February 11, 2013 at 20:16 #1036
I am nervous about the leader class system being introduced in AoW3. It could be good if done correctly, but I also see ways it could be bad for the game. Below are my opinions on things the class systems should not do.
Class determines your alignment (good/evil). The developers say in AoW3 they are getting away from fantasy cliches like “All Goblins Are Evil.” I had no problem with cliche race alignments in past AoW games, but it appears your race will not determine your alignment in this game. Now the question is – what will determine your alignment? If class determines your alignment then AoW3 has gone from one cliche to another. If all Theocrats are good and all Rogues are evil, I would rather have the old race alignments back. IMO, something besides race and class must determine alignment or we should just go back to the race alignment system.
The class units are the same for all alignments. This is the goblin angel problem. Let us assume there are different alignments for each of the classes. I have no problem with good Goblin Theocrats getting goblins with angel wings. However, if I am an evil Goblin Theocrat then I do not want my goblins to have angel wings. Instead my goblins should get evil demon wings or something along those lines.
The new classes mean less spells. I still want all the spell spheres of past games to be in the new AoW3. I also want the variety/number of spells to be at least equal to past games. It is not clear whether or not all classes will even use spells or perhaps each class will have its own spells (or spell-like abilities). However, if I am the Sorcerer class I better have as many spell options as past games and be able to customize what spheres I use. If all Sorcerers use the same spells then AoW3 has simply traded the variety of spell spheres for the variety of classes.
Don’t lose the epic good vs. evil feel of past AoW games. Again this comes back to the question of how will alignment be determined. In particular how will the alignment of independent cities be determined? For players it might be based on what spell spheres they use or what god they follow, but what about cities that are not owned by any player yet? Will there still be good and evil cities on the map not owned by any player? If I am an evil player will I still be able to get the independent evil cities to join me without a fight or vice versa if I am good?
I really want AoW3 to turn out great because I loved the past games. I hope more details will be revealed soon and show that none of the above mistakes are being made.February 11, 2013 at 20:21 #1039
The devs should say something more about the game before some of us have a seizure.February 11, 2013 at 20:25 #1040
I have to agree with you, actually, when you talk about alignment. I’ve been wondering the same things, but have been waiting until we get more details about that.
I really hope class does NOT = alignment. That’s no basis for alignment. If all rogues are neutral– well, that’s no fun. An Archdruid can use their powers over nature for evil. A Theocrat can be deceiving the world into thinking they’re the good guy when really hellbent on conquering potential threats (Humans from Shadow Magic, anyone?). A Warlord can just be a REALLY darned smart general that beats evil uglies dead.
If I had to choose, I’d pick race = alignment instead, too. It may be “cliche,” but you rarely see that cliche in modern fantasy games anymore. The stereotype is becoming rarer and rarer, and that’s precisely what hooked me to Age of Wonders and Age of Wonders 2 a few years ago.
Now, if alignment is determined by something else – player actions, maybe, or an alignment chosen at the start of the game -, that’s different. And maybe there are two classes that are naturally good or evil aligned, or two races (like Undead being Pure Evil and Archons being Pure Good in AoW1 and 2). However, arbitrarily changing the alignment to be class-based instead of race-based seems like the wrong direction to take, if that’s the direction being taken.February 11, 2013 at 20:26 #1042
Oh- and yes, we don’t know enough to judge yet. Note the ‘ifs’ dotted here and there in my first post.February 11, 2013 at 20:30 #1043
If I understand the AoW3 concept correctly, all we have are:
1. Classses – same type of units for all races [no good, neutral or evil differentiation]
2. Races – Various racial traits + different stats for the races, again no alignments are involved
Personally I never liked the “goblins/orcs/whatver” can be good idea, but oh well…we shall see how it turns out.
I would rather do not allow X class to pick Y race [example: if you wanna play a theocrat you cannot play with Orcs], and add more classes and races to compensate the loss of some combinations. It would be much better..IMHO at least.February 11, 2013 at 20:31 #1044
All i doubt a druid could be evil because druids do not really “control” nature, it’s more of a coorporation.
Anyway, I think that it’s not really about “good and evil” anymore.
Take our world for example. Liberals vs conservatives vs Communists Vs imperialists etc
Not all of them are good and not all of them are evil. I think this has gone far from “good and evil” and it’s about the balance and the goals each class has.
Although a wizard and a theocrat can be both good and evil.February 11, 2013 at 20:33 #1045
I think actually it’s not about wizards being good or evil. maybe this words have lost their meaning in this age. Maybe it’s just that wizards do not wish to see engine-made machines. And theocrats believe that magic is a bad thing. And overlords thinking that elves are a weak race that need to be vanished.
maybe it’s about each race wanting to establish their own role.February 11, 2013 at 20:34 #1046
TheDio – If we follow the dev’s logic…druids can be evil. I mean, if the goblins or orcs can be good…? Why not? Why put a restriction on this, and why don’t put a restriction on that? It’s absolutely the same “logical category”.February 11, 2013 at 20:40 #1047
Druids cannoit be evil, because like we said : races become good or evil depending on their class.
Thus a class has a premade role. And since a goblin can be good or evil depending on the class it takes…and since druids are a class..you cannot have good and evil druids 😛 Just like you cannot have good and evil theocrats..theocrats are good (or seem to be)February 11, 2013 at 20:48 #1048
“Good” and “Evil” tends to be a matter of perception. Druids for example can be considered good when they take care of nature without interfering with civilization all that much. A neutral druid still takes care of nature but gets in the way of civilization from time to time by making sure it won’t expand into certain areas or adopt certain policies. An evil one puts nature first and actively opposes anything that harms nature at all. All are druids, all want similar things, but they end up perceived in different ways.
But I hope that alignment will be fluid and won’t be something you pick at the beginning of the game and it always stays the same. Your actions should effect it and your alignment should be reflected by the appearance of your units (and bonus points if it’s reflected by the rest of your empire). Pretty much, it’d be great if it worked in similar ways as Black and White or the Neverwinter games.
Sadly we’ll just have to wait and see, but classes determining your alignment would be horrible. At least with the racial alignments you could always explain it away with “simply misunderstood” (even if that wasn’t always exactly official :p).February 11, 2013 at 20:50 #1049
Having alignment depend on class is exactly what I don’t want to see. It would feel like the devs replaced a cliche alignment system with another cliche alignment system. If this is the case, then I would rather just stick with the original alignment system.February 11, 2013 at 20:51 #1050
100% agree with what Red Key’s OP says.
If we take a look at the Theocrat class units screenshot this all screams “Class determines Alignment”, the white robes, the angel wings, the shiny armour.
My biggest fear at the moment is that everything that has been expressed here as worries is exactly the design direction TS has taken so far.
Why else would they be so quiet about these issues fans are nearly having seizures about?February 11, 2013 at 20:55 #1051
“But I hope that alignment will be fluid and won’t be something you pick at the beginning of the game and it always stays the same. Your actions should effect it and your alignment should be reflected by the appearance of your units (and bonus points if it’s reflected by the rest of your empire).”
I agree with this.February 11, 2013 at 21:26 #1053
I also like the fluid alignment idea, but I would settle for picking alignment at the beginning.
Alignment affects a lot of little things in the original games – what cities will will join you peacefully, which ones must you conquer and migrate, what units will rebel if left alone, etc… I still want those mechanics to be in the game. I want to have to worry about cities and units rebelling if they are of a different alignment, and the ability to migrate cities.February 11, 2013 at 21:47 #1055
RE #1049: Yep, agreed.
RE #1050: Class determines Alignment -> It looks that it will work like that in AoW3…and it’s a bad design direction IMHO, but again, I am not a developer.February 11, 2013 at 22:25 #1063
Hi! Class doesn’t fix alignment. Of course it doesn’t!! 🙂
Alignment starts fairly neutral, with certain starting races likely to have a (smaller) disposition to dark or light.
Your actions are the key determining factor of alignment. If you go out razing with your High Elves, you’ll become evil. If you play like mother Theresa as a Goblin, you become good, only you might be less likely to do so.
Some classes (esp the Rogue and a possible future Necromancer class that’s still on the drawing board) have certain skills that could be a catalyst on sending your alignment going south a lot quicker than other classes. think of transforming an entire population to undead. Or a nice tempting gold boost on pillage and plunder.
If you want to play an evil Goblin Theo, pick some nice dark player colors, like blood Red on sinister Black (which will be applied on your units, replacing the White/Yellow on the robes of the concept art), choose “Graveyard Gloom” as your leader portrait ambience, raze some heathen cities and you’ll be all the rage at your annual evil fantasy despots gathering. 😉February 11, 2013 at 22:33 #1064
Thanks for clearing this up Lennart! Now just watch a bunch of us try to play good necromancers in white robes because we can. (If I could do it in Dungeons & Dragons I can do it in Age of Wonders!) ;DFebruary 11, 2013 at 22:37 #1065
Haha wow through our actions? Wow what do you guys have to say now? This is 1000 times better than whatever we thought of! Congrats!February 11, 2013 at 22:38 #1067
Yeah, thanks for enlightening us, I think this at least resolves some of the most fearsome worries of some of us…February 11, 2013 at 22:39 #1068
Very nice to hear ! Thank you Lennart !
You’re doing a good job as keeping us breathing while waiting for new info about content, features and mechanics.February 11, 2013 at 22:47 #1072
Well, it would be bad to keep us hanging for to long as most of the fanbase would die from lack of oxygen or heart attacks. :p
But yhea, it sounds like we’re getting exactly what we hoped for alignment wise… now to keep in mind that razing cities just cause you’re in a bad mood is a bad idea… *looks at last mission in AoW1*… maybe 20 towns was a bit excessive…. as a good elf…February 12, 2013 at 00:15 #1098
Seizure averted! 😉 Here’s another thanks for clearing that up. Those were my major concerns. From what I am hearing on these forums the devs are doing a great job!February 12, 2013 at 01:05 #1102
That sounds awesome, Lennart! 😀February 12, 2013 at 04:36 #1112
goblin Theocrat Priestking with gravyardgloom escorted by flying karaghs with fire clubs? I agree asthetics are important, see David Bowie as Goblinking with his lovely goblin puppets.February 12, 2013 at 04:40 #1113
*looks at last mission in AoW1*… maybe 20 towns was a bit excessive…. as a good elf…
Hm… Yeah… maybe… And maybe I should actually feel bad when my halfling armies just outright stomp down all those goblin tribes into extinction…
But yeah, this is good news. I’m very pleased to hear action, in the end, determines alignment. Seizure averted, indeed.February 12, 2013 at 06:31 #1117
Good news, indeed. 🙂February 12, 2013 at 08:20 #1122
Thanks for the clear-up post, Lennar! I expected something like that, but it is always good to have validation. 🙂February 12, 2013 at 08:50 #1123
I guess i will be always evil with all this city razing 😉 Dynamic alignment is very, very cool. Thanks for info, Lennart!February 12, 2013 at 09:18 #1125
Will we still have Quests from gods btw?February 12, 2013 at 09:24 #1126
Great news !!!
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