Gryphon Riders

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Gryphon Riders

This topic contains 88 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  hilfazer 8 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 89 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #127916

    Aennor
    Member

    Played as Elven WL last time, found something odd with Gryphon Riders – they haven’t “Armored” trait (despite their model is obviously armored), while Unicorn Riders have it. That way Gryphon Riders can’t receive the bonus from Enchanted Armory, while Unicorns can (it’s just how I found that).

    #128120

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Yes, it doesn’t make much sense at first glance.

    I suspect it was either a simple oversight or – more likely – to ensure that a flying T3 isn’t over-powered.

    #128168

    Aennor
    Member

    Yes, it doesn’t make much sense at first glance.

    I suspect it was either a simple oversight or – more likely – to ensure that a flying T3 isn’t over-powered.

    Well, I suspect this is an oversight, because:
    1) unarmored (without that trait) units either don’t have an armor at all or have a thing that couldn’t be called armor, but Gryphon Rider have an armor that looks like Unicorn Riders one (all of those regardind units models)
    2) since it’s “cavalry” class, it’s affected by any polearm-wielder (and some cavalry, like Orc Black Knight, wield that too), that way they receive more damage (despite they have first strike, most of polearm-wielders have first strike too, causing Gryphons loose theirs when defending, and attacking they still receives more damage from polearms)
    2.1) and if someone using polearms have Pillar of Stylites, it’s even more devastating (though it’s only applies to “pikeman” class)
    3) armored units, despite have more armor, susceptible to armor piercing, and since most polearm-wielders (despite receives that on medals) have armor piercing, it can be suicidal to meet that thing wyth Gryphon Rider
    3.1) musketeers and crosbowmen also have an armor piercing available
    4) all rogue heroes/leaders have an access to “stronger than steel” that giver armor piercing to all his/her/its units, and with leader being rogue (backstabing feast, lol) it can be really painful
    5) halfling Eagle Rider, despite being more fragile (still have “luck”) have Wing Beat and (on elite) backstab (and IIRC backstab can be applied to Wing Beat, causing, with little tactics, three-units-backstabed-in-one-beat) isn’t that grand?
    6) Elves have 20% poison weakness (despite I’m being unable to see the reason in that, I’m accepting it), that’s deadly already, and if combined with polearms and flanking (or even better, backstabing)…well, let’s pray for their sould instead 😀

    I’m not sure I’ve find all counters
    I’m strongly doubt that “armored” Gryphon Riders will be OP (they still be pretty balanced)

    #128170

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Thanks we’ll amend it, nice catch 🙂

    EDIT: or not, will follow the discussion and then decide ^^

    #128234

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I’m pretty sure this has been discussed previously, and in said discussion the participants thought it was intended because:

    1) The rider may be wearing armour, but the gryphon is the larger target that is probably receiving most attacks and it doesn’t have armour.

    2) Dreadnought synergies. In the current balance, dreadnoughts don’t have flying class units and to get a flying unit from another source means forfeiting the bonuses that dreadnoughts get with armoured units. Making gryphon riders armoured would make them hands down the best racial tier 3 for dreadnoughts, making high elves clearly the best race for dreadnoughts (dreadnought bonuses apply best to archers and cavalry, and high elves are strong competitors in both). This would be unfortunate both from a balance perspective and from a thematic perspective (high elves should not be the best dreadnought race!) – and seriously, pistolier gryphon riders are good enough without getting the armoured discount and defence bonus.

    #128249

    I already think that gryphon riders are the best T-3’s for Dreadnoughts, although eagle riders are so incredibly fast and get a ranged bonus.

    with armored, they are going to have exceptionally good defensive and offensive capabilities.

    At this point, human is a good dreadnought choice because you get two armored pistol capable units. If the elves offer the same, then there would be little point to picking human.

    #128251

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I already think that gryphon riders are the best T-3′s for Dreadnoughts, although eagle riders are so incredibly fast and get a ranged bonus.

    with armored, they are going to have exceptionally good defensive and offensive capabilities.

    At this point, human is a good dreadnought choice because you get two armored pistol capable units. If the elves offer the same, then there would be little point to picking human.

    I thought it’s been clarified that Armored trait actually is a liability since it makes you susceptible to armor piercing? It’s my understanding that the bonus from armor is already computed into the defense stat – unless this has been “re-clarified.”

    Edit: So my initial response to OP was incorrect in retrospect – for now.

    #128253

    they actually changed armored to add two defense, as it was confusing the way it was originally. It was difficult to notice because they lowered the “non armored” component of units with armored so that there was no visible change.

    Try adding armored as a trait in the item forge: you’ll notice that it gives +2 defense to your hero with the corresponding vulnerability to armor piercing.

    If armored was added to the gryphon rider, they’d probably lower its defense by 2, so it would end up having the same default. however, dreadnoughts can increase the defense of armored units, so it would be a net positive for them.

    #128255

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Armoured is considered a liability because the bonus from armoured is already factored into the base stats – so if you see one unit with Defense 10 with armoured, that’s a liability compared to having Defense 10 without armoured. Typically, though, units with armoured end up with one more total defense (meaning they have one less before Armoured). This means that Armoured is usually actually a net benefit – compared to a non-Armoured equivalent, it means you have one higher defense against most physical attacks, one less against armour piercing – and armour piercing is uncommon, so unless your opponent is specifically building armour piercing units, on average you’re probably better off. (If gryphon riders lost Armoured but still had the same net defense, then that would be a straight nerf… except where dreadnoughts are involved).

    Where dreadnoughts are involved, though – humans are considered a good match for dreadnoughts mechanically because they have a lot of armoured units (only dwarfs have more complete armour coverage), and specifically because their tier 3 unit is currently the only tier 3 armoured cavalry, and thus the only tier 3 unit that benefits from both Side Arms and the Armoured researches. Giving Gryphon Riders the Armoured trait would make the High Elf dreadnought be able to do everything better than the Human dreadnought except get a production bonus in cities. High Elves have armoured archers (thus benefiting from Modern Warfare) that are superior to human archers in most circumstances. They have armoured cavalry with Forestry and Phase, which grants mobility options including wall-crossing capabilities in sieges, which is normally one of the weaknesses of dreadnoughts (they have to batter down the walls rather than being able to bypass them). And if gryphon riders were giving Armoured that would produce tier 3 units with all the dreadnought synergies as knights while also providing the dreadnought with flyers and, thus, a powerful rapid strike force, covering the dreadnought’s Achilles heel of mobility much better than knights do.

    Now, I haven’t done the numbers on production breakpoints, but if this change was incorporated then mechanically-speaking I don’t think many people would ever go with human dreadnoughts when elven dreadnoughts were an option, and other races may even be relegated to niche tactics (goblins for musketeer spam, dwarfs for armoured priests and fire immune units, possibly halflings for eagle riders that never need to receive retaliations but really, high elves would have more to offer dreads with powerful armoured archers, phasing t2 cavalry, and with this proposal, armoured flying tier 3 cavalry).

    As Chryso says, gryphon riders are already strong in a dreadnought’s hands. Giving them Armoured would make elves a better choice for dreadnoughts than humans and quite possibly THE best race for dreadnoughts overall. And given that lorewise the high elves are probably the most anti-dreadnought race in the game, I think for them to end up as the best dreadnoughts would be a serious mistake. They’re already a good choice with armoured longbows, armoured phasing cavalry, and a flying cavalry that’s worth producing at full price for the strategic and tactical mobility it provides. Let’s not make them the best choice that directly eclipses one of the two main dreadnought races according to the lore.

    #128258

    Aennor
    Member

    I’m pretty sure this has been discussed previously, and in said discussion the participants thought it was intended because:

    1) The rider may be wearing armour, but the gryphon is the larger target that is probably receiving most attacks and it doesn’t have armour.

    2) Dreadnought synergies. In the current balance, dreadnoughts don’t have flying class units and to get a flying unit from another source means forfeiting the bonuses that dreadnoughts get with armoured units. Making gryphon riders armoured would make them hands down the best racial tier 3 for dreadnoughts, making high elves clearly the best race for dreadnoughts (dreadnought bonuses apply best to archers and cavalry, and high elves are strong competitors in both). This would be unfortunate both from a balance perspective and from a thematic perspective (high elves should not be the best dreadnought race!) – and seriously, pistolier gryphon riders are good enough without getting the armoured discount and defence bonus.

    Valid points, still:
    1) While gryphon larger than the rider (and gryphon unarmored) if you kill gryphon first you’ll have to deal with rider (who can be not so powerful himself, still can calculate his actions), but if you kill rider first you’ll have nothing more than (even dangerous) beast (without its handler it’s mere beast, but with its handler it can be killing machine), and even the mightiest beast can be countered.
    2) Well, HE is still weaker than humans (or dwarves) in this field (at least because 20% blight weakness, and blight damage is quite popular), also riders (despite first strike and tireless) is weaker (though slightly) than knights (not only because humans don’t have weakness)

    I already think that gryphon riders are the best T-3′s for Dreadnoughts, although eagle riders are so incredibly fast and get a ranged bonus.

    with armored, they are going to have exceptionally good defensive and offensive capabilities.

    At this point, human is a good dreadnought choice because you get two armored pistol capable units. If the elves offer the same, then there would be little point to picking human.

    Well, regarding Eagle Riders, I mentioned that

    5) halfling Eagle Rider, despite being more fragile (still have “luck”) have Wing Beat and (on elite) backstab (and IIRC backstab can be applied to Wing Beat, causing, with little tactics, three-units-backstabed-in-one-beat) isn’t that grand?<br>

    and while Gryphon Rider have theirs tireless and first strike, it can’t do things like that.
    Armored Gryphon Rider will still be vulnerable to some sorts of damage, as I mentioned before (don’t forget 20% blight weakness, it’s much a bane to the elves if used correctly). Humans still be (a way) better dreads, even if we’ll have grypons armored. HE will not make humans “little point” (a lot factors there), they just can provide a competition (also, IMO, not as powerful as it can be, I find dwarves a lot stronger dreads, even if they haven’t cavalry/flyer).

    P.S. If we’re discussing Gryphon Riders usability in case of Dreadnoughts, why not say anything about other classes as well? They still have something to offer (except sorc and druid) to both offensive and defensive capabilities (and I don’t find Dreadnougths bonuses TOO good for not-machinery)

    #128263

    Gloweye
    Member

    And don’t forget the Crystal Tree bonus.

    Seriously, I don’t really think that the +1 Def + Cost reduction is so incredible strong on that single unit, and enough so that it will change the way people play the Side Arm stratagies. They are inherently weaker than knight, and won’t be winning in a 1v1 duel, given they have equal empire upgrades.

    #128268

    Ericridge
    Member

    High elves is perfect race.

    Accept it.

    #128273

    2) Well, HE is still weaker than humans (or dwarves) in this field (at least because 20% blight weakness, and blight damage is quite popular), also riders (despite first strike and tireless) is weaker (though slightly) than knights (not only because humans don’t have weakness)

    Elves have a higher resistance than most, so the 20% is more like a 10 or 11% weakness. Moreover, people will generally not deploy lots of poison against dreadnoughts, as they have both machines and force field.

    I also fail to see why humans would be a better dreadnought choice if you could get armored gryphons: you’d get better ranged damage, higher mobility, and wall circumventing capabilities.

    Eagle riders are neat, but too fragile for more than scouting or picking off weak targets. You really need to be a warlord to get martial arts and thoroughbred mounts for them to be reliable heavy combat units.

    Knights are superior in close because of the shield, but the dreadnought already has the golem as a magnificent close combat unit. Until now, the boosted knights offered a tactical flexibility that the golem lacked (the ranged damage) and synergy that Gryphon riders did not have.

    Drax has already mentioned the high elven archers, who get the armored benefit and the archer upgrade, making them excellent supports for high elf musketeers.

    As for Dwarves, I haven’t found them to be my favorite dreadnought choice (I prefer human and High Elf), because they don’t get a t-3 cavalry, as you mention, and because they don’t offer fast units to compensate for slow machines.

    They still have something to offer (except sorc and druid)

    I always use gryphon riders with those classes to either protect vulnerable hunters (since shaman aren’t tough enough), or to add muscle without slowing down floating summons (for the sorcerer). You always can find a use for a flying T-3 that can negate charge.

    #128284

    Draxynnic
    Member

    1) While gryphon larger than the rider (and gryphon unarmored) if you kill gryphon first you’ll have to deal with rider (who can be not so powerful himself, still can calculate his actions), but if you kill rider first you’ll have nothing more than (even dangerous) beast (without its handler it’s mere beast, but with its handler it can be killing machine), and even the mightiest beast can be countered.

    Gryphons without riders already exist in the game, as a tier 2 unit which has the Dedicated to Good quality – which implies that gryphons are smart enough to have an alignment preference, which also implies that they’re smart enough to continue fighting effectively if they lose their rider. Meanwhile, it takes eight elven swordsmen with shields to make a tier 1 unit. Now, the rider may be more skilled than the typical elven swordsman, but he needs to be eight times as effective in order to even become a tier 1 unit, while the gryphon is a tier 2 unit on its own.

    We could, in fact, estimate what the rider adds by comparing the units:

    Gryphon: 48 health, 36mp, 12def, 10r
    Melee 12 phys
    First Strike
    Dedicated to Good
    Animal
    Forestry
    Flying
    Gains Tireless at gold

    Gryphon Rider: 65 health, 30mp, 12def, 12r
    Melee 15 phys
    First Strike
    Cavalry
    Charge
    High Elf
    Forestry
    Mounted
    Flying
    Blight Weakness
    Gains Inflict Bleeding Wounds at bronze, Tireless at gold

    So, the rider is actually adding a lot of health – this might represent having to kill the rider as well, or that the rider is able to parry blows and help defend the gryphon. The rider adds a little bit of resistance, except against blight where it’s counterbalanced by the weakness. Other than that, the rider only adds 3 damage (unless charging) and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at veteran.

    Yeah, between the two, I’d say that the gryphon is most definitely the target. It’s the more dangerous of the two, and it’s also going to be a lot easier for most units to strike the gryphon than it is to strike past the gryphon at the rider on top, who from an infantryman’s perspective is shielded by the soft, squishy, unarmoured gryphon. If you were a common soldier, would you really try getting well within the gryphon’s reach to maybe be able to land a sword blow on one of the rider’s armoured greaves, when it would be easier and safer (relatively speaking) to just thrust your sword into the gryphon’s breast and you know that killing the rider will not actually stop the gryphon from tearing you apart? If you were an archer, would you really aim for the rider when the gryphon is a larger and less protected target?

    Personally, I’d say you’d have to be insane to target the rider rather than the gryphon. Unless the rider is a particularly mighty warrior (read: hero) then the disarmed rider is going to be pretty much helpless against a unit. A riderless gryphon is still a tier 2 unit. And I think the fact that gryphons and gryphon riders have exactly the same defense against physical attacks reflects this.

    Sure, the gryphon rider gets blight vulnerability that the regular gryphon doesn’t – but the rider is also adding nearly 50% more health and 2 resistance. I think that more than compensates for the vulnerability.

    Seriously, I don’t really think that the +1 Def + Cost reduction is so incredible strong on that single unit, and enough so that it will change the way people play the Side Arm stratagies. They are inherently weaker than knight, and won’t be winning in a 1v1 duel, given they have equal empire upgrades.

    They won’t be winning 1v1 duels, sure, but that’s not the point. If gryphon riders could beat knights 1v1, then there would be no point to knights at all unless you were playing dreadnought, making use of the slayer abilities, or just didn’t have access to gryphon riders (and this is assuming gryphon riders are NOT armoured).

    However, gryphon riders massively augment a dreadnought’s strategic capabilities. Pistolier knights are nice, but they don’t really add that much to a dreadnought’s overall capabilities. Knights are a strong melee unit that is most effective on open terrain – dreadnoughts really don’t need to have knights to be strong on open terrain. Knights are one of the better options for a cavalry dreadnought strategy, but they still face stiff competition from other forms of cavalry, golems, and dreadnought ranged units such as musketeers that are also deadly on an open field.

    Gryphon riders (and even unicorn riders), however, serve as a patch that goes right on top of the dreadnought’s strategic vulnerabilities. Dreadnoughts have problems with strategic mobility – flocks of flying gryphons can pretty much go wherever they like. Dreadnoughts lack an ability to cross walls as a class, needing to go through the process of bashing them down to get in – gryphons (and, before them, unicorns) give them something that can bypass them. Similarly, dreadnoughts lack the tactical mobility to easily get into flanks and such… again, gryphons and unicorns will let you accomplish this with ease. And while gryphons are weaker than knights, they’re not so much weaker that they can’t do anything a knight can’t in a pinch – especially since their greater tactical and strategic mobility means they’re more likely to be where you need them, when you need them.

    Humans still be (a way) better dreads, even if we’ll have grypons armored.

    How?

    As a dread, given the choice, I would definitely choose initiates over civic guards to gain access to a damage type I wouldn’t normally have. In the infantry and pikemen slots… well, halberdiers are better than Union Guards, but I wouldn’t say so much better as to offset what comes later. Archers versus longbowmen are an obvious choice. Iron Heart from human priests is probably more useful than Inflict Stun on Storm Sisters, particularly since human engineers have Throw Net. Oh, and coming back to that strategic mobility thing, elves get Forestry, while for dreadnoughts that have access to ironclads Mariner is simply adding yo what’s already a strength for them.

    On the cavalry level, though, then with armoured gryphons high elves win hands down. Cavalry evolving to knights is nice, but so are elite and champion unicorn riders. Knights versus gryphons… well, we’ve discussed. If you’re going with a cavalry strategy, then the ability of elven cavalry to basically take the dreadnought’s Achilles Heel and make it no longer exist means they win hands down, enough so that plenty of people consider gryphon riders to be quite worthwhile for dreadnoughts even without the benefits of Great Blacksmith and Solid Engineering. (Not to mention, although this is relatively minor, that elves get +1 to damage with pistols.) That knights do get those benefits is what keeps them competitive – you can take elves that cover the weaknesses of dreadnoughts while still synergising quite well with the class for a race that disfavours that class according to the lore, or you can take knights and accept that you keep that Achilles heel in exchange for the knights better synergising with your class.

    With this change, then if you’re planning to go cavalry with a dreadnought, then high elves would just have so much more to offer than humans. If you’re not going to make cavalry a big part of your strategy, then pretty much everything else humans have to offer the dreadnought is beaten by dwarfs – they also have a healing priest (with Armoured, what’s more), units immune to fire to synergise with the dreadnought’s ability to dish out indiscriminate fire damage, and powerful units that, while slower, are still fast enough to keep up with the machines. (Assuming, of course, you don’t simply go the goblin musketeer spam route.)

    Basically, at the moment, humans sit somewhere on a continuum from dwarfs (which probably have the best synergies with dreads) to elves and halflings (which don’t have as many innate synergies, but plug a gap in the dreadnought’s native capabilities) – humans don’t work as well as supports for war machines, but give the opportunity to make a fast (but not flying) cavalry force. Making gryphon riders armoured would give elves a similar degree of synergy to humans, leaving humans in a ‘jack of all trades’ position where they have most of the weaknesses of elf and dwarf dreadnoughts, but lack the key strengths. The only thing I can think of is leveraging that human production bonus to make a breakpoint for building a machine, but that’s a very fine balance that requires quite specific circumstances to make a difference – not something I would choose a race over.

    For the record, this is not theorycrafting: dreadnought gryphon rider flocks is something I’ve done. Final scenario of the Commonwealth campaign as a loyalist – I took one look at the terrain and focused on gryphon production as soon as I took and built up a few elven cities (which wasn’t long). They may have lacked Great Blacksmithing and Solid Engineering, leaving them at full price without the benefit of empire upgrades beyond Side Arms, but the ability to move them quickly from production sites to the front lines, quickly react to enemy actions regardless of terrain, and storm enemy walls without having to bash them down first was more than worth it. Admittedly, this was a map that probably pushed the player more in this direction than most would, but even so, the ability to completely offset the dreadnought’s primary weaknesses is a compelling one even when you’re paying full price for the gryphons. With +1 defense and -10% price due to empire upgrades… I really don’t see why you’d bother with knights.

    If you can come up with an analysis that demonstrates your claim that humans would “still be (a way) better dreads, even if we’ll have grypons armored” I’d love to hear it. Because I can’t see anywhere where they’ll come out ahead except in fairly niche situations, and even then they’re relatively minor advantages.

    #128291

    I thought I remembered this conversation…

    #128364

    Aennor
    Member

    snip

    Woah, it’s Great Wall of text 😀 (though I’ve read it all)
    Still, I find it odd, that we’re discussing that ONE class will become OP

    Well, there are two different gryphons as I see it. That t2 gryphons is…well, wild; that used by rider is “domesticated” since they losed their “dedication” to goodness and don’t care what they with their rider do. (that’s obviously the same kind of situation with unicorns as well, but that’s not on the topic)
    Well, gryphon can continue the fight, but also can just fly away (if they’re so sentient) if they lose their rider (surely, if they were bred, they can’t abandon their so easily, but who knows what’s going on into the head of that particular gryphon :D)…well that whole situation of theorycrafting tires me, so let’s go further on the list.

    Sure, the gryphon rider gets blight vulnerability that the regular gryphon doesn’t – but the rider is also adding nearly 50% more health and 2 resistance. I think that more than compensates for the vulnerability.

    Well, it’s not easily compensate (armor also don’t give you safety against this), this is just gives “plain” survivability. If you know, where, when, and more importantly what with, your opponent plans to attack you, you have time to find counters (it’s just general rule, I know). Back to our situation, goblins (no comment)/rogues (no comment)/archdruids (many summons have blighted dmg)/sorcs (watcher melee/eldritch horror melee) have more counters for the elves at all, that anyone else. No matter which class you’ll use (as elves), mentioned opponents have tactical advance – elven troops have a weakness that can be…no, MUST be exploit. Have you ever seen goblin archdruid with spiders and goblin Big Beetles? It’s terryfying (if properly used) to the elves.

    As for comparisson with the knight, the knight wins. Knight is well round cavalry unit…blah-blah-blah. There are situations where the knight performs better (despite tireless and first strike gryphons have). While I agree gryphon have more mobility, it’s need more careful maneuvering that knight. Personally, I don’t find Gryphon Rider with pistols something scary (despite +1 ranged), and still doubt that armored rider will obsolette knight and become an abomination. I find that Eagle Rider is more scary (had an issue with 4 hits in a row were missed by luck, 3 hits from Longbow and one spell), I’ve also metioned why. Partially agree on dreadnought siege capabilities, but neither Gryphon nor Eagle can’t improve situation at whole (maybe I just can’t understand what tactic you use).

    P.S. there always will be those who disagree, in one way or another.
    P.P.S. I hate to write large posts 😀

    #128392

    Back to our situation, goblins (no comment)/rogues (no comment)/archdruids (many summons have blighted dmg)/sorcs (watcher melee/eldritch horror melee) have more counters for the elves at all, that anyone else. No matter which class you’ll use (as elves), mentioned opponents have tactical advance – elven troops have a weakness that can be…no, MUST be exploit. Have you ever seen goblin archdruid with spiders and goblin Big Beetles? It’s terryfying (if properly used) to the elves.

    Unless the dreadnought has some golem’s mixed in, or following in a support role, of course. I’ve actually found goblins to be not that effective at anti elf warfare, since their hp malus makes it easy for elves to arrow them to death. I prefer orcs, since the hp buff and throw curse at long range make them really great at setting up devastating hornet swarms or whatever.

    As for comparisson with the knight, the knight wins. Knight is well round cavalry unit…blah-blah-blah. There are situations where the knight performs better (despite tireless and first strike gryphons have).

    not when you weigh the unit capacity correctly. The rough formula is stats, < strategic mobility, < surprise. The tactical skill of a unit in combat is an important, although not the most important, factor.

    Here the knight wins, because shield just gives it enough defense so that it can beat the gryphon rider even when they negate charge (unless the Gryphon rider has tireless). However, this is the least important factor, as will become clear shortly.

    Tamurlane reportedly said “It is better to be present with ten men than absent with ten thousand”, which is a pithy summary of the importance of mobility. A faster army can pick its battles, avoid superior forces, or kill them piecemeal. As Jom said, having a fast unit is like having two of a slower unit for lower upkeep costs.

    The Gryphon wins here, because it is faster over everything other than a straight trip over a road. This is especially important for a Dreadnought, because their units often lack this mobility.

    Finally, there is surprise. To quote sun tzu “He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.” This is critical, as an unprepared enemy may very well have a counter, but this counter will be in the wrong place, and the shock of being struck unexpectedly (for human players at least) is very powerful.

    here the gryphon rider is very superior, as the ability to travel over mountains, oceans, and the larger sight range of flying troops make them excellent for ambushes.

    As a side note, the fact that classical military maxims agree with experience derived game concepts is a sign of excellent design.

    It is also interesting to think about the Eagle rider, who is now slightly faster than the gryphon rider, and probably a little better than it at ambush. It is, however, markedly inferior in tactical combat, so I think they are about equal at the top.

    For the Dreadnought, this would be an opportunity to get the best (or tied for best in golden realms) t-3 for less cost and with more defense.

    I also think you are somewhat missing the point: the claim isn’t that it is op relative to the other classes, but that it would upset the “racial meta” for dreadnought in a way that doesn’t fit the lore.

    #128400

    Aennor
    Member

    Unless the dreadnought has some golem’s mixed in, or following in a support role, of course. I’ve actually found goblins to be not that effective at anti elf warfare, since their hp malus makes it easy for elves to arrow them to death. I prefer orcs, since the hp buff and throw curse at long range make them really great at setting up devastating hornet swarms or whatever.

    Well, I just don’t want to bring whole other paragraph, but orcs should be viable

    snip

    Well, both mobility and tactical capacity are important, so I was incorrect to answer so short, my apologies. In terms of mobility and “sudden strike” Gryphons better, I agree; but I think it’s incorrect to obsolette the Knight, just because, Rider can be armored and more maneuerable or whatever. Overall one can be better or worse than other, but “the devil is in the detail”

    As a side note, the fact that classical military maxims agree with experience derived game concepts is a sign of excellent design.

    Can’t agree more, thanks for quoting btw

    It is also interesting to think about the Eagle rider, who is now slightly faster than the gryphon rider, and probably a little better than it at ambush. It is, however, markedly inferior in tactical combat, so I think they are about equal at the top.

    I wouldn’t call EagleR inferior, its just more situational and random, but “they are about equal”, in the terms of usefulness.

    For the Dreadnought, this would be an opportunity to get the best (or tied for best in golden realms) t-3 for less cost and with more defense.

    I also think you are somewhat missing the point: the claim isn’t that it is op relative to the other classes, but that it would upset the “racial meta” for dreadnought in a way that doesn’t fit the lore.

    Well, *little offtop* who’s the worst then? *little offtop ended*.

    Well, I haven’t dismissed that claim yet (:D). Partially because I don’t see Gryphon Rider something special for dread (in oppose to WL, who can have truly mobile force to be reckoned with, with that oustanding HA, good GR and Mmanticore) that would violate the “racil meta”, partially because there is still a lot of counters (I’ve forgot about Wild Magic, for example) that disallow gryphons strongly upset others.

    #128408

    Epaminondas
    Member

    And don’t forget the Crystal Tree bonus.

    Seriously, I don’t really think that the +1 Def + Cost reduction is so incredible strong on that single unit, and enough so that it will change the way people play the Side Arm stratagies. They are inherently weaker than knight, and won’t be winning in a 1v1 duel, given they have equal empire upgrades.

    I agree. Besides, it’s not like certain races are not already grossly preferable for certain classes: The only reason I don’t play Draconian Theocrats – and especially Draconian Evangelists – is because of RP/aesthetic reasons.

    #128453

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Still, I find it odd, that we’re discussing that ONE class will become OP

    Because for most classes, it would be a trivial change (one I still think would be a bad one, but regardless, armoured and +1 net defense is not a major difference). However, when considering whether something is a good move or not, we should look at where it has the most significant effect and the potential to break the game, not in the areas where it doesn’t make a huge amount of difference.

    There’s also the element that it’s taking a race that is thematically anti-dreadnought and making them probably the best dreadnought. If we were talking about flying armoured cavalry on a pro-dreadnought race, I’d probably be less resistant, albeit still wary (because it is providing a strategic capability that, for dreadnoughts, is worth foregoing Great Blacksmith and Solid Engineering for because they don’t get that capability elsewhere).

    Well, there are two different gryphons as I see it. That t2 gryphons is…well, wild; that used by rider is “domesticated” since they losed their “dedication” to goodness and don’t care what they with their rider do. (that’s obviously the same kind of situation with unicorns as well, but that’s not on the topic)
    Well, gryphon can continue the fight, but also can just fly away (if they’re so sentient) if they lose their rider (surely, if they were bred, they can’t abandon their so easily, but who knows what’s going on into the head of that particular gryphon 😀 )…well that whole situation of theorycrafting tires me, so let’s go further on the list.

    In mythology, gryphons are fierce fighters that don’t give up once they’ve engaged. In most settings with gryphon riders, the gryphons are noted for their fierce loyalty for their rider. Even if you assume that Our Gryphons Are Different here, I think the odds that the gryphon is just going to keep fighting are high enough for it to remain the priority target, since the rider on his own is a trivial threat compared to the gryphon.

    You’re also missing the point that going for the rider at all is a daunting proposition. Getting a solid blow on a mounted soldier from the ground is a daunting enough proposition for an infantryman unless they’re using a polearm that gives them the reach to do so – and the rider of a gryphon is higher up than a horseman even if the gryphon is on the ground. Additionally, getting close enough to attack a rider with a non-polearm means getting well inside the reach of the mount. For a well-trained warhorse, this is dangerous. When you’re facing a predator known for its quick reflexes, this is downright suicidal, particularly if you’re then also looking to strike at weak points in armour. Better to keep at blade’s length from that beak and claws and strike at the gryphon, where you don’t need to expose yourself as much to strike. Kill the mount, and odds are pretty good you’ll be able to kill the rider before he picks himself up off the ground.

    Well, it’s not easily compensate (armor also don’t give you safety against this), this is just gives “plain” survivability. If you know, where, when, and more importantly what with, your opponent plans to attack you, you have time to find counters (it’s just general rule, I know). Back to our situation, goblins (no comment)/rogues (no comment)/archdruids (many summons have blighted dmg)/sorcs (watcher melee/eldritch horror melee) have more counters for the elves at all, that anyone else. No matter which class you’ll use (as elves), mentioned opponents have tactical advance – elven troops have a weakness that can be…no, MUST be exploit. Have you ever seen goblin archdruid with spiders and goblin Big Beetles? It’s terryfying (if properly used) to the elves.

    You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Seriously, while the shakeup of the last patch hasn’t really settled down, pre-patch elves were one of the three power races (along with dwarves and draconians) despite this supposed crippling vulnerability. Why? Forestry, unicorns, and gryphons. Don’t underestimate mobility. And as Chryso says, the blight vulnerability is countered by increased resistance that applies to all non-physical channels including blight, so compared to other races the effect is substantially less – they may even take less damage from blight attacks than orcs even with the vulnerability.

    Additionally, you’re pointing to one of the most blight-oriented matchups possible. If class and race was to be chosen randomly, the odds of facing that matchup is fairly low. In MP, leader configurations that lean so heavily towards blight are generally avoided because blight is generally the most resisted of the nonphysical channels – relying so much on blight risks getting countered hard by an opponent using blight-immune units, particularly machines. Unless your opponent knows for sure you’re going to be playing elves they’re not likely to take that configuration in a serious game – and if you have given them that information and the luxury to plan their own configuration to counter it, then you have to accept that you’ve given yourself a significant handicap. Meanwhile, the more popular strategies are unlikely to have significant blight damage at all – only two classes make heavy use of blight damage, and goblins in general are not favoured in MP because their low-health troops die easily in autoresolve.

    Furthermore, even if we did think this was a serious problem, then taking the top unit and giving them a bonus to defense against physical is not going to address it.

    As for comparisson with the knight, the knight wins. Knight is well round cavalry unit…blah-blah-blah. There are situations where the knight performs better (despite tireless and first strike gryphons have). While I agree gryphon have more mobility, it’s need more careful maneuvering that knight.

    Sure, if you bang a gryphon and a knight together, the knight will win. Like I said before, if that wasn’t the case, knights would already be completely useless as long as gryphons were available. However, while gryphons do require more careful positioning than knights, their ability to bypass obstacles and avoid attacks of opportunity means that it’s also easier to get the position you want. Knights often have no viable option than to charge through the enemy’s screening units – gryphons can fly over them to either flank or pounce on the enemy’s support line. This is enough of an advantage in an open field – in battlefields with significant obstacles (anything with walls, forest hexes, certain lairs) it becomes massive. Ultimately, you can use a gryphon rider as a poor-man’s knight and charge them straight into battle – they won’t perform as well as knights in this role, but they’ll do okay. However, you can’t use a knight to fly over an obstacle and deal with an annoying enemy ranged unit.

    And that’s just considering the tactical battlefield. As Chryso said, the amount of troops you can get to a decisive battle is more important than your on-paper power. In the game I described in my previous post, my flying gryphons arriving from my back areas were probably arriving twice as quickly as knights would, which meant that at any time I had one more wave of reinforcements on my front lines than I would have with knights.

    With gryphons, I could defend against enemy attacks by parking large forces of gryphons in strategic locations, and any attack that appeared I could pounce on with two or three stacks of gryphons in addition to whatever less mobile local forces I happened to have available and annihilate the attacking force. With knights, I would not have had the mobility to do this, and would have had to garrison each city across a large frontier individually – leaving me with only one or two stacks in any given area to fend off enemy attacks, which given the size of some of the armies coming at me in that game, would not have been sufficient.

    Offensively, using gryphons meant that I could penetrate deep into enemy territory without warning to capture a lightly-defended city before it could be reinforced – if I’d had to slog through forests and mountains with knights and war machines, I would have found large armies waiting for me. With gryphons, I could make the enemy’s walls basically irrelevant – with knights, I would have had to break through gates, each of which represented a chokepoint even when broken, while meanwhile taking fire from ranged units on the walls – ranged units that, with a flying assault, were quickly neutralised. Furthermore, with gryphons, if a significant enemy attack appeared nearby while the gryphons were en route, they usually weren’t so far out of place that they couldn’t react – knights would likely have been caught out of position, without the mobility to get to either location in time to make a difference.

    At the bottom line, dreadnoughts have plenty of options for units that do roughly the same things knights do. They can build tier 2 cavalry – sure, they’re weaker than knights individually, but there can be twice as many of them (which actually makes Side Arms twice as effective, since the effectiveness of pistols is the same on all cavalry) and you have the option of, say, phasing unicorns with forestry if you go elves. If the extra 4mp isn’t crucial and you can keep them in good repair, golems are also a good option. Gryphons (and now eagles), on the other hand, grant flying capability, something that dreadnoughts do not naturally have. That’s worth missing out on Great Blacksmith and Solid Engineering for. If it’s made that they don’t have to miss out on those… well, it starts entering ‘too good to pass up’ territory.

    Partially agree on dreadnought siege capabilities, but neither Gryphon nor Eagle can’t improve situation at whole (maybe I just can’t understand what tactic you use).

    It’s really quite simple. If the city is mostly relying on ranged units for defenses, simply fly over the walls and engage them. If the city has enough melee defenders to make that too dangerous, then you might combine it with a conventional assault, holding the flyers back until the right time. But usually, you’re still better off just sending the flyers straight over the walls and taking out the softest units you can reach. Against stronger defenses you’ll probably take casualties among the flyers, but in such circumstances you’re probably likely to take even more casualties if you don’t have them.

    Well, *little offtop* who’s the worst then? *little offtop ended*.

    It’s less topic than you think, which is an irony I was going to comment on myself until you gave me the perfect setup:

    Opinions vary, and there hasn’t been enough time since patch 1.4 for people to judge based on the new environment, but previously most players would probably say… *drumroll*

    Beetle Riders.

    Given the setup, you were probably expecting me to triumphantly say ‘knights’, but that would be dishonest. However, despite your claims of them being better than gryphons on the basis of a spurious one-on-one face-to-face matchup, Knights are (or were) the second worst. There are good reasons why these two units were buffed in the update, and why making cavalry evolve to knights was considered a balanced option.

    Depending on how valuable you considered flying to be, the prepatch consensus order was roughly beetles, knights, shock troopers, flyers, gryphons, then firstborn, with firstborn dropping behind the flyers and gryphons with people who valued flying. The reason why flyers are behind gryphons is partially because gryphons are inherently slightly better, and because there are more upgrades that affect cavalry than infantry.

    So. I’m still waiting on your explanation as to how humans can make much better dreadnoughts than high elves even with high elves having armoured gryphon riders… when from my perspective, high elves already represent fierce competition for humans as a dreadnought race even with unarmoured gryphons due to the new tactical and strategic options that unicorns and gryphons open up.

    #128459

    Well, *little offtop* who’s the worst then? *little offtop ended*.

    I’ll take a stab at the new world order for T-3’s, if you don’t mind. Drax has already given a good summary of the status quo, so I’ll leave that alone.

    I think it is more or less the same at the top, except that the fliers all have much more specialized roles (Flyers are now dedicated anti archers, gryphons more for priests or general stuff, and eagle riders are super scouts), and are overall pretty equal. Except for the warlord and rouge, of course.

    The First Born is still probably the best of the not fliers, but everything else is fairly equal. Beetle riders have gotten much better, with the chance to get the goblin healing in sometimes, and the ranged weaken/degenerate/both making it a potentially very high damage unit.

    Knights are better at clearing, not devout, and can evolve from human cavalry, and Orcs got the amazing “victory rush” ability.

    #128481

    Aennor
    Member

    Because for most classes, it would be a trivial change (one I still think would be a bad one, but regardless, armoured and +1 net defense is not a major difference)

    Let me guess, is it warlord (who can exploit armor at full)? If so, it’ll be bad, but not so bad (I would not suggest a completely balance breaker)

    In mythology, gryphons are fierce fighters that don’t give up once they’ve engaged. In most settings with gryphon riders, the gryphons are noted for their fierce loyalty for their rider. Even if you assume that Our Gryphons Are Different here, I think the odds that the gryphon is just going to keep fighting are high enough for it to remain the priority target, since the rider on his own is a trivial threat compared to the gryphon.

    Well, there is problem. While I agree that gryphon is fierce beast, still, without a rider, it’s just uncontrolable fierce beast. Rider on his own maybe a “trivial threat”, still, he’s one responsible for that much damage gryphon can bring. Despite gryphon on its own is bad news indeed, still would gryphon on its own fly up to make a way to the archers/casters/what-else-ranged-threat-can-be being circled by infantry/whatever? I doubt it. But with the rider, they can do it if they feel the threat is sufficient.

    Sure, if you bang a gryphon and a knight together, the knight will win. Like I said before, if that wasn’t the case, knights would already be completely useless as long as gryphons were available. However, while gryphons do require more careful positioning than knights, their ability to bypass obstacles and avoid attacks of opportunity means that it’s also easier to get the position you want. Knights often have no viable option than to charge through the enemy’s screening units – gryphons can fly over them to either flank or pounce on the enemy’s support line. This is enough of an advantage in an open field – in battlefields with significant obstacles (anything with walls, forest hexes, certain lairs) it becomes massive. Ultimately, you can use a gryphon rider as a poor-man’s knight and charge them straight into battle – they won’t perform as well as knights in this role, but they’ll do okay. However, you can’t use a knight to fly over an obstacle and deal with an annoying enemy ranged unit.

    Well, I didn’t suggest punching them face-to-face, did I? Still, I would argue with the “knights would already be completely useless as long as gryphons were available”. Yes, gryphons can fly, that can help in many situations. Still, despite being unable to pass obstacles, knight still can’t be easily outplayed (they’re well round unit). The only disadvantage of a knight in that case, that it’s not easy to use in siege (however, I’m pretty sure that for the siege we can bring something else)

    You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

    If I really wanted to do that, I would. But I’m not even started (:D)
    With randomness and in MP, it surely can’t be reliable. I’m not playing MP, so I can’t say much on that, sorry. Still you can find counters not relying on blight (polearms still useful, Draconian Charger is awesome). And, for blight, if not goblins, rogues/druids and even sorcs still can push elves back. And nagas (if you’ll see their dwelling, can be a pain, Glutton is natural elven kill…erm…eater :D)

    Furthermore, even if we did think this was a serious problem, then taking the top unit and giving them a bonus to defense against physical is not going to address it.

    I’m not trying to counter blight (or other elemental damage in other cases) with physical defence 😀
    Also, the blight weakness is that makes Gryphon Riders not jack-of-all-kicks (read, OP can’t be countered), but just pretty good unit to play around with.

    It’s really quite simple. If the city is mostly relying on ranged units for defenses, simply fly over the walls and engage them. If the city has enough melee defenders to make that too dangerous, then you might combine it with a conventional assault, holding the flyers back until the right time. But usually, you’re still better off just sending the flyers straight over the walls and taking out the softest units you can reach. Against stronger defenses you’ll probably take casualties among the flyers, but in such circumstances you’re probably likely to take even more casualties if you don’t have them.

    Ah, it’s more clear now, thanks. Well, it depends on “if the city is mostly relying on ranged units for defenses” or not. If they’re relying on ranges, then yes, any flyer can make day yours (if used properly, ofc). Still (as elves especially), it’s the pain to (because of blight again, also their “filth pit” is really monstrous) siege goblin city without blight immuned units (and still, IIRC, “filth pit” can apply noxious vulnerability and weakened).

    Beetle Riders.

    Given the setup, you were probably expecting me to triumphantly say ‘knights’, but that would be dishonest. However, despite your claims of them being better than gryphons on the basis of a spurious one-on-one face-to-face matchup, Knights are (or were) the second worst. There are good reasons why these two units were buffed in the update, and why making cavalry evolve to knights was considered a balanced option.

    Oh, looks like I can’t remember what Beetles and Knight were like before 1.4

    Depending on how valuable you considered flying to be, the prepatch consensus order was roughly beetles, knights, shock troopers, flyers, gryphons, then firstborn, with firstborn dropping behind the flyers and gryphons with people who valued flying.

    I can’t see the reason of Firstborn being behind the Flyers, but I see why Flyers is also behind the Gryphons.

    The reason why flyers are behind gryphons is partially because gryphons are inherently slightly better, and because there are more upgrades that affect cavalry than infantry.

    Couldn’t say better myself.

    So. I’m still waiting on your explanation as to how humans can make much better dreadnoughts than high elves even with high elves having armoured gryphon riders… when from my perspective, high elves already represent fierce competition for humans as a dreadnought race even with unarmoured gryphons due to the new tactical and strategic options that unicorns and gryphons open up.

    Well, I was incorrect with some words, my apologies. I meant that they be better, not that much better. Still, they’re better (pun intended), I’ll try to be as short as possible:
    1)even if human racial bonus to production is small, it allows them to build up their empire on supersonic speed (with expander it’s light speed), because of humans synergy with dreadnougth class
    2)because of 1), humans can outrun elves in terms of research
    3)due to 1) and 2) they can go on offensive (ot at least harrasing) earlier
    4)human knight allows them cleaning more difficult sites earlier and easier (and more goodies from that)
    5)human dread (partially because of racial units) fares good against any class (except sorc, especially elven sorc)
    optional:
    7)human dread can easily rule the waves (if there are water tiles)
    8)is optional due to 7), but the human dread can mantain cities happyness much more easily from early to midgame (in lategame, all have 800 in all cities)

    Maybe I forgot smth I dunno, if I’ll have time today, I’ll check

    I’ll take a stab at the new world order for T-3′s, if you don’t mind. Drax has already given a good summary of the status quo, so I’ll leave that alone.

    I think it is more or less the same at the top, except that the fliers all have much more specialized roles (Flyers are now dedicated anti archers, gryphons more for priests or general stuff, and eagle riders are super scouts), and are overall pretty equal. Except for the warlord and rouge, of course.

    The First Born is still probably the best of the not fliers, but everything else is fairly equal. Beetle riders have gotten much better, with the chance to get the goblin healing in sometimes, and the ranged weaken/degenerate/both making it a potentially very high damage unit.

    Knights are better at clearing, not devout, and can evolve from human cavalry, and Orcs got the amazing “victory rush” ability.

    Ah, thanks. I forgot what they were like before 1.4 (haven’t played since 1.2 to 1.4)

    #128493

    Mithlond
    Member

    Flying is such an advantage already, i don’t see the reason why Gryphon riders or High elves need a buff. I don’t find it logical either considering the gryphon isn’t armored and is a large target, the ”armor” part(rider) is compared with Unicorn riders less armored since the unicorn is smaller relative to the rider and there are 3 x armored high elven individuals, all in all more armor on that unit.

    From a balance point of view, Inevitable it will lead us to the Knight. Armored and beefier stats is what keeps it viable, not only with one class synergy(dreadnought)
    as discussed but with any class, this due to synergise with the Crystal tree.

    From another class perspective, the warlord, gryphons have the best from both worlds. Mobility and sturdiness through thoroughbred & martial arts easily becoming a very durable unit with superior strategical & siege utility, imho this already is endangering the knights but with the crystal tree once again knights do get an interesting potential benefit that separates it from gryphon riders(uber defence). Armored gryphons would imho obsolete the warlord knight more than it already does.

    #128506

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Let me guess, is it warlord (who can exploit armor at full)?

    Pretty sure you’re being facetious here, since (and I just checked the Tome of Wonders, so unless that’s incorrect…) there are no warlord abilities that key off being Armoured.

    Well, there is problem. While I agree that gryphon is fierce beast, still, without a rider, it’s just uncontrolable fierce beast. Rider on his own maybe a “trivial threat”, still, he’s one responsible for that much damage gryphon can bring. Despite gryphon on its own is bad news indeed, still would gryphon on its own fly up to make a way to the archers/casters/what-else-ranged-threat-can-be being circled by infantry/whatever? I doubt it. But with the rider, they can do it if they feel the threat is sufficient.

    We’ve already established that gryphons are intelligent enough to care about alignment. So they may not be quite as intelligent as the humanoid races, but we’re not talking about animal intelligence here.

    So when you have an intelligent creature being ridden by a rider, you’ve basically got one of two scenarios. Either the intelligent creature and rider are working in partnership, in which case killing the rider means the gryphon is just like having a wild gryphon on your hands except that now it’s angry that you just killed its friend, or it’s been enslaved in some fashion… in which case, it’s probably going to be just as unreliable once the rider is dead as any wild animal (including it turning out that the control was not held by the rider in the first place, in which case you really are right back to square 1). Given that these are elves we’re talking about… I’m not going to bet on the gryphon magically no longer being a threat just because the rider is gone. Good elves would be the first case. Evil elves usually have their war beasts magically ensorcelled.

    Kill the gryphon, though, and you’ve got one elven swordsmen, without a shield, and if they’re particularly unlucky they may be trapped beneath the mount. Much easier to kill the gryphon first and finish off the rider than to go to the risk of going for the rider while the gryphon is still alive (see below) and then possibly have the gryphon continue munching on you regardless.

    Regarding the claim that the gryphon on its own may not be able to think tactically: Possibly, possibly not. Considering that we’re talking about something that is intelligent enough to have a moral stance, it probably wouldn’t be too hard to teach it some basic target recognition and enough of the language to understand orders, and it’s own not-completely-stupidness will do the rest. Heck, it’s possible that the gryphon is actually intelligent enough that it doesn’t need direction from the rider at all, and instead all the rider really means as far as the gryphon is concerned is that it has an extra talon.

    And this is assuming that aiming for the rider is at all practical. Which… I’ll get to.

    Well, I didn’t suggest punching them face-to-face, did I?

    Neither am I. I’m thinking about whether it’s practical to get at the rider with anything short of a polearm at all.

    Have a look at the picture of a gryphon rider in the ToW (or, better yet, examine a gryphon rider from the build order or look at an already produced gryphon rider). The rider is seated somewhere on the order of 6-8 feet off the ground. In order to strike a blow at something that high up with a non-polearm weapon, you pretty much have to be standing right next to the gryphon’s midsection. To get there, you have to get past about 5-6 feet worth of danger zone from the gryphon’s beak and claws.

    Don’t you think it would be much easier to take that sword and swing at the gryphon’s head, neck, or breast? You’re still at risk from the beak and claws that way, but at least you can keep it at blade’s length rather than standing next to it as you try to thrust upwards into a weak spot of the armour of someone riding on top of it. A someone who will be trying to cut you down from above while you’re doing so, what’s more.

    At the bottom line, the rider might be armoured… but all this does is provide additional disincentive to attack the rider in the first place. Too little of the unit as a whole, however, is protected by armour for it to count as an armoured unit.

    Still, I would argue with the “knights would already be completely useless as long as gryphons were available”. Yes, gryphons can fly, that can help in many situations. Still, despite being unable to pass obstacles, knight still can’t be easily outplayed (they’re well round unit). The only disadvantage of a knight in that case, that it’s not easy to use in siege (however, I’m pretty sure that for the siege we can bring something else)

    A flying unit could easily overfly it to get at vulnerable units behind it, or if the knight is engaged, flank the knight (at which point it loses the benefit of shield, but may still be vulnerable to Overwhelm). Oh, hey, look, it’s a flying unit we’re comparing it to!

    Additionally, shield doesn’t help against nonphysical attacks, and gryphon riders have a higher resistance than knights. So against fire, frost, shock and spirit, the gryphon rider is actually more durable than the knight (unless the knight is elite in the case of spirit). Generally, unless the Slayer attributes or the vulnerabilities come into play, the extra 5hp, point of armour and damage, and Shield may mean the knight can win a face-to-face fight with a gryphon rider, although with the gryphon rider having First Strike, it’d be a pretty close thing. But that’s only if the gryphon rider’s player is forced into accepting such a fair, one-on-one fight. If they are… either it’s part of some ploy that accepts sacrificing the gryphon, or they’ve made a mistake somewhere.

    Oh, and if gryphon riders get armoured and the associated bump to defense, they’d have the same defense as knights do before Shield, eroding some of that one-on-one advantage. Throw First Strike into the mix, and if the gryphon rider is able to keep defending and make the knight attack it, it’d probably win the matchup.

    Still you can find counters not relying on blight (polearms still useful, Draconian Charger is awesome).

    These counter humans just as easily.

    I’m not trying to counter blight (or other elemental damage in other cases) with physical defence 😀
    Also, the blight weakness is that makes Gryphon Riders not jack-of-all-kicks (read, OP can’t be countered), but just pretty good unit to play around with.

    You’re saying that elves are weak because they have blight vulnerability, and proposing a change that would likely result in their top unit gaining more physical defense. Sorry, but you are coming across as saying ‘elves are weak against blight, so they should be buffed against physical’

    Ah, it’s more clear now, thanks. Well, it depends on “if the city is mostly relying on ranged units for defenses” or not. If they’re relying on ranges, then yes, any flyer can make day yours (if used properly, ofc). Still (as elves especially), it’s the pain to (because of blight again, also their “filth pit” is really monstrous) siege goblin city without blight immuned units (and still, IIRC, “filth pit” can apply noxious vulnerability and weakened).

    Even if the defender doesn’t have a lot of ranged units, it’s a lot more convenient if you can fly over the walls anywhere you choose rather than being funneled through chokepoints or having to fight while wallclimbing. Yes, the human dreadnought can have other units for sieging. The elf dreadnought doesn’t have to.

    And regarding sieging goblins as elves – that’s not something I’d regard as ‘a pain’. Fly or teleport over the walls, make mincemeat out of the Swarm Darters and Blight Doctors (in that order, swarm darters go down easy), mop up the rest. Blight vulnerability means you’ll take a bit more damage than you would against other races. Elves (as a race) are still the kings of sieges.

    Oh, looks like I can’t remember what Beetles and Knight were like before 1.4

    Not much worse than they are now. Balance is relative, after all. I think beetles mainly got a price decrease and the new goblin heal on wetlands trait, and knights gained the two slayer abilities and lost Devout.

    I can’t see the reason of Firstborn being behind the Flyers, but I see why Flyers is also behind the Gryphons.

    Like I said, it depends on how much someone values flying. I’m getting the impression that you haven’t figured out how to make the most of it and thus value it lower than others might.

    1)even if human racial bonus to production is small, it allows them to build up their empire on supersonic speed (with expander it’s light speed), because of humans synergy with dreadnougth class

    It’s five production. Every so often it means you’ll make a breakpoint when you wouldn’t otherwise, but it’s a pretty niche benefit. If there was spillover production or a means of converting production into gold (note: produce merchandise just increases the base gold income by 50%) then this might be a more valuable advantage, but it doesn’t.

    I also don’t see what other synergy humans have with dreadnoughts beyond ‘units that aren’t priests or irregulars are armoured’ and ‘has armoured cavalry at tier 3’. High elves would have both qualities if your proposal was introduced.

    2)because of 1), humans can outrun elves in terms of research

    1) is a niche situation. Meanwhile, elves get a natural +3 to research in all their cities. I’m pretty sure that will outweigh getting the occasional building a turn earlier. In those niche situations where +5 production actually makes the difference.

    3)due to 1) and 2) they can go on offensive (ot at least harrasing) earlier

    Due to my responses to 1) and 2), it may actually be elves that can go on offensive (or at least harassing) earlier. Particularly since longbowmen can potentially allow high elves to creep effectively early on with little damage. Doubly so if there are a lot of forests on the map, which elves can pass through without difficulty while humans… can’t.

    4)human knight allows them cleaning more difficult sites earlier and easier (and more goodies from that)

    Gryphon riders, in my experience, actually do a better job at that, particularly if you can get your hands on a flying or floating hero, since not only do they grant more scope for tactical maneuvering while fighting creep stacks (in SP, where you’re not expected to autoresolve them) and because their strategic mobility allows them to more quickly move between sites of interest. At most, you might have some particularly hard to crack sites where the slayer abilities make a difference (and the greater flanking abilities of gryphons don’t), but I’ve ran into few sites where luring the enemy to attack a gryphon on guard and then swarming the flanks doesn’t work, and gryphons are better at roaming around the place hitting EVERYTHING.

    5)human dread (partially because of racial units) fares good against any class (except sorc, especially elven sorc)

    Again, you’re exaggerating the effect of blight vulnerability. Unicorn riders and gryphon riders bring strategic and tactical mobility that dreadnoughts don’t normally have, allowing them to have a response to mobility-based tactics from other classes, which the human dreadnought would be less equipped to fight.

    7)human dread can easily rule the waves (if there are water tiles)

    Dreadnoughts can already have a significant naval advantage due to ironclads, and Mariner doesn’t really add a lot on top of that. Furthermore, if you have gryphon riders, flying units don’t need to embark – so they don’t take embarkment penalties and can move more swiftly across water barriers than a fleet can be moved. With a combined force of pistolier gryphon riders possibly augmented by a few ironclad warships, you can control the waves and strike with impunity at anything within half a dozen hexes or so of the shore.

    8)is optional due to 7), but the human dread can mantain cities happyness much more easily from early to midgame (in lategame, all have 800 in all cities)

    This is the one point I’ll accept, since humans are generally easier to keep high morale with than elves. This is (mostly) a general thing, though, and most competitive players still prefer elves to humans. The ‘mostly’ comes from juggernauts having the ability to knock down forests to create fertile plains, which generally makes humans happier and elves unhappier. Again, though, this is a pretty niche circumstance.

    #128516

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Seriously:

    I am just boggled that certain folks are this hung up on adding a feature to a unit that will give it a paltry +1 Armor only when the said unit is played by a particular class.

    Unbelievable disconnect between a particular faction and the general player-base (I initially wrote “the general good,” after reading so much about the American Revolution, and the Founders preoccupation with the problem of “faction”! :).

    #128525

    I thought it wasn’t the Gryphon that was armoured, but rather the rider, ergo not enough armour to qualify as armouring the whole unit.

    That said, I’m not entirely sure how much of a difference it will make giving Gryphon riders armoured stats wise, but I do think the cost reduction from Elf Dreadnought will be an issue for sure..

    #128542

    I am just boggled that certain folks are this hung up on adding a feature to a unit that will give it a paltry +1 Armor only when the said unit is played by a particular class.

    its the net +1 defense from armoring usually, and the +1 from the Blacksmith upgrade, and most importantly, the 10% cost reduction. You get the best for less, in that case.

    Even though Elves are actually the best of the not Dragon things there, we don’t need that to be totally reflected in the game mechanics.

    #128625

    Ayenara
    Member

    I was surprised to see this thread since I’ve always assumed Gryphon Riders to be Armored. In fact, I even spent many games practicing High Elf Dreadnought for my games vs Gab and Jomungur with this assumption in mind. However, I found that lacking easy access to healing I had trouble expanding early on. Building Longbowmen worked alright, but still it took time to set things up. In the end I felt that the combination was risky since a lot of things could go wrong, and I needed a lot of things to go right.

    It could potentially be really good, but even if I got to the point where I was pumping out buffed up Gryphon Riders I wouldn’t be able to fight with them too much without risking losses so they would mainly be used as an anti-scout or harrassing force. Anyway, I didn’t get to use the Gryphon Riders much in the practice games so I never noticed the lack of an Armored trait. Maybe I needed to play things a bit better/different to make full use of the (non-existant) Armored trait of the Gryphon Riders.

    Draxynnic makes some very good points, especially when he compares the High Elf Swordsman, Gryphon, and the Gryphon Rider, while also considering the Gryphon Rider unit model. However, there are already several cases in the game where the unit model doesn’t really match up perfectly with the attributes of the unit. For example, Dwarf Boar Riders could easily have the Polearm trait from looking at their art.

    We can also look elsewhere in the game to see how it’s handled there. The High Elf Unicorn Rider is Armored, but the Unicorns don’t have any visible armor on them. Compared to the Fey Unicorn the riders give one extra Defense, 3 HP, change 4 Spirit damage to Physical, while losing Cure Disease, Strong Will, and 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.

    Considering the existence of Heroes and other special individuals, the AoW world of magic and artifacts, and that probably only the most elite of the High Elfs become Gryphon Riders, I don’t find it unreasonable that the riders and their armor could be quite relevant in a fight.

    Synergies are fun, so I think it would benefit the game to add the Armored trait to the Gryphon Rider. High Elf Dreadnought would become interesting (again) but I do not think it would by any means be overpowered. Dwarf Dreadnought would probably still be the top Dreadnought race, considering the inherent mobility Mountaineering gives and the Armored Forge Priests. As for the other races I cannot really speak much of, they all have some things that makes them the best at something.

    #128646

    Gloweye
    Member

    We can also look elsewhere in the game to see how it’s handled there. The High Elf Unicorn Rider is Armored, but the Unicorns don’t have any visible armor on them. Compared to the Fey Unicorn the riders give one extra Defense, 3 HP, change 4 Spirit damage to Physical, while losing Cure Disease, Strong Will, and 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.

    And they lose Dedicated to Good, which is almost purely an advantage.

    #128648

    Mithlond
    Member

    We can also look elsewhere in the game to see how it’s handled there. The High Elf Unicorn Rider is Armored, but the Unicorns don’t have any visible armor on them. Compared to the Fey Unicorn the riders give one extra Defense, 3 HP, change 4 Spirit damage to Physical, while losing Cure Disease, Strong Will, and 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.

    Unicorn riders have more armor, three times as much, it would be equal to a gryphon carrying 3 high elven swordsmen on its back, in that case armored trait can be justified. The gryphon have no armor that is visible, the rider is a smaller part of the model than the 3 riders are on the unicorn unit. Granted compared with a knight that is more or less visually an armored tank very few cavalry unit should be armored.

    Synergies are fun, so I think it would benefit the game to add the Armored trait to the Gryphon Rider. High Elf Dreadnought would become interesting (again) but I do not think it would by any means be overpowered. Dwarf Dreadnought would probably still be the top Dreadnought race, considering the inherent mobility Mountaineering gives and the Armored Forge Priests. As for the other races I cannot really speak much of, they all have some things that makes them the best at something.

    Armored gryphons almost obsolete dread knights imho. Warlord gryphons already beat the knight equivalent, do we seriously wanna see gryphons producable with the stats: 86hp, 14 defens, 13 resistance and martial arts? The thing is already relatively OP.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 89 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.