I just realized I actually hate Ghouls – consider a change:

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions I just realized I actually hate Ghouls – consider a change:

This topic contains 77 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  overlorddarkslash 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 18 posts - 61 through 78 (of 78 total)
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  • #209494

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I disagree with you.

    1) Lore isn’t even a point; there are so many things that are not decided with a view on law: Incorporeal is a good example – it SHOULD be 100% Physical lore-wise – but it is 60% only: BALANCE-wise. There is a plethora of examples that make clear, for the whole game, when it came to a “lore or balance/playability” decision, the nod was given to balance. So your first point is actually no point.
    2) Dev time is no point either; for one thing devs put a lot of time in balancing, some of which wouldn’t have been necessary. Here, though, you can make a point for a need to balance things, because Necro Heal Undead is way too prominent and outheals Theo.
    3) Which is also invalid, because there IS a balance problem, whether you like that or not.

    I mean, when I read about Draconians are so great because they cover the Fire Weakness – Necro doesn’t even have a Fire Weakness. Oh sure, Undead gives 20% Weakness, but guess what Embalmer’s Guild gives…
    MY point is, that Necfro class does too much that it shouldn’t do, because it makes race traits partly unimportant which is something that shouldn’t be the case in such a way. Try to see it the other way round:

    Is there ANY reason to give undead 100% Blight BESIDE a certain interpretation of the “lore”? And the other side: Is there ANY GAMEPLAY reason to give undead LESS THAN 100% Blight resistance? Of course it is.
    So it amounts to weighing them, and obviously, either 40% or 60% Blight protection would have done it much better, since it would simply be less extreme.

    Then there is the Regeneration thing. Again, the reason for that is “lore”. Undead shouldn’t regenerate, shouldn’t they? But wait – they are not rotting either (like Cadavers), so they are kept from rotting by some magic, and they can even be healed, but what does that even mean? How do you heal an undead incorporeal unit that suffered physical damage, something that isn’t even imaginable. Why would it even be necessary to heal an undead getting a spear into the ribs? So let’s not ask – let’s just say, they are magically restored into a pristine undead state, and if they are hacked to pulp, you can even reanimate them again, which is quite handy.

    But what does that mean from the racial point of view? It means, you start out as an extremely vulnerable Class, since your only regain of health comes from your Necromancer hero(es). (This makes a goblin start VERY painful, due to having less HPs, -1 Defense because of Ghouled, no unit advantage from race and one meagre town for the 20% pop gain, while Dwarves are cool in that stage.) That changes every time the class healing gets a push, until you have all the Healing in the world you want PLUS and easy reanimating of your T1 and T2s.

    With all other classes racial regeneration things are quite important and always a rather prominent matter. It’s interesting playing Orcs, with their Victory Rush and War Cry thing, and it’s different with Elves who HAVE to keep opponents at bay with their missing additional regeneration but long bow range. So when they are ghouled, Elves still play the same – while Orcs are now missing the Victory Rush effect.

    Question: From a gameplay point of view, is it really a GAIN to take away Victory Rush from Ghouled Orcs and replace it by a class unit that is the equivalent of a Human Priest, only better? And add a tech later on that basically gives their own supports that ability as well, plus let their Class units revive the Orcs?

    I don’t think so. I think, Heal Undead and Lesser Reanimation should not be that good (and make no mistake, they ARE that good). And that is a BALANCE problem, and not the only one.

    Naked facts are, that we have more or less two abilities that define the racial units:
    1) Ghouled; this gives -1 Defense and -20% Spirit Weakness, which is basically the penalty of a ghouled racial unit compared with a living one. It seems FINE.
    2) Undead; this has nothing to do with the first; I have no idea whether that has been changed in the course of the development of the class, but I suspect, it hasn’t. The stats and status changes coming with “undead” are numerous, and if they had been valied ONLY for Class units (like it is for the machines of Dreadnought) they would have been fine, in all probability. They would have been part of the whole, only.

    However, when Ghouled meant undead AS WELL, things got different.

    I mean, what would be wrong with making class units “undead” and REGULAR race units “just” Ghouled – Ghouled being redefined to something like:
    Regeneration -6
    Spirit -60
    Blight +60
    Cold +40
    Fire -20
    Gain Resistance +3 for all mind control checks…
    Happiness effects are halved…

    Technically, this would have been quite possible. The added advantage would have been that lore-wise it would have made an alignment neutral Necro (that may become good or evil) a lot more believable, since you could have claimed “Ghouled” isn’t taking away their personality at all; they just give a bit and get a bit.

    #209499

    NuMetal
    Member

    sigh… just because it’s a ‘problem’ for you, doesn’t mean it should be changed.

    +1

    #209500

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    True.
    That’s why I strain to explain the why. After all, that point is true for every problem: to change something, there should be more reason than individual dislike, and I think there IS, which is why I give a reasoning.

    I mean, see it this way – you wouldn’t see a good reason why there should be a class trait that gives every unit at least 10 defense, because this would simply erase the lower-tier racial differences – you would strive to make it a general +1 for T1 and T2 or something like that, so that simply defense would go up, keeping racial differences in that regard. One of the strong points of the game is VARIETY coming with 7 different classes and 9 different races, and I can’t imagine why anyone would want to erase part of the racial differences. For me that’s not only nt a good step, it’s also totally unnecessary.

    #209504

    NuMetal
    Member

    mkay, I’ll have to rephrase that:

    Just because something seems to be a problem to you doesn’t mean it automatically really is a problem and therefore it doesn’t mean that something has to be changed because of it.

    You explained what you think is a problem and the majority of the people here disagreed with you and tried to explain their view. Instead of shouting “you don’t understand me” at each other we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    I didn’t want to repeat what all the others before me have already said and so I’d just want to shortly agree with the others that there isn’t a problem at all.

    However I am very grateful for your polite answer!

    #209537

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m only “impolite”, when I get thoughtless answers.

    The problem is, that the others aren’t really making convincing points. They more or less say, “it’s not a problem”, mainly due to an “it makes no difference” – which actually IS the problem.

    Regenerative abilities and Resistancies/Weaknesses are a big part of what makes a race individual. It’s not goood when races keep differences, for example in their resistance or Defense bonus/malus, but lose the difference in regenerative abilities.
    One could make a pretty convincing point that “undead” – being magically kept in a state beyond death – should have generally higher magic resistancies … and no racial specification at all – but of course, playing with Cadavers wouldn’t be fun.

    I just think that basically all racial traits are important and shouldn’t become meaningless for the racial units. Especially not when this leads to a healing and animating orgy.

    #209549

    Ravenholme
    Member

    I’m only “impolite”, when I get thoughtless answers.

    The problem is, that the others aren’t really making convincing points. They more or less say, “it’s not a problem”, mainly due to an “it makes no difference” – which actually IS the problem.

    Except… neither are you making convincing points, because you’re not convincing anyone.

    Put me in the camp who disagrees with you, sorry JJ, and I don’t find your points convincing either.

    #209552
    #209571

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    There is a difference between being indifferent and disagreeing.

    Disagreement needs a contrary opinion, though (“no, it’s fine, and a change ould be a change to worse”), whereas indifference would be smething like a don’t care attitude (“for me it’s fine, so whatever”).

    The interesting thing is that most people are actually arguing like they would be indifferent to the “problem” (“no problem for me”) – but conclude a disagreement.

    For example, no one actually says, no, Necromancer’s Healing levels are fine – if anything they need more class Healing. Also, no one says that complete faction (race and class) immunity against a damage channel is great or something to be sought. It’s more like, you know, Necros and Undead, let’s allow an exception.

    I hope for mod tools SOON, because I don’t find the way covincing race is handled by Necro. And as long as no one cancome up with a convincing arument why it is GOOD the way it is – because it doesn’t feel good, not as good as the others – I see no reason not to complain about it. It’s certainly a point worth looking at, what wikth Necro being radically different than everyone else.

    #209572

    vota dc
    Member

    I mean, what would be wrong with making class units “undead” and REGULAR race units “just” Ghouled – Ghouled being redefined to something like:
    Regeneration -6
    Spirit -60
    Blight +60
    Cold +40
    Fire -20
    Gain Resistance +3 for all mind control checks…
    Happiness effects are halved…

    For me this is an easy solution, but I don’t know the troubles that removing the label of undead could do: for example ghouls becoming immune to undead slayer etc…

    #209588

    Gloweye
    Member

    (“for me it’s fine, so whatever”).

    No one included the “whatever”. They basically say: Current situation is fine, those changes would make it worse. So that’s solid ground for disagreement

    For example, no one actually says, no, Necromancer’s Healing levels are fine

    They’re fine. And no, they don’t need either a buff or a nerf, because I think both of these would screw the balance up.

    #209604

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    (“for me it’s fine, so whatever”).

    No one included the “whatever”. They basically say: Current situation is fine, those changes would make it worse. So that’s solid ground for disagreement

    Without giving any reasons, though, or disproving mine.

    For example, no one actually says, no, Necromancer’s Healing levels are fine

    They’re fine. And no, they don’t need either a buff or a nerf, because I think both of these would screw the balance up.

    That’s actually a strange thing to say. The only racial T2 with Healing ability are Human (+15), Dwarven (+10), Tigran (+15, only on itself) and Halflings (+15).
    Theocrat as the “Healing Class” has a tech that gives supports Healing and a strategic spell that gives an additional +6 regeneration. Also, Evenagelists have Healing, while a couple of their units can get or have resurgence.
    Necro has not only a tech that gives supports Heal Undead, they also have a dedicated Class Healer unit that will be able to reanimate a dead T1 or T2 undead (with 50% HP – that’s a very significant healing effect compared to the 35% Resurgence gains after battle, while their Heroes can learn the full reanimation thing.
    Which gives Necro a lot of Healing Power.

    Now, keep in mind, that the ACTUAL point I made was, IF racial Ghouls would keep their SPECIAL (not the general +6 for everyone) regeneration abilities (like Fast Healing), you could decrease the amount of Healing, either generally for Heal Undead, or – what I would by far prefer – to give racial supports only something like “Lesser Heal Unded, healing only part of those 20 points, for example 10 or 12. This way it would obviously make a difference whether you played a race with a regeneration ability or not.

    As it is, in the beginning, Defense and Resistance (and weaknesses and resistances) matter A LOT – it also matters, whether you get a second Necro or not when a Hero is up for hire, since that doubles your Healing. It forces you into producing Reanimators ASAP (you might make do with Dracs or Orcs or Gobs or Frostlings otherwise) – but once you do have a couple of them those factors become rather unimportant, and a lot more so after your supports are gaining Heal Undead.

    #209628

    The thing is:

    I don’t think so. I think, Heal Undead and Lesser Reanimation should not be that good (and make no mistake, they ARE that good). And that is a BALANCE problem, and not the only one.

    That is not a balance problem, that is simply your opinion. Which leads to:

    True.
    That’s why I strain to explain the why. After all, that point is true for every problem: to change something, there should be more reason than individual dislike, and I think there IS, which is why I give a reasoning.

    And well, your explanations are more an establishing of your individual opinion than an explanation of objective issues. Which is why you get this amount of disagreement, as there is simply no other option to reply.
    Either people think it is an issue by themselves and agree with you, or they don’t. And there is little else to discuss so far.

    As for your suggestion of changes:
    All alternatives you suggest would massively change the entire class. It is not simply a matter of adding 6 points of Victory Rush healing and removing 6 points of Heal Undead healing to get the same end healing. One is a tactical ability the other isn’t and as a tactical ability part of the balance issue is making it worth to regularly use the action, and nerfing Heal Undead would make that a worse option, and as a result make the tactical battles less interesting.
    All your suggestions in this thread fall into the same category of changes whose wider impact would change a lot to fix only a little issue.

    And that issue is one many don’t have.

    So there is disagreement. The entire premise is subjective, so there can be nothing else. You think there is an objective aspect, but so far have failed at convincing. The probable cause are your methods of convincing, not the blindness of others. If this topic is this important to you, I would recommend taking a step back and reformulate your arguments.

    #209648

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Fair enough.

    Although I suspect it will be easier to create a mod and encourage people to try it.

    #209670

    Gloweye
    Member

    Fair enough.

    Although I suspect it will be easier to create a mod and encourage people to try it.

    Fair enough.

    I think modding tools will make this kind of discussions a lot easier.

    Guy 1:
    “listen up guys, I got a neat idea. I modded it here, so try it out and see if you agree with this massive improvement of the gameplay”.

    Guy 2:
    “IMBA!!!”

    Guy 1:
    “You played it?”

    Guy 2:
    “Ehm..OK, will play to show you it’s IMBA”

    1 week later:

    Guy 2:
    “OK, not that bad.”/”Yeah, pretty IMBA. Just try building X and Y and do Z with it. Nothing to do against that.”

    #209788

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Without giving any reasons, though, or disproving mine.

    To be fair, it’s not generally the burden of the listener to disprove an idea, but instead it’s the burden of the speaker to provide sufficient proof.

    #209814

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    *Sigh* I’m still waiting on “proof” for most of all balance changes made. “Proof” is pretty difficult, and this case there IS ample proof – just proof for what?

    I would have thought, everyone was interested to keep ALL racial characteristics, no matter what Class you play, and that’s not the case with Necro, that’s obvious and I don’t need proof for that.
    Do I really need proof that it would be better to keep all the characteristics of all races?
    There are two abilities, Ghouled and Undead.
    Class units are no Ghouls, but JUST undead. That is fine, really, (even with the characteristics of the ability, because it’s the Class part).

    The question that it amounts to is: wouldn’t it be better to treat “Ghouled” as a different kind of “undead” instead of making those units not only Ghouled but Undead as well? In this case “Ghouled” would have gotten different characteristics than it has now – slightly less undead than “Undead” (which is somewhat funny, but makes sense, considering the alignment situation and the fact that Necro as a Class isn’t evil as such, which is pretty hard to believe, obviously).

    Which means, when you want to use the word “balance”, the question is more like, whether the Necro Class is in line with what Classes are and are not in the game.

    Consider Theocrat. That class is very similar to Necro with a view on Healing buffs: Order of Healing gives Healing to Supports as well, and Prayer for the Hurt gives an additional +6 Regeneration. Evangelists have Healing as well, and a couple of units get or have Resurgence. Their best unit is a machine, though (that doesn’t profit from that).
    Would you say, because of that Healing aspect racial regeneration could be scrapped anmd made no difference? Would it matter if special Regeneration was lost? I don’t think, anyone would like it, even if it was balanced – and anyway there was no need for that.
    So how is Necro different? The difference is mainly 1) They can heal in cities with Embalmer’s Guild (so this is cheaper than Master’s Guild for Machines); 2) they get a dedicated Healer a lot sooner than Theo with Evangelist and 3) Instead of having a couple of units with Resurgence they have Lesser and Greater Reanimation (with resurgence for their Scout as well).
    Now, you can discuss back and forth, whether the loss of all regeneration is covered or not with Necro, and whether this is all balanced or not – but that’s not the question. You could say “unbalanced” only when it was not enough healing (since you took away regeneration), but not whether it was “too much”, because “too much” is quite difficult to define.

    The question is, whether it makes sense, not whether it’s balanced.

    In one sentence, I think that the way “undead” is defined is taking away a tad too much racial identity – needlessly, since there is no need at all, to make ghouls undead as well; undead could be undead and ghouls ghouls (with a slightly different characteristics than undead), allowing a tad more racial identity.

    But what am I supposed to prove with that?

    #209962

    kwibus
    Member

    JJ is having a lonely crusade here 🙂

    #209971

    And that is why he has to fight on Lord Kwibus. Even a heretic can put on a antipope and become the only true fate.

    still I don’t share his opinion and he should be open to listen to other people. but that is not my problem, nor war to fight.

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