Hatchings and Initiates…

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Hatchings and Initiates…

This topic contains 109 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 91 through 110 (of 110 total)
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  • #215926

    ephafn
    Member

    I have to say that I don’t think changing irregular is needed to improve balance. But I would agree that some of them could need some modifications to make them flavorful. For me, tier 3, supports and irregulars are where the races uniqueness should show up. Infantry, pikes and cavalry is fine with being somewhat more uniform. Thus, all 6 vanilla irregulars all being very similar (so-so at melee + single-shot ranged attack) is boring in my eyes. Comparison between them and the 3 DLC irregulars is pretty striking (3-shot ranged, melee only, and freezing).

    Going through the list:
    Human Civic Guard: quite boring by itself, but the net ability on RG + Volunteer is enough to give them personality.
    Orc Spearman: Orcish strength + shield + sprint. Nothing more needed.
    Goblin Untouchable: Disgusting stench + inflict ability. Probably the most different from the average of the vanilla irregular.
    Dwarf Prospector: Tunneling and Shatter Strike, Demolisher and Wall Crushing on medal. Yeah, pretty boring, but it fits with the Dwarf theme. But I really like the suggestion to make them melee only, and I would also put Wall Crushing on base instead, giving them an interesting role of being the poor man Ram (maybe they could get extra damage only against walls instead of Demolisher).
    High Elf Initiate: evolving. That’s pretty much it. I would give them Stunning Touch at Bronze medal, completing them as the poor man Storm Sisters.
    Draconian Hatchling: evolving. Again, that’s pretty meh. I would emphasize their evolving ability by giving them Fast Learner (+50%) and have them keep their Fire Spit when evolved. To balance it out, they should not be able to become Flyers anymore.

    #215929

    Buczer
    Member

    High Elf Initiate: evolving. That’s pretty much it. I would give them Stunning Touch at Bronze medal, completing them as the poor man Storm Sisters.

    ST is powerfull ability. IMO too powerfull for the regular. I would rather suggest giving them additional “support” status on champion gouvernance, giving them access to both support upgreades and true seeing.

    #215936

    ephafn
    Member

    ST is powerfull ability. IMO too powerfull for the regular. I would rather suggest giving them additional “support” status on champion gouvernance, giving them access to both support upgreades and true seeing.

    ST may be powerful, but the Frostling irregular gets to inflict Freezing on his ranged attack. Since that Freezing effect has 3 less power than ST (8 instead of 11) that means 15% less chance of working. And it is ranged and also deal damage.

    So an Initiate with ST on bronze medal would be very comparable to the Frostling Ice Scaper. Slightly more ranged damage and a slightly more reliable stunning ability, in exchange for having to choose between the damage and the stunning (and the stun will have a cooldown).

    #215939

    NINJEW
    Member

    The stun will also drain AP which is where everything kinda falls apart balancewise

    Congrats on creating a civic guard that can stun incorporeals and targets shock instead.

    #215947

    Fenraellis
    Member

    They compensate by don’t having a sustain buff

    Technically the only races which have sustain abilities(Orcs/Goblins/Draconians) also lack Healing abilities from Supports. Dwarves have a Healing ability on their Support, and also tend to take less damage anyway, so…

    #215955

    ExNihil
    Member

    ST is powerfull ability. IMO too powerfull for the regular. I would rather suggest giving them additional “support” status on champion gouvernance, giving them access to both support upgreades and true seeing.

    That’s insane, no offense but think what will happen with Sorcerer with school of enchantment/teleportation or with heal. If stunning touch is too powerful for a regular, what are these?

    High Elf Initiate: evolving. That’s pretty much it. I would give them Stunning Touch at Bronze medal, completing them as the poor man Storm Sisters.

    That is indeed too powerful. Also, you don’t need a poor man’s Storm Sisters – as long as evolve is there the Initiate *will* become a Storm Sister if it evolves.

    Draconian Hatchling: evolving. Again, that’s pretty meh. I would emphasize their evolving ability by giving them Fast Learner (+50%) and have them keep their Fire Spit when evolved. To balance it out, they should not be able to become Flyers anymore.

    Fast Learner is too powerful, there could be a 25% bonus rather than 50%. I also dislike the idea of removing the t3 flyer from the list of possibilities, this is the only cool thing about this evolve right now (the other units really don’t justify the effort.) I see too options, either go with a lesser learning perk, possibly with the fire spit intact, or to simply remove the randomness and make it so hatchlings become flyers 100% of the time.

    #215967

    Buczer
    Member

    ST is powerfull ability. IMO too powerfull for the regular. I would rather suggest giving them additional “support” status on champion gouvernance, giving them access to both support upgreades and true seeing.

    That’s insane, no offense but think what will happen with Sorcerer with school of enchantment/teleportation or with heal. If stunning touch is too powerful for a regular, what are these?

    You are right, i didnt thouth up this well initially. Soon i found the idea stupid by myself and i expected that someone will riddicule it. Anyway i’m for using racial gouvernance as buff tool (at last at champion), not simple buff. If any, becouse i find the unit reliable…offcourse HE are not main race (gobs and hummies are), so my point of view might be wrong.

    #216041

    Zaskow
    Member

    Dwarf Prospector: Tunneling and Shatter Strike, Demolisher and Wall Crushing on medal. Yeah, pretty boring, but it fits with the Dwarf theme. But I really like the suggestion to make them melee only, and I would also put Wall Crushing on base instead, giving them an interesting role of being the poor man Ram (maybe they could get extra damage only against walls instead of Demolisher).

    Shatter strike is very, very rarely usable.

    High Elf Initiate: evolving. That’s pretty much it. I would give them Stunning Touch at Bronze medal, completing them as the poor man Storm Sisters.

    Draconian Hatchling: evolving. Again, that’s pretty meh. I would emphasize their evolving ability by giving them Fast Learner (+50%) and have them keep their Fire Spit when evolved. To balance it out, they should not be able to become Flyers anymore.

    Good ideas.

    ST is powerfull ability.

    You overestimate this ability. Most times you’ll waste turn of your unit only for -50% to enemy movements. It works reliable only on T1/T2.

    That is indeed too powerful. Also, you don’t need a poor man’s Storm Sisters – as long as evolve is there the Initiate *will* become a Storm Sister if it evolves.

    Stunning touch will increase possibility of evolving of Initiates into Storm sisters.

    Fast Learner is too powerful, there could be a 25% bonus rather than 50%. I also dislike the idea of removing the t3 flyer from the list of possibilities, this is the only cool thing about this evolve right now (the other units really don’t justify the effort.) I see too options, either go with a lesser learning perk, possibly with the fire spit intact, or to simply remove the randomness and make it so hatchlings become flyers 100% of the time.

    It’s powerful only from beginning. It would be nice on veteran or through RG upgrade.

    #216094

    Hatmage
    Member

    Shatter strike is very, very rarely usable.

    It’s also very powerful wherever it applies. If I’m not mistaken it’s +5 damage, in a game where that is otherwise reserved for polearms attacking cavalry. It’s enough damage to make a fight between a tier 1 and tier two unit one sided in the t1’s favour if it applies.

    ST is powerfull ability.

    You overestimate this ability. Most times you’ll waste turn of your unit only for -50% to enemy movements. It works reliable only on T1/T2.

    This is equally true of throw net, which is still considered powerful enough to be governance-only, cannot affect incorporeal targets and is more readily resisted by most units. Without these restrictions, stunning touch on an irregular would be nauseatingly overpowered. And the irregular you propose putting it on is already powerful, having access to one of the least resisted damage types in the game. And doing more ranged damage than other irregulars. “Shock channel crossbowman that evolves” is already a unique and powerful niche, not just among irregulars, but among all missile troops.

    #216097

    ExNihil
    Member

    Technically the only races which have sustain abilities(Orcs/Goblins/Draconians) also lack Healing abilities from Supports. Dwarves have a Healing ability on their Support, and also tend to take less damage anyway, so…

    Answered you in another thread, maybe I’m wrong but HE don’t get anything at all.

    #216098

    ExNihil
    Member

    It’s also very powerful wherever it applies. If I’m not mistaken it’s +5 damage, in a game where that is otherwise reserved for polearms attacking cavalry. It’s enough damage to make a fight between a tier 1 and tier two unit one sided in the t1’s favour if it applies.

    But this works only against Frozen and Petrified – two things Dwarves cannot do at all, the comparison with polearm is therefore false. It is really only a counter here to Stone Skin, but to balance an irregular against an earth sphere adept spell is sorta weak IMO.

    #216106

    NINJEW
    Member

    You overestimate this ability. Most times you’ll waste turn of your unit only for -50% to enemy movements. It works reliable only on T1/T2.

    In what world is using a turn of your cheapest unit to take away half of a T3’s turn without getting hurt not ridiculously good

    It’s kind of what’s really good about Civic Guard

    #216109

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Technically the only races which have sustain abilities(Orcs/Goblins/Draconians) also lack Healing abilities from Supports. Dwarves have a Healing ability on their Support, and also tend to take less damage anyway, so…

    Answered you in another thread, maybe I’m wrong but HE don’t get anything at all.

    Perhaps my wording wasn’t as clear as I meant it to be, and perhaps I should have appended a message about Elves, Tigrans and Frostlings(Ranged power, CC-power and Offensive/Mobility power, respectively, being forms of damage mitigation).
    That being said, what I meant was that the races which DO have sustain abilities do NOT also have sustain from their Supports(which the Dwarves do have).

    #216145

    Zaskow
    Member

    It’s also very powerful wherever it applies. If I’m not mistaken it’s +5 damage, in a game where that is otherwise reserved for polearms attacking cavalry. It’s enough damage to make a fight between a tier 1 and tier two unit one sided in the t1’s favour if it applies.

    What the sense in bonus that almost never applied?

    Answered you in another thread, maybe I’m wrong but HE don’t get anything at all.

    Same goes for Frostlings and Tigrans too, but I think this races are stronger overall.

    In what world is using a turn of your cheapest unit to take away half of a T3’s turn without getting hurt not ridiculously good

    Yep, especially when this t3 gets freekill from attacking of your irregular.
    Stunning touch was suggested to be obtain on veteran. Do you really think that all Initiates survive to veteran? Also this change is logical from lore reasons. Initiates become more experienced and get one ability of Storm sister as reward.

    #216154

    NEHZ
    Member

    Rogues can get t1 irregulers produced at veteran level. If stunning touch fails against a t3 unit, it will only be able to hit twice. More importantly, 2 units with stunning touch can drain out any unit for a full turn, giving them no oppertunity to strike. This means that for the remainder of the turn the unit can’t retaliate and it won’t perform any action during it’s own next turn, not even guard. If one of your checks succeed, it’ll be even worse. This even works against t4.
    Also: I’ve used the evolve on initiates in PBEM to great effect. Sure, not all of them will evolve, but enough will for it to matter.

    #216158

    Zaskow
    Member

    Rogues can get t1 irregulers produced at veteran level.

    Cool. It will be more reasons to choose HE for Rogue.

    #216202

    ExNihil
    Member

    I am against stunning touch – it doesn’t fit IMO, its a bit too strong and it just regurgitates what Storm Sisters have. I would much rather see Inflict Shocking, which will introduce here mechanics somewhat similar to frostling. Optimally I would like Initates to stop evolving and to receive Inflict Shocking on baseline and meditate on gold medal.

    #216204

    Zaskow
    Member

    Optimally I would like Initates to stop evolving and to receive Inflict Shocking on baseline and meditate on gold medal.

    Endless Initiates look weird. Shocking is good, but not very late.

    #216213

    Gloweye
    Member

    Rogues can get t1 irregulers produced at veteran level.

    Cool. It will be more reasons to choose HE for Rogue.

    Actually, Rogue can build them at Expert medal – but it requires T3 class building, T3 military building and the tech. But by the time you have the first two in a city, you’re not gonna bother with Initiates…

    #216224

    Zaskow
    Member

    Actually, Rogue can build them at Expert medal – but it requires T3 class building, T3 military building and the tech. But by the time you have the first two in a city, you’re not gonna bother with Initiates…

    Yep. Recruiting of evolving units with high medal doesn’t worth expenses at mid- late-game.

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