Initiates

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Initiates

This topic contains 7 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  haloloki 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #173747

    haloloki
    Member

    So I have bought this subject up before in other forums and people have bought up some good points to state why they were still useful, but now with the addition of one new MCU, i believe the initiate has become useless in its purpose.

    The old argument i use to have was i didn’t think it was worth the time to lvl up an initiate to storm sister, People responded with but if you have a mercenary camp you can get more defense and damage and that will pass along to the storm sister. At the time i thought OK that’s good enough for me and i left it at that. But now with the storm sister having total awareness(not having to worry about defense as much), the new mcu giving supports the same buff but with resistance instead of defense(which makes 3 possible upgrades u can get on one unit if you were lucky enough) and the fact outside of warlord instead lvling your initiate during the ultimate spell that it would be easier to produce a storm sister. I am just not seeing the point of this unit anymore. =(

    Can anyone bring up any points why this unit is worth the trouble of producing?

    In the old forum i also said id like to see the initiate evolve into maybe a tier 2 irregular so they could keep the bonus and be more useful to other classes. This would be my ideal solution lol, but i know this cant happen in the time frame towards the expansion so i was hoping for some sort of transferrable buff or something that initiates get that would make it worth it for them to be trained again.

    #173820

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Lower cost and upkeep, and they don’t require a Temple(and precursor Shrine) to produce. 75 Gold for a Shrine, and 100 Gold/50 Mana for the Temple, as well as the time involved(Yes, I know they provide Mana income, and eventually 1-turn Storm Sisters are obviously more useful). If you need some units, and you need them now, while also not having the buildings or production for more useful defenders, then…
    You don’t build Initiates to field as armies. You build them as cheap defenders against minor scouting forces.

    Well, a Warlord might also Raise Militia and use them to clear structures, but that’s different.

    The fact that they utilize a damage channel on their ranged attack that no race naturally resists(Elven Initiates and Storm Sisters aside themselves aside), makes them a solid counter-scout unit when produced in modest groups, against all but Wisps. Shock Protection can even help them somewhat hold their own in that encounter, although they will likely lose 1 on 1.

    #173843

    haloloki
    Member

    Lower cost and upkeep, and they don’t require a Temple(and precursor Shrine) to produce. 75 Gold for a Shrine, and 100 Gold/50 Mana for the Temple, as well as the time involved(Yes, I know they provide Mana income, and eventually 1-turn Storm Sisters are obviously more useful). If you need some units, and you need them now, while also not having the buildings or production for more useful defenders, then…
    You don’t build Initiates to field as armies. You build them as cheap defenders against minor scouting forces.
    Well, a Warlord might also Raise Militia and use them to clear structures, but that’s different.

    The fact that they utilize a damage channel on their ranged attack that no race naturally resists(Elven Initiates and Storm Sisters aside themselves aside), makes them a solid counter-scout unit when produced in modest groups, against all but Wisps. Shock Protection can even help them somewhat hold their own in that encounter, although they will likely lose 1 on 1.

    While i agree with you on most of these points that you made fen. IDK how to explain it properly its more that they are underutilized in that’s is probably all there good for. I just feel they could be utilized better with an upgrade while lvling that passed across to storm sisters.
    Or even a new evolution to make them more unique a melee focused storm sister, where they could keep there shock bolt but get better in melee and still be an irregular maybe even get stunning projectiles so they still have a chance to stun then run in a finish off targets with there much more potent physical attacks.

    I guess you could also say one of the main reasons i am frustrated is that 1. the new frostling and tigran irregulars seem so strong and synergise well with there whole army while until you can make storm sisters the initiate is just like what you said a cheaper version of a storm sister that has its qulaities for defending cities and clearing treasure sites.

    The main reason i want this tier 2 change is probably because goblins and frostlings have an extra tier 2 in there pikeman i was hoping to have a new tier 2 unit for high elves that you could say were stronger in the end then most tiers 2s but had to evolve and needed the dedication to make them that way.

    p.s i do want all races to get a new tier 2 to be even with the others lol and also ive had a stressful and emotional day so i might not be seeing things really clearly atm and might be just be ranting about something that i guess isnt as important to triumph or other people lol

    #173902

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    I guess you could also say one of the main reasons i am frustrated is that 1. the new frostling and tigran irregulars seem so strong and synergise well with there whole army while until you can make storm sisters the initiate is just like what you said a cheaper version of a storm sister that has its qulaities for defending cities and clearing treasure sites.

    Elves are considered one of the most solid races in the game with very good synergy to several classes. Both Tigran and Frostling units have serious disadvantages as 40% Fire Weakness for Frostlings and -1 res and 20% Cold Weakness for Tigran units is a big deal.

    It is no fun to meet Flamers, Lesser Fire Elementals, Hatchlings, Draconian Elders or Raptors with Frostling units, and it is no fun to go up against Whisps or Phantasm Warriors as Tigran. These are all very common and especially auto battling them is a pain! 😉

    #176765

    ninninnin
    Member

    I guess you could also say one of the main reasons i am frustrated is that 1. the new frostling and tigran irregulars seem so strong and synergise well with there whole army

    conceptually they are ridiculous units. auto flank pounce? hurl net? hard cc on a basic attack? i guess they gotta sell the dlc somehow.
    but these are gimmicks, ill save my judgement until we see actual saving throws and other numbers.

    as for initiates themselves having a non physical attack is already a huge bonus for that early in the game considering how res doesnt tend to get as crazy as defense so they can contribute a lot more when taking on creep camps with knights, etc. their damage doesnt really fall off either if you havent been getting them killed.
    unlike hatchlings and untouchables though they cant “melee” with their shot but theyre already doing 1 more damage due to their elven bs so it kind of evens out no?

    #176787

    Fenraellis
    Member

    auto flank pounce? hurl net? hard cc on a basic attack?

    I’ll give you the Ice Ball having a hard CC, but Pounce doesn’t deal Flanking damage, and Hurl Net at least requires a T2 Racial Governance perk(likely turn 15-20+, circumstances depending).

    Nonetheless, I’ll have to look into the relative check strength of Hurl Net vs Throw Net again.

    #177214

    Gyor
    Member

    The Frostlings pay for that T2 Pikemen by being double dependant, first on Support units, and secondly the Support Units are dependant on the Royal Guards (okay Royal Guards are mostly dependant on Supports for +2 defence from pledge of protection, then anything else because they can do inflict chilling already, and at T2 racial goverance, gain +1 Defence and Life Stealing).

    #177805

    haloloki
    Member

    ok so some points have been made and i can see the point of the first half of my argument how they are useful in different ways and such but no one unless i have missed it has responded to the second part about a new evolution irregular for the initiate instead of storm sister to another irregular t2

    Im sorta over this thing i wrote lol was having a bad day at the time. But in the back of my mind i wouldnt mind a different evolution for the initiate as they would still do all the same stuff just have a different evolution and the storm sister would be seperate but if people dont like the idea im not gonna cry and whine and bitch about it (as long as you bring up a good counter argument to my problems, which evryone has =p).

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