How many races you need to be happy?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions How many races you need to be happy?

This topic contains 53 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  Avalisc 8 years ago.

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  • #95182

    Kubera
    Member

    The question is – what threshold how much of your races amount can be get, and then add each new race will cease to be a great holiday (little does not happen)?

    We have 6 races.

    candidates №1:

    Frostlings
    Tigrans
    Lizardmens

    Due to the resurrection of the old races, you can get 9

    candidates №2:

    Halflings (said in an interview that they will not be)
    Syron (Shadow World)
    Shadow demons (Shadow World + alignment problems)

    Due to the returned taboo of the old races, you can get 12

    candidates №3:

    ???

    Nomads – are more suitable for the class (citys ​​capable to carry from place to place)

    #95190

    Which interview was that about Haflings?

    #95201

    6 core races is fine. I want more dwellings.

    #95213

    Garresh
    Member

    Just 1: Frostlings.
    I didn’t play as *any* of the races in 3 back in shadow magic, so while I love the classes and think they did a good job on each race, I still feel a bit like I got kicked out of my home cause my staple races aren’t here. Frostlings are my main, but Tigrans and Stroke Syrons would be good too.

    Edit:I’m going to murder my autocorrect.

    #95252

    Kubera
    Member

    Which interview was that about Haflings?

    [Ham:] And the Halflings? I assume that in AoWIII the Halflings are a force to be reckoned with.

    [Ray:] You do realize you’re not a typical Halfling, right? Most Halflings really don’t go to war.

    [Ham:] We just need a really good cause, like um… a massive feast, or warriors made out of cookie dough. Then we’d fight…Okay fine, as long as I get a little private time with Queen Julia, and my Halflings aren’t massacred needlessly for a plot-point, I suppose I’ll be content.

    [Ray:] Um… yeah, about that…

    [Ham:] I DO get a little private time with the immortal Queen Julia, right?

    [Ray:] Well. Not really?

    [Ray:] Well, first… You should know the Halflings are my very favorite.

    [Ham:] The Halflings do have a major role, right?

    [Ray:] More like NO role.

    [Ham:] No role? Wait? How will players know of all the heroically silly things we Halflings do if they aren’t in a starring role?

    [Ray:] At least I vetoed the idea of having the Halflings massacred. But yeah, there’s currently no playable Halfling race anymore. I’ve been reassured this won’t be a permanent solution… but um… no, as much as I would love to, I really can’t make the story about the Halflings.

    [Ham:] … You are dead to me …

    [Ray:] At this point in history, your people were well assimilated into the Commonwealth and Elven Court, and you really have no beef with anybody, so you didn’t go to war like some of the other races. See? Isn’t that nice? You’re not a racist race! SO be grateful.

    [Ham:] Where’s my Mace of Holy Smiting?

    [Ray:] Hey now, remember, Halflings are peace-loving.
    The new campaign and story descriptions

    [Ham:] So who’s going to be the hero? Sounds like the world’s full of troubles, but what about the heroes?

    [Ray:] Well Julia had two children. A son and a daughter. The son is a great Prince, who is everything you’d think a son of Julia might be, while the daughter is clever and tired of the political games of the Court. You can probably guess which one ends up taking the starring role in the Campaign. These two siblings start the initial campaign for the Elven Court side of things. On the other side, you play an idyllic young officer from the Commonwealth. He grew up believing in the way the Commonwealth should be, rather than seeing how it really is. The two sides come into conflict and there are points where the player gets to decide how to solve that conflict. There’s a whole host of great supporting characters as well.

    [Ham:] None of whom are Halflings.

    [Ray:] No worries, Ham. You’re still featured in the game—or at least your writings are.

    [Ham:] My writings? You mean all those books I wrote while exploring the world?

    [Ray:] Right. It’s actually quite cool. Instead of how we’ve done it in the past, the Heroes and Units in AoWIII don’t have typical descriptions. Instead, I searched through the libraries on Athla. For the Unicorn, for example, I found a song written by that master Bard, Willa Loveday. I found a snippet of writing from a Wyvern breeder, Katie Handler, who wrote about her Wyvern that forms its description. And who can forget your expedition to the deserts of Kesh written in the book “Where’s Symba?”, in which we discover that the Tigrans left behind empty ruins and only the Beholders remained behind.

    [Ham:] So you copied an assortment of ancient tomes instead of writing it from scratch? Wow. Life’s rough for you as a writer. Where’s my royalty check?

    [Ray:] Just think, a whole world of people gets to read of your adventures. They’re great fun. Just one more way that AoWIII is one massive story. And I think that’s pretty cool.

    [Ham:] I guess that’s cool. Most of my writing was intended as a last will and testament to my posterity, in case they ever find my body, hopefully they’ll know how I meet my final doom. I’m quite surprised it hasn’t happened yet.

    http://ageofwonders.com/dev-journal-what-happened-after-shadow-magic-story-part-ii/

    #95263

    razzafazza
    Member

    regarding new races (in an expansion – i doubt we ll get full races as DLC ) i personally am for quality over quantity.

    i didnt think AOW2:SMs many races were a strenght – i d rather have less races in total but those having more depth/diversity.

    my “wish” expansion would not just add a bunch of new races or classes but also provide new content for the existing races & classes. like 1 new racial unit each and a bunch of new spells/abilities/buildings/research projects for the old classes.

    with that (and the developers having no endless budget) in mind i d be okay with “just” 2 new races and 1 new class (to stay realistic)

    as for what those new races could be ? against the trend here on the forum i want actually new races and not old races brought back. a good compromise would however be 1 really new race and 1 old race brought back. in addition to that some other old races could be partly brought back as dwellings.

    it of course boils all down to individual tastes and preferences. mine would be:

    new race: something fresh that hasnt been used a hundred times in other fantasy games (like halflings, darkelves, etc. have). its hard to be completely original of course but i d love something insectoid like those 4-armed insects in DnDs Dark Sun. granted insectoid races arent completely original either ( klackons in MoM/MoO, zerg in starcraft etc. etc. ) but i personally d find stuff like mantis-cavalry far more interesting than halfling pony riders.

    …..but i m also open for anything else that isnt 08/15 fantasy cliche like (sorry to all fans of these races) halflings, half/dark/wood-elves, etc. would be.

    old race: the only old AOW race i personally would find interesting as a full race would be lizardmen. maybe tigrans 2nd. everything else i would love to see as a dwelling but not as full race.

    no offense to anyone who wants as many old races as possible back or loves halflings, darkelves etc. to each their own – those are just my preferences.

    #95277

    @ Kubera, that doesn’t say Haflings will never come back, it just said that in the initial AoW3 release, Haflings wouldn’t be a playable race, which we knew already.

    new race: something fresh that hasnt been used a hundred times in other fantasy games (like halflings, darkelves, etc. have). its hard to be completely original of course but i d love something insectoid like those 4-armed insects in DnDs Dark Sun. granted insectoid races arent completely original either ( klackons in MoM/MoO, zerg in starcraft etc. etc. ) but i personally d find stuff like mantis-cavalry far more interesting than halfling pony riders.

    Shadow Demons. Done.

    #95279

    Kubera
    Member

    that doesn’t say Haflings will never come back, it just said that in the initial AoW3 release, Haflings wouldn’t be a playable race, which we knew already.

    Isn’t that nice? You’re not a racist race! SO be grateful.

    I took to heart the truth of this light. So the racist halflings possible o_o

    #95280

    Rabiator
    Member

    To be “happy” I do not need “more races” but rather “better races” instead. The way it is now the race doesnt matter and the class defines everything. Even if you are a High Elf you wont build archers if you play as a sorcerer, because the casters are just too good and interact with the upgrades.

    The same applies to T4 (which doesnt exist for races) units.

    Races atm are rather bland and boring and mostly something to use for minor details.

    #95282

    razzafazza
    Member

    Shadow Demons. Done.

    not really what i had in mind with insectoids. more like this:

    http://community.wizards.com/sites/mtgcommunity/files/pictures/Array7fcArrayArraydb77Array9Array5ArrayArrayde4ArraybbeArrayArrayArrayd9Arraydaa.jpg

    shadowdemons felt like a weird demon/zerg hybrid to me. didnt like em much to be honest. and i dont think anything “-demon” would work well with AOW3s class system.

    Insectoid Theocrat ? why not.
    Demon theocraft ? euhm….

    (just for example)

    #95284

    Kubera
    Member

    Races atm are rather bland and boring and mostly something to use for minor details.

    Lizardmens – the only race with an organic siege unit (catapult and ballista on a turtle, that they can be cure heal).
    But we must return this spell:

    Wetland

    Torrential rains flood the lands, but leave your cities unharmed.

    http://aow2.heavengames.com/aowsm/gameinfo/magicspells/water.shtml

    Lizardmens – really need it (especially on the map “one Land”)

    #95313

    llfoso
    Member

    I’m happy with six races. I think I’m not alone in saying I much prefer six races that each have a lot more depth, individuality, and content to having 9+ races of limited depth.

    #95316

    pulseunit
    Member

    Just need Halflings. After that knock yourselves out I’m easy.

    #95327

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Lizardmens – really need it (especially on the map “one Land”)

    I’m not sure about that. ‘One land’ maps generally still have rivers, and a one-hex river is still a significant barrier for troops (especially if the enemy has warships on the river, doubly so if the warships in question are ironclads. Ironclads mass stuff up). Being able to cross a one-hex river without having to spend a turn embarking is still an advantage.

    Going back to the OP… it’s an interesting question. My feeling is that, for a game of this style, 6 is borderline too few, but on the right side of the line. Up to about 10-12 I think I’d be excited for pretty much any addition, after that they’d need to be increasingly close to my favourites to raise that sort of enthusiasm. When/if it starts getting close to 20, they’ll probably start running together in my mind and start becoming a case of there being a little over half a dozen races that I really care about, and the rest are just the mass of other races.

    #95329

    Xei Win Toh
    Member

    I’d like another 2 races and another 2 classes so I could have 8-player scenarios against the computer without overlapping class or race.

    #95332

    Kubera
    Member

    I’m not sure about that. ‘One land’ maps generally still have rivers, and a one-hex river is still a significant barrier for troops (especially if the enemy has warships on the river, doubly so if the warships in question are ironclads. Ironclads mass stuff up). Being able to cross a one-hex river without having to spend a turn embarking is still an advantage.

    Wetland and tornado – were very good things (AoW2), but out of antibalance. The main feature is the lizards “ability to swim” – they just need a chance to turn the whole world into a large pond.

    #95336

    Draxynnic
    Member

    And that’s why lizards weren’t in AoW2.

    Now that any race can cross water bodies reasonably conveniently once Seafaring is researched, swimming is less of an advantage – still an advantage, but it really only saves you one turn (maybe not even that for longer water trips due to the generally high speeds of ships) and being a swimming unit rather than on a ship is a double-edged sword in tactical, particularly for lower-tier units. Since it’s less of an advantage, they can be balanced so that they’re still effective on low-water maps – after all, we don’t see many complaints about elves being too strong on heavily forested maps and too weak on sparsely forested maps because of Forestry.

    #95339

    Kubera
    Member

    I think lizards:

    +
    swim (even catapult and ballista)
    regeneration


    vulnerable to cold (less than their brothers draconians)
    low resistance

    p.s. I’m surprised at the responses to the op issue. I think 10-12 is considered standard. However, a large depth of races are also welcome, but at the moment replayability is not basis of race, replayability based on the difference classes.

    #95341

    To be “happy” I do not need “more races” but rather “better races” instead. The way it is now the race doesnt matter and the class defines everything. Even if you are a High Elf you wont build archers if you play as a sorcerer, because the casters are just too good and interact with the upgrades.
    The same applies to T4 (which doesnt exist for races) units.

    Races atm are rather bland and boring and mostly something to use for minor details.

    @ Rabiator, although I disagree that they “don’t matter” (for example, try playing a Druid game using just your class units) they could do with some variation.

    I take it you have read my thoughts on Haflings.

    In a strange misaligning of the cosmos, both myself and Epaminondas are thinking of ways to make races more assymetric.

    I feel alot of the ‘boring races’ syndrome comes down to the following things:

    1- 6 races, where before we had 15.

    2- every race is racial, whereas before they all had creatures in them

    3- you can use every race

    4- every race follows the irregular> melee,archer–> support–> cav, pike –> tier 3 (which is always a tanky, bruiser, hard hitting type of unit) template quite religiously.

    5- Every race has the exact same number of units, unlocked from the same buildings.

    6- the economy of every race is roughly similar, (Dwarves cost 10% more, Goblins 10% less).

    I should start a dedicated thread, open up my (sometimes crazy) ideas to the forum, but as a quick guide:

    1 – add more races

    2 – I quite like this, as it makes the races feel more racial, and allows for greater use and diversity of dwellings.

    3 – This is a question of alignment, so not going to go into that. Other options are to massively boost the morale of your start race, and decrease that of secondary races, so, for example, starting as Elves, everyone else will find it very hard to be happy with you.

    4 – Change the template. Haflings, as outlined in other thread, could get no pike unit, but get early Cavalry when everyone else is fielding swordsmen and archers. Goblins could swap the skewer and Marauder around. So now you have one race that fields early cav, and it’s nemesis field early anti cav. Haflings could get an irregular as a tier 3. Tigrans could get a support unit as a tier 3.

    5 – Allow more variation here (there already is some, in Dwarf and Goblin costs, and that Marauders and Warg riders get Volunteer as a medalled upgrade), for example:

    Goblins could get Bombers as an extra t1 irregular (perhaps instead of Rams?),

    Dwarves could get an extra machine from the Siege workshop,

    Elves could get a Mother Superior (Initiate–> Storm sister—> Mother Superior) from the Temple, who can maybe call lightning or something (Drax’s or Chrys’ ideas, I but stand on the shoulder of Giants).

    6 – The economy refers to the income, unit cost and upkeep parameters. There are several ways to tinker with this. For example:

    Orcs could get reduced penalties from rushing Production.

    Dwarves could get more gold from mines, but also require more gold upkeep (e.g. 5 gold per tier 1, not 4, 9 or 10 per tier 2. Tier 3 left alone)

    Humans could earn gold from the harbour, and maybe get unique to human ships.

    Haflings could get gold from the harbour (less than Humans) but also gold from farms, and are better at producing merchandise.

    Goblins could require less upkeep (e.g. 3 gold per tier 1, 7 per tier 2, tier 3 left alone), and maybe have cheaper buildings (e.g. 90 gold for a warhall).

    Draconians could get a new racial building, which unlocks a Hydra, and gives them regeneration, which brings me nicely onto:

    Every existing race could get a new unit, but they don’t have to be at the same tier, e.g. hydras are a solid t3 candidate.

    #95343

    melkathi
    Member

    I’m happy with six races. I think I’m not alone in saying I much prefer six races that each have a lot more depth, individuality, and content to having 9+ races of limited depth.

    But they do not have more depth. The only thing that really stands out for each race is their tier 3. The rest are all so balanced that they are little more but different flavours of the same unit.
    We don’t have less races so each could have added depth. We have less races so that we could get classes that allow for a number of combinations to be added onto the races.

    #95344

    As long as that is, that’s the short version, believe it or not.

    #95345

    melkathi
    Member

    Goblins could get Bombers as an extra t1 irregular (perhaps instead of Rams?),

    That would actually be a prime candidate for a unique Goblin Dreadnought unit, if every race class combination was to add one or two unique units for that combination only.

    #95348

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:</div>
    Goblins could get Bombers as an extra t1 irregular (perhaps instead of Rams?),

    That would actually be a prime candidate for a unique Goblin Dreadnought unit, if every race class combination was to add one or two unique units for that combination only.

    That also makes sense :).

    I was looking at races on their own merit.

    Cross referencing them with existing class units would be a whole other ball game.

    #95353

    llfoso
    Member

    But they do not have more depth. The only thing that really stands out for each race is their tier 3. The rest are all so balanced that they are little more but different flavours of the same unit.<br>
    We don’t have less races so each could have added depth. We have less races so that we could get classes that allow for a number of combinations to be added onto the races.

    Wait, are you saying you don’t want more depth to the races? You want the class to be the only defining difference? (don’t take these as rhetorical questions, I’m just trying to be clear on your position)

    My point is that new races should be the lowest priority. New units to the existing classes/races, new neutral units, new environment doodads, better ship mechanics, more spells, fleshed out city-building and diplomacy…All those things are more important to me than new races. That’s all I really mean to say.

    #95357

    He thought you were saying that you prefer the races we have now, because they have more depth. He is saying that the current races don’t have more depth than the old races, so in his opinion there was no reason to have fewer races.

    I think what you were actually saying is that you would prefer fewer, more in depth races, than more, similar races.

    I am saying we can have more races and vary them about.

    Assuming Syrons (extinct on Athla), Dark Elves (the medning), Archons (they could come back, but I assume they are busy in other worlds), Undead (because of Necromancers) and Shadow demons (extinct on Athla) aren’t coming back, that leaves:

    Haflings
    Frostlings
    Tigrans
    Nomads

    Which is 10, converted from Shadow Magic. Combined with a new class (Necromancer) or 2 (Warlock/Demonologist) we end up with 10 races and 8 classes (80 possible combinations?).

    That’s a huge amount, so I’d be happy with them being introduced slowly.

    Now, you can think of ways to bring back the others, e.g.:

    Dark Elves – The Human threat causes some Extremists to reform the Cult of Storms.

    Archons – a Burning Crusade to rid themselves of the tainted Archon (Undead).

    (12 races, 8 classes)

    and/or, bring back the Lizards, who have the advantage of not needing to embark, but also don’t have any ships. Double edged indeed.

    13 races, 8 classes.

    Now think of new races…

    There is alot of life left in this series. I predict 2 major expansion packs.

    #95366

    Hulahn
    Member

    I would say that before adding more races (I know the devs. are already hard at work finishing one up), there is much to be gained with the existing set. Combining ideas from many others’ posts (apologies if I don’t know whom to credit for all of these):

    1. add race-class specific units (as suggested above by melkathi, started by BBB)
    2. add specialization combo spells: Air + Water = Hailstorm [AoE] w/½-Frost + ½-Phys dmg. (saw in another thread, don’t recall by who)
    3. add specialization-class spells: ArchDruid + Destruction = Summon Abomination (I just threw this one in)
    4. add 1-2 more racial benefits to your empire which alter viable strategies (BBB’s suggestions above are solidly decent)
    5. add up to 2 more dwellings: one w/folklore creatures like centaurs, and another with demons which would alter your alignment toward evil (the folklore idea I saw in another thread, the other I just threw in there off the top of my head)

    I think just doing these things would go far as to add more options within the game long before ever introducing other races or classes – both of which I’m in favor of, but not in place of broadening the use of what the game already has available to it.

    #95387

    Kubera
    Member

    Race need for the atmosphere. On a much greater diversity races – the richer gaming world. Diversity gameplay and deep specialization unit – classes. This is my opinion.

    #95390

    GoblinCookie
    Member

    How many races do I need to be happy, well all of them and one more. (I wish this forum had smilies!)

    Not to be prejudiced we really need to work on the main races who are really lurking on the edge of the plot, those who should be there and their absence was never really accounted more properly. So to go with the original 3 race setup.

    1. (Good, Neutral, Evil team)
    Halflings- The whole dissapearing act thingy is odd.
    Tigrans- Dissapearing act again, just somewhat less mysterious.
    Undead- We have them already really but not as a major player.

    2. (Neutrals on the edge)
    Lizardmen- A general series dissapearing act for a while now, game mechanics however now means they are no longer neccesarily hard to balance against the AI.
    Frostlings- We have faught in pretty artic/northern terrain so we should encounter them to some degree.
    Nomads- They are in the same situation as the Frostlings, they are on the edge of civilization.

    3. (Elves and Archons)
    Dark Elves- We know that they are still around somewhere underground.
    Wood Elves- High Elves are not supposed to be opposite of Dark Elves, needed to be their foil.
    Archons- Needed in their traditional role as foil to the undead.

    4 (Bottom of the barrel)
    Azracs- They are accounted for kind of with the Nomads.
    Shadow Demons- They are accounted for and would be highly difficult to implement with the existing lineup, requiring a whole lineup of customised class-based units to work.
    Syrons- Not quite as hard to implement as Shadow Demons but only really making sense with the presence of Shadow Demons.

    I am deciding this mostly on the basis of how much are accounted for, the better and more solid/realistic their dissapearance the greater their ranking.

    #95391

    @ Hulahn, Water Mastery gives you great hail, which is a beautiful spell.

    #95402

    Hulahn
    Member

    Heh, good to know @BBB. As you can tell, I’ve not used that spec. yet, though I’m now more inclined to check it out! 😀

    Overall, it seems that the bulk (if not all) of us are in agreement that the existing races lack the real depth that we’re looking for. We should start threads to support each suggestion being made, and then get them posted in the “Suggestion” thread for dev. consideration.

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