HUMAN Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions HUMAN Balance Discussion

This topic contains 122 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 7 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 123 total)
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  • #114764

    jakjak
    Member

    Inflict crippling wounds should still be an upgrade it can be very useful, but otherwise looks good to me.

    #114775

    Ayenara
    Member

    I think Human is in a good spot right now. It’s being a bit overshadowed by other races because they are usually better, but Human isn’t weak by any means. Mariner is subtly powerful, and your starting Throne usually has a lot of fertile plains around it making Human starting cities the happiest of all the races. The extra +5 production is usually worth atleast 1 turn early on, and often even more as it can be the difference between 1 turn units and 2 turn units. Human Priests also have the best healing ability of all the races, and Inflict Daze on Gold medal making them one of the best support units to have in an army.

    The problems with Human is that the Devout trait on the Priest and Knight doesn’t do much at the moment, but that has more to do with Devout than with Humans. If the Devout mechanics change then these units might become much more interesting.
    Secondly, the way production works in this game, sometimes the extra +5 production is completely useless. If spillover production could be carried over from one task to the other it would be better. Thirdly, the Cavalry should get a minor ability buff to keep it on par with other races. Perhaps starting with Inflict Crippling Wounds, Armor Piercing, or Shield. I like the discussion about Knights, a small buff could be nice.

    #114821

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think Human is in a good spot right now. It’s being a bit overshadowed by other races because they are usually better, but Human isn’t weak by any means. Mariner is subtly powerful, and your starting Throne usually has a lot of fertile plains around it making Human starting cities the happiest of all the races. The extra +5 production is usually worth atleast 1 turn early on, and often even more as it can be the difference between 1 turn units and 2 turn units. Human Priests also have the best healing ability of all the races, and Inflict Daze on Gold medal making them one of the best support units to have in an army.

    They are not in a good spot, they are mediocre – better then Goblin and Orc but not as good as the other 3 – depending on what one wants. Every race should offer an interesting and competative choice. The only thing that they really have is Iron Heart, which is the best healing on support (+1def +1res), Mariner and Fertile Plains. The +5 makes almost no difference and disappears because of game mechanics. Their units are mediocre in every category, with the exception of daze on gold medal on priest (Spirit is a very asymetrical attack that is quite weak against a lot of opponents).

    I agree of course with your second paragraph.

    Devout is an actual weakness, not just a useless trait though. I suggest Sprint for Cavalry, which was already suggested in this thread and I wouldn’t mind another trait on them TBH as they are a boring unit – shield might be too much though.

    The +10 Production proposal is the fix for this given the current production system. If spillover production is introduced then it will be a different ballgame and +5 will be effective to some extant (still small though).

    Any suggestions to how to improve the cavalry people?

    #115396

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Production buff indirectly buffs all human units, also necessary to consider when discussing individual unit buffs.

    @exnihil The latest knights suggestion is too good, admittedly the proposed stats are very attractive but i don’t see how it can be balanced relative to the other t3 units. Although i wrote that broken spritit had to come with spirit damage i didn’t mean knights should have the ability. Knights would pretty much be unbeatable with it. Conceptually the ability fits a death knight/ Paladin type of unit, knights are physical oriented warriors. I do like the progressive spirit resistance suggestion and earlier mind immunity. It is quite a buff though that also needs to be considered.

    I think you underestimate knights and priests, admittedly Knights need a little buffing but your suggestions so far have IMO been over the top sorry.

    Knights are right now capable warriors. They are more offensively than firstborns and defensively stronger than shock trooper, it is the typical generalist unit. What they lack is siege capabilities, this is notable compared to gryphons/fliers and to some extent big beetles however those can’t compare to the knight physically.

    This is conceptually as it was meant to be, practically the knight is currently lacking a few things to make it truly so. Those things are Devout obviously dealt with(yes this is unbalanced, DEVS should not ignore this like have so far) and something little added offensively. Starting with crippling wounds is a sweet buff right there and armor piercing means they would become better against their main t3 physical competiion(firstborns, shock troopers). You add those 3 and suddenly the knight is looking good, why exactly would you want to give them a very powerful ability like broken spirit on top of that? Broken spirit: -2 def- 2 dmg – 2 res debuff with 3 x melee attacks is overpowered with he’s stats and speed relative to the others, in fact take any of the racial t3 unit and give them broken spirit, it is then overpowered.

    Human priests are quite good, not because of Daze at gold medal but mainly since they heal/buff both in combat and heal on the strategical map. This is a strong human advantage. The problem is that humans become to dependent on the priest since he is invaluable for a successful creeping and recovering, unfortunately it means there is not much variation for humans if they whish to compete well. The temple change will therefore nerf humans the most out of all races.

    Given how the knight is right now, it is evident that the DEVs considers them balanced like this relative to the other t3. It is unlikely they would buff them to any extreme amounts. Playing with knights quite a bit i would agree except for the obvious unbalanced issue devout and armor piercing that really should be one of their traits.

    Consider the knights traits for a moment.
    charge
    Shield
    36MP/70HP/11RES/13DEF/16dmg
    Crippling wounds(bronze)
    Strong will(gold)
    Devout(unbalanced weakness)

    Now change that into:
    Charge
    Shield
    36MP/70HP/11RES/13DEF/16dmg
    Crippling wounds(bronze)
    Devout(Made good)
    Armor Piercing
    Strong will(Gold)

    How could they possible not be good enough with those stats? Add the dragon slayer and it is looking very good indeed(still good without it).

    Also Worth mentioning is that Knights do take full uppgrade advantage(no other race does)from the two production based class, that shouldn’t be entirely ignored IMO.

    And regarding the cavalry. I think the human cavalry could use Sprint, making them attractive alternative to priests, most players will always go for the shrine(Tempel, next patch)

    #115406

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well,

    First your proposal hinges on “devout made good”, which this entire discussion tries to bypass by finding alternatives. Second it does not look sufficiently good at all. Third Dragon Slayer is a situational trait that really doesn’t add much.

    As for cav. I agree, but it wouldn’t make them more attractive in comparison to priests – priests are good units with powerful heal buff and daze on gold, human cav are mediocre and not very powerful. They also lose their usefulness very quickly.

    #115440

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    I doubt devout is going to be removed, in that case it is a buff nonetheless. Yes dragon slayer is suggested for that very reason(added flavor)

    #115443

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, in the case Devout remains and still has no function – which is what we are discussing here. Then the question is what will balance the knight. You don’t like my suggestion, ok but yours assumes that giving this unit armor piercing and dragon slayer will balance it out relative the others. Well I beg to differ – it requires at least one other ability that will make it truly remarkable in a pitched battle, as it is by far the worst racial t3 for a siege. Suggestions? What will you do?

    #115447

    Ericridge
    Member

    human t2 cavalry evolving to knights is a good idea.

    This won’t happen because evolution as it is in the game is something awarded to crappy units. And Human Cavalry isn’t crappy XD

    It can be fairly easy to get six cavalry out in an army and smash stuff til they become elite and get very early armies of knights. Its only slowed down a little bit due to level up limited to once per battle.

    #115451

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    I have to remind you devout is absent in your own suggestions, that’s what I assumed the discussion was being based on, even suggested removing it in your first post.

    In the case it remains as a vulnerability with few benefits forever, i then like the idea of progressive spirit resistance/ bronze medal mind control immunity, i think thats far more powerful than monster slayer however the later could be considered instead. However i do think the knight right now is far from the weakest t3, both the goblin(big beetles are the worst IMO) and orc i consider less useful overall. I even prefer the knight over gryphons sometimes.

    To be honest i think it is a failure to just leave devout as it is, in future content i hope it will be of some real use for humans(unless removed/replaced) until then i think at least armor piercing with possible production buff should more than suffice.

    #115457

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Regarding knight’s relative siege weakness, this is my experience with them.

    Inherently they may look weak, lacking any direct siege tool. Lately i am starting to prefer them over shocktroopers and sometimes even firstborns in siege battles. Those two have wall climbing, however the shocktroopers low resistance makes it very hard utilize in any real siege battle scenario. With orcs i am still required to attract fire with summons, machines etc since they won’t last long against focus fire, knights do last longer against projectiles and magic attacks once the walls has been taken care of with siege weapons(will also reach the defenders faster). In practice i have had more siege success with knights than shocktroopers, this is mainly the shock troopers sucking vs magic but at least i don’t consider knight’s the worst unit for this type of battle anymore.

    Firstborns are slow and despite sturdy will take extra turns of fire from the defenders, once on the wall they are vulnerable to focus fire due to low defens. Since firstborns are so inherently expensive i am lately reluctant to send them in without siege support, the difference is that they take longer to reach defenders than knight due to slowness though admittedly against any heavy fire damage it is the superior unit, like for all battles including fire damage.

    Knight’s also have a wonderful synergy with rogue hero’s, wall climbing knights are alot more effective than shocktroopers or firstborns, same is true with druid hero’s and the vine spell. For light defended siege battles the knight’s speed and shield does make them decent there provided they have some support/distraction.

    #115459

    ExNihil
    Member

    I have to remind you devout is absent in your own suggestions, that’s what I assumed the discussion was being based on, even suggested removing it in your first post.

    These suggestion were done with the following assumption: Devout is a trait given to humans as a supposedly good trait, hence balancing them out respective to the other classes. It is actually a bad trait and I really think it should go away. Hence the suggestions were done with it removed but while still assuming that its spot should be filled. After my initial proposal there was a long discussion and I suggested to fill the concept by using Hero Slayer, which I then amended to Dragon Slayer, and then to Monster Slayer – which looked to me as the best possible trait here by both fulfilling the concept of the knight and giving substantial benefit to this unit. After a lot of arguments I agreed to dump this idea for Dragon Slayer because I felt more then 1 slayer trait will be OP. As for the other traits. I suggest you re-read the first page of this thread- IMO the Knight should get a boost in combat that will make it the strongest t3 in a pitched battle. Armor piercing is great and I initially wanted 2 other combat traits. You convinced me it was 2 much and that these were 2 powerful. After a long discussion it seemed to me that the best gold medal trait here will be inflict spirit breaking. You opposed that without spirit damage this can’t work, so I went with that as well. Here I want to add that spirit damage is tricky – quite a bit of Theo units have high res. and Dread units are immune.

    To be honest i think it is a failure to just leave devout as it is, in future content i hope it will be of some real use for humans(unless removed/replaced) until then i think at least armor piercing with possible production buff should more than suffice.

    Well, sure if devout has content that is beneficial and it is a powerful trait then great. But the entire idea of this thread is to draw attention to the issues that need attention and to draw possible solutions. I strongly believe that the community should discuss these things and come up with ideas – this helps the dev team, helps the game and helps the players who love this game. Also – there are a bunch of beta-testers playing things and trying them out.

    Finally – Armor piercing is not enough to make the Knight balanced. This is the only t3 unit that has no way of dealing with walls other then go through a gate/breach. It is made for pitched combat, and it is not dominant there. I don’t want Knights to be comfortably mediocre – better then some units and worse then others in most situations – i want it to shine and be a very attractive unit in a asymmetric way.

    So I am asking you, what are your suggestions?

    #115461

    Ericridge
    Member

    Knight gets a new taunt on rank up, Duel. Challenged unit melees with the knight until there is only one! Basically both units get unlimited retaliations against each other.

    #115474

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Well it will be very hard for me to convince you since you obviously consider them underpowered outside of the devout context. I consider the knight the best generalist unit out of the t3, this is their strength only undermined sometimes by the too many counters(devout), that is unbalanced and needs the DEVS attention.

    I want to attack something i would generally prefer them over firstborns, big beetles and even shocktroopers if up against any priests, magic involved(both standard and siege battles)

    Defensively i would generally prefer them over shocktroopers, big beetles , gryphons and fliers.

    I don’t see anything really wrong with them except my previous criticism, the hp is solid, defens is generally top notch, resistance is decent , speed is good. Damage with charge is deadly. They perfom in all kinds of battle as i would expect from them apart from vulnerability stacking traits, once again that is unbalanced with the units concept in mind.

    Armor piercing suggested with Devout is more than enough in my mind, i reckon the Devs wouldn’t go much beoynd that if/when they decide to change things, of course discussing possibilities never hurts. I’d really like the Devs to add Armor piercing to knights(It fits so good, and knights could use the boost) but i am doubtful they would listen even to that.

    As far as what i am suggesting, i already provided you with an answer… what more could i add?

    #115483

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    I could add, since knight is not generally the weak spot of humans(in the middle of t3 balance). Since they lack something special apart from the priest on the lower tiers. I do believe in a general buff to this race and of course that also buff the knights, the human production is a good focus point.

    The weakest human troops are relative to other races: Irregular, infantry, cavalry. The archers is nothing special either. The human city should imo be more efficient than it currently is, i would further suggest removing the artic terrain penalty for this race, seriously some humans do even like cold weather.

    There was an interesting suggestion made, adding water as liked terrain, however i do not know how balanced that would turn out to be.

    #115494

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, my original post addresses all of these issues. I would be happy to discuss other subjects than the knight :).

    You are correct we have very different opinions about this unit and its battle performance, I suggest you take a look in the DWARF Balance Discussion regarding the First Born and also see what @vota dc wrote there in the first page. I would most definitely not take this unit against supports, and I would in general prefer all t3 units but Beetle to this one and my choice would depend on class: Rogue I would go with flyer for infantry, Warlord I would go with either flyer or first-born for infantry depending on how much I need flight or Gryphon for Cavalry, Dread I would go with Gryphon for Cavalry – the mobility advantage really makes a difference.

    Be that as it may, no point in trying to convince you of this point. So, I am happy to go and speak about other issues. What do you think of the other suggestions I had in my original post?

    #115521

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Knight’s also have a wonderful synergy with rogue hero’s, wall climbing knights are alot more effective than shocktroopers or firstborns, same is true with druid hero’s and the vine spell. For light defended siege battles the knight’s speed and shield does make them decent there provided they have some support/distraction.

    This works even better if you have one of those spells that replenishes movement points, like Quick Dash. *evil grin*

    #115806

    ExNihil
    Member

    I would like to ask for your opinion regarding my proposal to give humans a +gold bonus per city. An interesting alternative is to give a +10-15% on empire gold bonus as well.

    #115876

    Why a gold bonus? Where’s the lore justification? Humans are the better organised race out there, ergo the production bonus, which is supposed to make up for them being average in combat. Why extra gold? Dwarves should get that, as they are supposed to be best at extracting minerals and ores, or Haflings as they are the best Traders.

    Anyway, regarding Humans, if Cavalry can become Knights, would that be enough to make them more interesting?

    Their cavalry is very average (not bad, not great, just in the middle) but if they can become Knights, it gives Humans a cool ability/gimmick that no-one else has (t2 becoming a t3 unit) and it makes so much sense imo, from a game mechanics, balance, and lore point of view!

    #115878

    Also, true Knights have some counters, but in my experience it is rare to fight an army that has all of these counters:

    devout – holy champions (this one is pretty rare!)
    mounted – polearm
    armoured – armour piercing
    shield – overwhelm

    I suppose it’s difficult to compare t3, because T3 aren’t necessarily supposed to be good at the same things, and if you look at the Glutton for example, it’s defence is lower than most t1. This is a unit that you don’t use against other T4 units, or even T3, but is purpose built to take on t1 units, and hordes, sort of the opposite to most T4, who go down fast to numbers.

    #115882

    ExNihil
    Member

    You live in a late-capitalist country, you know why more gold! Commerce, Humans are a mercantile race – I assume this is their primary quality as a matter of fact, not actually being Chinese labor platoons but rather the fact that industry is pushed through the activities of merchants and markets. That is the “lore” justification, or if you wish a socio-historical one there was a work by the Sociologist Max Weber called The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, which establishes the fact that there is a relation between puritanism and the accumulation and generation of capital, which can fit nicely here. As for the idea, it is meant as a way of making this race more attractive and interesting and as an alternative to the currently bust production bonus. You can see my original post in which I explain all of this and say why I think it will be cool.

    Cavalry evolving into Knight would be seriously IMBA I think, it wouldn’t be very hard to level these units to gold, especially when using Theocrat, and the result will be multiple stacks of knights quite early. Also, it is quite common to start with 2 cavalry and to be able to buy these in inns, thus it would be even more IMBA.

    I do agree it would be a cool gimmick though, but I think the best path to go is simply improve the existing units. One way to make the human cavalry attractive is through its price, that and adding Spring and you got a nice unit.

    #116049

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    What do you think of the other suggestions I had in my original post?

    Well i do think humans could have an even more efficient city. Indirectly by adding or removing liked/disliked terrain types would lead to increased production/gold. In particular i find the water terrain suggestion very interesting and lore friendly.

    I don’t like the +10 gold suggestion though, humans should stay productive IMO, as for the production bonus there is definitely room for improvement, +10 production could potentially be a little OP early game? unsure. I agree that Humans needs to have have a stronger city bonus than most other races since the bulk of their units are just average, no real bright spots except the priest sometimes, although the necessity to buff individual human units may decrease with general buffs.

    #116061

    Nollpunkt
    Member

    Also, true Knights have some counters, but in my experience it is rare to fight an army that has all of these counters:

    devout – holy champions (this one is pretty rare!)
    mounted – polearm
    armoured – armour piercing
    shield – overwhelm

    Devout slayer is more common than the respective champion traits, for instance any rogue hero can easily access it along with armor piercing for a +5 damage boost vs knights. The knight designed to be good generalist combat units should not lose this advantage so easily say against something like a draconian flyer who with the previous traits in mind on top of overwhelm and high damage becomes disturbingly powerful against knights. At least if the trait responsible those vulnerabilities added something proportionally useful, thats not the case unfortunately.

    #116110

    Draxynnic
    Member

    There’s not really anything in past AoW lore to suggest humans are good traders. If anything, in fact, they have a tendency towards xenophobia, which will be a hindrance to trading with outside populations. As BBB said, it’s typically been the halflings that are known for their mercantile spirit.

    #118262

    Yeah, Haflings for the best traders, and they controlled the United Cities in the first game, which was like New York and London combined in the Aow1 universe! They made the most money but they weren’t serious enough to save it lol.

    Dwarves for their love of gold and superior equipment, typically reflected in their stuff costing more. They were also actually slower in the previous games, with 24 mp when the average was 26 (along with Haflings and Goblins). Imo, from a lore point of view, there’s room for Dwarves to gain more gold from mines to reflect that they are supposed to be the best at this. Read the description of Prospectors to see what I mean. I think +12 instead of +10 from mines would be useful.

    #118286

    Gloweye
    Member

    (for easy reference, Prospector lore: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarves#Dwarf_Prospector (Press expand twice))

    @BBB

    I really like that suggestion. maybe something simliar could be done with the other racial bonusses, like elves/research and the like? gold structures are the most common among structures, but the other bonusses could be adjusted according to rarity…

    #118300

    vota dc
    Member

    Lorewise Humans shouldn’t have the production too. They are famous for being prolific, quick learner and inventor (dwarves – humans is like China – Europe….China invented gunpowder but Europe discovered its real power, in aow we have flamer invented for cooking but adapted as a war machine by humans).

    Since goblins have already +10% growth and high elves have already the research bonus, then Humans could have a quick medal bonus.

    #118389

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The Europe-China comparison seems off – IIRC China also progressed to handguns. It was more that for a range of reasons China stopped there, while Europe continued on towards the Industrial Revolution.

    In AoW, both dwarfs and humans are hardworking compared to other races, but in different ways: dwarves go for quality over quantity, which slows them down, while humans have more of a concept of producing large amounts of stuff that’s good enough.

    #118504

    vota dc
    Member

    Humans are less naive than Dwarves in invention for example from Air Galley description

    It is commonly held that the humans stole the idea for their Air Galley from the Dwarves. As usual, the humans took the benign transport and turned it into a powerful weapon.

    #118525

    It is commonly held that the humans stole the idea for their Air Galley from the Dwarves. As usual, the humans took the benign transport and turned it into a powerful weapon.

    It’s a shame that transportation and flying got changed because the air galley was the most assymetric t4 there was.

    If you had something that could hit it, it would lose, and lose hard, but flying made it invulnerable to most unit, and flying + unlimited range made it pretty damned sweet :).

    I wonder if it could be retooled as a flying or floating ranged destroyer type unit, so flying + ballista + cannon with medals, but low defence and hp, machine status. Basically, a flying glass cannon. Would be interesting as a t3 unit if they expanded the t3 racial units roster :). It’d be like a frigate, but all terrain. It could work.

    Anyway, dreams for a mod I Guess.

    #118540

    Gloweye
    Member

    I was thinking about the airship to. You might be able to have a mechanic “take flight” and “land”, which would make you unreachable for the land targets. Then you could have around 5 shots or something, and NEED and engineer to reload, for which you would have to land.

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