blight dmg. Vs. a machine it will do 11 + 4 (from demolisher) = 15 physical dmg. A knight does 16, more if we count devastating charge. Most racial t3s will do the same or more. The Eagle Rider is a fringe case that sacrifices damage for speed and Wing Beat, their value is not specifically measured in how they do vs. machines against which they do just as well as against anything not resistant to physical damage.

    As for the Marauder, well surely there are ways to handle t1 infantry which is probably the most skipped over unit category except maybe t1 skirmishers. If someone’s spamming Marauders you’re not going to counter-spam Golems now, are you? Ranged machines can handle them with no trouble at all.

    Orcs don’t rely on blight nearly as much as goblins, they have physical power and war cry. Also Orcish Priests do blight/cold damage now with their ranged attack.

    Blight Doctors have 31 hp, 9 def and use the worst damage channel in the game. Without Weaken (that works reliably) they have nothing going for them.

    It is nasty that walls extent the range of these abilities in sieges (same goes for convert) I’ll give you that.

    Any race can handle machines physically (including now goblins) unless they get blocked off by golems from getting into melee. Elves have the advantage of golems being suicide against them. Now goblins have the same advantage.

    No one, certainly not me, have suggested eliminating weakness altogether. Goblins with the current weaken is better than anyone except elves at killing machines, which simply doesn’t make any sense. More importantly, no one yet has responded to my point that weaken is extremely powerful against anyone, especially halflings. It is nothing like merely an ability that a player can choose to use to complement his blight damage channels. It’s a nobrainer that you use on everything to support dealing damage with anything. I would have nothing against a weaken that only deals blight vulnerability.

    A weaken with resist will still leave them at least on par with most races, combined with demolisher. Say, with a physical resist set at 11, Golems will be the only ones reliably shrugging it off.

    I don’t understand why the frame of conversation should even be at how machines could, with higher tech levels and more investment, be able to counter goblins, and so it’s fine. Shouldn’t it be the other way around, with machines being a weakness of goblins that goblins could, with work, deal with?

    #167703

    @syntax

    The main reason Beetles got demolisher is because they have wall crushing but they sucked at crushing walls because so much of their damage was blight. They should be more useful for assaulting walls now.

    The beetles’ increased effectiveness vs. machines is more of a side effect but not an unwelcome one.

    I don’t understand why the frame of conversation should even be at how machines could, with higher tech levels and more investment, be able to counter goblins, and so it’s fine.

    That’s not the frame of the conversation. It just so happens that all Dread machines except for the Golem are t3 or higher so using machines inherently means using high tier units, there’s no way around it. This whole issues seems to be golems vs goblins rather than dreadnought vs goblins.

    Goblins with the current weaken is better than anyone except elves at killing machines…

    How can this be true when there’s still 40 blight protection left after weaken? How can this make goblins better at killing machines compared to a race that doesn’t rely on blight in the first place? The def/res debuff is universal so it’s a moot point.

    Not only that but 1 Doctor can only weaken one unit and then the ability goes on cooldown and there’s a good chance the Doctor’s not going to live for 2 more turns. Do you bring 3-4 Doctors? Who’s going to do the actual damage then if it’s an equal battle? You’re making it sound like the existence of Blight Doctors auto-applies weaken to every machine on the map.

    They’re frail and slow, using up unit slots for them is far from a no-brainer I’d say.

    #167718

    Astraflame
    Member

    And while a t2 golem is technically weaker than a t3 golem it’s still quite strong relative to its tier. But maybe it could use another point of resistance. It could also lose armored since it’s just a debuff for it (def would stay the same). There’s no need for both machine and armored.

    Never had 17 def golems fresh from the factories? Armored is awesome thanks to Enchanted Armory. Idk why lightning weakness must remain 40%, 20% should do for a t2 unit with measly 9 res.

    #167725

    How can this be true when there’s still 40 blight protection left after weaken? How can this make goblins better at killing machines compared to a race that doesn’t rely on blight in the first place? The def/res debuff is universal so it’s a moot point.

    Not only that but 1 Doctor can only weaken one unit and then the ability goes on cooldown and there’s a good chance the Doctor’s not going to live for 2 more turns. Do you bring 3-4 Doctors? Who’s going to do the actual damage then if it’s an equal battle? You’re making it sound like the existence of Blight Doctors auto-applies weaken to every machine on the map.

    They’re frail and slow, using up unit slots for them is far from a no-brainer I’d say.

    Because you don’t deal with machines by hitting them with blight. You deal with machines by killing their defense/res/happiness, then chopping them up physically. Especially now, there’s always going to be someone else to use blight attacks on in the off turns between weakening. This is not so different from how every other race but elves deal with machines, with the big difference that golems can’t be used to keep goblins from closing to melee just like golems can’t be used against elves.

    Again, of course, ignoring the fact that weaken is super good against nonmachines. I mean, my very first post is describing how I got wrecked as Dread, but was imagining how much worse it would be for anyone else, especially halflings.

    #167728

    …my very first post is describing how I got wrecked as Dread, but was imagining how much worse it would be for anyone else.

    It doesn’t really go into much detail but a siege is very different and walls extend the range of Weaken by 2 hexes just like with any ranged attack. Doctors and Darters on wall would be nasty for anyone.

    Next time you play you’ll use cannons or trebuchets to break apart walls and kill defenders from range. You’ll keep your dread leader in the back to repair. You’ll probably be able to force them to come out and charge you. Engineers with flashbangs as well as the spell can be used to blind targets so they can’t use any ranged attacks or abilities.

    You probably charged in not knowing what weaken does now and got an unpleasant surprise but you should use it as a learning experience.

    #167730

    It doesn’t really go into much detail but a siege is very different and walls extend the range of Weaken by 2 hexes just like with any ranged attack. Doctors and Darters on wall would be nasty for anyone.

    Next time you play you’ll use cannons or trebuchets to break apart walls and kill defenders from range. You’ll keep your dread leader in the back to repair. You’ll probably be able to force them to come out and charge you. Engineers with flashbangs as well as the spell can be used to blind targets so they can’t use any ranged attacks or abilities.

    You probably charged in not knowing what weaken does now and got an unpleasant surprise but you should use it as a learning experience.

    I notice you have neither responded to any of my substantive points, nor dealt with the fact that I already know dread can, with a great deal of effort far more than that invested by the goblins, deal with the situation, but am concerned about the viability of any nondreads in the same situation.

    #167735

    quo
    Member

    A Blight Doctor using Weaken can’t attack or Guard on the same turn. A single Cannon blast and he’s gone, due to extremely low defense and HP. Maybe a Theocrat could keep the Goblin alive longer, but that’s what Theocrats do.

    As for comparisons to Throw Curse:
    – Throw Curse has a much larger range
    – Throw Curse has a bigger debuff to defense, resist and happy (-300 happy, -2 defense -2 resist)
    – Throw Curse lasts the entire combat, not just 5 turns
    – Throw Curse’s “miss” effect, -Move, is often extremely useful as well

    A well used Blight Doctor can certainly rain on anyone’s parade, but I don’t think it’s overpowered. It does make me want to roll up some Goblin Rogues and Arch Druids tho. 😀

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