Human Archers vs Orc Razorbows vs Dwarves Crossbowmen

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Human Archers vs Orc Razorbows vs Dwarves Crossbowmen

This topic contains 7 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Fenraellis 8 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #51599

    vota dc
    Member

    We know that for different reasons (area damage and fire, max damage, blight damage and ignore obstacles) blight flamers, longbow and darter are the most popular racial ranged and the other three are inferior.
    But between Human Archers, Orc Razorbows and Dwarves Crossbowmen (btw crossbowMEN is correct but in the game sounds funny) what is the better? Human Archers are supposed to inflict more damage if they shoot three times against low defense units, Orc Razorbows have the worst damage when their skill doesn’t work, Dwarves Crossbowmen something in a middle and they don’t have to shoot three times so it is more common for them do always max damage but they cost 10% more. Against units with low defense only crossbowmen deal decent damage while the other could just deal 3 if they shoot three times, however in this case orcs are better than humans because their skill that deal 8 physical damage in two turns bypassing defense. Human seems the worst or I missing something?

    #51608

    Orcs have the lowest attack rating.

    #51649

    vota dc
    Member

    Not sure but basic max damage against a enemy with 10 defense should be 15 for Razorbows, 16 Crossbow and 18 Archers. When bleeding works is 19 at the beginning of the enemy turn or there is time to heal before bleeding start? And buff damage I guess work better on razorbows and archers than crossbow because multiple attacks? Elves do 27 (8 + 1 racial bonus), Goblins 21 (4+3), Draconians don’t remember the two latter also do +2 when flanking because two types of damage.

    #52396

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Actually, against a Base 10 Defense and Resistance target, and not considering damage variance(+/- ~20%):
    Razorbows are (6 x 3) + Bleed = 18 + 4(x2 turns, and not reduced by Defense, only Physical Protection)
    Humans are 8 x 3 = 24
    Dwarves are 16
    Elves are 9 x 3 = 27
    Goblins are (3 Phys x 3) + (4 Blight x 3) = 9 Phys + 12 Blight = 21 total damage
    Draconians are 4 Phys + 8 Fire = 12 total damage + 1 radius splash

    Against a 7/7 Low Def/Res, we see changes:
    Orcs = 27 + 4(x2)
    Humans = 33
    Dwarves = 19
    Elves = 36
    Goblins = 18 + 21 = 39 (!)
    Draconians = 7 + 11 = 18 + splash (36 vs 2, 54 vs 3, etc.)

    Conversely, against a Med-High 13/13, we see:
    Orcs = 9 + 4(x2) [potential 17 total]
    Humans = 15
    Dwarves = 13
    Elves = 18
    Goblins = 3 + 3 = 6 (minimum damage is always actually 1-2, so that’s 6-12)
    Draconians = 1 + 5 = 6 + splash

    Against High 16/16:
    Orcs = 3 + 4(x2) [Real = 3 ~ 6 + 4(x2), Potential 3 ~ 6 + 8 = 11 ~ 14]
    Humans = 6
    Dwarves = 10
    Elves = 9
    Goblins = 3 + 3 = 6 [Real = 6 ~ 12]
    Draconians = 1 + 2 = 3 + splash [Real = 3 ~ 4]

    So, some conclusions:
    — Orcs are generally inferior, but their bleed effect can make them slightly more useful against higher defense targets, albeit over time, especially if they get less than full shots off… but bleed checks against Defense for success rate, so that’s a toss-up.

    — Humans are what they are, neither superior, nor particularly inferior. Against High Defense targets, they drop off sooner than Orcs will if the Orcs can successfully Inflict Bleeding Wounds.

    — Dwarves are comparable against medium-high defense when comparing against 1-2 shots of normal archers, and superior to Goblins against med-high(but not truly high) defenses in general. At 22 or beyond Defense (4 non-variance damage for Crossbows), Dwarves have lower potential than other Pure Physical archers shooting 3 shots.

    — Elves are just slightly better than the standard Humans in this regard.

    — Goblins scale devastatingly against low defenses due to their dual-damage channels, and actually do decently against higher defenses due to minimum 1-2 damage per channel per shot letting them do 6 ~ 12 damage against the highest defensive values while single-channel users only deal 3 ~ 6 damage.

    — Draconians are similar to Goblins in that they can scale quite well against lower defensive values, but due to their single-shot element, do not scale as reasonably against higher values. That being said, if they can hit multiple targets, they easily beat most others at Low defenses, and can pull roughly even at two targets at Base or higher defenses.

    #52398

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Nice post 😀

    #52400

    11balanced
    Member

    Fenraellis:

    Thank you for so detailed calculations, I like how it works now. The diversity of ranged attacks with new combat rules was my big concern, and now it’s gone )) I see a good progress here since AoW-2.

    #52408

    vota dc
    Member

    Thanks, very informative. For some reason I believed that humans had 6 attack and then orcs had 5 because the -1 racial. At the end the elves and humans had the same basic damage and what make the difference is the +1 racial of elves and the lack of range penalty. Didn’t know about the rule of chances of making 2 as minimum damage, that penalize a lot dwarves with only one shot and one source of damage.

    #52472

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Also, I just got some clarification. The damage variance is indeed +/- 20%, following standard rounding rules. That is <1.5 = lower values, >=1.5 = higher value.

    Thus, 10 damage after the defense calculation, would show as 8 ~ 12 when attacking. 5 would be 4 ~ 6. 3 would be 2 ~ 4, but I’m not sure what 2 would be off the top of my head.
    1.6 to 2.4 suggests a solid value of 2 damage, and I feel like I have seen units with a listed 2 ~ 2 when attacking before.
    1 = 1 ~ 2
    2 = 2 ~ 2
    3 = 2 ~ 4
    3 through 7 = +/- 1 damage
    8 through 12 = +/- 2 damage
    13 through 17 = +/- 3 damage
    18 through 22 = +/- 4 damage
    23 through 27 = +/- 5 damage
    28 through 32 = +/- 6 damage [Likely to be Stronger-end T4 vs Low Defense unit]
    33 through 37 = =/- 7 damage [Very Uncommon]
    38 through 42 = +/- 8 damage [Extremely Unlikely to Occur]
    Anything beyond the above requires intensive arrangement of the situation to occur.

    I think 30 is the highest base damage for any action, and 25 for a melee attack, and don’t believe any unit gets above 32 naturally(does Fire Broadside benefit from +Ranged Damage from unit ranks?). Of course elements like Charge, flanking, Backstab, Assassin’s Strike, Armor Piercing, Overwhelm, and other spells that enhance damage might make the calculated damage surpass that into the 33-37 range, and maybe, just maybe, the 38-42 range in extreme cases of a super-buffed T4/Uber-Hero attacking a debuffed T1 unit.

    Actually, let’s do some theory-crafting, yay~!

    Archon Titan = 25 base, 29 at Gold Rank, if provided with Charge through Warlord Hero, that’s +6 = 35, Flanking = 37, Overwhelm(+3 vs Shielded/Pike, but Shields don’t help against Flanking~) = 40, Killer Instinct(All-Race-Slayer, +3 Dam) = 43, Lion’s Courage (+3str, Overwhelm, Strong Will) = 44, Last Stand (Polearm, First Strike +2Def) = 51 vs Mounted, Blood Bath(+5 for friendly units on battlefield) = 56. Oh, and +1 from Party-wide Warlord Hero buff = 57.

    Okay, so the easiest target would be Flanking against an unmodified Arch Druid/Sorcerer/Theocrat/Rogue non-Dwarf Hero(Only Mounted unit that has 9 Default defense, and Warlord/Dreadnought heroes are innately Armored), with the shield-slot artifact that provides just the Shielded ability. Hit them with some combination of Inflict Enfeebling Fever(-4 Def), Inflict Frostbite(-3 Def), Inflict Immolation, Throw Curse and Inflict Spirit Breaking (all -2 Def, among other effects), Weakening Touch (-1 Def, among other effects). I’m going to presume you can only bring Def to an effective value of 1, thus +9 damage. Although with enough of those, I suppose almost any mounted unit would be brought to 1 Def.

    So! A fully kitted out Archon Titan could strike said debuffed Hero for 57 + 9 = 66 damage +/- 13 = 53 ~ 79 damage.

    That would take four turns of combat for Blood Bath, Last Stand, Killer Instinct and Lion’s Courage to be cast. During that time, one would be attempting to debuff the enemy(Throw Curse lasts the entire battle, fighting on a Destruction Node of Magma Forge would debuff them -2 Def/Res, making the Inflict effects easier to apply), but Inflict effects only last two rounds. So presumably, location + Throw curse for -4, then try and hit Enfeebling Fever for that last -4, or do Weakening touch first since it’s another -1/1 and lasts 5 turns, making Frostbite and/or Enfeebling easier to apply without damaging the target too much.

    Well, that’s a scary scary thought, indeed. Orc Manticore Riders are already at 24 attack and charge by default, so they could even run with a Rogue party leader(also get +1 Physical party-wide) for the party-wide Armor Piercing and do it to any Armored unit as well, at just one less damage. Just need one or more of a Warlord Leader or Hero around to cast the aforementioned Warlord spells.

    A ‘discount’ T3 option would be the Orc Warbreed at 21 attack, but being a Monster class unit can be affected by Savage Rage(+3, First Strike, Overwhelm, Charge, Armor Piercing, Wall Crushing to Animal/Monster unit) bringing it to 24, although you still need a Warlord Leader/Hero for their spells, and either a Warlord or Rogue party leader for the +1 if you want that. Of course, that’s putting another spell, and thus another turn into the setup. That, and needing an Arch Druid hero around for Savage Rage.

    —–
    Well, that was an interesting, albeit beyond unlikely, situation to theory-craft for.

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