Hatchings and Initiates…

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Hatchings and Initiates…

This topic contains 109 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #215019

    Zaskow
    Member

    Greetings!

    Devs did a good work buffing t1 racial irregulars in EL. Some of them goes from mediocrity to awesomeness (Civic Guard, Orc Spearman with warcry), some becomes good with RG upgrades (Untouchables) and some stays at crappy state.
    I talk about High Elf Initiates and Draconian Hatchings. On paper they look very good – evolving units on elite convert into much stronger unit. Hatching has a chance to become a T3 unit!
    But in practice they work terrible.
    No special combat abilities, no high stats (obviously).
    Very squishy (acceptable for irregular).
    Slow gaining of experience.
    In MP it’s almost impossible to upgrade these units to elite status, because autocombat. In SP situation is better, but still.
    I don’t know how it can be fixed (Quick Learner on veteran or through RG upgrades?), but now these units are usable only as emergency garrison against angry neutrals, while other racial irregulars have much wider use.

    Let’s discuss.

    #215021

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    I got no issue with these units at all.

    Access to elemental damage and potential T3 if you are lucky with evolve. Fun stuff that you might not want to build a strategy around but are a nice touch. Thread is not needed at all IMO.

    #215025

    Initiates and hatchlings erase the problem many classes have with lost souls, so they are a subtle use for some strategies (elf rogue). Otherwise, merc camp storm sisters are a lot of cheap fun.

    #215028

    ExNihil
    Member

    Slow gaining of experience.

    Perhaps a diminshed form of the Fast Learner ability that gives these units extra 25% XP? This might balance their squishness and the way the AI uses them.

    IMO hatchlings are rather shite – always were, initiates are better though, primarily due to their shock damage which is pretty rare, and can thus be useful situationally.

    #215030

    Xaneorath
    Member

    I like my hatchlings as they are.
    Sometimes they live, sometimes they die. Way too often the AI manages to kill off a silver medal one. 😛
    But from my play-experience I wouldn’t say that they die especialy easily. And if they evolve I have gotten a T3 surprisingly often.
    Also, as said before, those hatchlings and flamers are a reason Draconians have little fear of early ghosts or phantasm warriors.

    #215031

    ExNihil
    Member

    Flamers are great, hatchlings could probably get something small IMO.

    #215032

    Zaskow
    Member

    Initiates and hatchlings erase the problem many classes have with lost souls, so they are a subtle use for some strategies (elf rogue).

    I think any class has no problems with lost souls if they have enough physical damage. Soul is killable by spearman, cheetah, prospector and guard. Only problematic unit is Untouchable and, maybe, Ice Scaper.

    Perhaps a diminshed form of the Fast Learner ability that gives these units extra 25% XP? This might balance their squishness and the way the AI uses them.

    I agree. This could be a way to fix this. Also you may notice that techs which let class irregular evolving (Exalted martyrs, Corrupted killers) always grant “Quick learner”.

    Also, as said before, those hatchlings and flamers are a reason Draconians have little fear of early ghosts or phantasm warriors.

    As for me, I want better utility for them against other empires, not only fright ghosts or phantasm warriors.

    #215042

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    IMO hatchlings are rather shite – always were, initiates are better though, primarily due to their shock damage which is pretty rare, and can thus be useful situationally.

    I value them higher. They clear better and also usually do better in most fights. At least the way I use them. Being able to use the ranged attack even if engaged is great.

    The units you can’t hurt with fire you can usually whack to pieces, but the ones resistant to shock may sometimes resist physical. And since Sorcerors are fairly popular I like my option with fire more.

    #215066

    Ericridge
    Member

    Hatchlings can be painful to be hit with. And annoyingly their spit fire can be used even when hatchling in question is engaged in melee. And you cannot retaliate against a bunch of babies that just spat on your face.

    No comment on initiates because I think they are perfect.

    #215075

    NINJEW
    Member

    Please no

    I could see a minor buff on Hatchlings but Initiates are already really good. You just don’t know, because you never build them, because Elf units are bullshit and the ones that aren’t Initiates are just even more bullshit

    #215082

    Zaskow
    Member

    Elf units are bullshit and the ones that aren’t Initiates are just even more bullshit

    I don’t want to rise old debate, but look at tournament. Elves are rarely seen comparing with dwarves, human, tigrans.

    I could see a minor buff on Hatchlings but Initiates are already really good.

    They suck against other racial irregulars and cost more.
    They can’t help much at clearing, coz die too often and fast.

    #215085

    Ericridge
    Member

    They suck against other racial irregulars and cost more.
    They can’t help much at clearing, coz die too often and fast.

    Their melee attack is dual channel of physical/shock.

    And they die as fast as any other irregular.

    Their ranged attack attack the resist stat not physical defense.

    Evolves into storm sisters which benefit from alot of racial governance upgrades.

    They are useful for clearing boneyard cuz their primary damage output is shock not physical.

    And they bring pain for undead roamers. Lost souls etc.

    #215086

    Zaskow
    Member

    Their melee attack is dual channel of physical/shock.

    So? Multichannel doesn’t cancel fact, that they’re weaker than other irregulars in direct combat.

    And they die as fast as any other irregular.

    They die fastest.

    Their ranged attack attack the resist stat not physical defense.

    So what? Irregulars with physical attack possess different very usable combat or strategic skills or upgrade through RG, which help them. Sprint, warcry, pounce, inflict freezing, 3-way range attack, Ensnare Net – have Initiates and Hatchings something comparable? No.

    Evolves into storm sisters which benefit from alot of racial governance upgrades.

    Evolving is very, very rarely seen. Especially in auto.

    #215173

    Buczer
    Member

    Their melee attack is dual channel of physical/shock.

    So? Multichannel doesn’t cancel fact, that they’re weaker than other irregulars in direct combat.

    And better in range combat. They target resisstance instead of defence -wich you discarded too easily IMO – and also have 40% shock protection. With better damage against rams and other units i would rather have innitiates on the walls than civic guard. Untill human unit gouvernance offcourse. Thats not unit’s fault that AI is dumb as f*** and frequently leaves the safe walls for absolutelly no reason.

    #215185

    Buczer
    Member

    Also, lack of any special trait is not a cripling weakness when unit is done well. Watch human cavalery, they are boring on paper, and yet they are backbone of human play since vanilla. And that’s pretty compliment, becouse in vanilla most of human roster was crap – priest excluded.

    #215189

    NINJEW
    Member

    So? Multichannel doesn’t cancel fact, that they’re weaker than other irregulars in direct combat.

    Multichannel makes them more powerful in direct combat dude, especially on a flanking unit like an irregular

    That’s kind of the whole point he was making, good job totally missing it

    So what? Irregulars with physical attack possess different very usable combat or strategic skills or upgrade through RG, which help them. Sprint, warcry, pounce, inflict freezing, 3-way range attack, Ensnare Net – have Initiates and Hatchings something comparable? No.

    It’s almost like initiates and Hatchlings are already good, even without those things…

    Did you know that irregulars can be used for more than just shitting out abilities? You can also use them as just plain old irregulars. It’s a pretty interesting way of playing the game, you should try it some time.

    #215197

    Zaskow
    Member

    Multichannel makes them more powerful in direct combat dude, especially on a flanking unit like an irregular

    Flanking? Only flanking could give them some chances. But what if no flanking here?
    Also you don’t know how effectively spearman or cheetah work in melee. Spearman and Untouchables (with RG) can do flanking even engaged, because sprint.

    Did you know that irregulars can be used for more than just shitting out abilities?

    Do you know that some irregulars could be more effective and less boring with different abilities? As it was done for Spearman, Civic guard, Untouchables.

    Elven and draco irregular also cost more for no reason.

    #215208

    ExNihil
    Member

    @zaskow,

    Multi channel is an increase in damage in most situations regardless of flanking, it depends on the unit being hit. The problem with hatchlings is that they don’t survive autocombat very well, and from your posts I think you play with irregulars as WL, and so they don’t receive any RG upgrades at all. Perhaps a sort of fast learner trait could be introduced on the Draconian RG 1 like humans get for cavalry units (25% xp extra) on rg3 which will make them a bit better. Anyhow, I don’t think the mass-evolve hatchling strategy is very viable, but it will make it at least a bit more so. OFC, one can argue that the flamers are the all-round best t1 draconian unit and that changing the RG1 is a nerf therefore.

    #215212

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Giving evolving units abilities with medals makes no sense, since they lose them upon evolving – except those they keep or get in a better version.

    The only ability that makes sense is indeed Quick Learning.
    They might gaín it with a medal.

    #215220

    ExNihil
    Member

    Giving evolving units abilities with medals makes no sense, since they lose them upon evolving – except those they keep or get in a better version.

    The only ability that makes sense is indeed Quick Learning.
    They might gaín it with a medal.

    Or that :).

    #215221

    Zaskow
    Member

    Multi channel is an increase in damage in most situations regardless of flanking, it depends on the unit being hit.

    Ok, example.
    Spearman against Initiate. Battlefield without obstacles, no morale penalties.
    Range attacks:
    Spearman = 10+(10-8)=12 dmg. He needs 3 attacks to kill Initiate (33 HP).
    Initiate = 10+(12-7)=15 dmg. He needs 3 attacks to kill Spearman (38 HP).
    So, we have draw here. Winner depends from who is defender/attacker.
    If spearman’s commander decides to use melee, situation for initiate is much worse.
    Melee attack of spearman (without warcry):
    Spearman = 10+(10-8)=12 dmg
    Melee attack of spearman (with warcry):
    Spearman = 10+(13-8)=15 dmg
    Melee attack of Initiate:
    Initiate (phys.) = 10+(4-8+2(shield))=4 dmg
    Initiate (shock) = 10+(4-7)=7 dmg
    11 dmg in summ.
    Spearman (38 HP) can kill Initiate (33 HP) in one melee salvo (even without warcry), while Initiate can’t.
    Multichannel won’t save them. Spearman even could make flanking much easier, just clicking Sprint.

    The only ability that makes sense is indeed Quick Learning.
    They might gaín it with a medal.

    As I suggested in first post.

    don’t know how it can be fixed (Quick Learner on veteran or through RG upgrades?)

    #215227

    NINJEW
    Member

    Flanking? Only flanking could give them some chances. But what if no flanking here?
    Also you don’t know how effectively spearman or cheetah work in melee. Spearman and Untouchables (with RG) can do flanking even engaged, because sprint.

    And Hatchlings can attack without repercussions while engaged, because Fire Spit can be used in melee.

    Furthermore, yeah the effectiveness of an irregular while Flanking is a big deal, they’re literally built to flank. A Spearman who uses Warcray and attacks a Flank gets a damage bonus of +5, for one turn. An Initiate who melees a flank will have a damage bonus of +4, every turn.

    #215235

    Ericridge
    Member

    What are you doing Zaskow, Why are you trying to punch melee centric race in the face with ranged centric race units? You will get your teeth knocked out if you do that. Lemme guess, rock beats paper in your own version of paper rock scissors.

    What you are supposed to do, you hit that orc spearmen from behind to open it up to flanking attacks from initiate. If spearmen is in defend mode, well duh then what are you doing? Hit it with ranged attacks.

    Not bravely charging up headon to stab them with tiny pointy daggers. That’s assassin’s job with assassin strike not initiate.

    #215246

    Zaskow
    Member

    And Hatchlings can attack without repercussions while engaged, because Fire Spit can be used in melee.

    So what will be after that? Warcry and crushing in melee or sprint and hit into ass with warcry or no.

    An Initiate who melees a flank will have a damage bonus of +4, every turn.

    You forgot that bonus from flanking applies only one time. Then attacked unit turns to attacker.

    What are you doing Zaskow

    Just to make things more balanced.
    Elven and draco irregulars aren’t stronger in battle, their cost is bigger, than analogs and they doesn’t gain any RG upgrades.

    #215248

    ExNihil
    Member

    So what will be after that? Warcry and crushing in melee or sprint and hit into ass with warcry or no.

    It depends on the situation m8. Hatchlings and Initiates are better at wall defense, Spearman are better field units for the most part, although in some circumstances and against some foes they are inferior. I don’t think there is a balance issue here but only a playstyle issue – I also don’t like these two units at all, but – on the other hand – I rarely like irregulars in any case (except the Cheetahs, which I love). If what you are looking for is a buff to make these units competitive in open battle with Spearman than I think you will not get your wishes – Spearman are intentionally buffed for irregulars to give Orcs an edge (this is a race that really needed this attention for a long while, and not it got it). If what you are looking for on the other hand is something to make these units more fun then lets see if we can come up with ideas that won’t break the game. Whatcha say?

    #215249

    NINJEW
    Member

    All Elf Units should naturally get Inflict Stun and also incorporeal

    #215349

    Zaskow
    Member

    Hatchlings and Initiates are better at wall defense

    Doubtfully. I showed in my previous post that Initiate and Spearman have same chances for win.
    The best irregular at wall defense is Adventurer, imao – Lesser damage (just -1 pt) of Human archer for 45 gold only. Also Untouchable have an elemental attack with debuff, which increases their damage further. Or Ice scaper with his chance to paralyze unit.

    If what you are looking for is a buff to make these units competitive in open battle with Spearman than I think you will not get your wishes – Spearman are intentionally buffed for irregulars to give Orcs an edge (this is a race that really needed this attention for a long while, and not it got it). If what you are looking for on the other hand is something to make these units more fun then lets see if we can come up with ideas that won’t break the game. Whatcha say?

    Second of course.
    I want for them something that could utilize their evolving ability better or more reliable. Or just some battle abilities, which can help them to be better. I don’t care if these abilities disappear after evolving.

    All Elf Units should naturally get Inflict Stun and also incorporeal

    Anything constructive or just dumb trolling?

    #215368

    Buczer
    Member

    Hatchlings and Initiates are better at wall defense

    Doubtfully. I showed in my previous post that Initiate and Spearman have same chances for win.

    Nope, you didnt. Innitiates inflict more range damage against most tier 1-2 unit becouse they target resistance. Not only that, orc javelins are almoust joke. Compere it to 12 shock damage of initiates.
    Also, adventurers and spearmen do laughable damage to rams. Its even worse with goblins – one race that will surelly let the walls be broken by rams are the early goblins. Both initiates and hatchlings are good against rams, also they target resistance, not the damage at range. Most of early units have highter defence than resistance. In the case of initiates it is undebatable – anything without high resistance will get hit harder than by single arrow or rock.

    #215380

    Zaskow
    Member

    Nope, you didnt. Innitiates inflict more range damage against most tier 1-2 unit becouse they target resistance. Not only that, orc javelins are almoust joke. Compere it to 12 shock damage of initiates.

    I suggest you to look carefully on my previous posts, especially this and then say that Initiates will kill Spearman in range combat. They have same chances to kill each other, because spearman’s higher HP.

    Also, adventurers and spearmen do laughable damage to rams. Its even worse with goblins – one race that will surelly let the walls be broken by rams are the early goblins.

    Besides that Ram is good thing against walls, it’s rarely seen in MP and AI doesn’t like to build them.

    #215387

    ExNihil
    Member

    I want for them something that could utilize their evolving ability better or more reliable. Or just some battle abilities, which can help them to be better. I don’t care if these abilities disappear after evolving.

    Well, I assume the best solution is to tweak the AI to use these units less as frontline units. Aside from that the Quick Learner idea you proposed seems like a good viable option – probably on a medal, at least for the Draconian. I don’t think the initiates really require anything TBH, but if something is to be done it shouldn’t effect their damage output directly IMO.

    Besides that Ram is good thing against walls, it’s rarely seen in MP and AI doesn’t like to build them.

    ams are an excellent anti-Goblin unit early on. In vanilla there was a game in which LCK killed two stacks of Goblin untouchables and swarm darters defending a walled city using four blessed shrines. It was one of the saddest battles I have seen.

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