Gryphon Riders

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Gryphon Riders

This topic contains 88 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  hilfazer 8 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #128657

    Aennor
    Member

    I was surprised to see this thread since I’ve always assumed Gryphon Riders to be Armored

    That’s exactly why I’ve created the thread, I’ve always thought they’re armored, while they’re not 😀

    For example, Dwarf Boar Riders could easily have the Polearm trait from looking at their art.

    Should we start a topic for that? 😀

    We can also look elsewhere in the game to see how it’s handled there. The High Elf Unicorn Rider is Armored, but the Unicorns don’t have any visible armor on them. Compared to the Fey Unicorn the riders give one extra Defense, 3 HP, change 4 Spirit damage to Physical, while losing Cure Disease, Strong Will, and gains 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.

    Sorry, for the correction, but it really could be read as they losed the weakness 🙂
    Yep, though Draxynnic had a point with the animal gryphon being t2 and rider being t3, while unicorns (and their riders) being t2. Still, “Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.”

    And they lose Dedicated to Good, which is almost purely an advantage.

    The same could be applied to gryphons

    Considering the existence of Heroes and other special individuals, the AoW world of magic and artifacts, and that probably only the most elite of the High Elfs become Gryphon Riders, I don’t find it unreasonable that the riders and their armor could be quite relevant in a fight.

    Well said. Couldn’t say better myself.

    As for the other races I cannot really speak much of, they all have some things that makes them the best at something.

    Yep.

    Even though Elves are actually the best of the not Dragon things there, we don’t need that to be totally reflected in the game mechanics.

    I’ll not suggest that for sure.

    That said, I’m not entirely sure how much of a difference it will make giving Gryphon riders armoured stats wise, but I do think the cost reduction from Elf Dreadnought will be an issue for sure..

    Well, thank the Gods, Goblin Big Beetle is not armored, or it’ll an issue for sure.

    Again, you’re exaggerating the effect of blight vulnerability. Unicorn riders and gryphon riders bring strategic and tactical mobility that dreadnoughts don’t normally have, allowing them to have a response to mobility-based tactics from other classes, which the human dreadnought would be less equipped to fight.

    It’s not the vulnerability, ot at least not only that. While mobility is always good, I wouldn’t like to face theocrat being an Elf with gryphons, but as Human with knights…well it’ll still be painful, but not so. Or sorc, whose Watcher has dual channel on range, and, IIRC, quadruple (phys, shock, blight, spirit), and Eldritch Horror is even worse.

    Gryphon riders, in my experience, actually do a better job at that, particularly if you can get your hands on a flying or floating hero, since not only do they grant more scope for tactical maneuvering while fighting creep stacks (in SP, where you’re not expected to autoresolve them) and because their strategic mobility allows them to more quickly move between sites of interest. At most, you might have some particularly hard to crack sites where the slayer abilities make a difference (and the greater flanking abilities of gryphons don’t), but I’ve ran into few sites where luring the enemy to attack a gryphon on guard and then swarming the flanks doesn’t work, and gryphons are better at roaming around the place hitting EVERYTHING.

    Then we just have different experience on that case.

    It’s five production. Every so often it means you’ll make a breakpoint when you wouldn’t otherwise, but it’s a pretty niche benefit. If there was spillover production or a means of converting production into gold (note: produce merchandise just increases the base gold income by 50%) then this might be a more valuable advantage, but it doesn’t.

    Still, I personally find it pretty useful. In combination with city happyness (and expander again, not counting pickups though, it’s even more random factor than terrain) that, in my experience, pretty big deal.

    Pretty sure you’re being facetious here, since (and I just checked the Tome of Wonders, so unless that’s incorrect…) there are no warlord abilities that key off being Armoured.

    I mean, that Martial Arts bonus, that can be pretty hard with armored units (unless I missed something).

    Like I said, it depends on how much someone values flying. I’m getting the impression that you haven’t figured out how to make the most of it and thus value it lower than others might.

    Well, I wouldn’t argue on that point, you may have the point there.

    These counter humans just as easily.

    Well, it counters any mounted/flying (not sure about floating though) if we want to counter further. Still, against Human Knight, they need Armor Piercing, while against the Gryphon Rider they don’t need, and that’s the advantage of knights, as I see it.

    Particularly since longbowmen can potentially allow high elves to creep effectively early on with little damage. Doubly so if there are a lot of forests on the map, which elves can pass through without difficulty while humans… can’t.

    Well, you’ve a point there. Longbowmen are superior.

    And regarding sieging goblins as elves – that’s not something I’d regard as ‘a pain’. Fly or teleport over the walls, make mincemeat out of the Swarm Darters and Blight Doctors (in that order, swarm darters go down easy), mop up the rest. Blight vulnerability means you’ll take a bit more damage than you would against other races. Elves (as a race) are still the kings of sieges.

    I’d rather do that trick with, I dunno, draconians? (in that case elven dread can just went on rampage, yeah)

    You’re saying that elves are weak because they have blight vulnerability, and proposing a change that would likely result in their top unit gaining more physical defense. Sorry, but you are coming across as saying ‘elves are weak against blight, so they should be buffed against physical’

    Well, I said that blight weakness is the factor that prevents the elves just going on the rampage.

    Don’t you think it would be much easier to take that sword and swing at the gryphon’s head, neck, or breast? You’re still at risk from the beak and claws that way, but at least you can keep it at blade’s length rather than standing next to it as you try to thrust upwards into a weak spot of the armour of someone riding on top of it. A someone who will be trying to cut you down from above while you’re doing so, what’s more.

    Well, I would prefer not to engage a gryphon with something not-polearm.

    #128663

    Ayenara
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ayenara wrote:</div>
    We can also look elsewhere in the game to see how it’s handled there. The High Elf Unicorn Rider is Armored, but the Unicorns don’t have any visible armor on them. Compared to the Fey Unicorn the riders give one extra Defense, 3 HP, change 4 Spirit damage to Physical, while losing Cure Disease, Strong Will, and 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.

    Unicorn riders have more armor, three times as much, it would be equal to a gryphon carrying 3 high elven swordsmen on its back, in that case armored trait can be justified. The gryphon have no armor that is visible, the rider is a smaller part of the model than the 3 riders are on the unicorn unit. Granted compared with a knight that is more or less visually an armored tank very few cavalry unit should be armored.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ayenara wrote:</div>
    Synergies are fun, so I think it would benefit the game to add the Armored trait to the Gryphon Rider. High Elf Dreadnought would become interesting (again) but I do not think it would by any means be overpowered. Dwarf Dreadnought would probably still be the top Dreadnought race, considering the inherent mobility Mountaineering gives and the Armored Forge Priests. As for the other races I cannot really speak much of, they all have some things that makes them the best at something.

    Armored gryphons almost obsolete dread knights imho. Warlord gryphons already beat the knight equivalent, do we seriously wanna see gryphons producable with the stats: 86hp, 14 defens, 13 resistance and martial arts? The thing is already relatively OP.

    I have trouble seeing how anyting related to WL is OP in multiplayer at the moment. I’d be glad for you to show me otherwise.

    Also, this isn’t a straight comparison between Knights and Gryphon Riders. You need to take the rest of the race into consideration. The Priests are one the greatest strengths Humans have and would make me want to choose Humans over Elves in many cases.

    #128670

    Well, thank the Gods, Goblin Big Beetle is not armored, or it’ll an issue for sure.

    You know, I’d actually rather see an armored big beetle than anything else, since 1). beetles have that tough shell, which is armor like, and 2). why not give goblin dreadnought something other than musketeer spam.

    Also, this isn’t a straight comparison between Knights and Gryphon Riders. You need to take the rest of the race into consideration. The Priests are one the greatest strengths Humans have and would make me want to choose Humans over Elves in many cases.

    even for dreadnought if an armored gryphon rider meant that you get a discount on the two best cavalry in the game?

    #128675

    Gloweye
    Member

    Ayenara wrote:
    and gainsLose 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.

    Sorry, for the correction, but it really could be read as they losed the weakness

    They do, as Unicorns have 40% Blight Weakness.

    #128703

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Ayenara wrote:

    Considering the existence of Heroes and other special individuals, the AoW world of magic and artifacts, and that probably only the most elite of the High Elfs become Gryphon Riders, I don’t find it unreasonable that the riders and their armor could be quite relevant in a fight.

    Well said. Couldn’t say better myself.

    Considering that eight high elf swordsmen only have an attack value of 10 or so between them, the single rider’s relatively small contribution… is still a contribution that marks them as a grade above the norm.

    Their armour… provides that much additional disincentive to try to go for the rider. It doesn’t do anything to protect the mount, which when push comes to shove, is the more dangerous and easier to hit of the two.

    Yep, though Draxynnic had a point with the animal gryphon being t2 and rider being t3, while unicorns (and their riders) being t2. Still, “Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.”

    Unicorns are in a bit of a weird place since as well as the distinction between the Sylvan Court unicorn (which is one/unit) and the unicorns ridden by elves, you also have the default mount of elf heroes which lacks Phase. My gut feeling is that there are different ‘grades’ of unicorn, and the unicorns produced from fey dwellings are the highest grade of unicorn – possibly because they’re faerie creatures that can only reach their full potential in unspoiled meadows rather than the environs of even an elven city.

    Well, thank the Gods, Goblin Big Beetle is not armored, or it’ll an issue for sure.

    Why would Big Beetles being armoured be more of an issue than gryphon riders being armoured?

    It’s not the vulnerability, ot at least not only that. While mobility is always good, I wouldn’t like to face theocrat being an Elf with gryphons, but as Human with knights…well it’ll still be painful, but not so. Or sorc, whose Watcher has dual channel on range, and, IIRC, quadruple (phys, shock, blight, spirit), and Eldritch Horror is even worse.

    Knights only have the advantage versus theocrat if you get them to gold first. Which might apply if you’re a lategame warlord, but otherwise, you can’t exactly rely on them all having Strong Will. Otherwise, the gryphon rider’s additional resistance gives it the advantage against any nonphysical channel that isn’t blight. (Incidentally, Watchers only have three melee channels. If you’re getting shock, it’s probably because they’re being led by a sorcerer.)

    Still, I personally find it pretty useful. In combination with city happyness (and expander again, not counting pickups though, it’s even more random factor than terrain) that, in my experience, pretty big deal.

    I think you’re overrating it. High happiness is a much bigger deal.

    I mean, that Martial Arts bonus, that can be pretty hard with armored units (unless I missed something).

    Unless I’ve missed something, there’s no direct synergy between Martial Arts and Armoured, except that armoured units typically have a higher defense to begin with.

    Well, it counters any mounted/flying (not sure about floating though) if we want to counter further. Still, against Human Knight, they need Armor Piercing, while against the Gryphon Rider they don’t need, and that’s the advantage of knights, as I see it.

    They don’t ‘need’ armour piercing. It can help, but knights only have one defense higher than gryphons. If gryphon riders were armoured, it’d be the same (that or it’d be a pure nerf except when the gryphons are being used by dreads, and I’d really raise a mental eyebrow at any move that nerfs a race’s unit for any class except the one that least fits that race thematically). Shield is probably a bigger advantage, unless the knight is flanked, attacked by nonphysical damage, attacked by a unit with overwhelm, or worst of all, attacked on the flank by a unit with overwhelm.

    I’d rather do that trick with, I dunno, draconians? (in that case elven dread can just went on rampage, yeah)

    Draconians need to get to flyers before they can cross the wall – they can’t phase across the wall with tier 2 cavalry like elves can. Granted, flamers are more effective at shooting over the wall than longbowmen. However, draconians completely lack armoured (apart from class units) and thus have less synergy with dreadnought than being able to do the trick with cavalry (particularly since, later in the game, if a dread wants to shoot the walls that have other options). So while it might be up to discussion from the perspective of other classes… from a dread’s perspective, elves bring the most to sieges.

    Well, I would prefer not to engage a gryphon with something not-polearm.

    And that’s why polearms grant a bonus against cavalry. To be honest, though, even with a polearm, going for the rider probably still involves getting uncomfortably close when you can just poke your long pointy stick into the gryphon, with less concern about it glancing off armour.

    #128709

    Aennor
    Member

    They do, as Unicorns have 40% Blight Weakness.

    Woops, don’t know why I forgot that, my apologies.

    You know, I’d actually rather see an armored big beetle than anything else, since 1). beetles have that tough shell, which is armor like, and 2). why not give goblin dreadnought something other than musketeer spam.

    Well, I don’t think it should be armored in the same fashion, but you have a point. Should we start a discussion? 😀
    Also, if we mention it here, let’s say the beetles should have not a usual “armored” trait but, let call it, “hard chitin”, works the same way, just not susceptible for armor piercing (I can’t find a reason why it should be pierced the same way the armor does), and also can’t be affected by -10% (still can be affected by dreadnought armor buffs, dunno what dreads do in their laboratories) .

    You need to take the rest of the race into consideration.

    Couldn’t say better myself.

    even for dreadnought if an armored gryphon rider meant that you get a discount on the two best cavalry in the game?

    They can be superior in terms of mobility, still they aren’t a panacea.

    #128714

    Aennor
    Member

    And that’s why polearms grant a bonus against cavalry. To be honest, though, even with a polearm, going for the rider probably still involves getting uncomfortably close when you can just poke your long pointy stick into the gryphon, with less concern about it glancing off armour.

    If it would be so easy. There are still factors.

    Draconians need to get to flyers before they can cross the wall – they can’t phase across the wall with tier 2 cavalry like elves can.

    Sorry for misunderstanding. I meant that I would rather siege the Draconians in the fashion you pointed than Goblins.

    Knights only have the advantage versus theocrat if you get them to gold first. Which might apply if you’re a lategame warlord, but otherwise, you can’t exactly rely on them all having Strong Will. Otherwise, the gryphon rider’s additional resistance gives it the advantage against any nonphysical channel that isn’t blight. (Incidentally, Watchers only have three melee channels. If you’re getting shock, it’s probably because they’re being led by a sorcerer.)

    I assumed that they’re leading by sorc, yes. Also, I always compare the units with gold medal (since it’s easy to reach), and that’s why I find that knights is already better against watchers (against Eldritch Horror I would like to put something else than both gryphons and knights if possible), since they just ignores spirit.

    Unless I’ve missed something, there’s no direct synergy between Martial Arts and Armoured, except that armoured units typically have a higher defense to begin with.

    That’s what am I talking abhout.

    #128717

    Draxynnic
    Member

    If it would be so easy. There are still factors.

    Yes, but going for the rider adds more factors still.

    Sorry for misunderstanding. I meant that I would rather siege the Draconians in the fashion you pointed than Goblins.

    Ahhh, right. Yeah, a race with a high reliance on a non-blight nonphysical channel would be a good target for high-resistance elves.

    Also, I always compare the units with gold medal (since it’s easy to reach), and that’s why I find that knights is already better against watchers (against Eldritch Horror I would like to put something else than both gryphons and knights if possible), since they just ignores spirit.

    It’s easy-ish to reach, but not so easy it can be assumed, unless perhaps it’s your hero’s death stack and you’re not needing to reinforce your numbers (which typically only happens in SP, and even then I’d expect greener troops to still being produced unless you’re producing something else instead). In practise, against theocrat, you’re likely to have some knights that are gold+ and some that aren’t, unless you’re no longer producing rookie knights for some reason or another. In terms of resisting spirit, gold+ knights may win, but the tin, bronze, and silver knights will suffer more than gryphon riders of the same rank.

    Possibly more significantly from the dreadnought’s perspective, though, countering spirit damage is not exactly something that dreadnoughts have a problem with, since all of their machines are immune to spirit damage.

    #128732

    Ayenara
    Member

    If only the Armored trait was added and nothing else changed I think there’s no problem. In 90% of the cases it’s only an added weakness. Even if a Dreadnought is playing it, Armor Piercing would still do more damage than before the suggested change (+1 Defense compared to +1 damage). The only buff would be the 10% cheaper cost, which together with the added weakness surely isn’t gamebreaking.

    #128736

    Leyrann
    Member

    The walls of text… Is it really THAT important? It looks armored, so lets give it armored, okay?

    #128752

    Ayenara
    Member

    The walls of text… Is it really THAT important? It looks armored, so lets give it armored, okay?

    If it looks armored or not is actually one of the things we are debating. If you read some of the arguments maybe you would be so kind and contribute with better educated opinion? I’d appreciate it.

    #128753

    NuMetal
    Member

    If only the Armored trait was added and nothing else changed I think there’s no problem. In 90% of the cases it’s only an added weakness. Even if a Dreadnought is playing it, Armor Piercing would still do more damage than before the suggested change (+1 Defense compared to +1 damage). The only buff would be the 10% cheaper cost, which together with the added weakness surely isn’t gamebreaking.

    This. +1

    #128762

    Epaminondas
    Member

    The walls of text… Is it really THAT important? It looks armored, so lets give it armored, okay?

    Amen, brother.

    #128763

    Ayenara
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ayenara wrote:</div>
    If only the Armored trait was added and nothing else changed I think there’s no problem. In 90% of the cases it’s only an added weakness. Even if a Dreadnought is playing it, Armor Piercing would still do more damage than before the suggested change (+1 Defense compared to +2 damage). The only buff would be the 10% cheaper cost, which together with the added weakness surely isn’t gamebreaking.

    This. +1

    I realized I wrote it wrong it should be +2 damage.

    #128764

    Mithlond
    Member

    I have trouble seeing how anyting related to WL is OP in multiplayer at the moment. I’d be glad for you to show me otherwise.

    That has everything to do with the warlords poor scouting capabilities, not the relative power of the gryphon compared with other t3s.

    Also, this isn’t a straight comparison between Knights and Gryphon Riders. You need to take the rest of the race into consideration. The Priests are one the greatest strengths Humans have and would make me want to choose Humans over Elves in many cases.

    Humans have priests & armored knights, High elves Archers & flying cavalry. The balance is there, i fail to see why the High elves need an Armored flying cavalry unit. Why is that necessary? High elves have very strong synergy with many archer class units, the druid hunters & Mounted archers are prime examples that would make me pick High elves over human. Since priests were nerfed to the temple, i think the balance is working.

    f only the Armored trait was added and nothing else changed I think there’s no problem. In 90% of the cases it’s only an added weakness. Even if a Dreadnought is playing it, Armor Piercing would still do more damage than before the suggested change (+1 Defense compared to +1 damage). The only buff would be the 10% cheaper cost, which together with the added weakness surely isn’t gamebreaking.

    Armor piercing is not that prevalent, it is a rare trait for most part. Armored gryphons is nothing but a straight buff imo since they now gain more synergy with one class(Dread) that isn’t necessary, they already perform well with dreads due to flying & fire pistols.

    A synergy with the Enchanted armory(Crystal tree) opens up, and i personally don’t want to see a gryphons with +2 defens/ +1 resistance, this unit already have some of the best stuff, flying, first strike(to help mitigate pikemen) and a terrific gold medal reward in Tireless.

    The walls of text… Is it really THAT important? It looks armored, so lets give it armored, okay?

    Does it? I can’t see any armor at all on the gryphon, only the rider. The argument is that Unicorns follows the same style, yet what is being ignored it seems, is that the Unicorns unit consist of 3 riders, i will repeat three times as much armor. If the gryphon unit had 3 armored riders on its back i would find it more reasonable.

    #128766

    I find it heartening that we can debate the finer points of such a thing, because, make no mistake, this is a very fine point, and one that most people won’t care about.

    Seems to me that it indicates the game is in a pretty good place if we can debate whether or not an extra point of defence and a 10% reduction is a buff overall compared to a vulnerability to armour piercing.

    For my money, give it the armour trait but reduce it’s mp to 32. Gryphons are tough, but that armour surely weighs something?

    So, Gryphons end up being overall tankier, but still manoeuvrable on the strategic map, but Cavalry on straight roads work out a little bit faster.

    Minor changes overall imho.

    #128774

    Ayenara
    Member

    BBB: The Gryphon Rider already has 30 MP, giving it 32 would be a buff.

    Mithlond: Armor Piercing is not that uncommon. Rogues can give it to the whole army on lvl 3. Many Racial units have it either from start or with some medals.

    #128775

    Mithlond
    Member

    Seems to me that it indicates the game is in a pretty good place if we can debate whether or not an extra point of defence and a 10% reduction is a buff overall compared to a vulnerability to armour piercing.

    Why do i get the feeling the Enchanted armory is being ignored? 😀 Sure it isn’t that common to find one yet dreadnought is only one class, any class can benefit from the Enchanted Armory. I don’t think the potential of producing 14 def/13 res gryphons should be in the game, in the warlord context it is a relative balance disaster.

    For my money, give it the armour trait but reduce it’s mp to 32. Gryphons are tough, but that armour surely weighs something?

    I find the armored concept is against the flying nature of the unit, how many armored flying units exist within the game? The armor on the rider is not enough to justify the whole model being armored. I like your proposal in case they get armored as it makes logical sense yet i don’t see a change necessary to begin with.

    #128784

    Mithlond
    Member

    @ayenara

    Rogue leader/hero is the most prevalent scource for it.

    Out of 49 racial units only two(!) have Armor piercing inherently, Goblin skewers & unicorn riders. From medals seven units gain it from Gold medal(racial pikemen+ dwarf x bow) and three from bronze medal, two orcs and 1 halfling unit. Add a few more class units to that list. Unless we consider pikemen(Gold medal)there is no fixed unit type with it, overwhelm for instance is more reliable since it is present on almost all none shielded infantry inherently and even a few cavalry units(Two handed, dual wield)

    It is a vulnerability i find unnecessary for the gryphon, but worse yet it the disturbance of class balance when there is nothing wrong with it. Anyone who thinks flying + pistol isn’t good enough should imo reconsider. Why should synergy with solid engineering/great blacksmithing/Enchanted armory be necessary?

    #128798

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The walls of text… Is it really THAT important? It looks armored, so lets give it armored, okay?

    As Ayenara says, whether it looks armoured is one of the things being debated. The rider is armoured, but most of the surface of the unit as a whole (and the surface which, IMO, is most likely to be attacked) is not. Regular cavalry it’s feasible that people will go for the rider on the assumption that the mount will bolt of the rider is killed (exceptions: wargs, raptors, and unicorns, two of which are unarmoured) and because the rider is, relatively speaking, an easier target. For a gryphon rider, I don’t think anyone sane would really go for the rider when it’s safer and easier to stab the gryphon.

    Balance also needs to be considered. As Mithlond says, flying + pistol is already a good combination, particularly on a class where this plugs one of their weaknesses (strategic and tactical mobility). Adding the dreadnought bonuses for armoured on top of that isn’t really necessary – and from a lore perspective, do we really want high elves to be great dreadnoughts?

    Enchanted Armory is another consideration – gryphon riders are already considered one of the better racial t3s. They don’t really need more help. And if you nerf them somewhere else to balance them – then you’re nerfing elves for all the classes that are actually appropriate for them in order to buff them for the one class that largely isn’t.

    #128806

    terrahero
    Member

    Much appreciated for the effort Draxy, but i really dont think it matters that much. Its litteraly just +1def and a 10% discount for Dreadnoughts if Gryphon Riders got armored.
    All the other stuff of patching up mobility weaknesses HE already do fantastically, and will not do significantly more fantastic with this change. This will certainly not be a make or break moment.

    However there is a point where we need to accept that some things are the way they are for the sake of gameplay and not realism. And for the sake of gameplay, i see no real reason to change the Gryphon Rider.
    I just dont want this precedence to be set. In my opinion if we start giving units skills and attributes based on their unit model it will lead to discussions with no end.
    The Human Knight and the Dwarven Boar Rider should get the Polearm ability. The Phalanx unit has Shield, but doesnt carry one so that should be removed. etc etc

    #128816

    Gloweye
    Member

    he Phalanx unit has Shield, but doesnt carry one so that should be removed. etc etc

    Have you looked? it has a small shield on the left arm.

    Also, I don’t think it’s to much to demand the unit models appear like the ability list would suggest.

    As for the Gryphon Rider itself, I think it should be added. If Elf Dread really proves to strong because of this, the +1 def can always be taken off again, making it into a almost pure weakness.

    #128817

    Ayenara
    Member

    @ayenara

    Rogue leader/hero is the most prevalent scource for it.

    Out of 49 racial units only two(!) have Armor piercing inherently, Goblin skewers & unicorn riders. From medals seven units gain it from Gold medal(racial pikemen+ dwarf x bow) and three from bronze medal, two orcs and 1 halfling unit. Add a few more class units to that list. Unless we consider pikemen(Gold medal)there is no fixed unit type with it, overwhelm for instance is more reliable since it is present on almost all none shielded infantry inherently and even a few cavalry units(Two handed, dual wield)

    It is a vulnerability i find unnecessary for the gryphon, but worse yet it the disturbance of class balance when there is nothing wrong with it. Anyone who thinks flying + pistol isn’t good enough should imo reconsider. Why should synergy with solid engineering/great blacksmithing/Enchanted armory be necessary?

    What everything boils down to is that you think that the change would make the Dreadnought Gryphon Riders too strong, while I disagree.

    I guess we can agree on that finding combos and synergies are fun, and are rewarded in a game like this.

    In this case it’s a very minor buff to a combination that isn’t at all popular at the moment. It’s a buff that comes into effect later in the game, where every player has more and more tools to fight eachother. It’s a buff in an area where Dreadnought has generally been weak at, but it doesn’t change much compared to before. And in a bigger sense, the buff will probably be completely irrelevant in a majority of games since it will come into effect too late, or have too little impact when it does.

    The “worst” case scenario is that High Elf Dreadnought becomes a popular combination to play. Is that so bad? Other combinations have plenty of ways to fight it. Warlord can build cheaper and stronger Gryphon Riders of its own. Sorcerer is already the king of mobility and lategame. Rogue can use concealment and Blight damage to outmaneuver the Elf Dreadnought. Theocrat has Exalted and a stronger early game. And more! These are jsut some things off the top of my head, and I’m probably forgetting more subtle strategies and tactics that emerge in a real game.

    tl;dr It’s a minor and fun change.

    #128818

    Ayenara
    Member

    And I think we should be clear on if we are discussing giving the Gryphon Riders:
    1. Armored and +1 Defense
    2. Armored
    3. Nothing

    I’m arguing for the 2nd option.

    #128825

    If only the Armored trait was added and nothing else changed I think there’s no problem. In 90% of the cases it’s only an added weakness. Even if a Dreadnought is playing it, Armor Piercing would still do more damage than before the suggested change (+1 Defense compared to +1 damage). The only buff would be the 10% cheaper cost, which together with the added weakness surely isn’t gamebreaking.

    I don’t really think of it in terms of gamebreaking (it wouldn’t be, even with the armored and +1 defense option), but in terms of lore appropriateness.

    This would make elves at the very least better than humans for Dreadnoughts, and a strong second after dwarves.

    You should also note that I’m not thinking only (or even primarily) of mp games, where changes to racial T-3’s won’t have much of an impact (since the structure is so expensive).

    Right now, humans give you (as Dreadnoughts) 1). mostly armored line up, 2). healing priest, 3). production bonus, 4). two armored cavalry (including the only armored T-3 cavalry).

    Elves offer 1). mostly armored line up, 2). best racial archers with upgrade, 3). ranged damage bonus, 4). best T-2 cavalry.

    I’d say humans are a better deal now, but if you add in the Gryphon rider with the unicorn cavalry, I think the meta will be upset.

    #128828

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Option 1A/2A: Armored (+1 Def) and -3 Move -> 27 Move.

    One less movement tile on world map and in combat, but enough that an action restore spell brings them from their remaining 2 Move after fully moving, +13, to 15 Move, enough for three more flying movement tiles. Further differentiating them from Flyers and Eagle Riders.

    That being said, one could certainly argue that Elven armor smithing techniques might allow them to design magically light armor enough to be truly considered armored, and yet not burden a flying mount(!!). Although I can also get behind the arguments that realistically speaking, the Gryphon itself is the most significant portion of the unit, thus making the Rider’s armor fairly irrelevant for or against the arguments.

    Honestly, if I have any concern, of which there isn’t much, it would be the Enchanted Armory synergy more than any of the class synergies that might exist for it.

    #128841

    Aennor
    Member

    Also, I don’t think it’s to much to demand the unit models appear like the ability list would suggest.

    Yep. My thoughts exactly.

    As for the Gryphon Rider itself, I think it should be added. If Elf Dread really proves to strong because of this, the +1 def can always be taken off again, making it into a almost pure weakness.

    Viable option.

    tl;dr It’s a minor and fun change.

    It’s absolutely tl;dr 😀

    nd I think we should be clear on if we are discussing giving the Gryphon Riders:
    1. Armored and +1 Defense
    2. Armored
    3. Nothing
    I’m arguing for the 2nd option.

    Me too for 2nd.

    Option 1A/2A: Armored (+1 Def) and -3 Move -> 27 Move.

    One less movement tile on world map and in combat, but enough that an action restore spell brings them from their remaining 2 Move after fully moving, +13, to 15 Move, enough for three more flying movement tiles. Further differentiating them from Flyers and Eagle Riders.

    Not bad idea. And the wolves are sated and the sheep intact.

    Honestly, if I have any concern, of which there isn’t much, it would be the Enchanted Armory synergy more than any of the class synergies that might exist for it.

    I’ll still be looking for Dwarves, they’re truly masters of Enchanted Armory synergy.

    #128850

    Mithlond
    Member

    I’ll still be looking for Dwarves, they’re truly masters of Enchanted Armory synergy.

    For Dwarves or more specifically the t3 unit, Firstborn, the Enchanted armory adds more of the same, tankiness for an already tanky unit, while nice it doesn’t change the unit as radically as it would for units with flying mobility & siege advantage.

    Firstborn, knights, shock troopers are still walking units and are therefore given additional toughness because of it. Flying units trade thoughtness for the advantage that flying gives but now suddenly there would be a tanky flying unit, that alone is upsetting.

    That is a nice & unnecessary buff for most classes.

    For a High elf dreadnought, the armory and solid engineering equals 15 defence gryphons, seriously? Why should i bother with a knight again?

    For warlords the gryphon is already arguably the best t3 unit(sometimes even obsoletes the t4 manticore), so lets add 14 defens to the 86hp/martial art/20% discount gryphon, seriously? Why should warlords bother with any other race. High elves already got superior Mounted archers, alongside the overbuffed Golem the most overpowered unit in the new patch.

    The Big beetle is a better candidate for armored as been suggested, at least i wouldn’t mind its synergy with the Enchanted armory.

    #128854

    Option 1A/2A: Armored (+1 Def) and -3 Move -> 27 Move.

    I’ll take that. It would make them the defined “heavy flying unit” role, which would be both lore appropriate and fun to use.

    That being said, one could certainly argue that Elven armor smithing techniques might allow them to design magically light armor enough to be truly considered armored, and yet not burden a flying mount(!!). Although I can also get behind the arguments that realistically speaking, the Gryphon itself is the most significant portion of the unit, thus making the Rider’s armor fairly irrelevant for or against the arguments.

    It would be nice if the unit had a little mail barding, but not essential. And yes, yes they could.

    #128864

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’ll take that. It would make them the defined “heavy flying unit” role, which would be both lore appropriate and fun to use.

    heavy doesn’t suit elf IMO.

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