High Elf Mounted Archer – Thoughts?

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance High Elf Mounted Archer – Thoughts?

This topic contains 48 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Gyor 7 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #174953

    Hey

    I was just wondering what you guys think about the high elf mounted archer.

    Personally I think that giving them a longbow is excessive as it is basically a tanky archer (85 HP with Global Assault and Mounts) with alot of movement points. Added to that, they have no ranged penalty. I feel that this makes them far superior to all other mounted archers and It makes the game considerably easier when I am using them.

    I do not think they are uncountrable, but I feel that a tier 2 archer with that amount of damage potential (it is common to see 15 + 15 + 15 at maximum range) is a bit much when considering that they also have such good stats and are also quite spammable.

    Adding to this, the warlord is already very effective in melee, arguably highly challenging to defeat in straight up melee combat. Overall I think that Elven mounted archers not having a ranged penalty is overkill considering that the mounted archer itself is already a decently tanky archer unit.

    Therefore I would like to see your opinion on this, I could be over exaggerating but I really do think it makes all of the other Mounted archers pale in comparison and they are pretty frustrating to deal with when playing something like an Archruid, which already has to contend with the Warlord’s very tough melee forces.

    #174963

    Astraflame
    Member

    Well they’re elves and longbow is their speciality, i don’t want to see this changed but i have to admit this unit have been OP ever since they buffed mounted archers. It’s really more like a t2 5- t3 unit even with focus chambers. A cost increase could be given.

    #174970

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I don’t agree with the OP; Warlords do need some units that stand out, and this is one of them.

    Well they’re elves and longbow is their speciality, i don’t want to see this changed but i have to admit this unit have been OP ever since they buffed mounted archers. It’s really more like a t2 5- t3 unit even with focus chambers. A cost increase could be given.

    What’s the point of factoring in a magical site upgrade that is so rare? Heck, a lot of stuff is “OP” with magical site upgrades – for instance, just about every Support unit from the Forbidden Sanctum upgrade. And they are arguably more common across the map, and the enhanced units far more “OP” than FOcus Chamber-enhanced units.

    A cost increase is fine though.

    #174972

    I think classifying them as Tier 3 would be fine (cost increase ofc). They are just flat out better than all of the other Racial variants, and that is w/o any form of building buff.

    #174973

    Astraflame
    Member

    The OP part is without focus chambers, but elf mounted archer is OP as hell whenever they have it, i’d say the same about elf hunters but mounted archers are godly fully upgraded, atm i can’t think of anything as good for its tier.

    #174976

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I think classifying them as Tier 3 would be fine (cost increase ofc). They are just flat out better than all of the other Racial variants, and that is w/o any form of building buff.

    No way.

    It’s something like a base 50 HP unit. If you have an issue with its durability, then the problem is the mounted unit Empire Upgrade (and the later Warlord ultimate spell), not the unit in itself. But if the problem is the latter, then the issue exists with many Warlord mounted units. For instance, the Orc T2 cavalry is quite devastating as a Warlord with all the upgrades you mentioned.

    #174985

    Astraflame
    Member

    Elf mounted archer is far better than any racial T2 cavalry though, different unit type but still. We’re talking of a ranged unit with 36mp+ sprint later martial arts. No range penalty and 11 damage at base. Stacks of them can defeat anything regardless of tier as long as they’re not phys protected. Anyways i think a cost increase could be worth considering, longbow should definately stay though.

    #174988

    I have discussed this with a friend, and he said that they should not benefit from the Mounts upgrade. This would be one way of balancing it.

    But in reality, this upgrade is so frequently used (pretty much always) that I do not really consider the base HP, only the post upgraded HP. Also Global assault is almost always used which further increases their power. (Elite ranking)

    I think No ranged penalty is extremely powerful considering that ALL of the other mounted archers have to get much closer to do decent damage. And that high HP actually comes into play as unlike most archers, they can soak up some of that punishment.

    Yes some have useful traits such as Blessed arrows for Humans or Orc bleeding. However I just cannot bring myself to say that they are equal or similar in power.

    So basically you have an;
    85HP Unit with decent defence/res
    Deals very high damage if they fire 3 times at any range.
    Can destroy most units easily at range with the exception of Machines and Undead
    Are incredibly annoying to deal with in sieges without the use of Aoe attacks or the Horned God’s Lightning/stun spell.
    Tier 2, and as such spammable

    Compared to the something like the Human archer, Elf archers have a much lower chance to get damaged due to that longbow.

    I think the purpose of the mounted archer was to have a tanky range unit to support the warlord’s strong melee forces. This unit would be v mobile (36 points + Sprint) which would make it different to other archers. No ranged penalty just encourages a stationary play style, which seems counter-intuitive to their idea.

    #174990

    Zaskow
    Member

    Personally I would not count Global Assault as important factor. What is the sense in Top-tier class spell, when it doesn’t give some OPness to your units?
    However, it’s pretty easy to balance. Let’s take a look.
    Actually we have same case with another unit – bard. High elf bards are more expensive – +20 gold, +10 mana. Elf mounted archers get only +10 gold to their price for longbows. I think decision is obvious.

    #174993

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I have discussed this with a friend, and he said that they should not benefit from the Mounts upgrade. This would be one way of balancing it.

    It’s too discriminatory with no lore reasons.

    But in reality, this upgrade is so frequently used (pretty much always) that I do not really consider the base HP, only the post upgraded HP. Also Global assault is almost always used which further increases their power.

    I am sorry, but again, this is a ridiculous claim. It looks like you play mainly MP games: So are you saying that MP games “almost always” last until ultimate spells are researched?

    Moreover, yet again: Global Assault makes a lot of things seemingly OP – as does a lot of other ultimate spells.

    I think No ranged penalty is extremely powerful considering that ALL of the other mounted archers have to get much closer to do decent damage. And that high HP actually comes into play as unlike most archers, they can soak up some of that punishment.

    Yes some have useful traits such as Blessed arrows for Humans or Orc bleeding. However I just cannot bring myself to say that they are equal or similar in power.

    In some contexts, Blessed Arrows are almost as equally good.

    So basically you have an;<br>
    85HP Unit with decent defence/res<br>

    No, you do NOT.

    You simply cannot claim that Mounted Archers “basically” have 85 HPs – any more than Orc T2 Cavalry “basically” has 95 HPs. It’s a faulty, specious logic.

    Personally I would not count Global Assault as important factor. What is the sense in Top-tier class spell, when it doesn’t give some OPness to your units?<br>

    No, shit. It’s a deceptive move to stack the deck.

    However, it’s pretty easy to balance. Let’s take a look.<br>
    Actually we have same case with another unit – bard. High elf bards are more expensive – +20 gold, +10 mana. Elf mounted archers get only +10 gold to their price for longbows. I think decision is obvious.

    Agreed.

    #174994

    Even w/o it I consider them way better than their Racial counter-parts. 65HP is pretty high. On the note of superspells make your unit’s op, I don’t really agree with that idea but that’s a bit off topic.

    I am in favour of simply making them more expensive. +10 gold for a unit which feels like a tier above the other variatns is way to lenient.

    Considering the Bard feels much less powerful head on than a mounted archer and there is a much higher difference there. Ofc these also have Bard skills + Charm and as such feel nothing like a mounted archer.

    Still I think a similar or more severe treatment would be ideal for Elven Mounted archers, mainly to avoid their spam.

    #174995

    @epaminondas

    I am talking about balancing. I like lore but not when it has a negative impact on game balance. With that argument, at least visually, elven mounted archers (much like real world Mongolian archers which they are inspired by) appear to have recurve bows, which makes much more sense in the real world. Ofc as I said I do not care about this

    I play mostly mp games with one person. Our games always last for several hours and as such we finish over 2 or 3 days. We always play large maps. I am not sure if there is a standard in multiplayer game length. I should also mention that we never do auto battles against each other

    I do not agree that blessed arrows are equally good, they cannot fire from the range that an elven archer can. Yea they can be powerful against Undead, but situational, unlike the all rounder Elven variant.

    Yes orcs have 10 more hp, but that is not as significant as having 85hp with little need to move closer to an enemy, particularly one which can be powerful in melee. Perhaps if they had 105 or more hp that would be more up to par with the elven one. Not really sure what you mean with the faulty logic comment. Elven archer elite with Mounts always has 85hp w/o additional buffs.

    #174996

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    The High Elf Bard goes from crossbow to longbow, not from bow to longbow. Cost of High Elf Mounted Archers could be higher but not on the basis of Thoroughbred Mounts, Focus Chamber or Global Assault.
    And let’s not forget other Mounted Archers are also great already. The cost difference should be a representation of the difference in strength.

    #174998

    he cost difference should be a representation of the difference in strength.

    Yea I completely agree. If the elven mounted archer was to have a cost increase, I would be very happy 😀

    Also I may have overstated things, I do not think other mounted archers are useless. I just think that having a damage soaking archer with no ranged penalty just makes the other archers feel a Tier lower.

    Alternatively why not go milder but still unique like the other races

    E.G, Give them a ranged penalty but give them an extra damage channel, probably electric since they are elves. This can make them slightly more effective vs machine units or high def units in general.

    #175000

    Astraflame
    Member

    So we all agree a cost increase is right, let’s see if Mr Tombles can do something about it.

    #175002

    Astraflame
    Member

    The High Elf Bard goes from crossbow to longbow, not from bow to longbow. Cost of High Elf Mounted Archers could be higher but not on the basis of Thoroughbred Mounts, Focus Chamber or Global Assault.<br>
    And let’s not forget other Mounted Archers are also great already. The cost difference should be a representation of the difference in strength.

    I agree all mounted archers are great, still the elf is in a league of its own. One can’t deny how insane this unit can scale and just at base it’s still IMO the best combat T2 unit in the game. It should stand to reason that a cost increase is preferable.

    #175008

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    You can either make them cost a little more than they do now, or make them a little bit more squishy; High Elf Longbowmen are also 10 gold more expensive than their Human equivalent but have lower HP and def stats. I do agree the High Elf Mounted Archers maybe are a little too powerful for their price so a slight price increase might be in order.

    On the other hand, they already cost more. I mean, I also find Tireless on Orc Crusaders to be worth more than the amount they go for. Some thing are just better than others. The High Elf Mounted Archers shouldn’t be nerfed until they are on par with their equivalents.

    #175023

    Epaminondas
    Member

    On the other hand, they already cost more. I mean, I also find Tireless on Orc Crusaders to be worth more than the amount they go for. Some thing are just better than others. The High Elf Mounted Archers shouldn’t be nerfed until they are on par with their equivalents.

    Yes, Tireless on Orc Crusader is arguably more OP than the Warlord Elven Mounted Archer in the hands of a skilled player. Once again, I just felt that singling out the Elf Mounted Archer was strange, especially its power is ultimately derived from a series of class spells that apply to all like units.

    Also I may have overstated things…

    I think this is the main reason I reacted a bit harshly. Rhetorically speaking, it’s just better to let plain facts speak themselves rather than embellishing things to make your point stronger. Usually, exaggerating for effect actually does more damage to your credibility than helps your case. Of course, I am at times guilty of the same sin, so I can’t hold it against you overmuch, lest I be accused of hypocrisy.

    I play mostly mp games with one person. Our games always last for several hours and as such we finish over 2 or 3 days. We always play large maps. I am not sure if there is a standard in multiplayer game length.

    This explains a lot of your issues; you essentially play the same type of games I do, except I play SP. Basically, the devs and beta testers have repeatedly stressed that this game is not balanced for longer, larger map games. Instead, it appears to be balanced mainly for shorter, blitz-style MP games, and I have expressed my dissatisfaction at that particular orientation many times. And Elven Mounted Archer is hardly the worst example of un-balanced late game spells/units. The interaction between larger availabile mana pool and “OP” spells are far worse, for instance. To testify from personal experiences, I’ve eaten 3-4 Hellfires in repeated battles v. the AI; I’ve also taken 8 Disintegrates in one battle. These things are absolutely crazy – without having to spell them out why.

    Do I like how the game is balanced toward shorter, MP games? Absolutely not; and I moan about it tirelessly, and the devs and beta testers tirelessly tell me that the game cannot be balanced for my minority style. And while I disagree that I am in such a minority (I suspect the majority of “silent” players actually play longer, larger map games), it’s an answer that you and I both ultimately have to accept, because that’s what the devs and the most vocal, influential players claim.

    #175071

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I know that I already mentioned this(as a concept) in another recent thread, but Epaminondas, don’t resort to such hyperbole. It doesn’t become you.

    The game has explicitly shifted to being slower paced across almost all of the major patch cycles. Quite a bit so, in fact. No, it has not shifted balance far enough to meet your preferred pace, true, but don’t try to distort the facts to meet your own supposition either.

    That being said, yes, the game can be played on Extra Large maps, but it is warned that doing so can particularly stretch the game’s mechanics and balance. Large maps are generally fine, although it certainly depends on the individual. Medium and Small maps are obviously fine, although again, it can depend on the individual.

    Then again, I fully admit the difference in our own personal definitions of “short” and “long” most certainly differs.

    #175072

    Astraflame
    Member

    Yes, Tireless on Orc Crusader is arguably more OP than the Warlord Elven Mounted Archer in the hands of a skilled player.

    You should probably add a IMO to that, orc crusaders while powerful do not IMO compare to Elven mounted archers in relative strength and do not have the same mean upgrade potential, other crusader units are closer to it in strenght than the mounted archers of other races are to the elf.

    Since the Elf is ranged in battle and cavalry fast/plenty of mobility on the strat map(Forestry) would have a higher skill treshold than a slow walking melee unit. I have to disagree.

    #175079

    llfoso
    Member

    This isn’t a balance thing, but horse archers with longbows has always bothered me. It’s impossible to use a longbow from the back of a horse; you can’t pull the bow back far enough. They could be on unicorns and have phase instead. That would also be cool.

    #175083

    High Elf Mounted archers will almost certainly increase in cost, if only to offset the race governance upgrades. Ultimately, a Diety High Elf player can have seeker archers cumulatively with all the bonuses (+1 physical and shock racial, no ranged fall off for longbows/arcane arrows, and the ultimate military upgrade that removes line of sight penalties).

    Also arcane arrows, which is +2 physical, +6 shock (separate attack) that also becomes seeker with the military deity upgrade.

    #175084

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I know that I already mentioned this(as a concept) in another recent thread, but Epaminondas, don’t resort to such hyperbole. It doesn’t become you.

    The game has explicitly shifted to being slower paced across almost all of the major patch cycles. Quite a bit so, in fact. No, it has not shifted balance far enough to meet your preferred pace, true, but don’t try to distort the facts to meet your own supposition either.

    I think your charge that I am being hyperbolic itself is hyperbolic for many reasons.

    First, most obviously, I am repeating what the devs have said multiple times – almost verbatim. There is no real personal spin to the issue that you detect.

    Second, I have also acknowledged in many places that the devs have improved the product immeasurably, and part of that improvement is precisely the accommodation of players who prefer a slower-paced game. So in some sense you are taking my post outside of that context and inveighing against a straw man (albeit perhaps an understandable straw man, given some of my more testier prior exchanges with the devs and beta testers). Simply put, the demands of space and time (in conjunction with my lack of perfect fluency in English) necessitate that I cannot qualify everything I say with “but on the other hands” and acknowledge that the devs have tried to meet my concerns in every post.

    Third, relatedly, look, my post was written fundamentally to moderate the OP’s demands for changes that I do not believe will occur, rather than to complain about the devs. I know it may not have come out that way – especially if you have a certain preconception of my views on these things – but it really wasn’t intended to question the devs but to clarify why I think some of his demands simply won’t ever be fulfilled, so he won’t waste people’s time or drive himself to frustration – like I did.

    Really, it’s terribly easy to misinterpret another’s writings – especially in the context of online forum, where people do not take the same care to write or read as they do in “real-life.” The problem is compounded when you are dealing with the writings of someone who learned English in later age and someone who finds learning languages painful.

    So please bear all this in mind; not every facially neutral statement I make is a veiled criticism of the devs.

    That being said, yes, the game can be played on Extra Large maps, but it is warned that doing so can particularly stretch the game’s mechanics and balance. Large maps are generally fine, although it certainly depends on the individual. Medium and Small maps are obviously fine, although again, it can depend on the individual.

    So after charging me with being hyperbolic and biased and what not, you essentially concede what I just said.

    You should probably add a IMO to that, orc crusaders while powerful do not IMO compare to Elven mounted archers in relative strength and do not have the same mean upgrade potential, other crusader units are closer to it in strenght than the mounted archers of other races are to the elf.

    This is even more ridiculously nit-picky than what Fen wrote. I qualified my claim with “arguably” – which certainly highlights my own uncertainty and acknowledgment that it is a tentative personal opinion. In my opinion, it conveys that even more than “IMO.”

    #175090

    Ericridge
    Member

    How well can High elven mounted archers do against dreadnought machine armies? If its extremely efficient against them too, then it is worth another look at the unit.

    If not, then it’s like the Flame tanks of Dreadnought.

    Super effective against certain tier of enemies, and simply mediocre/downright terrible against other tier of enemies.

    And High Elves is known for their archery, they will make you submit to their ranged overlords one way or other!

    With this out of the way, today I recently had bunch of recruit human archers brought into quite a high level battle and they managed to blow up three flame tanks that my stronger units failed to kill XD Sure they was at 3 hp and below, but hey. its better that than other flametorcher.

    #175091

    Astraflame
    Member

    Also arcane arrows, which is +2 physical, +6 shock (separate attack) that also becomes seeker with the military deity upgrade.

    Hmm?

    This is even more ridiculously nit-picky than what Fen wrote. I qualified my claim with “arguably” – which certainly highlights my own uncertainty and acknowledgment that it is a tentative personal opinion. In my opinion, it conveys that even more than “IMO.”

    You’re right.

    #175092

    chrysophylax páuperem wrote:
    Also arcane arrows, which is +2 physical, +6 shock (separate attack) that also becomes seeker with the military deity upgrade.
    Hmm?

    As I said in another thread, it is a whole new ability rather than just a straight damage boost. three shot, mostly shock damage.

    #175093

    Epaminondas
    Member

    As I said in another thread, it is a whole new ability rather than just a straight damage boost. three shot, mostly shock damage.

    Hmmm, so you lose the benefits of a longbow when you use Arcane Arrows?

    Edit:
    Never mind; I found that response of yours.

    #175097

    Astraflame
    Member

    That’s better then… i’ll say no more until i get the chance to try it.

    #175099

    Fenraellis
    Member

    *already found the answer yourself, so… never mind*

    #175100

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>chrysophylax páuperem wrote:</div>
    As I said in another thread, it is a whole new ability rather than just a straight damage boost. three shot, mostly shock damage.

    Hmmm, so you lose the benefits of a longbow when you use Arcane Arrows?

    sort of. It has no ranged penalties, so the 3/7 (a little more if you have an upgraded archer or a focus chamber) is applied directly to the enemy, but with the downside of a lower attack strength for both values.

    It is actually pretty well balanced as is for most things: you generally get very similar damage totals fighting both high and low tier units (since horse archers just do so much default ranged damage that they can do fine without shock damage).

    It is when you have machines, incorporeal, and low resistance units that it starts to shine.

    Indeed, the ability is more useful for hunters: since they don’t deal quite as much raw physical damage, they tend to do a little better with arcane arrows over their normal fire in most situations.

    Musketeers benefit most of all: this lets them shoot things without reloading/engineer support. And they just got forest concealment for the total commando package.

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