HUMAN Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions HUMAN Balance Discussion

This topic contains 122 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 7 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #113203

    ExNihil
    Member

    OK Guys,

    Due to repeated public demand I am separating my Races and Classes thread into separate topics. I hope you will all participate :). My original idea was to discuss Races and Classes together in a way that could highlight the balance relations between them. I will try to inter-connect the different threads in a way that will do that, but I’m afraid there is no really good way to do it in a forum.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #113205

    ExNihil
    Member

    HUMANS

    Humans are the only race with no substantial positives or negatives. They are supposedly the baseline, but this actually translates to a mediocre race that while being a better choice than Goblins and Orcs in most circumstances is rather under-powered relative to Elves, Dwarves and Draconians. Their traits: +5 City Production, Mariner. Likes: Fertile Plains, Dislikes: Arctic and Subterranean. Hates: Blighted and Volcanic.

    Current Issues:

    1. The +5 city production has almost no effect due to the game mechanics: to produce a unit or a building a number of production hammers that is equal to or greater than the total sum of mana and gold a building or unit costs. Thus to build wooden walls in 1 turn you need 100 production or more, as it costs 100 gold. Yet if you have 100 production a temple will still take 2 turn, as it costs 150 production to make. The extra 50 production you have doesn’t accumulate and thus lost. Now if you start the game with an outpost without any production buff structures you will have 20 production. If you build builders hall you will now have 40 production. This is the point in which those extra 5 production will help you as 45 is the cost of all irregular units in the game. The minute your outpost becomes a village this bonus doesn’t matter anymore as you now have 65 production, which…. no unit in the game costs. I’m sure in some combination of production structures, city buildings and this bonus will accelerate production but this is such a rare case that this bonus is next to useless.

    2. Human Priests have a spirit based ranged attack. This makes it completely useless against all machines (same as Blight) and theocrat units.

    3. The inherent devout trait that is added to the Human Knight and Human Priest is only effective in combination with the theocrat’s “Mark of the Heretic” spell. Yet the theocrat has the tech to give all of his units the devout trait which makes it redundant. The only situations in which Knights and Priests will benefit from this trait is when a player using a class other than a theocrat with humans is fighting alongside a theocrat in a team/allied battle against opponents that have been marked as heretics by the theocrat. This is highly situational and does not measure up next to other races’ special traits.

    4. Human Knights have arguably the least impressive traits of all racial t3 units, with the only other unit that contends for this dubious title being the Elven Gryphon Rider, which while weaker has the advantage of flying and gets traits that make it an all-round more effective killing machine when leveled to gold. Furthermore, it is the second most expansive racial t3 after first-born.

    Human Knight Traits: 160g/10mana, 70hp, 36mp, 13def, 11res. Melee attack 16. Walking, Cavalry, Mariner, Charge, Mounted, Armored, Devout and Shield – of these the only unique trait is Shield. When leveled receives Inflict Crippling Wounds and Strong Will.

    In comparison:
    Gryphon Rider -20gold +20mana, -5hp -1def +1res and -1melee with Flying and -20% blight weakness. It gets Inflict Bleeding Wounds and Tireless when leveled.
    Big Beetle +10mana, -5hp, -1 def, -2 physical damage and +3 blight damage, Tunneling, Overwhelm, Wall-Crushing and 100%! Blight protection. It gets Inflict Noxious Vulnerability and Inflict Severely Poisoned when leveled.
    Shock Trooper -10gold +10mana, -2 res (needs to be fixed) -4mp, +1 melee, Tireless, Overwhelm, Wall-Climbing and Inflict Bleeding Wounds. It levels gets Armor Piercing and Martial Arts when leveled.
    First Born +5gold, +12mana +1def +1res, -8mp, -1 physical damage and +3 fire damage, Dragon Slayer, Giant Slayer, Tunneling, Mind Control Immunity, Wall Climbing, 100%! Fire Protection and 20% Blight Protection. It get Inflict Immolation and Fire Aura when leveled.
    Draconian Flyer -10gold +10mana, -6hp -1def -6mp, Flying, wall climbing (this is redundant!), Overwhelm and +20 Fire protection and -20% Frost Weakness. It gets +40% fire protection, Inflict Bleeding Wounds and Tireless when leveled.
    All of these also get the mobility upgrades (forestry, mountaineering) and vision range upgrades (night vision) of their races.

    5. The human racial units and class units do not offer any outstanding combinations with classes. The two relatively powerful combinations with Warlord and Dreadnought relay on the fact humans have both the armored trait and a t3 cavalry unit. In both cases High-Elves offer a much better choice with a phasing t2 and a flying t3 cavalry which remedy the mobility deficits of these classes much better.

    6. While Fertile Plains is a good topographic buff, being a widely available geographical feature rather than a climate type, humans are completely incompatible with the UG because it is in disliked terrain.

    Rebalance Suggestions:

    1. There are two alternative solutions here. The simplest solution was suggested by @jomungur and it is to double the production bonus from +5 to +10. This will combine nicely with both production structures and buffs. While this will benefit all classes it will especially benefit Dreadnought players who have access to both unit cost reductions and production enhancements (buildings and spells), and to a lesser but nonetheless substantial degree Warlord players who have access to unit cost reduction. An alternative, which I personally like better, is to replace the +5 production with a +10 gold income per city. This bonus will have the advantage of being accumulated across the player’s empire – the more cities he/she has the more gold will the player receive due to this bonus. It also fits the character of Humans better – the industriousness of Humans manifests first and foremost, in my opinion, in their mercantile nature. This is the reason why they have the Mariner trait and it should also reflect in that their cities generate more trade revenue. This also has the advantage of effecting all classes to an equal level, with an obvious advantage to all production based classes which require gold as their primary resource (WL, Dread, Rogue and Theocrat.)

    2. The only solution is to reduce the spirit resistance of Machines and theocrat units from 100% to 40-60%. The justification for this is simple: Machines have operators, and no matter how good the insolation/shielding they have, magic based attacks are still effective. Furthermore, since Spirit is in fact the elemental manifestation of creative divine forces it should actually be able to damage the machinery itself on both the a material and magic level. As for the theocrat’s units: There is no reason why any unit below the level of exalted should receive 100% spirit protection. The devotion of these units gives them a certain level of spirit protection, which should be buffed using high tier global spells / empire upgrades or army leader abilities, but it shouldn’t give them complete immunity.

    3. I think it is best to remove the devout trait from both Knight and Priest and replace it with other traits that will make them more useful. I would give the Human Priest a +1 defense and thus make it better defended then other supports with the exception of the forge priest or give it a +1 spirit damage per attack, which will make it equal to the Storm Sister with 9 ranged damage. Alternatively Mind Control immunity would be a good trait that will leave the other stats within the average.
    4. I think the Knight, being the only t3 unit with no capacities in siege warfare (no wall-climbing, wall-crushing or flying abilities) should be buffed in a way that will make it into a truly exceptionally anti-personal unit in pitched battle. At the moment both the First Born and Shock Trooper have traits that make it distinctly stronger then the Knight without a substantial price difference. To balance this out a little bit I think that the knight should receive the following traits: Armor Piercing, Polearm and Overwhelm – after all it attacks with a giant lance, which makes these only necessary. Instead of the devout trait I would like to see Projectile Resistance, which would make it into a truly armored ‘tank’ and give it a better ability to storm city gates. An alternative ability could be Hero Slayer, which fits the ‘epic’ characteristics of Knights quite well. I would in turn adjust the unit’s price by 10 mana.

    5. By buffing the Knight as in clause four it will balance well against the flying abilities of Elven Gryphon Riders. Saying that, I think Humans should be attractive relative to other t2 cavalry units as well. Atm Elven Unicorn Riders have exactly the same cost and mostly the same stats and medal buff (Inflict Bleeding Wounds) with the difference being that Unicorn Riders receive -1def and +2res alongside Armor Piercing and Phase. Black Knights cost 10 gold more, has the racial +5hp +1melee -1 resistance and also +1def, Polearm and when leveled It gets Armor Piercing and Overwhelm. To become an attractive cavalry unit in comparison with these two it needs to be either cheaper or substantially stronger then it is now – as it is now the elven unit just offers a much better return for the gold and the Black Knight can probably seriously damage t3 units when properly leveled not to mention t2 cavalry. Therefore I suggest giving the Human Cavalry a +1 defense and +1 resistance (no reason why it has lower rating the Black Knight and Unicorn Riders have extremely high resistance) while reducing its price by 5-10 gold.

    6. The dislike Subterranean should be removed and replaced with dislike lava. Also, an interesting way to buff Humans could be to give them as liked terrain Water.

    #113230

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Regarding Knights.

    Polearm makes some sense in lore but i don’t see how it ever can be balanced on the highest defens, hp t3 unit with mounted benefits(charge/36mp)

    Knights stats are balanced well, i think the Devs made a decent job in theory. Their obvious problem is the too many ability counters that are available. Despite respectable stats for a t3 unit they often have to endure extra damage in some way.

    Suffering from polearm, overwhelm, armor piercing, devout slayer, holy champion, unholy champion. For instance an orc rogue could almost take full advantage of it and make shocktroopers go from 19 damage(bronze medal) normally to the extreme amount 27 damage made against knights(armor pierce, devout slayer, overwhelm). Add poison mastery and backstabb and they will 1-2 shot knights on flanking. Rogue draconian that is a popular choice can exploit the knight in the same way with t3 fliers.

    Comparatively gryphons despite lower armor don’t have to deal with armor piercing, overwhelm or devout slayer and the respective champion attacks. Knights are still in general more survivable than gryphons but loses out on their supposed niche advantage a great deal imo.

    Devout is the culprit. Having polearm, overwhelm, armor piercing weakness is enough counters. Devout adds very litle for none theocrats knights and opens up wicked combinations against them, i don’t like it at all. I would suggest either to remove it completely or make none theocrat knights benefit from it more than they curretly do(for none theocrats).

    If i did anything else to buff them it would be relatively minor. Knights start with crippling wounds and have armor piercing as bronze medal reward instead. Armor piercing makes alot sense with a piercing Lance.

    Regarding dreadnoughts and gryphons.

    Gryphons don’t have armored attribute, doesn’t function with solid engineering orgreat blacksmithing(1 armor/-10% cost) only sidearms. I think human t3 make better dreads though flying+ ranged attack have potential.

    P.S. Human priests could use the armored trait, 1 higher armor fits humans.

    #113278

    ExNihil
    Member

    Thanks for your post :).

    Polearm makes some sense in lore but i don’t see how it ever can be balanced on the highest defens, hp t3 unit with mounted benefits(charge/36mp)

    Knights do not have the highest defense – they have 13 defense which is the same as the Shock Trooper and 1 point less then the First-Born. HP wise they have the same First-Born and 5 points less (racial bonus) then Shock Trooper. They are mounted and therefore have charge and 36MP but as I discuss they have a serious lack of traits.

    Despite respectable stats for a t3 unit they often have to endure extra damage in some way.

    Suffering from polearm, overwhelm, armor piercing, devout slayer, holy champion, unholy champion. For instance an orc rogue could almost take full advantage of it and make shocktroopers go from 19 damage(bronze medal) normally to the extreme amount 27 damage made against knights(armor pierce, devout slayer, overwhelm). Add poison mastery and backstabb and they will 1-2 shot knights on flanking. Rogue draconian that is a popular choice can exploit the knight in the same way with t3 fliers.

    You are absolutely right in your analysis – hence it is doubly important to buff this unit.

    If i did anything else to buff them it would be relatively minor. Knights start with crippling wounds and have armor piercing as bronze medal reward instead. Armor piercing makes alot sense with a piercing Lance.

    They have a weak selection of starting traits at baseline, buffing their medals is nice but it will not balance them relative to the other t3 which remain better (see below regarding gryphons).

    Gryphons don’t have armored attribute, doesn’t function with solid engineering orgreat blacksmithing(1 armor/-10% cost) only sidearms. I think human t3 make better dreads though flying+ ranged attack have potential.

    You are correct. Yet this is mitigated by the fact that Gryphons have -1 defense in comparison to Knights without the Armored trait and Dread will only buff them to what Armor should basically give them at baseline (Gryphon-Rider has +1 defense for no apparent reason) and as you yourself noted the Armored trait makes them vulnerable to armor piercing attacks, against which they have -1 def compared to Gryphon Rider at baseline. Furthermore, the Human t2 cavalry is drastically inferior to the Elven one, and thus Elves offer an all in all better choice for Dreads IMO (this is arguable OFC).

    P.S. Human priests could use the armored trait, 1 higher armor fits humans.

    The Armor trait gives +2 defense. ATM the only support unit with Armor is the Dwarven Forge Priest. I do agree that this does fit Human Priests – good suggestion :).

    If you have other ideas / criticisms / suggestions, please don’t hesitate to post them.

    #113299

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    1) Upping the production might help a great deal, how would it compare to goblins?

    2) A new ability for priests, called ‘Debilitate’, that lowers spirit protection. (like the goblin doctor who can make machines susceptible to poison damage)

    3) I like the flavor of Priests and Knights being devout, but I do acknowledge that it is a weakness rather than a strenght. Maybe the Devout ability could be tweaked, for instance by adding +1 resistance. This would make the ability stronger when used outside of the theocrat spectrum and yet not overpowered when used by theocrats.

    4) You propose: Armor Piercing, Polearm, Overwhelm, Projectile Resistance, Hero Slayer. I think they would all suit the knight but, of course, he can’t have them all. My preference would be: Armor Piercing at tin medal, Overwhelm at bronze, Polearm at silver, Hero Slayer at gold along with Strong Will. No Crippling wounds. Devout trait should stay.

    5) Maybe there are no outstanding combinations with classes but I do not experience this as a problem, as all combinations are solid, which is the general theme of humans.

    6) I like your suggestion of adding water as a liked terrain. I think the underground dislike should remain.

    One more thing that I would consider a valid buff to humans is to have their light cavalry evolve into knights. It is one of my personal favorites.

    #113322

    I think it’s important to point out that the theme of a race or class will usually be of more importance than pure “balance” issues, ergo I very much devout is going anywhere.

    I believe you are underestimating the value of the Priest’s heal as well.

    Lastly, for now, Knights are supposed to rely on an earth shattering charge that really puts the pain on an enemy, preferably from the rear or sides, and aren’t supposed to be prolonged melee units. They do most well against walking targets, ergo I’m against giving them polearm. That’s just too powerful an ability and is supposed to be a specifically anti-cavalry trait, and Knights are anti infantry and squishy stuff, not anti cavalry.

    Historically, the Longbow caused the French Knights at Agincourt and Crecy no small amount of pain, ergo projectile resistance doesn’t fit either for me.

    Lastly, the armour trait doesn’t actually give extra defence, it’s basically a vulnerability. If 2 units have 14 defence, but one is armoured, they both take the same damage, but the armoured one will take more from armour piercing.

    Anyway, like I mentioned in the Orc thread, it is good that units have certain exploitable weaknesses(and yes, he has exploitable weaknesses, but tbh how often do you see a unit counter it with all of these weaknesses? If you’ve managed to do that, then well played to you!), and you should consider this before suggesting balance changes based purely on the numbers.

    For myself, I would personally give the Knight 32 mp but the sprint ability with a medal (represents better trained Horses), and introduce another level of charge, e.g. charge 2, which would up the charge damage bonus to 10. So, it would start off slightly weaker, but as it gains experience it becomes a truly deadly avatar of war. I’d also give it an extra 1 defence to offset the armour piercing vulnerability slightly, so it starts with the same defence as the FirstBorn, who is the other mailclad warrior.

    Also, a racial building in the form of the Farrier’s workshop, which would upgrade the Rider’s Hall, would accomplish much the same thing. I suggested that this would add another medal, and the sprint ability, to produced Cavalry units.

    Lastly, if/when spillover production shows up, that extra +5 production is going to skyrocket in value.

    #113387

    Ericridge
    Member

    Elite Knights led by a Warlord plus high morale somewhere in range of 400-800 or more? with bloodbath cast has resulted into Wooden Gates of Stone walls being blown open with a single charge from my elite knights. And by next turn my knights basically rode down the walls full of archers like they were nothing xD

    Can’t remember exact value of my morale was cuz its been months since i last played a warlord.

    So that addresses the siege concerns of the knight for a specific niche situation. And Historically, cavalry is terrible in sieges. And as it happens, the said knight is a cavalry unit…. XD

    I think my highest damage from a single shot was 78? From an elite musketeer….

    Really High Morale does crazy things.

    #113388

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think it’s important to point out that the theme of a race or class will usually be of more importance than pure “balance” issues, ergo I very much devout is going anywhere.

    Perhaps, but whatever theme there is for humans this trait is currently useless as par my analysis – it is simply superfluous. An alternative would be

    I believe you are underestimating the value of the Priest’s heal as well.

    I have not discussed it at all, ergo I did no such thing.

    Lastly, for now, Knights are supposed to rely on an earth shattering charge that really puts the pain on an enemy, preferably from the rear or sides, and aren’t supposed to be prolonged melee units. They do most well against walking targets, ergo I’m against giving them polearm. That’s just too powerful an ability and is supposed to be a specifically anti-cavalry trait, and Knights are anti infantry and squishy stuff, not anti cavalry.

    They really should – charge comes from cavalry though, so both Beetle and Gryphon got the same and knight have no special quality here. Pole-arm just means the unit will be effective against other cavalry units – Think about knights in a tournament. The knight has a very long weapon and it should be a superiror anti-cavalry as well. What you describe also applies to t2 cavalry units, whereby the Knight should be a special unit.

    Historically, the Longbow caused the French Knights at Agincourt and Crecy no small amount of pain, ergo projectile resistance doesn’t fit either for me.

    This is a fantasy game – relaying on historical argumentation where you have such things as mana is a bit absurd IMO: I wonder what first-born would have done to the Normans – I guess they would have used the Viking skulls to drink beer. Be that as it may, what you write rather then explaining why Knight shouldn’t have projectile resistance applies more to the question whether Longbowman should have Armor Piercing – which IMO they definitely should.

    For myself, I would personally give the Knight 32 mp but the sprint ability with a medal (represents better trained Horses), and introduce another level of charge, e.g. charge 2, which would up the charge damage bonus to 10. So, it would start off slightly weaker, but as it gains experience it becomes a truly deadly avatar of war. I’d also give it an extra 1 defence to offset the armour piercing vulnerability slightly, so it starts with the same defence as the FirstBorn, who is the other mailclad warrior.

    Also, a racial building in the form of the Farrier’s workshop, which would upgrade the Rider’s Hall, would accomplish much the same thing. I suggested that this would add another medal, and the sprint ability, to produced Cavalry units.

    I like the idea of Sprint, but I definitely don’t see why a reduction to 32mp is necessary. As for the other suggestions – rather then find a solution based on existing traits you ask for 2 non-existing elements to be introduced. The First-Born has 14 defense because Dwarves got a racial +1, they should have the highest defense on a t3 as tankiness is a definitive part of the idea of Dwarves.

    Saying that, I think there are many possible configurations of the Knight and would like to think of one using your idea of sprint in combination with existing elements.

    #113391

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Knights do not have the highest defense – they have 13 defense which is the same as the Shock Trooper and 1 point less then the First-Born. HP wise they have the same First-Born and 5 points less (racial bonus) then Shock Trooper. They are mounted and therefore have charge and 36MP but as I discuss they have a serious lack of traits.

    Yes this is true however technically with shield they reach a 15 def potential. In any case they are highly armored t3 units in average on par with firstborns, depending on player skill to maintain shield buff active. I should have written shared highest for clarity, the highest amount for t3 racial units presently( i’ve heard the orc t3 will be buffed)

    Well all abilities accounted for they are ok enough imo, i rather see they tinker with devout than adding a powerful new combat tool, for instance polearm is good enough to be a gold medal reward.

    They have a weak selection of starting traits at baseline, buffing their medals is nice but it will not balance them relative to the other t3 which remain better (see below regarding gryphons).

    Well i don’t really agree except devout being a liability currently, perhaps lacking a minor combat ability(ArmPen)

    Shield is a powerful ability and more so when stacked with 13 def, knights are almost impervious against projectile attacks with shield up and therefore i don’t see the need for projectile resistance buff, overwhelm really is something given to big beetles as far as t3 cavalry goes(makes more sense with swords/axes).
    I don’t think knights should get it, will lead to a kind of homogenisation rather than uniqueness and diversity. Polearm is too much of a hard counter for certain units and in my view overpowered with their mounted benefits/ tier level and solid stats in mind, it is dangerous enough on a t2 cavalry platform(black rider) i rather not see it on t3 def heavy cavalry.

    Therefore if absolutely necessary(with suggested devout fix in mind) i thought removing crippling wounds from the medal and giving it from start, then with armor penetration at bronze it definitely would buff them more than adequately imo.

    You are correct. Yet this is mitigated by the fact that Gryphons have -1 defense in comparison to Knights without the Armored trait and Dread will only buff them to what Armor should basically give them at baseline (Gryphon-Rider has +1 defense for no apparent reason) and as you yourself noted the Armored trait makes them vulnerable to armor piercing attacks, against which they have -1 def compared to Gryphon Rider at baseline. Furthermore, the Human t2 cavalry is drastically inferior to the Elven one, and thus Elves offer an all in all better choice for Dreads IMO (this is arguable OFC).

    True but despite armor piercing the armored attribute is a general pro to have, likewise shield despite overwhelm is very potent. As for practical defens the solid engineer knight got +4 more defens with shield up or 2 without compared to the gryphon, it is a significant added toughness advantange.

    Agreed on the Elven cavalry, it is the superior t2 cavalry unit but still i think human is the better choice for dread, high elves is the better race overall.

    The Armor trait gives +2 defense. ATM the only support unit with Armor is the Dwarven Forge Priest. I do agree that this does fit Human Priests – good suggestion 🙂 .

    Right you are, strangely units with it usually got +1 def more than those without, a balance thing i guess?

    #113392

    vota dc
    Member

    Human T2 cavalry just need promotion at knight, they always been boring both in AOW 1 and AOW 2 anyway. Bleeding wound could be shifted to bronze, so the unit will be both stronger and more useful.

    About knight maybe would be funny a ignore armor skill: 20% of chance to ignore armor so an enemy with 15 armor will have 10, but also a razorbow could have 10 defense instead of 8!

    #113394

    ExNihil
    Member

    1) Upping the production might help a great deal, how would it compare to goblins?

    2) A new ability for priests, called ‘Debilitate’, that lowers spirit protection. (like the goblin doctor who can make machines susceptible to poison damage)

    3) I like the flavor of Priests and Knights being devout, but I do acknowledge that it is a weakness rather than a strength. Maybe the Devout ability could be tweaked, for instance by adding +1 resistance. This would make the ability stronger when used outside of the theocrat spectrum and yet not overpowered when used by theocrats.

    4) You propose: Armor Piercing, Polearm, Overwhelm, Projectile Resistance, Hero Slayer. I think they would all suit the knight but, of course, he can’t have them all. My preference would be: Armor Piercing at tin medal, Overwhelm at bronze, Polearm at silver, Hero Slayer at gold along with Strong Will. No Crippling wounds. Devout trait should stay.

    5) Maybe there are no outstanding combinations with classes but I do not experience this as a problem, as all combinations are solid, which is the general theme of humans.

    6) I like your suggestion of adding water as a liked terrain. I think the underground dislike should remain.

    One more thing that I would consider a valid buff to humans is to have their light cavalry evolve into knights. It is one of my personal favorites.

    1. Goblins receive a discount in production costs that manifests in less gold and less mana per unit. An increase to the human proudction capacity will accelerate production a little in some circumstances but will not reduce the resource costs of units. Hence a Human player will not have the advantage of being able to buy more units that a Goblin player will.

    2. That could be cool, but as you can see from the Support units each gets one special ability (Iron Heart, Dragon Ancestry, Weaken, Guardian Flame, Stunning Touch, Throw Curse). Thus adding a new ability will break this mold and create a micro-imbalance between the support units.

    3. This would either give all theocrat units +1 resistance, which is a major buff, or create two seperate devouts. I think @Nullpunkt is correct when he understands it as not merely a superflous trait but an actual weakness. IMO it must be removed – if there needs to be a special new ability that fits the bill I suggest some form of “Dedicated” buff that will indeed give that unit +1 resistance and +20-40% spirit protection.

    4. Fair enough but you should keep in mind that ATM the Human Knight has less traits and abilities at baseline level then it should. Therefore the question is not so much what happens in Medals, although also relevant, as the question how Knight is at baseline level. I do agree that these traits when all appearing on the same unit will be excessive and there is a need to select 2 or 3 for baseline level and another 1 or 2 for medals. What would you selection be?

    5. True they are solid to a degree, yet every race should bring something unique to the table or else the game, at least in MP, will remain monotonous: 90% of players take Dwarf, Elf and/or Draconian – this is a fact, because these races are much more advantageous with any of the classes then the others. OFC the AI does not exploit every little trick and ability and doesn’t really operate at the level of human players so for SP this is less of a problem, but still – the game should be balanced at the Optimum as well.

    6. I’m glad you like it. I think subterranean should go as UG is 1/2 of the map which is a lot. There needs to be some more topographical diversity though in the UG which would solve it. Why do you think it should remain?

    #113462

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    Devout needs dropped from Humans, its out of place and serves no purpose.

    +5 Production yes.

    Polearm yes or change the weapon the T3 Cav is holding, flavorwise it makes no sense.

    And Humans should be the best Naval Race as they already have Mariner, we should expand upon that. They should be able to embark and move on the same turn, much like how you can disembark and move on the same turn.

    #113471

    ExNihil
    Member

    And Humans should be the best Naval Race as they already have Mariner, we should expand upon that. They should be able to embark and move on the same turn, much like how you can disembark and move on the same turn.

    This will introduce an IMBA mechanic for humans. I think adding liked terrain Water will make them even stronger on water because of morale bonus.

    #113530

    Be that as it may, what you write rather then explaining why Knight shouldn’t have projectile resistance applies more to the question whether Longbowman should have Armor Piercing – which IMO they definitely should.

    oh boy, that was a loong debate last time this came up. I had to find sources suggesting that, while the bodkin arrow wasn’t armor piercing, there were armor piercing square arrows or arrows with little rings on them (only tested on reproduction munition, or ordinary infantry, grade armor. elite men at arms equipment or “knightly” armor is too valuable to produce just for shooting arrows at it).

    Any way, armor piercing goes better with the crossbow than the longbow, especially since the dwarf crossbow is otherwise underwhelming.

    As for projectile resistance, why not? The Knight’s horse has barding, and the plate besides the shield. projectile resistance now works with both “dodging” units (like the dwarf assassin et al, or Sorcerer support) and super tough ones (the earth elemental), so I think it fits.

    #113551

    Gloweye
    Member

    About the priest, I really dont feel like he’s in a bad spot. Good, for both the devout needs to go as far as im concerned, but the priest doesn’t need a buff.

    The knight….Maybe. The shocktrooper isn’t a good example – a backstabbing shocktrooper with poison mastery is gonna hurt everyone, not just knights. That said, I think a “Improved Charge” would be very much in line for them. Also, Sprint would seem nice, to just squeeze throught that last meter to hit your enemy for hard…I could understand Polearm(But never on a medal. He’s not gonna change weapon after a promotion…), but that would take much from the unicity of the black knight. how about just upping their damage a bit? other possibility – give them a crippling wound variant thats got higher successs/higher potency. I think this ability is really underestimated by a lot of people. with a potency buff, you could potentially reduce an enemy’s action points to 1. That would make them very strong as long as you can hold your lines..

    #113576

    syntax_vi
    Member

    human t2 cavalry evolving to knights is a good idea.

    #113649

    ExNihil
    Member

    Any way, armor piercing goes better with the crossbow than the longbow, especially since the dwarf crossbow is otherwise underwhelming.

    Make this suggestion in the dwarf thread!

    As for projectile resistance, why not? The Knight’s horse has barding, and the plate besides the shield. projectile resistance now works with both “dodging” units (like the dwarf assassin et al, or Sorcerer support) and super tough ones (the earth elemental), so I think it fits.

    Yes!

    Shield is a powerful ability and more so when stacked with 13 def, knights are almost impervious against projectile attacks with shield up and therefore i don’t see the need for projectile resistance buff, overwhelm really is something given to big beetles as far as t3 cavalry goes(makes more sense with swords/axes).
    I don’t think knights should get it, will lead to a kind of homogenisation rather than uniqueness and diversity. Polearm is too much of a hard counter for certain units and in my view overpowered with their mounted benefits/ tier level and solid stats in mind, it is dangerous enough on a t2 cavalry platform(black rider) i rather not see it on t3 def heavy cavalry.

    Therefore if absolutely necessary(with suggested devout fix in mind) i thought removing crippling wounds from the medal and giving it from start, then with armor penetration at bronze it definitely would buff them more than adequately imo.

    Shield is a strong (not powerful) situational ability that means in certain situations and against that unit has +2 defense against ranged. It is less armored then the First-Born on an over-all basis but receives one less damage point if it is pointed at the shooting archers. I have no problem though with the armor rating of this unit but with its overall defense from projectiles – I think it should be the most resistant unit to projectiles, thus shield and projectile resistance IMO are a good combination. I would further suggest adding the Monster Slayer attribute at base line as this fits the concept of a knight (st. george for instance) and will be highly useful. I also think armor piercing is a necessary trait on a knight at base line. These would be sufficient.

    human t2 cavalry evolving to knights is a good idea.

    I agree this is a good idea- it will definitely make the human cavalry more worthwhile of their price tag and more interesting. Balance wise it might be problematic as it will give humans a very large advantage, but I think it should be beta-tested.

    #113749

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Shield is a strong (not powerful) situational ability that means in certain situations and against that unit has +2 defense against ranged. It is less armored then the First-Born on an over-all basis but receives one less damage point if it is pointed at the shooting archers. I have no problem though with the armor rating of this unit but with its overall defense from projectiles – I think it should be the most resistant unit to projectiles, thus shield and projectile resistance IMO are a good combination. I would further suggest adding the Monster Slayer attribute at base line as this fits the concept of a knight (st. george for instance) and will be highly useful. I also think armor piercing is a necessary trait on a knight at base line. These would be sufficient.

    Shield is at its best against projectile attacks, projectile attacker won’t be able to counter it like a melee attacker can with overwhelm. Knight is already the hardest t3 unit for archers to manage since we have to consider the speed of this unit as well, speed also means they are harder to flank. I really fail to see the necessity of this ability.

    It is a real balance problem when we think of how quickly the defens would become too high. More likely than not the defens will be at 16+2. A total of 18 defens when up against archers, add projectile resistance and knights on their way to kill archers would be at 20 defens. It is incredible scary for a unit that moves 6 hexes on the battle. Firstborns on the other hand at 4 hexes combat speed would only have 17 defens against archers, the 3 defens more than firstborns along side the speed to prevent kiting is what really frightens me. I’m trying my best to see your argument but i can’t really see the need for it. If any more defens was to be added i would then prefer +1 defens rather than projectile resistance as knights struggle the most in melee.

    Monster slayer is interesting, IIRC they had something like it in AOW2:SM. I opinion Devout is the highest fix priority for knights, after that there is room for some improvement, he could use Arm Pen or monster slayer(i prefer the first one) but both along with projectile resistance is well… over the top to say the least.

    #113752

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Devout needs dropped from Humans, its out of place and serves no purpose.

    Unless it is improved for none theocrats, i agree. I prefer they make it useful instead as it is quite unique, good for diversity.

    #113790

    ExNihil
    Member

    As I wrote before “I think it should be the most resistant unit to projectiles” and the reason is that it is the only t3 unit that has no inherent way to deal with city walls and must go through the gates. Furthermore, it is a heavily armored unit by concept.

    Shield gives a unit +2 defense against non-flanking attacks (melee and ranged) and is hard countered (-3) with overwhelm. Projectile resistance gives the unit a +2 against ranged attacks but does not effect melee attack. At baseline the Human Knight has 13 defense and he receives +2 defense as he levels up to Gold. Thus my proposal would look like this:

    Baseline defense against non-flanking melee attack: 15, ranged: 17, flanking melee: 13, flanking ranged: 15. Melee attack with overwhelm: 10.

    Gold-medal defense against non-flanking melee attack: 17, ranged: 19, flanking melee: 15, flanking ranged: 17. Melee attack with overwhelm: 12.

    Please consider that the following units possess the Overwhelm trait:
    1. Orc Greatsword
    2. Orc Black-Knight
    3. Orc Shock Trooper
    4. Goblin Warg-Rider
    5. Goblin Big-Beetle
    6. Human Longswordman
    7. Draconian Crusher
    8. Draconian Flyer

    As for speed meaning they are harder to flank: this is only correct in specific situations. In siege battles and once the unit engages flanking occurs rather easily. Again, as I wrote in my original post I think knights should be clearly the superior t3 unit in pitched battle situations and also become more effective in siege warfare. You assume it is the best t3 unit against archers because it is fast. This is incorrect – you have two t3 units which are flying – one of which is as fast, meaning that in most circumstance they can simply fly over obstacles, enemy lines and so forth and of course go over walls. The knight needs to take the long and hard way in each battle situation.

    After further consideration I do agree that giving this unit Projectile Resistance, Armor Piercing and Monster Slayer will be excessive, but disagree that it only needs one trait (either armor piercing or monster slayer in your post). I think that the devout needs to go and be replaced by Monster Slayer which fits the concept. I would prefer to see projectile resistance on this unit because it will give it the edge it needs in pitched battle and siege warfare but armor piercing also makes perfect sense given the gigantic lance. Finally I think it should receive Sprint which is a 1 time use ability on the one hand, and on the other it will give the Knight the distinct mobility edge it should have in pitched combat.

    #113796

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    True but despite armor piercing the armored attribute is a general pro to have, likewise shield despite overwhelm is very potent

    Shield offers +2 defense when not being flanked, this is indeed very potent.
    Armored offers nothing, it is purely a weakness. The +2 defense is already incorporated in the unit stats.

    Right you are, strangely units with it usually got +1 def more than those without, a balance thing i guess?

    This is the most prevalent indication that I am right in my previous statement.

    2. That could be cool, but as you can see from the Support units each gets one special ability (Iron Heart, Dragon Ancestry, Weaken, Guardian Flame, Stunning Touch, Throw Curse). Thus adding a new ability will break this mold and create a micro-imbalance between the support units.

    You are right. Dammit.

    3. This would either give all theocrat units +1 resistance, which is a major buff, or create two seperate devouts. I think @Nullpunkt is correct when he understands it as not merely a superflous trait but an actual weakness. IMO it must be removed – if there needs to be a special new ability that fits the bill I suggest some form of “Dedicated” buff that will indeed give that unit +1 resistance and +20-40% spirit protection.

    +1 resistance for most of the theocrat’s units, a major buff indeed, but I can live with that.

    4. Fair enough but you should keep in mind that ATM the Human Knight has less traits and abilities at baseline level then it should. Therefore the question is not so much what happens in Medals, although also relevant, as the question how Knight is at baseline level. I do agree that these traits when all appearing on the same unit will be excessive and there is a need to select 2 or 3 for baseline level and another 1 or 2 for medals. What would you selection be?

    Ok, with crippling wounds on the baseline then. (and still: Armor Piercing at tin medal, Overwhelm at bronze, Polearm at silver, Hero Slayer at gold along with Strong Will.)

    6. I’m glad you like it. I think subterranean should go as UG is 1/2 of the map which is a lot. There needs to be some more topographical diversity though in the UG which would solve it. Why do you think it should remain?

    Because I think it is appropriate for humans to dislike living underground as much as it is for them to dislike blight. Having races with an aversion to underground slightly increases the value of earth sphere. In terms of balance, though, I am inclined to agree with you.

    #113830

    ExNihil
    Member

    Because I think it is appropriate for humans to dislike living underground as much as it is for them to dislike blight. Having races with an aversion to underground slightly increases the value of earth sphere. In terms of balance, though, I am inclined to agree with you.

    Well, you are correct to a degree – Orcs and Draconians don’t seem to mind though. I think the UG isnt a small cave, its a world on to its own with huge cathedral chambers that stretch for kilometeres and in which literally metropolises can be fitted in. Therefore I think that there needs to be a topographical diversity in the UG and that humans should not dislike all of it inherently. Please see the RMG balancing discussion thread in which I raise that point (and help me kick start the discussion 🙂 – i added a link to the first post in this thread.

    I offer the following re-balance of the knight:

    Human Knight Traits: 160g/10mana, 70hp, 36mp, 13def, 11res. Melee attack 16.
    Starting Traits Walking, Cavalry, Mariner, Charge, Mounted, Armored, Shield, Monster Slayer [instead of devout], Armor Piercing or Projectile Resistance.

    Trooper: +1 resistance
    Veteran: +1 defense, Inflict Crippling Wounds
    Expert: +1 resistance
    Elite: +1 defense, Strong Will, Hero Slayer

    – of these the only unique trait is Shield. When leveled receives Inflict Crippling Wounds and Strong Will.

    #113872

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    As I wrote before “I think it should be the most resistant unit to projectiles” and the reason is that it is the only t3 unit that has no inherent way to deal with city walls and must go through the gates. Furthermore, it is a heavily armored unit by concept.

    Shield gives a unit +2 defense against non-flanking attacks (melee and ranged) and is hard countered (-3) with overwhelm. Projectile resistance gives the unit a +2 against ranged attacks but does not effect melee attack. At baseline the Human Knight has 13 defense and he receives +2 defense as he levels up to Gold. Thus my proposal would look like this:

    While projectile resistance could be motivated in the case of a flanking occurring it becomes too much defens imo once stacked with shield and defens stance, thats the stance a knight will be at when moving towards archers in battle or when projectiles are able to reach them. I really think the knight could use other things more than projectile resistance as he is already strong against projectiles, but they can’t have everything unfortunately. Devout fix and arm pen is my vote for things knights really could use and stay within balance.

    Technically knights will not fear overwhelm units except one or two of them and druid/warlord spell. The main problem with overwhelm is once it stacks with other abilities such as arm pen, devout slayer etc, thus devout is a real culprit(at least arm pen vulnerability comes with armored trait). Devout adds no such benefit.

    As for speed meaning they are harder to flank: this is only correct in specific situations. In siege battles and once the unit engages flanking occurs rather easily. Again, as I wrote in my original post I think knights should be clearly the superior t3 unit in pitched battle situations and also become more effective in siege warfare. You assume it is the best t3 unit against archers because it is fast. This is incorrect – you have two t3 units which are flying – one of which is as fast, meaning that in most circumstance they can simply fly over obstacles, enemy lines and so forth and of course go over walls. The knight needs to take the long and hard way in each battle situation.

    All units and the knight included are prone to get flanked, speed allows to outmaneuvere slower units and attack favorable targets, firstborn for instance while having 14 flanking defens against projectiles are more likely to be flanked or engaged in melee combat forcing defens stance off the next turn for archers to benefit from, Knights have the freedom through speed to better choose their targets and maintain the higher defens. When knights are your main unit in siege battles they are pretty much forced to use siege tools, once the walls are down they play like they normally would. otherwise fliers wall crushers etc should work as distraction keeping defenders off your knight’s vulnerable flank. There is no denying the knight is a worse siege unit but thats why he is tougher, just needs some fine tuning imo not projectile resistance.

    Neither the gryphon or draco fliers can resist projectiles like knights, they are going to take significantly more damage. Sure they are alot better attacking archer units at siege warfare and preventing damage done but thats comes with the ability to fly, for other battles i am pretty sure the enemy units will have more trouble killing knights than those two with archers. 36mp is still alot maneuverability despite objects interfering sometimes. 15 def is the amount of def knights would have with projectile resistance on flanking attacks(as you listed)then archers once they have the opportunity to attack a ”vulnerable” knight wont even then be able to do any real damage , perhaps that is the idea but i don’t like it. 13 def against flanking projectiles is already an respectable amount, 20 defens with things stacked is insane imo.

    After further consideration I do agree that giving this unit Projectile Resistance, Armor Piercing and Monster Slayer will be excessive, but disagree that it only needs one trait (either armor piercing or monster slayer in your post). I think that the devout needs to go and be replaced by Monster Slayer which fits the concept. I would prefer to see projectile resistance on this unit because it will give it the edge it needs in pitched battle and siege warfare but armor piercing also makes perfect sense given the gigantic lance. Finally I think it should receive Sprint which is a 1 time use ability on the one hand, and on the other it will give the Knight the distinct mobility edge it should have in pitched combat.

    I suggested one trait(Arm Pen) along with devout fix so that would be two new strengths, adding a third one would be unnecessary imo. Sprint is kinda hard to motivate on such a heavy armored unit, it is already a bit unrealistic they have 36mp with so much armor but sprint really fits light cavalry… how about giving that to the human t2 cavalry instead?

    #113876

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Armored offers nothing, it is purely a weakness. The +2 defense is already incorporated in the unit stats.

    What i mean is units with armored trait usually have +1 more defens than those without, thats why i suggested armored trait on priests. I take it they would have 1 more armor then and i assume knights without armored trait would have 12 defens like the gryphons, fliers beetles.

    #113879

    ExNihil
    Member

    You convinced me Projectile Resistance is too much. I still think devout should go, ofc if it is fixed in some substantial way that is a different story – but at the moment it is an extra weakness and no more. I agree with you regarding sprint – it will fit better on t2 cavalry, and can give them something a little special, which they lack. Saying all of this I think the knights need no less then 3 new traits at baseline to be balanced relative to the other t3 units, my proposal is this:

    Human Knight Traits: 160g/10mana, 70hp, 36mp, 13def, 11res. Melee attack 16.
    Starting Traits Walking, Cavalry, Mariner, Charge, Mounted, Armored, Shield, Monster Slayer [instead of devout], Armor Piercing and Inflict Crippling Wounds [moved from tin medal].

    Trooper: +1 resistance
    Veteran: +1 defense,
    High Morale or Warrior’s Honor or Inflict Bleeding Wounds
    Expert: +1 resistance
    Elite: +1 defense, Strong Will, Hero Slayer

    #113900

    You convinced me Projectile Resistance is too much. I still think devout should go, ofc if it is fixed in some substantial way that is a different story

    well, how about the knight starts with the effects of the theocrat’s devout soldiers upgrade? That way, they’ve got 20% spirit resistance from the get go, and are harder to mind control. You could also add in one resistance point.

    You could also add holy champions at gold (rather than hero slaying, since that is more a rogue and warlord specific thing), so that they have a reason to keep devout (which I like for flavor).

    #113908

    Kanalin
    Member

    I think it would be cool if the Knight could disengage and charge repeatedly once they get stuck into combat; would also give the unit a nice flavour. Something like a 1 turn CD version of sprint that doesn’t add any extra distance, or a form of Martial Arts that only works for AoO. Would take a bit of balancing but would give the Knight a cool niche amongst the racial T3s (and add some flavour/uniqueness to humans as a whole).

    #113914

    ExNihil
    Member

    well, how about the knight starts with the effects of the theocrat’s devout soldiers upgrade? That way, they’ve got 20% spirit resistance from the get go, and are harder to mind control. You could also add in one resistance point.

    You could also add holy champions at gold (rather than hero slaying, since that is more a rogue and warlord specific thing), so that they have a reason to keep devout (which I like for flavor).

    20% spirit resistance will be absorbed by Strong Will at gold medal, thus it will be much less impressive. Giving them +1 resistance is not justified by their racial attributes and I do believe these stats should be directly linked with them. Holy Champions will not make devout any more effective, it will only mean that they have +5 fire dmg against devout and undead units. Furthermore, the idea of devout on knight seems to stem directly from christian religiosity – this is a fantasy game, there is absolutely no reason why humans should have the religious elements of the middle ages chivalry in them (and orcs or other t3 shouldn’t). The emphasis, if anything, should be on the loyalty of knights as vassals of the leader through the equivalent of the homagium – thus a trait called Oath of Fealty or something along these lines will be much more appropriate in my opinion.

    I do suggest though that we try to find combination that work using the existing traits and abilities and assume that devout will not be reworked in a way that solves our problem – it is after all primarily a theocrat trait that was, i believe, added to humans almost as an afterthought (a not too well thought out afterthought as well).

    #113917

    urthermore, the idea of devout on knight seems to stem directly from christian religiosity – this is a fantasy game, there is absolutely no reason why humans should have the religious elements of the middle ages chivalry in them (and orcs or other t3 shouldn’t). The emphasis, if anything, should be on the loyalty of knights as vassals of the leader through the equivalent of the homagium – thus a trait called Oath of Fealty or something along these lines will be much more appropriate in my opinion.

    Errr….in the lore, Humans are Archons in waiting. They alone have the spark of the divine within them which allows them to ascend to being Archons. This is why Knights get devout, ditto Priests.

    Archons seed entire worlds with Humans and allow them to freely choose good or evil, the ability to choose being critical. If/when they choose to be good, they become Archons.

    In the first game, this was established, because Elves are supposed to prepare the way for Humans. However, Inioch, leader of the Elves, was disinclined to abdicate, and tried to control the Humans. That didn’t go well, and the Humans butchered the Elves.

    The remaining Elves split into 2- the wood Elves, who were “good” and the dark Elves, who were “evil” but prior to AoW3, these 2 branches unified, to give us the High Elves.

    Also, you are forgetting that the proto-typical “Knight” was something out of King Arthur, the very epitome of chivalry and devoutness…

    #113918

    So, it isn’t an after thought, it’s integral to the vision of Humans in this world.

    I’ve said it before that you need to consider the lore and theme of each race when you talk about redoing their numbers and abilities, and not focus purely on strengths/weaknesses.

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