I just realized I actually hate Ghouls – consider a change:

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions I just realized I actually hate Ghouls – consider a change:

This topic contains 77 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  overlorddarkslash 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #208664

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Ok, my problem is that “undead” kills PART of the race – a very selective part.

    All characteristics keep the same – even Charm and Seduce works on Ghouls, all racial specialities are there EXCEPT:
    1) 100% Blight damage; too much; makes Goblin 40% Res useless – and Blight damage in general, which is bad, since it’s for ALL units not just for machines and for a price; max Blight should be 60, with 40 being ok as well.
    2) Fast Healing, Wetland Foraging, Victory Rush, Fishing; easy solution: just drop regular 6 HP reg for undead. Reduce Heal Undead. Case closed.

    All race specialities would be kept!

    I mean, if corpses can keep seduce…

    Ok, let me add, that this is ONLY Ghoul undead; not Class units. Class units can have whatever is cool, no problem. This is just for RACIAL units. So practically spoken, the Ghoul and Undead traits should be changed.

    #208665

    I heard they hate you too :P.

    In all honesty, you need to give more details of your proposal. I highly doubt this will be changed now because Ghouls are integral to the Necromancer and any change there will have effects, so the question of is it worth it? is particularly pertinent.

    You may have better luck thinking of ways to alter Ghouls without altering Ghouls, for example, changed to the Embalmer’s Guild chain.

    #208666

    Zaskow
    Member

    I mean, if corpses can keep seduce…

    Actually, they seduce/charm in unnatural (magical?) way. That’s why Bards can charm other races.
    On topic…
    I agree with you suggestion. A lot units with blight immunity is bad thing for balance.

    #208668

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ BBB
    The aim is simply this:

    Limit the changes that come with the trait “Ghoul” (and by association UNDEAD), so that all racial traits have full effect.

    That would mean: the combined effect of Ghoul and Undead should not add up to more than 60% resistance (so that Goblins 40 still have full effect.
    It would also mean, that only REGULAR regeneration would be cancelled – not SPECIAL like Fast Healing, Wetland Foraging and the rest.
    That makes sense because OTHER racial traits are not affected either – Goblins still get +20% pop, and so on.

    That’s all. I just want to have ALL THE SAME racial benefits when playing necro, not just a selected few: play Dracs? Why? PLay Goblins? Why? Worst pick for Necro you can actually make – but it would be different, if their racial traits still had full effect.

    So that’s just not good for the game, sorry.

    #208671

    I’m curious – why is Goblin Necromancer the worst pick?

    I imagine because of redundant blight immunity and further reduced hp?

    #208673

    Taykor
    Member

    1) 100% Blight damage; too much;

    No, it’s definitely not too much. Fire and Spirit vulnerabilities are really painful. Not to mention -1 def for ghouls. Your suggestion is not well thought-out and therefore bad for the game.

    #208674

    madmac
    Member

    I’m curious – why is Goblin Necromancer the worst pick?

    I’m pretty sure Goblin Necromancer is the best Necro, actually. Try it out!

    And Draconian Necromancer is also very good, so eh.

    #208677

    Smaug3
    Member

    I’m curious – why is Goblin Necromancer the worst pick?

    I imagine because of redundant blight immunity and further reduced hp?

    I honestly like goblin necro with shadowborn and expander, but I think it’s because of the lack of pop growth, regen and extra blight. However, I find it works well with a pseudo-spam with a few cheap necro units. You get cheap class units, easy to throw away units such as cadavers and marauders. It’s not really all that bad.

    #208687

    It does seem like all your eggs are in one basket, although life stealing and embalm do make them tougher than normal goblins. I suppose it is a good longer game necromancer.

    Anyway, 40 extra blight is actually great. Makes units stay immune when degenerated or weakened (when other blight immunity is added).

    #208692

    So how do we solve the issue of Tigran units/heroes and strong will?

    #208694

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Same thing.

    Problem with those saying, great, is, they actually don’t say it is – they just say it doesn’t matter.

    Which is crap. Dracs racial is Fast Healing more than anything. You losr that as racials- crap. Goblins now can’t get below 100% blight – great, but SILLY. You are actually at 140% – what is opponent suppoed to do to actually hand you a point of Blight?
    Butcher already has Life Steal – so Life steal is better with, say, Elves.

    So, sorry – NONSENSE!

    Now, true, Goblin Necro may be fun in SP – because Necro is fun in general but in MP? REALLY?
    Please.

    #208696

    madmac
    Member

    Now, true, Goblin Necro may be fun in SP – because Necro is fun in general but in MP? REALLY?
    Please.
    .

    Yes, really. I just finished up a long PBEM game that I won using Goblin Necromancer and I’ve been experimenting and enjoying the combo in live multiplayer for a while now, and I know several people that have also played it in MP and like it a lot.

    Goblin Necromancer is great because the Growth/Econ bonuses compensate so nicely for the Necromancers normally atrocious early game. It’s also funny you mention Butchers, because my usual strat is to go Shadowborn and pump out absurdly tough for their price embalmed triple life stealing Butchers as my go-to frontliners. (You do know the beta patch has stacking life steal, right?)

    You can also go Military 2 for +17 HP ghouled Swarm Darters or Econ 2 for a whopping gold bonus instead. You also get Reanimators with bonus ranged damage, Deathbringers who get inflict weaken at gold, and friggen Regrowth Trolls with Military 4.

    Goblin Necromancer is good all game and are pretty much my go-to competitive choice for playing Necromancer in mulitplayer these days.

    As for Draconians, I haven’t personally played it a lot, but I know a lot of sharp people who swear by Draco Necro, the resistances and fire damage line up very, very well and you even get (Military 2) spammable ghouled infantry with Regrowth which is never something to sniff at.

    You’re focusing too much on the little things these races don’t get and totally missing the huge advantages they offer.

    #208697

    Gloweye
    Member

    So how do we solve the issue of Tigran units/heroes and strong will?

    Don’t see the issue..

    Problem with those saying, great, is, they actually don’t say it is – they just say it doesn’t matter.

    Do they?

    I’m curious – why is Goblin Necromancer the worst pick?

    I’m pretty sure Goblin Necromancer is the best Necro, actually. Try it out!

    And Draconian Necromancer is also very good, so eh.

    Nope, they don’t.

    Butcher already has Life Steal – so Life steal is better with, say, Elves.

    Dunno if you got the memo yet, but it stacks in the current beta patch – coming to our GoG shortly.

    Dracs racial is Fast Healing more than anything.

    I think you’re selling them short quite a bit. There’s also racial things that not all units share – like Fire Damage, AoE attack on archer that negates a couple of penalties, and Regrowth on some pretty strong T1 units(which kind of returns the fast-healing feel even to Ghouled versions.).

    So, sorry – NONSENSE!

    I’m afraid my conclusion is that this applies more to your post than to any others here.

    #208699

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Sorry, I think, you mistake the general great Necro game with the race balance.

    It’s OBVIOUS, that when you lose the +6 reg as Dracs without any compensation you just lost something. Sure, Goblins +20% pop are good with Necro – oh, but they are good with everyone else – after al 20% of 0 is 0, so?

    The post here is about racial differences are cut without sense and necessity, not abot Necro being a great class that doesn’t care.

    Fact is, with Necro it actually doesn’t matter what race you pick – but that is because the Class is off – and that’s obvious as well.

    #208701

    madmac
    Member

    Fact is, with Necro it actually doesn’t matter what race you pick – but that is because the Class is off – and that’s obvious as well.
    .

    Every time you post about Necromancer is becomes even more obvious that you’ve never played it in multiplayer and don’t really understand the class at all.

    #208703

    NINJEW
    Member

    Actually, the healing thing is fairly well balanced because every race loses their racial healing (dracs lose fast regen, goblins lose wetlands foraging, orcs lose warcry, and humans and dwarves don’t have healing racial supports anymore).

    The game was already balanced around every race naturally having a source of healing, and Necro removes all of them equally, so it’s not that bad.

    The exceptions to this are elves, tigrans, and frostlings, who have no natural racial healing, as well as halflings, who kept their racial support healing, but none of those are particularly terribly badly balanced as necro.

    Also lol, race doesn’t matter with necro, you’re hilarious (the secret to competitive necro play is heavy use of +7hp, +1 medal up, lifestealing ghouls)

    #208704

    Medic-Tank
    Member

    Draconian necromancer is actually by far my favourite. You don’t get extreme synergies but it covers many weaknesses of necromancer line up. You get fire resistant ghouls even without embalmers guild taking less damage means you don’t need fast healing as much. You get added fire damage on many units a draconian raptor that can recklessly charge because of lesser reanimate is awesome. Your reanimators get rime fire instead of black bolt. RG with cheaper shrines help with your boosted necromancer shrines and the draconian mana bonus will help a class that has rocky starts because of low resources. I love how all the classes play at the moment but the necromancer just feels absolutely right.

    #208709

    thabob79
    Member

    Some races lose trait other dont,is there compensation? I dont think so.
    Elf lose nothing,
    Orc lose victory rush,
    Humain lose nothing,
    Goblin lose foraging and extra blight resist
    Frostling lose nothing (extra inflammable tho)
    Draconian lose fast heal
    Tigran lose nothing
    Halfling lose nothing overall(less morale bonus and malus)

    That tickle me a little *scratch scratch*

    #208714

    Smaug3
    Member

    Same thing.

    Problem with those saying, great, is, they actually don’t say it is – they just say it doesn’t matter.

    Which is crap. Dracs racial is Fast Healing more than anything. You losr that as racials- crap. Goblins now can’t get below 100% blight – great, but SILLY. You are actually at 140% – what is opponent suppoed to do to actually hand you a point of Blight?
    Butcher already has Life Steal – so Life steal is better with, say, Elves.

    So, sorry – NONSENSE!

    Now, true, Goblin Necro may be fun in SP – because Necro is fun in general but in MP? REALLY?
    Please.

    You know, races are more than just their racial traits. You’ve got the units in their lineup, specific abilities, etc. You can’t say that one thing they have is missing and then claim that necro is useless for them. You might as well complain that elven hunters are worse because of forestry already being on hunters.

    Honestly, this thread feels like it’s more of just your personal issues against necro and ghouls. The thread is titled I just realized I hate Ghouls. You are not claiming that you think ghouls are imbalanced, you are saying that you hate ghouls because you think that them losing their special abilities is unfair. Ghouls aren’t meant to heal, they are meant to be resistant to corruption and cold.

    There are overlaps in abilities. That’s the way this game was designed. You get overlaps, you get empty spots. It’s the nature of the game. Undead are resistant to blight and can’t heal. Don’t try changing it to make it more fair to the races that lose advantages, just play with it and around it.

    #208715

    NINJEW
    Member

    Humans lose their racial healing (iron heart doesn’t heal ghouls), as do Dwarves.

    75% of the races that lose nothing are Expansion races that intentionally play around with normal game mechanics.

    Elves have to suffer the double whammy of -pop from elf and slow necro pop growth.

    #208717

    Ericridge
    Member

    I like ghouls, i actually took a tier 1 army of them that has bunch of experience into a lost city and they rickrolled the nagas living in there HARD. XD I was like, no way. o.o

    If anything, ghouls is different type of machines lol with different set of strengths and weaknesses. If you have experience with theocrats and dreadnoughts, playing a necromancer will be easier for it.

    #208719

    Fenraellis
    Member

    100% Blight damage; too much; makes Goblin 40% Res useless

    Already covered by others by the time I got to posting…

    Dracs racial is Fast Healing more than anything. You losr that as racials- crap.

    Actually, the T2 RG that adds Regrowth to Crushers and Charges really makes Draconian Ghouls stand out.

    You are actually at 140% – what is opponent suppoed to do to actually hand you a point of Blight?

    Rot for multi-target? Weaken? Degenerate(will also lower other Resistances, for even more deadliness, of course)?

    Butcher already has Life Steal – so Life steal is better with, say, Elves.

    Stacking. Also, already covered.

    Elf lose nothing,
    Orc lose victory rush,
    Humain lose nothing,
    Goblin lose foraging and extra blight resist
    Frostling lose nothing (extra inflammable tho)
    Draconian lose fast heal
    Tigran lose nothing
    Halfling lose nothing overall(less morale bonus and malus)

    — Elf lose Blight Immunity(compared to other races). Gryphon Riders don’t benefit from Vampiric Hunger.
    — Orcs do benefit quite well from Necromancer overall. Protections make up somewhat for their Res penalty. Embalmed HP bonus works well with Orc HP bonus. All key Orc melee units aside from Black Knights benefit from Vampiric Hunger. The Shocktrooper will even be a Tireless unit with Life Stealing, making it extra deadly against multiple weaker units.
    — Humans lose healing from Iron Heart from Priests. Knights don’t benefit from Vampiric Hunger
    — Goblin gain resistance to Rot and related effects, but that also means their Blight Protection does not get ‘wasted’. Also, numerous units with inherent elemental damage, and further debuffs, combines well with Inflict Curse and the like. Inflict Weaken on Death Bringers. Decreased costs can interact well with Necromancer’s weaker output levels.
    — Frostlings lose their lives. 😉 Yes, though, I generally think the gains outweigh the losses for Frostlings if played well.
    — Draconians I spoke of earlier, but also the wide access to Fire damage and Protection is nice for a Necromancer. Also, bonus rank can mean any T2 Ghoul non-Irregular/Laborer can potentially be produced at Elite(also applies to Humans and Tigrans).
    — Tigrans already have -Res, and now also get -Def, without even the bonus HP that Orcs have. Also, Spirit Protection is useful but… it only really counters damage, whereas the true value for living Tigrans is countering Mind Control abilities, Fear/Panic and Daze.
    — Halflings lose relatively easy access to high Morale for high Luck for Living Halflings. They need to research Master of Puppets, have a Halfling Reanimator AND have RG 4 for Military to finally reach 600+ Morale. The latter in particular is a stretch goal in certain types of matches. Also -20% Physical Protection and -1 Def combine painfully at times. Also, Eagle Rider and Vampiric Hunger not benefiting it.
    — Dwarves, not mentioned above, lose healing from Guardian Flame, but the bonus Def/Res can help counter Ghoul weaknesses. Dwarven Infantry are a dangerous thing, indeed, as well, and now also get to Life Steal. Meteoric Armor Death Bringers if the game lasts long enough somehow. Also, Armored(and Meteoric) Dwarven Reanimators are much tougher than those of other races. Increased production costs can clash with the Necromancer’s output levels.

    Those are just samples, of course. Literally every race both gains and loses something in the transition from living to Ghoul.

    #208777

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Look, I don’t understand the way you argue here. I’m not saying they are weak – I say it makes no sense, to design ghoul/undead in a way that shaves off A COUPLE of traits – but most not. Where is the sense in that?
    Example: Regrowth works – fast Healing not? Why?

    I can’t even understand why some of you go out of your way and try to tell everyone how great they are – THAT’S NOT THE POINT! Of course they are great – Necro is great. Getting a 100% Blight on a platter is “great” – who cares about the 40% Goblin blight?
    Dracs Fast Healing is shaved – who cares? Support Healing, Reanimators, Lesser Reanimation – who needs Fast Healing?

    THAT WASN’T THE POINT!

    BBB said, initially there would have been no ghouling and it would have been boring (I can envision that). The problem with undead, is, that you’d not REALLY expect them to keep all their living characteristics – but of course that would be even more boring. So it is clear that the racial units must keep their identity and get only a ghoul/undead modifier.

    Based on that, the point is why it’s necessary to create undead/ghoul specs that create this heavy Blight immunity? Why is it necessary to kill the racial healing stuff – when other stuff like Charm, Regrowth and so on is kept? (What about Frostling Fishing, by the way?) THAT is the point. That 100% is too much of an equalizer and that killing all racial special healing is too much of a SELECTIVE penalty (it’s not too much of a PENALTY), it’s just too much of a SELECTIVE one).
    See it this way: As a ghouled undead you gain 100% Blight which is obviously great for the units. You also get 40% Cold which is fine, but not overwhelmingly so; you get 60% Spirit weakness and 20% Fire weakness as well; for that the general +6 Regeneration is lost. Also Dracs, FROSTLINGS (Fishing), Goblins and Orcs lose their racial extra regeneration.
    If you play Frostlings, this will add up to 100% Blight and 100% Cold Immunity – but those of you who point to “Frostling torches” – not so. Embalmer’s Guild gives them 40% Fire Resistance, leaving a mild 20% Weakness (and later on Lich Aura will reduce Spirit Weakness from 60 to 40).
    Now look at Tigran Undead. They have 40% Spirit resistance, which means actually, Embalmer’s guild produced Tigran undead, after Lich Aura will have +7 HP, 100% Blight, +20 % Cold, +20 % Fire (Sphinx even more) – NO WEAKNESS AT ALL! And since they had no extra regeneration in the first place …

    Again – I don’t complain about the Tigran undead; I complain about the fact that it’s 100% Blight; 40-60% Blight would be fine, obviously. And I complain that the races don’t keep their racial regs – you could half them, if that was deemed necessary, but I consider this kind of selective equality no fun.

    What is even more disturbing is, that the Ghouls doesn’t even need the advantage of racial healing, once Reanimators and Support Healing kick off – on the contrary. Come to think of it, if Heal Undead was weaker, but racial regeneration stuff would be kept, it would be much more of a decision, for example for Goblins, to end a hex on Wetland to use the extra healing, but as it is, Heal Undead with a 2 turn Cooldown and healing over night is just a really big club to solve all this.

    You could just as well say, undead Ghouls have 0 Defense and 0 Resistance – but Banshees give them +6 each and there is a tech that adds +2 for every support unit.

    So many words, just for saying that it would be better if Blight was only 40-60% instead of 100, if racial extra regeneration was kept (or at least part of it), and if Heal Undead was reduced (for example to 15 and a 3 turn cooldown). With the aim to make race specifics work basically the same as with the other classes, not just for SOME races, but for ALL.

    #208778

    Hatmage
    Member

    I like that there are some fairly consistent tradeoffs for going ghoul, but I’d also like if their stats and abilities were tweaked away from sharing the role of the living as skilled combatants and toward being able to tolerate wounds lethal to the living.
    It probably won’t happen, but even so, it’s worth hanging onto as a mod idea.

    #208802

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It should be clear that logic or something has nothing to do with it; instead features must fit the game, make sense and be fun.

    So the following things are clear: as soon as you decide that Class Necro somewhat “changes” the town population, aka the races, you have to keep in mind that this “change” must be “neutral” as much as the alignment is concerned, otherwise Necros would be Evil.
    That in turn means, “getting Ghouled” should be some kind of process that isn’t evil – which also means, it shouldn’t destroy things like personality.
    That in turn is fine, because it means it makes sense to keep racial individuality.

    The model of what you would actually expect from evil Necro is – the Cadaver. No matter what it was, NOW it’s a cadaver – but that would not only be evil, but also destroy the game in a certain way (however, the Cadaver stuff is cool to play with).

    So that leaves the question – from a design point of view; what DOES a Necro do with town population? Again, it has nothing to do with logic – you could just as well say, they lose battle reflexes for a whopping -3 defense, making them very vulnerable against physical, and also say they are somewhat magically inert, gaing +2 Resistance and a +40 Spirit Resistance – but then you would realize that Halfling Ghouls would keel over from being hit by a rabbit. You could also say that uniformly undead have no happiness anymore, but that again would destroy Halflings completely, so in this case Halflings would either need special care or Ghouls couldn’t be without happiness.

    What for Halflings is right can’t be wrong for the others, though. How is REGROWTH working – but Fast Healing isn’t? What makes a Monster Hunter a Monster Hunter – and how does a Ghouled Monster Hunter keep all that Slayer attributes? If a Ghoul Succubus can keep Seduce – why can a Ghoul not BE seduced? Why are Ghouls immune against Mind Control – but not against being Puppeteered for 300 Happiness?

    So this works with a lot of “finding the best compromises in order to walk a thin line between having something really unique on one hand and keeping the good things as well on the other”.

    For those who agree with 100% Blight – strange that Elves are only 80% resistant. So they are Ghouled – but can still be affected by Poison, if only slightly?

    If you look at Dread, you have the problem that Engineers are LIVING units that can heal/repair machines (but not themselves) – you need for example a Human Priest for that. This makes things fairly complicated for Dread, which is fine, though: machines are unique in having 100 Blight and Spirit and deal heavy ranged damage.

    Necro is different, though. If Necro was dread, Dread would make all their town population “constructs”, giving them machine properties, which would lose all Regeneration ability, get Engineers with +20 Repair Machine/Construct and get a tech that would give all Support Units Repair Machine/Construct and all Engineers “Instant Repair”, “reanimating” destroyed Machines on the BF. Would be a different kind of Dread then – and all points bouh made in the theo endgame thread would be invalid, since – where was the tradeoff?

    Which means, Dread has a lot of very difficult decisions to make – but Necro? What do you have to decide, really?

    #208842

    Taykor
    Member

    Sure, Goblins +20% pop are good with Necro – oh, but they are good with everyone else – after al 20% of 0 is 0, so?

    Ehrm, what was that? Are you saying that necromancer doesn’t have growing population? Well, it does. So it’s not 20% of 0.

    You could also say that uniformly undead have no happiness anymore, but that again would destroy Halflings completely, so in this case Halflings would either need special care or Ghouls couldn’t be without happiness.

    You do know that Halfling reanimators can improve morale of ghouls?

    So many words, just for saying that it would be better if Blight was only 40-60% instead of 100, if racial extra regeneration was kept (or at least part of it), and if Heal Undead was reduced (for example to 15 and a 3 turn cooldown). With the aim to make race specifics work basically the same as with the other classes, not just for SOME races, but for ALL.

    Humans. Ah, you haven’t thought of them, have you? As I’ve said your suggestions aren’t well thought out and your arguments and premises are often plain wrong (as ones above, for example).

    #208882

    Smaug3
    Member

    It should be clear that logic or something has nothing to do with it; instead features must fit the game, make sense and be fun.

    So the following things are clear: as soon as you decide that Class Necro somewhat “changes” the town population, aka the races, you have to keep in mind that this “change” must be “neutral” as much as the alignment is concerned, otherwise Necros would be Evil. That in turn is fine, because it means it makes sense to keep racial individuality.

    There is a reason that they can’t heal. They are dead. As I said in my earlier post, there is still racial individuality. Do you really think that a ghoul draconian raptor and a ghoul unicorn rider are both the same because they’re dead cavalry? No. There are still things such as special abilities, such as phase or fire protection, what units can aid them, draconian elders can only affect the raptor, and so on.

    You are focusing entirely upon one point on the entire race: healing. Surprise: there’s more than that. There’s still racial governance, city bonuses, stat boosts and so on.

    Look, I don’t understand the way you argue here. I’m not saying they are weak – I say it makes no sense, to design ghoul/undead in a way that shaves off A COUPLE of traits – but most not. Where is the sense in that?
    Example: Regrowth works – fast Healing not? Why?

    We’ve been pointing out that they are good because you think that losing that thing makes it a bad choice for necro and made that race worthless. We’re simply giving you examples to the contrary. On a side note, regrowth was originally given to the trolls and warbreeds. Trolls healed magically from all their wounds overnight in folklore. Regrowth is 100% magical. Fast healing is a genetic issue.

    #208892

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Sure, Goblins +20% pop are good with Necro – oh, but they are good with everyone else – after al 20% of 0 is 0, so?

    Ehrm, what was that? Are you saying that necromancer doesn’t have growing population? Well, it does. So it’s not 20% of 0.

    They don’t, not from nothing (Outpost). The question was more in the line of what has POPULATION growth to do with UNDEAD GHOUL growth? I mean, they don’t clone them, right? So why would Goblins keep that trait?

    You could also say that uniformly undead have no happiness anymore, but that again would destroy Halflings completely, so in this case Halflings would either need special care or Ghouls couldn’t be without happiness.

    You do know that Halfling reanimators can improve morale of ghouls?

    That’s what I said – Halflings need happiness, so for reasons that are beside logic – but good for the game – Halflings get “special treatment”.

    So many words, just for saying that it would be better if Blight was only 40-60% instead of 100, if racial extra regeneration was kept (or at least part of it), and if Heal Undead was reduced (for example to 15 and a 3 turn cooldown). With the aim to make race specifics work basically the same as with the other classes, not just for SOME races, but for ALL.

    Humans. Ah, you haven’t thought of them, have you? As I’ve said your suggestions aren’t well thought out and your arguments and premises are often plain wrong (as ones above, for example).

    What is with humans? You make a lot of words and claims – but where are the points?

    @ Smaug3

    There is a reason that they can’t heal. They are dead. As I said in my earlier post, there is still racial individuality. Do you really think that a ghoul draconian raptor and a ghoul unicorn rider are both the same because they’re dead cavalry? No. There are still things such as special abilities, such as phase or fire protection, what units can aid them, draconian elders can only affect the raptor, and so on.

    You are focusing entirely upon one point on the entire race: healing. Surprise: there’s more than that. There’s still racial governance, city bonuses, stat boosts and so on.

    Dude, THAT IS MY POINT! That ALOT racial individuality is kept – but a couple of things ARBITRARILY not. Sure, THEY ARE DEAD. Except, you wouldn’t think so. Which is not what I criticize, on the contrary. However, there is no need to shave off SPECIAL racial healing – not when they keep “REGROWTH” (they are dead, right?). And if Elven corpses are not 100% Blight resistant then NO ONE has to be, and piling Blight so much so that Goblin special Blight makes no difference is just unnecessary

    We’ve been pointing out that they are good because you think that losing that thing makes it a bad choice for necro and made that race worthless. We’re simply giving you examples to the contrary. On a side note, regrowth was originally given to the trolls and warbreeds. Trolls healed magically from all their wounds overnight in folklore. Regrowth is 100% magical. Fast healing is a genetic issue

    Trying to pull pseudo-logical explanations out of a hat is silly and even ridiculous.
    I’m not saying Draconians are bad – I’m saying Necro Healing and 100% Blight is so good, that it makes no difference whether you have +6 Reg a turn or not. It just doesn’t matter; same with Gobs – doesn’t matter.
    Which is what I don’t like. It SHOULD matter – it doesn’t, though.

    I cannot even BEGIN to understand why this is even defended.

    #208895

    Socratatus
    Member

    sigh… just because it’s a ‘problem’ for you, doesn’t mean it should be changed. Try looking at the wider implications of changes just because you don’t want it.

    #208898

    Gloweye
    Member

    THAT IS MY POINT! That ALOT racial individuality is kept – but a couple of things ARBITRARILY not

    There’s nothing arbitrary in there – they all get the exact same treatment.

    I cannot even BEGIN to understand why this is even defended.

    I can’t even begin to understand why you have this big an issue with it, or even attack it.

    TBH, looks like you’re just attacking the current state of the game for the sake of complaining about something.

    That’s what I said – Halflings need happiness, so for reasons that are beside logic – but good for the game – Halflings get “special treatment”.

    Dude, the halfling race is about happiness. There’s nothing else they have. nearly all class supports have Minor Bard skills – why should the Necro be excluded from this? The only change is that they get an equivalent that actually works on Ghouls.

    However, there is no need to shave off SPECIAL racial healing – not when they keep “REGROWTH” (they are dead, right?).

    Already explained and ignored by you, but there’s nothing natural about Regrowth. Therefore it ignored undeath. Fast Healing on the other hand is a trait Draconians are specifically engineered to have – which is still naturally imbedded in what they are.

    For those who agree with 100% Blight – strange that Elves are only 80% resistant. So they are Ghouled – but can still be affected by Poison, if only slightly?

    You’re right. Shall we just give them an arbitrary 20% more to bring them to immune to?

    If a Ghoul Succubus can keep Seduce – why can a Ghoul not BE seduced? Why are Ghouls immune against Mind Control – but not against being Puppeteered for 300 Happiness?

    They’re not immune the Mind Control. You just need the Undead compatible methods, those being Control Undead and Necromantic Aura(which happens to be the most powerful mind control ability in the game, with potentially infinite procs every single round.)

    And it’s been noted time after time that Succubi’s Seduce isn’t just showing some cleavage and inducing some lust. They’re actively magically manipulating their victims. No reason why the Undead versions wouldn’t be able to.

    The reason that it’s not working on Ghouls is that they need a different method, for which the Succubus is inadequately equipped.

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