Is there hope/demand for cosmetic changes to bards,mounted archers & crusaders?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Is there hope/demand for cosmetic changes to bards,mounted archers & crusaders?

This topic contains 29 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  razzafazza 7 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #201573

    razzafazza
    Member

    Hi guys, maybe I m alone in this ( I hope not ) but one thing that annoys me to no end in AOW3 (which I otherwise consider to be an absolutely great game) are the graphics for SOME of the class units for SOME races.

    The worst offenders for me being Bards for EVEY race … followed by mounted archers and crusaders for SOME races.

    I otherwise love these units for the role they could fill but I just cant get myself to train these units considering how dumb (sorry) and out of place they look in most armies.

    1. Bards

    I guess I could live with human/high elf bards if I really must (but even those don’t look like a fighting unit which bards still are, not civilians) but every other races bards looks like a joke: something well fitting for an easter egg but a serious downer when its supposed to be an important unit in a rogue s line-up.
    Please consider redoing bards to look more like a ”serious” “military” unit. They have weapons in the games rules, why aren’t they shown ? Why not a little light armor instead of looking like a barmaid ? Why not actual war-themed instruments like drums or trumpets, not friggen harps that nobody could even hear during battle…. I really, really, really hate their look =(

    2. Mounted Archers
    I can accept their “mongol” hats with orcs and goblins but on any other race they look really stupid. Would be great if other races could get mounted archers without helmets at all or at least helmets that fit to that race.

    3. Crusaders
    The crusader armor looks pretty good on elves and I guess semi-acceptable with humans/dwarves maybe too but otherwise I d really like if helmet and shield would be better matched to the look of the other races.

    Please keep in mind I m NOT suggesting entirely redoing those models (except perhaps for the bard) but altering them, changing details with existing assets (helmet / weapon swaps etc.). So that’s stuff a modder could do in a couple of hours if he had the right tools.

    What do you guys think ? Are you fine with the graphics on the units I mentioned ? Do you maybe have other class/race unit combinations that annoy you ? Suggestions on alternative looks ? Discuss and like said: maybe it can change something – if triumph notices there s a demand for it, maybe/hopefully its a trivial thing for them to change in a patch.

    #201591

    Hellspirit
    Member

    I just have a problem with hairless high elves xd.

    #201598

    Zaskow
    Member

    I’d like to see racial weapons for each class units when possible as here:

    or here:

    Hope it will be modable…

    #201600

    razzafazza
    Member

    exactly that goblin phalanx change was one of the key things that gave me hope that my quest is not hopeless :p

    now imagine those gobbo crusaders slightly tuned: just a different more gobbo-like shield and a different more gobbo-like helmet. what a world of difference it d make while (hopefully) not requiring much effort.

    #201601

    Gloweye
    Member

    exactly that goblin phalanx change was one of the key things that gave me hope that my quest is not hopeless :p

    now imagine those gobbo crusaders slightly tuned: just a different more gobbo-like shield and a different more gobbo-like helmet. what a world of difference it d make while (hopefully) not requiring much effort.

    The reasons those changes were possible is because they required no graphic effort whatsoever – it only switches the unit’s weapon for another.

    I’m not sure a more “gobbo”-like shield or helmet would be the same case, even though I don’t know everything either.

    #201603

    CSav10
    Member

    Cosmetically the biggest disappointment was seeing the new angel units appear on the strategic map. All three could do with some improvements.

    #201604

    Flamespike
    Member

    I totally agree on the racial weapons matter, imagine orc phalanxes or elven ones with their racial polearms, would be awesome!

    I also am not too crazy about unit helmets in general, especially the mongolian hat for the mounted archers and the bald berserkers/manticore riders.

    I could do without any hats for the riders and maybe a gladiator helm of some kind as replacement for hairless ones.

    #201615

    I want Elf Exalted with long, luxurious Elven locks!

    And I want Draconian Warbreed that look like Draconians (haven’t seen at the Tigran Warbreed yet… I hardly have tie to play)

    #201620

    esvath
    Member

    I find it weird that racial Bards use the same hair model.

    It works for Humans, Dwarves and maybe Halflings.
    High Elves and Tigrans should have longer, more lustrious hair with different hair color.
    Frostlings should have white hair.
    Draconian, Goblins and Orcs should have other hair style or no hair at all.

    #201624

    Gyor
    Member

    Bards do have a weapon, they’re Harps double as bows.

    #201640

    razzafazza
    Member

    Orc Bard

    Draconian Bard

    I m suprised anyone at all is okay with these. Theres pretty much everything wrong with em. Hair, instrument, clothing. Everything =( like said, draconian/orc bard for example would be great as an easter egg joke hidden somewhere. as actual unit they re disgusting and really ruin the rogue immersion for me.

    Imagine the eldritch horror would be a pink pony shooting rainbows – of course you can find some silly explanations why such a thing could actually be called an “eldritch horror” just like you can try to explain the current AOW3 bard ….. that doesnt help that for half the races the Bard looks like an absolutely horrible
    carricature and for the other half its a generic civilian bartender girl playing a harp. there s plenty of image material on the web for how bards could look much better (light armor, a side weapon etc. etc.) … and is there anyone who wouldnt prefer orcs & goblins playing wardrums instead of harps ?

    #201674

    Zaskow
    Member

    I m suprised anyone at all is okay with these.

    I’m not okay, honestly. But there are no alternatives. Only devs could tell how much work needs making ingame model different.

    #201699

    Sarog
    Member

    On the subject of horse archers, I don’t mind the fur hats nearly as much as I mind the armor (which looks like heavy plate, doesn’t make sense on horse archers, and clashes horribly with the aforementioned fur hats).

    #201700

    Hellspirit
    Member

    I’m in for the long haired elf exalted.Should keep martyrs as they are i think.Berserkers hairless maybe too,just the exalted i mean.That’s an awesome unit!

    #201711

    I note that a units re-use the same model, pretty much.

    So Shamans are basically hunters with staves. Manticore riders are berserkers on flying cats. Horse-archers are monster-hunters with furry hats.

    To solve at least some of the OP’s issues: (which I share)
    Would it be possible to just switch these units with appropriate class unit models? Make Elven Horse Archers have the Unicorn Rider model with a bow? Have an Elven manticore rider be a griffon rider model? The units would still look easily distinguishable from a distance, because of the mounts. And they’d fit in much better with the racial lineup, for obvious reasons.

    And since I doubt the devs would do this, would it be possible to make a mod instead? Or would it be terribly complicated and require manual adjustments to animations and models and whatnot?

    #201735

    Bards aren’t soldiers, they’re….bards. What about Farmers? Why are they ok but Bards are “easter eggs”?

    #201756

    ninninnin
    Member

    bards could stand to be more attractive and less.. balding.
    but crusaders and mounted archers look sweet, whats the problem with them?
    mongolian hats look silly on humans? the original mongolians? the only time i think its “immersion breaking” is on elves who have keen senses and wouldnt want fuzzy hat getting in the way of that.
    then again storm sister covers her ears and eyes up in pointy hat and has total awareness!

    i guess it dependson your interpretation on the how and why of each class. for theocrats i always figured that like with many religions there are many interpretations of the same one. which is why you see so many common elements between race/class. otherwise why the hell wouldnt tigrans for example be worshipping yaka and fire instead of holiness and something vaguely christian in theme.

    but hey i wouldnt be opposed to things looking more different. pretty is good.

    #201760

    … And Brew Brothers. My least favourite unit:
    Halfling Brew Brother
    I don’t like everything about them: facial expression, head size, obesity…

    #201764

    Hatmage
    Member

    I think the obvious instrument/weapon hybrid for bards would have been a flute/blowgun, not the weird bowharp. Orcs and perhaps draconians would work better with drums. The frostlings clearly need a skald.

    One of the flat topped, wide headed helms worn by actual crusaders would work well for human and orcish crusaders. Racial polearms for phalangites make some sense, but human halberd phalangites would then kill every other phalangite and take their inferior polearms for use as javelins.

    Mounted archer hats are wonderful, and no effort should be made to remove them, especially when any discussion of ugly warlord units should just be both sides chanting “warbreed” at eachother until they collapse from exhaustion. Not sure how half ogres in mad max getup even got into the warlord lineup.

    #201826

    razzafazza
    Member

    Bards aren’t soldiers, they’re….bards. What about Farmers? Why are they ok but Bards are “easter eggs”?

    bards have higher hitpoints and equal defense to many infantry, pikemen and archers in this game. bards across all fantasy games usually wear light armor & light weapons (bows, swords) along with their instruments. especially when we re not talking about bards who sit around in a tavern and sing songs (in that case the aow3 bards d be okay) but bards that follow armies into battle …

    …and the “easter egg” part was especially about draconians/orcs (you can extend that to tigrans, goblins as well ) were the unit looks like a joke because it completely mismatches with the race.

    i m not that concerned about farmers because i can easily ignore the existance of halflings in this game. i dont like them one single bit but of course i understand other peoples do and i guess the people who like halflings dont mind farmers because halflings are already a “comical” race with their obesity, big heads, etcs. thats their charm i guess.

    look i dont want AOW3 to turn into some grim-dark-no-fun-allowed-fantasy-setting.
    i appreciate fun stuff like dire penguins or – while we are at rogues – orc succubus.

    but the absolutely unfitting (wrong equipment) or carricature (orcs,goblins,tigrans,draconians) looks of bards is a rogue-killer for me and i m 99% certain if triumph came up with a better , more fitting model 99% of the players would really appreciate it over what we have now….

    of course i might be wrong and then the only hope is waiting for mod tools and replace that horrible unit.

    #201917

    Triscopic
    Member

    FWIW, I’d love to see the phalanx units have their piles swapped out for the racial pike models if it’s not much work (with the exception of the Halflings obviously!)

    Changing the bard models though… That sounds like a lot of work for minimal gain to me. I’d rather that time was spent on modelling brand new units personally. Also consider that no matter how ugly they are, they are immediately recognisable to new players as bards. That said, I think the draconian in particular could be improved by removing the hair entirely. I haven’t noticed hair on other draconian, (although I admit I wasn’t really looking), and lizards are not generally known for their hair.

    #201928

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Yeah, I don’t see this happening, I’m afraid.

    What you might get is minor visual differences, like the Goblin Phalanx or Crusader.

    I’d still like to see Tigran Crusaders get a white and gold version of the Sun Guard shield instead of the normal Crusader shield.

    #202041

    Zaskow
    Member

    Ok, I looked on game model and think most of them could change their weapons very easily.
    Warlord
    Human berserker – 2-handle axes to 2-handle longswords from Human longswordman.
    Orc berserker – 2-handle axes to 2-handle longswords from Orc Greatswords OR axes of Shocktroopers.
    Draco berserker – 2-handle axes to 2-handle obsidian sword from Crushers.
    Frostling Berserker – 1-handle axes (they use them as 1 hand weapon) to axes of raiders.
    Goblin Berserker – axes of goblin marauders.
    Dwarf Berserker – 2 axes from dwarf axeman, lol. Would be very fitting, IMAO.
    Tigran Berserker – metal claws of assassins?
    Some Monster hunters could use their own racial weapon variants instead default broadsword: human – longswords, dwarf – axes etc.
    Mount archers.
    Elves – give them beautiful bows from longbowman.
    Orc – give shortbows of razorbows.
    Phalanxes – get their racial pikes.

    Archdruid
    High Elf Hunter – give them beautiful bows from longbowman.

    Rogue
    Some Scoundrels could get one-handled weapons from racial units as well.

    Sorc
    Apprentices
    Draco – stylish wands of elders.
    Dwarf – wands from Forge priests.
    Elf – wands from Strom sisters.
    Orc – orc priest’s wand.
    Tigran – egyptian stuff from mystic.

    Theo
    Martyrs, Crusaders and Exalted could get one-handled weapons from racial units as well.

    #204713

    razzafazza
    Member

    sorry to bump this but one last try to perhaps get more attention, i d love to hear if people think

    a) “I like that bards look like barmaids with harps. Imho they dont need a more “military”/serious look and fit perfectly in the rogue armies among the shadow stalkers, succubus, assassins and scoundrels – Orcs and Draconian Bards are especially nice ”

    b) ” I like that bards look like barmaids with harps. Imho they dont need a more “military”/serious look and fit perfectly in the rogue armies among the shadow stalkers, succubus, assasins and scroundrels – i would like more differentation between races though, so that not all bards wear the same dress and hairstyle across all races.

    c) ” I d really like bards to be redone to look more diverse across all races and also look more fitting among the rogue armies ”

    d) ” i really dont care about bards because i rarely play rogue and if i do i rarely train bards ”

    Personally i think the argument “its too much effort” is bogus. Nobody (least not me) is asking for a completely new model with new animations and new assets.
    Considering the absolutely huge pools of assets, weapons and base models AOW3 already has (look alone at the leader editor) it should be fairly trivial to piece together a new bard model from that for triumphs artists. If the game were moddable its something an experienced modder could do in a couple of hours – if even. we already have dozens of hairstyles for all races. we already have hundreds of equipment options.

    of course if the majority of players is fine with how bards look and/or the devs want them to stay like this , then its something i have to deal with (by simply not building bards) – just thought you can at least try asking for change :p

    #204714

    NINJEW
    Member

    I’m in favor of option B. Option A is also fine.

    #204728

    NuMetal
    Member

    Definitely option A.
    This is one of the least important things by far imo.

    #204954

    zeelilus
    Member

    B or C

    I can’t stand that EVERY race in the entire world has the same exact hair and hairstyle when it comes to their tavern wenches. Where is the magical rule book stating, oh, you’re a bard? Ya better grow some red hair in this exact style, even if you’re a lizard that doesn’t have ANY hair in the first place.

    The dresses bother me to a lesser extent, only because I find it hard to believe that every single race would have a European style tavern in every city.

    “Here we have a beautiful draconian city, admire the aztec’ish architecture, but ignore that ONE wooden tavern on that street over there, that’s where we keep the bards.”

    Or maybe the dresses just stand out from every other member of their society?

    “THAT’S what you’re wearing to the sacrificial gathering? What’s that, you’re a bard? I suppose that makes sense then.”

    If having any kind of immersion for one of your classes is “too much effort”, then I apologize for my limited knowledge of game development.

    #205860

    Yarovit
    Member

    Personally, I’d like to see draconian bards without hair. Other than that I think they’re alright.
    Bigger issue are, at least for me, bald elves and dwarves. I mean seriously! They look terribly. Especially dwarven class units compared to racials.
    And I’m definitely a supporter of giving as many units as possible racial weaponry.

    #205868

    Yarovit
    Member

    B or C

    I can’t stand that EVERY race in the entire world has the same exact hair and hairstyle when it comes to their tavern wenches. Where is the magical rule book stating, oh, you’re a bard? Ya better grow some red hair in this exact style, even if you’re a lizard that doesn’t have ANY hair in the first place.

    The dresses bother me to a lesser extent, only because I find it hard to believe that every single race would have a European style tavern in every city.

    “Here we have a beautiful draconian city, admire the aztec’ish architecture, but ignore that ONE wooden tavern on that street over there, that’s where we keep the bards.”

    Or maybe the dresses just stand out from every other member of their society?

    “THAT’S what you’re wearing to the sacrificial gathering? What’s that, you’re a bard? I suppose that makes sense then.”

    If having any kind of immersion for one of your classes is “too much effort”, then I apologize for my limited knowledge of game development.

    I have same problem. But Triumph doesn’t seem to turn much attention towards graphics. I guess it’s understendable- they’re small studio. I think there’s less than twenty of them. But there are few areas in game that really could use improvements, rogue and dreadnaught being primary examples. I think they made mistake creating seperate models for class units instead of reusing racial when possible but that’s only my opinion.

    #205929

    razzafazza
    Member

    But Triumph doesn’t seem to turn much attention towards graphics. I guess it’s understendable- they’re small studio. I think there’s less than twenty of them.

    AOW3 is a great looking game for a strategy title. imho it looks a lot better than CIV5 or CIV5 Beyond Earth which are far more mainstream titles than AOW3 is with much higher sales / budget / team. We have wonderful maps both strategic & tactical , we have hundreds of great units and only a couple ugly ones like bards.

    Only Endless Legend is competition in the visuals department (and endless legend has a lot less units), all other similar games from sometimes bigger companies look worse.

    But as with all great games there s always room for improvement, always something they could do even better and class units is that one graphical flaw AOW3 has. some look completely crap (imho only bards though) and some could stand to look more “racial” (i.e. no bald elves, no hair&breasts on draconians, no human-looking cloth on non-human units etc. etc.).

    most of the time i think its stuff that can be fixed without actually creating new content but merely by cleverly using existing content, i.e. stuff even untalented modders like myself could do *IF* we ever get the tools for it.

    but i guess triumph artists are already busy with the next project and thats okay.
    like said, fortunately you can play rogue without bards and thats what i m doing till one day i hopefully can rip apart the game files to create my own bard (or better: downloading the new bard model of a talented modder instead :p) and do my own small racial fixes to certain class units.

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