Is T4 Spam Really Any Different?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Is T4 Spam Really Any Different?

This topic contains 11 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Sifer2 8 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #66579

    Unknown250
    Member

    I see a lot of threads complaining about spamming T4 units. I agree – this is something I dislike about the game. However, this is something I’ve disliked about every fantasy TBS I’ve ever played, going way back to Warlords 2 in the 90s.

    AoW 2/SM were entirely about rushing to level 4 units and cranking out as many as possible – especially on the online scene. Master of Magic really wasn’t any different, where Sky Drakes, Death Knights, and even Paladins could cut through swathes of low-mid level units with laughable ease. Even Heroes of Might and Magic, with its limited growth, still placed a heavy emphasis on level 7 units.

    The only game I can think of that partially avoided it was AoW 1, which managed to do so by making T4 units only available in certain cities. First Conflict still remains one of my favourite maps to this day, because it had no cities capable of producing units of that level. Also it was just beautifully designed in general.

    So, I understand why T4 spam is annoying, and frustrating. I do. But at the same time, it’s a convention of the genre. I personally don’t see how it’s any worse in AoW 3 than it is in most other fantasy TBS games.

    That being said, a couple of possibilities:

    1. T4s can only be built in/summoned to Metropolises. At the same time, allow the option to to place limits on how large cities can grow in the game. This would make sense: It would take an enormous amount of infrastructure/power to build/summon a unit of that strength. Allowing us to place growth limits on cities could also lead to all sorts of fun scenarios, unrelated to the problem at hand.

    2. T4s can only be built in/summoned to the Throne city. Similar idea, but now it’s capped to one city that’s always in the game.

    3. Give all T4s an ability called “Legendary,” or something. Like Transport, units that have the Legendary ability can’t be in a stack with other units that have the Legendary ability.

    4. A GalCiv-style logistics system. This would involve hugely revamping the way AoW works, so I’m not holding out much hope for it, but it’s a possibility. The idea here is that every empire has a Logistics limit. This indicates how many units can be grouped together in a stack. Every unit would have a Logistics value, which would be linked to their tier: Higher tier units cost more Logistics than lower tiers. T4 units might cost enough logistics that you could only ever have one per stack – but how do you use the rest of those logistics? Do you add two T3s to the stack? Or four T2s? A mix?

    Anyway, these are just some ideas. All of this is to say that, yes, T4 spam is bad, and ideally something that should be fixed, but at the same time it seems a little unfair to blame AoW 3 for it.

    #66632

    I like the throne city idea you have there and it could work well for a new game mode.

    What are your thoughts on T4 giant animal summons? They seem a lot worse than the horned god to me (especially the carrion bird) and if I could only put one T4 in a stack I don’t think I’d use them much. Of course, having a whole stack of those in one army wouldn’t be fair either if the non-druids are stuck with 1 per stack. It’s almost like you’d need a point system on a per-T4 basis, but nobody really wants to go there, do they? :p

    #66637

    thabob79
    Member

    T4 summon are way harder to spam anyway you dont have as many casters as you have cities

    #66671

    All good suggestions but won’t it shift the “spam” to massed tier 3?

    Multiple knights- would that be any more interesting than massed Manticores?

    #66685

    Indrid
    Member

    I really think all the units should be limited in some way (or at least give us the option to). Spam is never fun, and limiting things are what makes your choices matter. End-ish game (if that), you typically have enough resources to purchase and rush the highest tier units, so why wouldn’t you? The choice is gone, so it’s much less compelling. This always happens in these kinds of game. You can prevent it. Keep the game more balanced and thematic. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s a massive problem and unit veterancy helps to combat it. Could mean some really cheesy armies in MP though.

    There are plenty of ways to do it, but a simple one would be to limit the army compositions themselves:
    3 T2 units
    2 T3 units
    2 Hero units
    1 T4 unit

    T1 units would be unlimited. With the amount of different races you can absorb you’d have plenty of choices for army composition, and lower tier units would stay relevant. The Hero limit is there to prevent a super army of five high level Heros + one T4 steamrolling things.

    Please give it some thought Triumph. Would make the end game much better IMO.

    #66692

    Harv
    Member

    I don’t have any problem with T4s being good enough to form the bulk of an endgame army, I just think it should take longer to get to that point. Right now cities grow so fast, new cities are so cheap and easy to make, and research is so easy to boost that an empire can zoom right to an “endgame” state with very little need to fight using lower tier units.

    T1/2 skirmishes -> T3 border battles -> T4 final battles is a perfectly satisfying progression as long as the first two stages are stretched out long enough.

    #66761

    terrahero
    Member

    The problem with t4 spam is the spam part. Its cool if tier4 units are a big part in a battle, but even if there is only one tier4 unit in two armies clashing that tier4 unit will strongly sway the outcome of the fight.

    The downside of this is that as you climb higher and higher in tiers, there are less and less units.
    Say i play my Warlord. Excluding independent settlements, i have one single tier4 unit.
    I’ll have 6 racial tier3 units, and 2 from my class. thats 8.
    I get 3 tier2 from my class aswell as 12 racial tier2’s, so thats 15 units.
    And then i have 24 racial tier1 units, none from my class.

    There will be some variances depending on your class, f.e. Dreadnought has 3 tier3 units, 1 tier2 and 1 tier1. But the point should be clear. The more high tech the unit spam becomes the smaller and narrower the unit diversity becomes. Untill its just Manticore riders vs Juggernauts, which to me is not as interesting.
    It also strikes me as a bit of a shame to have so much development time and effort see so little use when you get to mid or late game.

    #66763

    Derner
    Member

    Sure they MUST do something , this game is just boring after reaching T4…no interest just boring…A cap or more T4 units ….For me i will stop playing no interest in this T4 spam. See you in few weeks if something new.

    #66791

    terrahero
    Member

    Luckily this seems to be on the devs radar when looking at the upcomming patchnotes. They are looking to slow down research aswell as nerfing the baseline production rate of cities.

    #66803

    Unknown250
    Member

    All good suggestions but won’t it shift the “spam” to massed tier 3?

    Multiple knights- would that be any more interesting than massed Manticores?

    I’m not sure. I feel as though the smaller power gap there (in my experience, a T2 unit will stand up much better to a T3 unit than a T3 unit would to a T4 would make that less likely, but I really have no way of knowing for sure.

    AoW 1 still had my personal favourite way of balancing out tiers, but I realize that this just wouldn’t be possible with the current city model.

    #66817

    Diair
    Member

    Spammed T3 with a smattering of T4 is definitely preferable to what is happening now. T3 can be killed relatively easily by T1 units, which means more varied battles and strategies available to the player.

    #66886

    Sifer2
    Member

    All good suggestions but won’t it shift the “spam” to massed tier 3?

    Multiple knights- would that be any more interesting than massed Manticores?

    Yeah Tier 3 is almost just as bad really. Those flying Draconian Infantry have great mobility while still being pretty strong. Enemy is going to have leave quite a defense force to stop them from ninja capping a city. The problem is that both Tier 3 and 4 are not that much more expensive than 2. But far more effective in combat. So when weighing your options on what to produce an put in your limited sized stacks your going with the Tier 3 an 4’s every time. Simply nerfing the ability to put multiple T4’s in a stack or something is a bandaid fix that doesn’t address the main problem.

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