If you could replace one unit…

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions If you could replace one unit…

This topic contains 24 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Charlatan 7 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #168339

    Hatmage
    Member

    Hello, Everybody. Just thought it would be fun to discuss as a thought exercise (and potentially interesting to future modders) what people would change if they could replace one unit for a race or class of their choice. Or both.

    Personally, I will admit to not liking the warbreed. It doesn’t feel military to me, and I don’t know what the spiky cylinder it wields is supposed to be, so let’s redesign it.

    Part of the issue is that it is both a giant and a racial unit. Individually, these are thematically suited to the warlord, but I feel they have mixed poorly. Let’s throw out the racial unit part and make it a spell, even if summoning isn’t very warlord. The Cyclops (awaken cyclops, 80 mana) would be a warlord support unit. This means it has true sight, but cannot learn martial arts. Possibly because it is still 2 stories tall. It would fill a similar role in sieges to the warbreed, that being to crush walls, and gain dispel and hurl boulder with medals. In turn for this versatility it would downgrade from regrowth to regeneration. Æsthetically it would be clad in brass armour and wield what was recognisably a hammer.

    Now that i’ve wasted your time, let’s have someone show me up with a less rambling and better expressed unit replacement idea.

    #168347

    Jaduggar
    Member

    Well, when I found out that they were going to swap out the goblin skewers for the old butcher units, I sort of had my fingers crossed that other races would get an odd t2 unit in the mix as well. As if each race would have one unit that was a tier above the rest, that only that race had access too, and if you controlled several races you could combine these off advantages together for a more powerful base army (which would have been a fun incentive to diversify, as a counterbalance to Racial Governance, which will surely favor monoculture).

    When this idea crossed me, I hoped in particular for a t2 archer in place of the current elven t1. It wouldnt need a new appearance or anything, just some new base abilities. Elves would have been the obvious choice for a higher tier archer, afterall.

    In fact, now that I have seen the post patch changes, I would like to see this unit in particular get upped to a t2 more than I did before, for a few reasons:

    ONE> The elves did not get too many exciting edits, and I think this would give them something unique, and help them feel less bland, by comparison.

    TWO> Their longbows no longer are that special, considering how many other units have unique archery skills.

    and, THREE> I still do not like how elven archers are outshined by the Goblins

    I would imagine the new t2 archer as being the same as the base unit, visually, and with no extra base damage (this has been discussed to death in the past, and you really dont want to give them big base damage). The difference would rise from new abilities. Maybe give them a buckler, and therefore the shield ability, and a touch more armor, as well as an activateable of some kind. Think of a once per combat tirgger skill, such as an AOE arrow attack or a shot that fires straight up in the air and comes down 2-3 turns later, striking a random enemy. Or perhaps a once per combat electricity+spirit charged shot that has a chance to stun the opponent (although this would make them slightly too similar to Storm Sisters).

    #168370

    Khelle
    Member

    Regarding elves they were quite unique at the start of the game with both longbow abilities and phasing ability. Telling the truth, they do not need new abilities at all. However, taking into account new quite powerful abilities of other races such as defensive strike of dwarves, high mobility of tigrans, damga increase from orcs I think they should get a little stats update. I think +1 res for each Elven unit would suffice to make them keep up with other races, and also empower that profile of elves being high resistant to magic, which was lost somehow since game premiere.
    The next thing, I would add longbowman perk (but rename it) to each elven ranged unit. If I am correct, still some ranged elven units miss it, like musketeers.
    In my opinion this would bring back nice flavour of elves to the game.

    #168374

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    Elves may have gotten the best improvement of all races. The synergy with some classes is great and all around good. Also, wait until you see their Racial Government tree.

    Longbows are are far better than Mosquito darts in mid game and anything above average armor and resistance will do fine against darts. It just doesn’t scale, although awesome early game they are very very weak in HP.

    Adding one extra resistance is “much” more valuable than adding one point into defense stats. It would make a lot more difference than you could jusify its change for flavour reasons. Elves have a very good unit setup and they are mainly balanced in their lack of healing.

    #168378

    Jaduggar
    Member

    I think +1 res for each Elven unit would suffice to make them keep up with other races, and also empower that profile of elves being high resistant to magic, which was lost somehow since game premiere.
    The next thing, I would add longbowman perk (but rename it) to each elven ranged unit. If I am correct, still some ranged elven units miss it, like musketeers.

    I dont think elves should get longbow bonuses on muskets… thats a different weapon entirely. As for being resistant to magic: what about a halfling style percent based magic dodge ability? 10% chance to avoid magical effects, always. No changes for moral or other features, just a small flat chance in addition to res.

    Longbows are are far better than Mosquito darts in mid game and anything above average armor and resistance will do fine against darts. It just doesn’t scale, although awesome early game they are very very weak in HP.

    …fair enough, those are good points.

    #168400

    Hatmage
    Member

    Humans got even less than elves in the changes. Part of me wants halberdiers to get some sort of “Hooked weapon” ability causing extra damage and/or movement point drain on opportunity attacks, to represent proper use of the back of the halberd, though they are probably the best and most unique unit in the human lineup already, being to pikeneers what black knights are to cavalry.

    #168402

    Khelle
    Member

    I dont think elves should get longbow bonuses on muskets… thats a different weapon entirely.

    That’s why I told the name of this perk should be renamed. Because not having range penalties mean that archers are extremely skilled, not that they use better bows. So it should not matter what kind of weapon elves use – it’s thanks to their hawk-eyes they do so much damage in high range.
    I think that having elven range-damage units that split to the ones having this ability and ones that don’t is very confusing to the players.

    Adding one extra resistance is “much” more valuable than adding one point into defense stats.

    I can argue, because of very high % of restistance abilities on both units an heroes. I for myself find defense much more valuable than resistance.

    The synergy with some classes is great and all around good. Also, wait until you see their Racial Government tree.

    Fair enough 🙂

    Longbows are are far better than Mosquito darts in mid game

    I really don’t understand why eleven longbowman are so overrated on these forums. I gave them multiple tries on my games, but couldn’t find any oomph to them. They start to become useless as early as mid game hits with its T3 units, takin into account only T1 units pool union guards perform much better because of their bonuses again mounted units which are very common type on T3 units, and last but not least their cost is so high I can’t build them fast in small cities, and in average and big it is better to keep spawning T2/T3 units.

    #168500

    Wintermoore
    Member

    My sentiment is on Human cavalry. They are like a prelude to Knights, doesn’t produce them once Knights are available. Both High Elf and Goblin T2 cavalry remain viable even when their T3 cavalry are available.

    My suggestion will be remove “Evolve” but give them Net@Veteran and Sprint@Elite making them the best offensive “support” cavalry.

    #168505

    Mosquito darters are extremely strong and the only archer that improves as more cover and obstacles are on a tactical map, the opposite of all other archers. Also the only archer that is useful in an offensive siege. The only weakness they have is shared by all other archers (cavalry).

    #168666

    freese2112
    Member

    I really don’t understand why eleven longbowman are so overrated on these forums. I gave them multiple tries on my games, but couldn’t find any oomph to them. They start to become useless as early as mid game hits with its T3 units, takin into account only T1 units pool union guards perform much better because of their bonuses again mounted units which are very common type on T3 units, and last but not least their cost is so high I can’t build them fast in small cities, and in average and big it is better to keep spawning T2/T3 units.

    I exclusively play SP (which definitely impacts my analysis) – but my experience is very different, so I’ll comment. I’ve found that HE LB are enough reason to play elves almost all by themselves. And if you’re able to get a Focus Chamber up an running early – they’re RIDICULOUSLY powerful.

    HE LB’s are so powerful because in most cases when they are 100% effective if they are in range, and at range almost all units can only hit them once, which lets a player be able to kill them off which then enables them to shoot again.

    Key things to make them successful:
    1) They are MUCH more effective if the target isn’t in guardian mode. This means that you need to have a meatshield target. With the Beta patch, the AI isn’t necessarily going to charge anything in range, so this has become more difficult
    2) Multiple HE LB synergize well by their ability to kill units that have tied up other other archer units.
    3) Elite level damage potential when considering ongoing maintenance. At 4 GP per turn, ongoing maintenance means that you can maintain 8 HE LB’s or 1 T4. Other contenders for this are HE Hunters, HE Mounted Archers, Goblin Wargs @ Gold, etc.
    4) HE LB’s are IMO the only T1 unit’s that maintains it’s usefulness pretty much at every point in time during the game. At the later point of the game though – they should be the “extra” units that are “tagging along” and not in a core army. Obviously they can’t take a hit like a T2/T3, but if you’ve got a couple “extra” units of HE LB, they are difference makers.
    5) Ridiculously effective when target has been hit with Degenerate. Pretty much 2 HE LB’s can vaporize a Manticore Rider in the Dungeon if it’s not on guard mode.
    6) Synergize amazingly when Druid Spell “Twisted Roots” up.

    Understand that they’re going to struggle with:
    1) Really high defense targets (T3 & T4’s on guard)
    2) Units with reinforced, projectile resistance or non-flanking shots at targets with shield.
    3) Situations where you’re outnumbered by a significant number of units.

    #168772

    Shockhazard
    Member

    Don’t think anything needs replacing, but I do hope we can see Goblin Skewers as neutral stacks and for sale at Inn’s in campaign and in skirmish games. Disagree with op though, Warbreed is one of my favourite units btw 😛 Orc warbreed with tireless and killing machine? Mucho trouble for enemy stacks. Hell, I like them for tankiness for all races. Goblins, Elves and Halflings.

    About human Cavalry, only thing I miss is that they start out as Trooper or Veterans when they become Knights. Same for HE Initiates, or perhaps for any evolving units I think.
    Btw, did humans lose the net ability ? Think I saw it on human hunters, but that’s all?

    #168782

    quo
    Member

    Warbreeds are one of my least favorite units too. They just don’t really fit for me thematically. The backstory on them is super creepy. (It literally starts with: “Gerta was the Warlord’s favorite concubine, a beastly woman, more ogre than person. Still he lavished gifts on her, and in return she gave him many babies.”) Not really fitting with my image of a lot of heroic type Warlords.

    I think the Warlord unit I’d have preferred would have been some kind of Support unit. A Tactician or a Medical Crew or even some kind of specialized Trebuchet.

    #168785

    Gloweye
    Member

    Btw, did humans lose the net ability ? Think I saw it on human hunters, but that’s all?

    Should still be on Engineers and Scoundrels…

    #168787

    Sunicle
    Member

    Weird enough, when thinking about it after only having read the title of this thread, I also came up with the Warbreed. I just find it an ugly bastard that somehow for me doesn’t fit into the style of the game.
    I wouldn’t mind the Warbreed as enemy, I think, but in most races’ line-up he doesn’t fit.

    #168801

    Shockhazard
    Member

    Yeah I found them, but I swear it used to be more common on human units. Might be me imagining it.

    #168820

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Warbreeds are by far my least favorite units – it’s not even remotely close. And I don’t think making them a summon is a bad idea. They are so wrong as a racial unit, both aesthetically and thematically. What an abomination in every sense of the word.

    #168894

    Hatmage
    Member

    Seeing as nobody else has suggested a replacement, I have similar issues with the shadow stalker to what I have with the warbreed. I intend, should the possibilty arise, to mod in a “Condemned Man” as a similar replacement, with a lore justification that the spirits of executed thieves can be invoked to protect their living brothers in the trade, and graphics to match (still having a noose dangling from the neck would be a nice touch). The shadow stalker lookss more … like a deadlifting wringwraith than I feel any rogue unit should. It could have worked well with a sort of urban-legendy theme, but I’m not really sold on the current model and fluff.

    And in the name of offering a mechanical redesign, I would like to see the human longswordsman bumped up a tier. Having what seem to be german doppelsoldner as a tier one feels odd, and having them at tier two would see them literally earn double pay compared to regular troops. The meat of the upgrade would be martial arts, based on the idea in german greatsword fighting manuals that the only correct action to take in a swordfight is that which simultaneously foils a foes strike while striking at him, so that you always remain on the offensive and your foe never gets to land a solid blow. The new guard breaker ability might also fit well. Defender would not. Incorporeal is right out.

    #169084

    Charlatan
    Member

    The shadow stalker lookss more … like a deadlifting wringwraith than I feel any rogue unit should.

    While I totally disagree with you in terms of Warbreed -VS- Cyclops, this is exactly what I thought xD

    Their strengths in combat reflect this too – they may have Backstab and all, but when it comes down to it, their physical resistance does allow the steroid-stalkers to go in with total brute force.

    #169108

    quo
    Member

    I agree about Shadowstalker. The Rogue class as a whole to me always kind of felt like a mashup between a Rogue and a Warlock because of the Shadow Stalker, and to a lesser extent the Succubi. I can live with it though because it’s a summon.

    I’ve always been surprised Warbreeds are not a summon. They just feel… off. If we had to have a big hitter melee unit, just making them some kind of Elite ground troop would have felt much more Warlord-y.

    #169153

    Epaminondas
    Member

    The Rogue class as a whole to me always kind of felt like a mashup between a Rogue and a Warlock because of the Shadow Stalker, and to a lesser extent the Succubi. I can live with it though because it’s a summon.

    I pretty much agree with every letter of this truncated paragraph. Perhaps I am your evil twin? (Or father, given my senility? :))

    I’ve always been surprised Warbreeds are not a summon. They just feel… off. If we had to have a big hitter melee unit, just making them some kind of Elite ground troop would have felt much more Warlord-y.

    My God, again agree. Given the existence of sturdy foot troops for the class in the form of the Phalanx, I would’ve gone for a uber-hard-hitting cavalry – something like the Knight on steroids.

    #169383

    Gyor
    Member

    I like warbreed, in a world like this where you have Orges that are half breeds like orgers which are useful in a fight, but are not the smartest it makes sense that as a Warlord you’d want to refine them to the point of making them a better weapon, and what better and simpler way to do that then to breed your race or other races with worthwhile traits with orgers to combine thier size and power with the other races strength while using selective breeding to insure the best warbreeds breed more of them in turn.

    So that Warlord say breeds an orger with a Draconian which hatchs into a Draconian Warbreed which is a mix of orger and the humaniod descendants of a red dragon, the strength and force of the orger and its size, the fire resistance and greater intellilect of a draconian, and the military training that a Warlord can give, its the Warlords way of breeding super soldiers.

    As for Shadow Stalker and Succubi, the lesser shadow stalker really makes the point, they’re not summoned, they’re made using the Planar Gate, infused over time with various planar energies unleashed from the planar gate,8these mortals end up twisted into something magical and inhuman. Succubi are women who get infused with infernal and sexual energy, turning them into demonic seductionists, and Scoundrels get infused with Shadow Energy, perhaps from the shadow plane, with the surviving scoundrel becoming a lesser shadow stalker and then a full shadow stalker. This has given me an idea.

    #169399

    Hatmage
    Member

    Ogres (not “orgers”) should not reasonably be capable of interbreeding with every race in athla. Especially not draconians, who are not even mammals. And going by the lore, shouldn’t creating warbreeds then be an act of evil? And if you are aiming to make the best possible combatant, ethical concerns be damned, things like mobility, ranged capability, the inteligence to maintain equipment, the ability to parry, and the ability to fit into stock armour, allowing for cheap mass produced armies would be priorities. The warbreed would crush any horse it sat on (though it would look better, if we stuck it on a tiny pony), seems to show no intelect whatsoever, could not operate even a crossbow, and can’t be fully armoured because it is the size of a barn.

    My main issue with the shadow stalker is that it doesn’t look capable of stealth or stalking. If I were to guess what one should look like from the name it would be a small thing on all fours, seen only from the corner of your eye, big shiny eyes and teeth that are closer every time you look, footprints only its current mark can hear and other such spooky nonsense. Or just not a giant floating baloon mascot.

    #169402

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I was thinking that no sane non-Ogre male would want to breed with an Ogre female, and thus that it makes more sense for the Warbreed to be an offspring of an Ogre male and non-Ogre female. But then I realized anatomically that such a union would not be possible (hint: too damn big!), so I guess Ogre female it is. Still, there likely won’t be friction, so it would be some sort of artificial insemination.

    Really, thinking through this issue makes me ill! ;(

    #169517

    Gloweye
    Member

    Ogres (not “orgers”) should not reasonably be capable of interbreeding with every race in athla.

    According to the lore, Ogres themselves are created by interbreeding Giants and (humans? lesser races anyway…). So that scaling down one more isn’t that stupid IMHO. Though you can of course not like the idea.

    #169817

    Charlatan
    Member

    I just wanted to state my congratulations, it does take an impressive imagination and/or love for detail to get from “If you could replace one unit” to “artificial insemination” so fast.

    :p

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