Is it me, or are low level Animal units terrible?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Is it me, or are low level Animal units terrible?

This topic contains 26 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Voyager I 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 27 posts - 1 through 27 (of 27 total)
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  • #216218

    quo
    Member

    I just can’t wrap my head around low level Animal units and their function in this game.

    A few of them have Evolve, which is okay. I understand that’s part of a gambit for Arch Druids where they can, with some degree of luck and XP farming, obtain T3s early.

    But the rest of them? I just don’t understand them. They die constantly. They have very few special abilities (e.g. the Tiger unit can’t leap attack?)

    What am I missing? Why is there a low level Summon spell for Arch Druids that summons them at the same price of actually good units like Cherubs and Drones? I just don’t get it. I’m not saying we necessarily need to rebalance them, but maybe we do if there is agreement that these units are not useful?

    #216221

    Ad use them as either cannon fodder or cheap scouts (wargs and boars and dire penguins) or precious evolution balls (spiders and serpents). Works pretty well as is (since ad need units in front of their archers and supports).

    #216222

    Zaskow
    Member

    Warg and Boar have terrible damage. I’d give them +2 melee at least.
    Also AD lacks reliable fast scout. Hunter is expensive for this role.

    #216236

    Ericridge
    Member

    I would love it if the Tigers ingame would get pounce ability. I was so disappointed when I found out it didn’t have that. Still didn’t stop my dreadnought from lvling one to elite though XD

    #216248

    Wallthing
    Member

    Pounce and maybe some concealment options. Possibly dependent on climate and terrain?

    #216251

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think t1 animals are crap but that its fine – AD is very powerful as is, that is a necessary weakness. Any buff to animals necessitates a nerf to other AD units, which many players will object to.

    #216263

    zlefin
    Member

    I agree that low level animal units are often quite terrible. I don’t mind for archdruids, because its part of being an archdruid; it is however a bit annoying when it comes to the animals you pickup from taking great farms. They just seem so weak compared to other tier 1 units, especially the melee ones.

    #216265

    Fenraellis
    Member

    … Ignoring the Evolving units for obvious reasons:
    — Dire Penguin: Actually quite a bit more useful than expected sometimes. Also, Swimming.
    — Boar: 36 Movement, and Charge. Certainly not strong, but a decent scout.
    — Warg: 36 Movement, and Overwhelm. Again, not strong, but a decent scout.
    — Tiger: Awesome base stats, 12 Strength and 10 Def. Predator and Bloodthirsty(and Bleeding Wounds at Rank).

    Now, aside from the fact that ANY Animal can get +3 Strength and +500 Morale from Awaken Spirit, as well as the combination of +5 Strength, Overwhelm, Charge, First Strike, Armor Piercing, Wall Crushing from Savage Rage(something which is frequently forgotten)…
    I could easily see Boar and Warg getting, say, +2 Strength, as Zaskow also mentioned, for an even 10 base.

    Also, Dire Penguins increased to 7/4 damage, from the current 6/3, to match the Spiders hybrid damage output.

    #216268

    Ericridge
    Member

    I agree that low level animal units are often quite terrible. I don’t mind for archdruids, because its part of being an archdruid; it is however a bit annoying when it comes to the animals you pickup from taking great farms. They just seem so weak compared to other tier 1 units, especially the melee ones.

    I don’t even care lol, I just use them as a way to increase the amount of scouts I have very quickly. They’re very great for that purpose. However if I get a tiger and one of my units get killed somehow, I will use that tiger as part of my army like they’re my personal attack dogs.

    #216280

    Zaskow
    Member

    — Boar: 36 Movement, and Charge. Certainly not strong, but a decent scout.
    — Warg: 36 Movement, and Overwhelm. Again, not strong, but a decent scout.

    They lack Mountaineering and Swimming to be decent scouts.

    #216283

    Bob5
    Member

    They lack Mountaineering and Swimming to be decent scouts.

    Warlord Scouts don’t have Mountaineering or Forestry until you get Off the Beaten Path running or you’re using Dwarf/Elf Scouts.

    #216284

    NINJEW
    Member

    snakes can be useful for scouting rivers because they have swimming

    #216287

    ExNihil
    Member

    I wouldn’t mind a small buff to wargs and boars, they both should get predator and perhaps also athletics.

    What I would love to see is better Eldrich animals and esp. more diversity. As AD I rarely summon these animals because they don’t give any benefits I can’t get from t1 units (animals and hunters).

    #216292

    NINJEW
    Member

    athletics isn’t a small buff on a unit that can charge

    #216306

    Bob5
    Member

    Eldritch already got buffed with the addition of the Bear to the summon list. The elephant is also quite good with Devastating Charge.

    #216309

    NINJEW
    Member

    mammoth is pretty sweet too for the same reason, and the other animals all have dual channel damage, except the panther which gets pounce, and the polarbear which is fairly tanky. gryphons aren’t great but they do give you a flier, great for your AD scouting woes and flank shenanigans

    #216324

    Zaskow
    Member

    Warlord Scouts don’t have Mountaineering or Forestry until you get Off the Beaten Path running or you’re using Dwarf/Elf Scouts.

    You’re wrong. All Warlord scouts get Mountaineering.

    #216326

    NINJEW
    Member

    yeah scouts get mountaineers and swimming. no wetland walking or forestry though

    #216336

    Hatmage
    Member

    I’ve suggested previously that wolves/wargs, as predators that take down animals far larger than themselves, could recieve animal slayer as a situational buff. It’s not about to make them overpowered, owing to its narrow scope, but it might make them handier to have around in combat, and less totally disposable, and I feel it fits well thematically.

    #216348

    quo
    Member

    Would the Warg make more sense as a kind of tank unit? Maybe give it Projectile Resistance due to its tough hide?

    Also the Tiger feels to me more like some kind of horse. LOL. It has to run up to things and kick them in the face like a Unicorn or Felhorse does. Surely it should at least have Pounce for thematic reasons?

    #216349

    Zaskow
    Member

    Would the Warg make more sense as a kind of tank unit? Maybe give it Projectile Resistance due to its tough hide?

    Additional +2 def against projectiles won’t make them “tankier”.

    #216352

    Ericridge
    Member

    Wargs was also buffed recently I think, they gained first strike.

    And animals will stay the way they is generally I believe because they are creeping mobs.

    #216357

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, there are now 3 abilities that appear on Tigrans that are thematically fitting for many animals:

    Predator
    Blood Thirsty
    Athletics

    At least some of them should appear on animals, perhaps alongside Inflict Bleeding Wounds and so forth.

    #218671

    Loki-330
    Member

    Perhaps. I love the idea of being able to build a class related improvement (the druid 3 building?) that lets you put barding on your animals; an armour plated warg would certainly liven things up for the enemies, but it wouldn’t really solve anything (you’d just put barding on your giant spiders instead) and it would still mean wargs and boars aren’t nearly as useful. A building to train animals and buff up their stats instead? Then again, the same question appears-why buff up the wargs and boars with it, when you can just buff up your spiders?

    Even ignoring evolution, the spider’s ability to web things means you can potentially shred even a large tough opponent with spiders. The penguins are a more niche unit imo-while they’re clearly poor for land battles I find they shine as scouts on island maps, or swimming down rivers. They’re the amphibious tier 1 unit.

    #218675

    NINJEW
    Member

    better question: why do any of those units need buffs at all, when AD is already very powerful in the early game?

    #218747

    Akinaba
    Member

    Two threads on one topic? Not too much? On the other hand it shows that those Anials realy are not satisfying.

    On topic:

    better question: why do any of those units need buffs at all, when AD is already very powerful in the early game?

    Simply because poor (I mean uninteresting) units mean a poor game experience, which is NOT FUN, which is the goal of the game in the first place, isn’t it?

    If you worry about buffing AD too much then there is a radical decision: just remove Wargs and Boars from the game and be with it. But is it really a good decision to move a unit out of the game. There is only one example of it yet.

    Another question is: do you really think that buffing Warg and Boar to the playable point is something that will make AD utterly powerfull? I doubt it.

    #218781

    Voyager I
    Member

    Two threads on one topic? Not too much? On the other hand it shows that those Anials realy are not satisfying.

    On topic:

    better question: why do any of those units need buffs at all, when AD is already very powerful in the early game?

    Simply because poor (I mean uninteresting) units mean a poor game experience, which is NOT FUN, which is the goal of the game in the first place, isn’t it?

    If you worry about buffing AD too much then there is a radical decision: just remove Wargs and Boars from the game and be with it. But is it really a good decision to move a unit out of the game. There is only one example of it yet.

    Another question is: do you really think that buffing Warg and Boar to the playable point is something that will make AD utterly powerfull? I doubt it.

    Yes. That was the whole point of his statement. T1 animals are basically irregular-tier units, but many of them come with a useful kicker (evolve, good elemental damage, high strategic movement speed + forestry, swimming, motherfucking webs)), Druids have cheap access to buffs that make them into formidable combat units, and if they die they can be cheaply replaced directly into a front-line stack.

    Arch Druids already have a powerful early game, so making a unit they already get great use out of even more powerful could easily push them into being overbearing.

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