Gryphon riders should be armored

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Gryphon riders should be armored

This topic contains 16 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  vota dc 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
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  • #194428

    Yarovit
    Member

    All but support elven racial units are armored, including archers. Gryphon riders aren’t. I think their defence could be nerfed to 10- they curently have 12- and they get armored.

    #194436

    This again? It is unlikely to go through in light of the high elf sword buff, and people don’t want high elves to be the best ad, warlords, and dreadnoughts all at once.

    #194439

    Yarovit
    Member

    I thought dwarves are op race. How little I know…

    #194441

    vota dc
    Member

    It would be very weird a defence of only 10 on an armored T3 but I think that wouldn’t be unbalanced: for dreadnought would mean more gryphons but weaker (10% discount and 11 defence), for other classes would mean weaker gryphons unless you get enchanted armor.

    #194442

    Ravenholme
    Member

    This again? It is unlikely to go through in light of the high elf sword buff, and people don’t want high elves to be the best ad, warlords, and dreadnoughts all at once.

    Ah good, I wasn’t just imagining that there had been a thread on this before.

    Yeah, we covered this ground back last year sometime around Summer, the consensus was that it would make Gryphon Riders (and Elves) far too good, with synergies with too many classes beyond what they already have.

    #194448

    Yarovit
    Member

    It would be very weird a defence of only 10 on an armored T3 but I think that wouldn’t be unbalanced: for dreadnought would mean more gryphons but weaker (10% discount and 11 defence), for other classes would mean weaker gryphons unless you get enchanted armor.

    Base would be 10 which would mean he got 12 with armored, like they do now.

    Ah good, I wasn’t just imagining that there had been a thread on this before.

    Yeah, we covered this ground back last year sometime around Summer, the consensus was that it would make Gryphon Riders (and Elves) far too good, with synergies with too many classes beyond what they already have.

    I was not aware of discussion about it. I just thought it’s strange all other elves are armored but their T3 isn’t. I don’t really think it would be op because at best, if his defence remained 12 with armored he’d reach 13 with Dreadnaught, 15 with both Dreadnaught and crystal tree or 14 with just crystal tree. Still less than Firstborn with same upgrades.
    But if it was discussed and discarded I guess there’s nothing more to be said about it. Just a question, when was it discussed, before or after GR?

    #194451

    There are no OP races.

    #194452

    unmog
    Member

    I was not aware of discussion about it. I just thought it’s strange all other elves are armored but their T3 isn’t. I don’t really think it would be op because at best, if his defence remained 12 with armored he’d reach 13 with Dreadnaught, 15 with both Dreadnaught and crystal tree or 14 with just crystal tree. Still less than Firstborn with same upgrades.<br>

    Im actually neutral. I mean your point makes sense to me, I just honestly dont use elves all that much. Id say if the model of the unit is wearing armor though it should be considered armored. I never considered grif riders OP though.

    The main reason I replied though was because this part

    But if it was discussed and discarded I guess there’s nothing more to be said about it. Just a question, when was it discussed, before or after GR?

    This way of thinking I vehmently disagree with. You have just as much right as anyone else to discuss anything you want to, regardless if other people talked about it before without you. It’s just silly really. Im sure if everyone started making posts about the griff riders deserve armor if they thought so then that would be the community speaking up about something they thought was important.

    Look at the steam fiasco with them wanting to make skyrim mods in the workshop payable, but only giving the modders 25% and taking away people’s mods [and breaking their game] they had already legitimately acquired before the paywall was implemented. The outcry was so much that the entire thing was axed four days in. Could you imagine if that had people chastising others that “this conversation has already been had, theres no point in sharing your own opinions or voice on the matter”. *shakes head*

    #194453

    SiaFu
    Member

    First time I’d noticed this, I too was disappointed that my Elven city with a Crystal tree and Vault of Knowledge couldn’t produce uber Gryphon Riders as well as Longbowmen.

    But after seeing this:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/gryphon-riders/

    and this:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/elf-gryphons-unarmored/

    I’m fairly sure they won’t get that trait anytime soon.

    BTW: Google advanced search or just add:
    site: http://ageofwonders.com/forums
    and you can find all sorts of useful threads.

    #194458

    Meeky
    Member

    I was not aware of discussion about it. I just thought it’s strange all other elves are armored but their T3 isn’t. I don’t really think it would be op because at best, if his defence remained 12 with armored he’d reach 13 with Dreadnaught, 15 with both Dreadnaught and crystal tree or 14 with just crystal tree. Still less than Firstborn with same upgrades.

    Well… It would be yet another unit that would be useful to yet another class I think is the point being driven home. On its own a Gryphon Rider with Armored wouldn’t be all that huge; but giving it to a race that’s already considered one of the best races in the game with great synergy with a few classes…

    Also, consider this: your Gryphon Riders for a Dreadnought would be cheaper, have higher armor, have pistol, and still have all the benefits of being T3 flying units. This goes with a race that, as you noted, already has a ton of Armored units; it would just further solidify the High Elf as a good choice for a Dreadnought. And it already IS a good choice for a Dreadnought, and a really good one at that.

    As an aside, compare the Halfling Eagle Rider with the High Elf Gryphon Rider. I love the Eagle Rider, but it’s generally speaking a worse unit all around. Even though Backstab is great, for instance, the Gryphon Rider gets Tireless of all things, making it great on the defensive as well as on the offensive. Tack on Armored and, well… I can already imagine some shenanigans using a High Elf Shadowborn Dreadnought…

    And if you lower their normal Defense to make up for it, others have made good points: they’d be worse for other classes at that point. Small changes really do mean a lot in this game.

    So, yeah. I think the Eagle Rider is fine, and that it’s a good thing it’s not Armored. It was counter-intuitive when I first saw that, but as someone that plays lots of Dreadnoughts… Yeah, if they were Armored I’d be sorely tempted to just stop playing my Goblin Dreadnought entirely. High Elves, Dwarves, and Humans all have a lot of benefits over Goblins in that department already with the Musketeer nerf.

    #194460

    freese2112
    Member

    Just from a common sense perspective – I think that the weight of the armor would preclude a flyer from having that ability. It make more sense that the defense rating of a Gryphon Rider relates more to “difficulty to hit” rather than the ability to absorb a blow.

    And like it’s been said – the “stackability” with Dread would be downright sick.

    I will say that from a Mythical Upgrade “synergy” perspective, the Gryphon Rider (along with the Goblin Beetle) is towards the bottom of the racial T3. For the GR that’s not a problem IMO because it’s so strong in it’s “base” form. It’s especially scary what the potential upgrades add to the ST & FB.

    #194461

    Yarovit
    Member

    This way of thinking I vehmently disagree with. You have just as much right as anyone else to discuss anything you want to, regardless if other people talked about it before without you. It’s just silly really. Im sure if everyone started making posts about the griff riders deserve armor if they thought so then that would be the community speaking up about something they thought was important.

    Look at the steam fiasco with them wanting to make skyrim mods in the workshop payable, but only giving the modders 25% and taking away people’s mods [and breaking their game] they had already legitimately acquired before the paywall was implemented. The outcry was so much that the entire thing was axed four days in. Could you imagine if that had people chastising others that “this conversation has already been had, theres no point in sharing your own opinions or voice on the matter”. *shakes head*

    I agree but you didn’t understand me. I’ve stated my opinion- not op- and latter part was suppoused to prevent repeating of previous discussion. On the other hand it’s been a while since said discussion so you’re right, why not repeat it.
    Still, I fail to realise how it would make elves op.

    #194463

    Meeky
    Member

    Can’t edit my old post for some reason. I think the Gryphon Rider is fine. We have too many Riders in this game. What… three Riders?

    …Three is too many? My God, I need to start drinking so I have an excuse to talk like this.

    #194470

    Buczer
    Member

    You must ask yourself: does lack of armour makes Gryphon useless? Not fun to play? Not flexible? It makes elven gameplay less interesting or more interesting? More unique or less unique? And the most important – do that make any difference except making elven stronger as a whole? Maybe a little weaker GR is good, becouse its not decisively stonger than other t3 flying units in elven roster, and encourege you to mix units more?

    Personally i find that unit having many usefull traits and i dont really think it needs armoured trait.

    #194499

    It is widely considered among the better t3 racial units as is for a few reasons. The first is first strike. That lets it attack pikes better than other t-3s, counter charging units, and brawl well even with superior melee units (first strike units get four strikes when defending vs. Three for normal units).

    Tireless at gold repairs the inherent weakness (being drained of retaliations)and makes them superior defenders. Obvious synergy with shadowborn and keeper buffs.

    Then there are their stats: they get really solid defense, and good elf resistance at 12. Low HP, sure, but first strike rather makes up for it.

    And then there are the strategic benefits. It is never bad to have a tough flying unit, as you get mobility and power. Unlike firstborn or shock troopers, you don’t have to slow down cavalry stacks. AD and Sorcerer and Rogue and theocrat high tier armies all fly, swim, or float, so you’ll want to keep up.

    The attraction to warlords is obvious, and dread has already been discussed. They are also useful supplements to classes that ordinarily don’t like elves, necromancers and theocrats. Gryphon’s work well with exalted, espeicially evolved martayrs, as they provide a dedicated melee option backed by absorb pain.

    Even necromancers could use ghoul gryphon riders, as they provide first strike and a meaty flyer not dependent on incorporeal.

    Indeed, given the rmg, a unit that is generally quite good is better than one with a very specific use and hard counters.

    #194500

    There are no armored flyers that can be built in a city.
    I think that is a good state of affairs.

    #194503

    vota dc
    Member

    I was not aware of discussion about it. I just thought it’s strange all other elves are armored but their T3 isn’t.

    We have dwarves armorfreak with even support armored, humans that rely on armor because they copy dwarves (even in old title they copied dwarves harmless inventions to make them destructive…air galley is an example), orcs and high elves are standard because they have 4/7 racial units with armored (orc lack archers, high elves lack gryphon), Halflings just 2/7….four races with ZERO armored. Imho it is strange that there are few “armor-balanced” race: without Halflings would be or 4+/7 or none.

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