Item Base Value what does it mean

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Home Forums Modding and Map Making Item Base Value what does it mean

This topic contains 24 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  decoy 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #129649

    decoy
    Member

    When I add an item to the game it has a Base Value on it what does that number represent? is it gold?

    #129659

    Thariorn
    Member

    I’m sure the base value is used in the diplomacy window e.g. your custom item has a base value of 1k gold thus an ai trades you two cities for it
    Or something along those lines.

    I’m pretty sure the base value also inlcuences the ‘Accept reward or sell’-value you get after clearing ruins/etc.

    #129968

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    In addition to what thariorn says (the Base Value is the value that the system thinks the item is worth), it’s mostly used to determine which item you’ll get from a reward.
    If the item is added to bigger sets that are added as reward for something the items you get are based on this reward value (and based on the other settings of the reward set and the strength of the defenders for example (unless you overwrite that).

    Values:
    Common: 50
    Strong: 100
    Epic: 150
    Legendary: 225
    Mythical: 300

    #129970

    decoy
    Member

    OMG Thanks Narvek for explaining some of the game mechanics to me.

    Can you explain to me how the reward value is calculated in this game? Is there any way we can also manipulate it in the editor?

    Is the base item value added unchanged to the reward value then?

    This is base on trial and error and personal theory but. I am guessing the “sell for gold” value is the reward value? And if that is true then Units, Items, Research Points, Mana, Casting Points, spells, and gold are calculated in a formula to reach the reward value?

    A example would be for ancient ruins. a strong item(ItemValue=100) and 25 research points would have the sell for gold value of 150 gold?

    And also how does the game editor’s item rarity effect the game. I am guessing it is the actual rarity of an item but can you give me approximate percentages? Base on the unicorn mount changes to rare I am guessing that is why we don’t see the item as much anymore.

    #129994

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Hi decoy,

    Happy to help!
    So err, let’s get rarity out of the way first: it’s obsolete.
    We used to have a system for that (at one point way early in development we even had unique items that would only pop up a maximum of one time per map (hence names like ‘Jattah’s Rags’, those items used to be unique (only 1 Jattah))), but it turned out to result in too few possible items for reward sets so you’d always end up with .. well, unicorn mounts.

    The ‘sell for gold’ value is indeed based on the base value, I think items sold sell only for 65% of their base value. And then the sale value is capped sometimes at a specific value.

    Knowledge is actually worth 3 gold (mana is worth 2, casting points 5).

    Reward value is calculated based on:
    1) the settings you can see and manipulate in reward sets (we do all kinds of tricks and skewing here to get desired results and one of the settings is to apply a random variance, which is (as good as) always set to true)
    2) the defenders (all units have a base value too)

    Is that a good answer?

    #130025

    decoy
    Member

    Thank you Narvek for giving me such details on the item and reward mechanics. I would give you a hug if you were next to me.

    In my testing it seems that items sell for 75% of the base item value. I do not have an idea yet on how units are valued but that is fine, if want to explain I don’t mind either 🙂

    I just have a little bit more I want to know.

    the settings you can see and manipulate in reward sets

    do you mean the “Custom Adventure Set List”? I tried playing with that property and it did indeed changed a structure’s defenders and reward. I also got a crash with this error box.

    —————————
    Assertion
    —————————
    Assertion failed: “deploymentZone”
    Message: [WORLD_ACTIVATE]Can’t find a deployment zone of the needed type!
    e:\source.aow.steam\aow\aowc\source\ageofwonders\tacticalmap\turnmanager\TacticalPlayer.cpp(137): (click to open)

    —————————
    OK
    —————————

    I tried to put a tomb adventure set on a ancient ruin structure. and it keeps triggering that error when I enter the ruins.

    Also looking through the Custom Adventure Set List property there is a entry for each structure. So can I assume that someone manually created each reward set and did all the items tables for each reward set manually?

    I noticed that ancient ruins which is a strong site can get items that have a epic or legendary tag. why is that?

    you mentioned the sell for gold cap. Why was that implemented?

    Final question is about Rogue’s Treasure Raiding spell. I’ve been pretty harsh on this spell. Well in the beginning it didn’t work as intended. Anyways that is all in the past and it seems to do what it suppose to do now.

    My question is if it improves the items and units it the reward set. The discrption of the skill states “The value of rewards from treasure sites and gold pick-ups is increased by 20%.” Which sadly also makes it hit the sell for gold cap often but JamieVisser said he booked a case for it.

    #130108

    decoy
    Member

    Sorry for asking things not related to the level editor and maps but I just got one more question about game mechanics.

    Since Item Rarity from the editor is removed? Does that mean all items of the same base value have the same chance to spawn now? For example would an Ancient Ruins(strong treasure site) now have equal chance for all strong items to spawn? I’m just curious because with the old system that had rarity from the editor, a very rare strong item might of been better then the common epic item.

    Edit: can we also make our own reward sets?

    #130207

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Thank you Narvek for giving me such details on the item and reward mechanics. I would give you a hug if you were next to me.

    Ooooh 😀

    the settings you can see and manipulate in reward sets

    do you mean the “Custom Adventure Set List”? I tried playing with that property and it did indeed changed a structure’s defenders and reward. I also got a crash with this error box.

    Settings -> Map Resources, then duplicate existing resources (adventure sets, reward sets etc.), those are the ones I meant.
    As for the error it might be because a Tomb has a different setup (2 different tactical maps where the ancient ruins only has 1)? I am not sure.
    In general, I’d only copy the set for the structure you want to tweak and then change the settings, rather than adding sets of different structures to 1 structure (Tactical Map linked for example might not match anymore).

    Also looking through the Custom Adventure Set List property there is a entry for each structure. So can I assume that someone manually created each reward set and did all the items tables for each reward set manually?

    I noticed that ancient ruins which is a strong site can get items that have a epic or legendary tag. why is that?

    you mentioned the sell for gold cap. Why was that implemented?

    Yes we did that manually, a few times over even :p

    Because the defenders might become strong enough to warrant it (gold value of the defenders determines the reward value and then the reward is ‘bought’ with that money), I assume. Or maybe we just didn’t want common items to drop from them and exclude those 100%.

    Because at one point you were be able to sell your reward for 1500 gold. Which was such an insane boost to your economy it got silly.

    My question is if it improves the items and units it the reward set. The discrption of the skill states “The value of rewards from treasure sites and gold pick-ups is increased by 20%.” Which sadly also makes it hit the sell for gold cap often but JamieVisser said he booked a case for it.

    It should scale up the entire reward (probably why you hit the cap more often), and not just the gold portion or left over excess. So yes, you’d get better items and stronger units on average too.

    And yes, all common items *that are linked* are equally likely to drop. But we have specific settings in some cases. Special sets of items. We have linked the whole library in some cases, but sometimes specifically catered sets, and sometimes per item ‘tier’ (tier 1 being 50 and 100 gold items, 2 being 100, 150 and 225 and 3 being 225 and 300 gold items).

    Yes, Settings -> Map Resources, then duplicate existing resources and modify them to your heart’s content (problems can arise though, as you’ve seen! ;)).

    #130224

    decoy
    Member

    Thanks again Narvek this is what I have been looking for.

    I have always wondered how the loot system works and to find out that it was all there in the editor make me embarrassed that I didn’t find it. I hope you don’t mind if I data mine all this and put up a nice table for everyone. I know that a lot of competitive players who would love an chart/table to read this stuff. I’m pretty sure the Dr_K would also love to put it up on the wiki too.

    I will also try and make a tutorial on this stuff when I get some time.

    #130252

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Sounds good 🙂 If you’re going over it
    and encounter things that seem out of place or wrong somehow let us know 🙂
    Quite a lot has been derived from experiments with what would come out, but then adjustments were later made etc.

    #130363

    decoy
    Member

    Hey Narvek did a lot of poking in the map resources editor and I have learned a lot from it. My question this time is related to the defenders of the structures.

    Let’s use the Brigand Hideout for example.

    I place down a default Brigand Hideout. All settings are on the defaults.
    This should then default to the Brigand Hideout default – Adventure Set

    I open up the MapResources editor and I look up this Adventure set
    Brigand Hideout default – Adventure Set

    The Defenders Profile property is probably where I would want to look at for what defenders spawns. It has a sub-property for Unit Set Link that points to Unit Sets and the resource is Brigand Rogues Group Cat

    There is a Default Spawn Strength property which I don’t exactly understand how the editor figures out what the each category of Strength is. I am guessing a programmer set some values here.

    Spawn Value Multiplier is something I also do not understand. Where is the Spawn Value property located?

    Amount of Boss Units I guess this is to make sure to spawn the highest tier unit of a Unit Set. If I put like a 2 here then it would try to put in 2 assassins because that is the highest tier unit in the brigand unit set?

    Spawn Tier 1 Units is self explanatory I think. It lets you just spawn T1 units

    Ideal Amount of units is also self explanatory.

    So now I go to the Units Categories and find the Brigand Rogues Group Cat and it has like 3 properties. The sets property points me to BRIGANDROGUES_GROUP_SET

    So I am now off to the Unit Sets. There are 2 entries it seems for BRIGANDROGUES_GROUP_SET. I guess there are 2 because of the Golden Realms expansion. These group sets have subsets and they point to each individual unit set.
    An example would be ROGUE_GOBLIN_SCOUNDREL_UNIT_SET which points to the actual unit.

    This is the end of my search to try and find the defenders value

    The only other resource I looked at was the Reward Sets. There was a Brigand Hideout default – Reward Set. This resource seems to just have properties to manipulate the reward values like you said.

    So I guess my huge long post is just me asking where I can find the defender’s unit values. Also is there any modification of the defender’s value to the reward’s value before it is modified by the reward set resource.

    Another question is what each Spawn Strength value is?

    Phew that was a lot of words I hope it is easy to read and understand. I would also like to thank whoever did the short comments and explanations on each property in the editor they were very helpful in understand what each thing was or at least gave me some idea.

    #130420

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Hey Narvek

    Hi decoy,

    The Defenders Profile property is probably where I would want to look at for what defenders spawns. It has a sub-property for Unit Set Link that points to Unit Sets and the resource is Brigand Rogues Group Cat

    Depends on the kind of structure. If the structure’s guards are ‘inside’, as in you need to press enter on the structure and can only attack with 1 stack instead of possibly surrounding the stack which is visible on the world map then you need the Inhabitant Profile and leave the Defender Profile empty.

    There is a Default Spawn Strength property which I don’t exactly understand how the editor figures out what the each category of Strength is. I am guessing a programmer set some values here.

    Those values are defined somewhere else (by designers (well, just me actually)) and those values are:
    Very Weak: 125
    Weak: 175
    Medium: 300
    Strong: 550
    Very Strong: 900

    The values for the units as they are ‘bought’ from this value is approximately 90% of their base production value (as listed in the tome of wonders, and it may be minus mana cost in quite a few cases, and can on the whole differ a bit, but it’s a good rule of thumb).
    If you want the exact value for each unit that we use put them in the Inn, check ingame (without Folk Hero!) and divide the value by 2 (and to calculate the the ‘buy value’ don’t forget to then subtract 10%).

    Spawn Value Multiplier is something I also do not understand. Where is the Spawn Value property located?

    Spawn Value Multiplier just multiplies the value from the setting above. So if you fill in ‘medium’ and a multiplier of 1.5 you’ll get a value of 450 from which units are ‘bought’ to determine which and how many will defend (the ‘buying’ is actually not that straightforward, but it’s good to think of it that way, and just experiment). This was added for some rare cases where we wanted different results on average than any of the 5 values could provide.

    Amount of Boss Units I guess this is to make sure to spawn the highest tier unit of a Unit Set. If I put like a 2 here then it would try to put in 2 assassins because that is the highest tier unit in the brigand unit set?

    Correct, nice 🙂
    (And if you have Golden Realms there are also Lesser Shadow Stalkers in the set you it will choose either Assassins or Lesser Shadow Stalkers as both are tier 2.)

    You’re right about Spawn Tier 1 Units and Ideal Amount of units and the way the unit sets work with the expansions too.

    So I guess my huge long post is just me asking where I can find the defender’s unit values.
    Also is there any modification of the defender’s value to the reward’s value before it is modified by the reward set resource.

    1) Answered above and
    2) Yes:
    The value that is the ‘defender buy value’ is comprised of the Default Spawn Strength value multiplied by the Spawn Value Multiplier.
    Then the units are chosen (keeping in mind the Amount of Boss Units, Spawn Tier 1 Units, Ideal Amount of Units settings and the fact that there’s a general 10% discount from the unit values themselves).
    Then the value of the actually spawned units (which should have a value close to but almost certainly not equal to the ‘defender buy value’) is collected and used as the Defender’s Value.
    So it’s close, but not the same.

    Phew that was a lot of words I hope it is easy to read and understand. I would also like to thank whoever did the short comments and explanations on each property in the editor they were very helpful in understand what each thing was or at least gave me some idea.

    I’ll pass it on to the programmers 🙂

    #130598

    decoy
    Member

    I played around with the editor some more today and use the inn like you said to find the values for units. I also played around with the reward sets to see how the function.
    This is what I learned so far.

    The defender buy value isn’t always used up completely. Can you explain why for example the brigand hideout which is uses a very weak defender’s profile sometimes has 2 scoundrels instead of 3?
    Shouldn’t it be able to always afford 3 because it cost 40.5 gold for each scoundrel and very weak defenders have 125 gold defender buy value?

    You touched on the expansion added duplicate entries for a lot of the map resources. Does this mean that if I create resources with the same it will be used together with resource of the same name?

    I did a lot of testing with the reward sets today. It seems for each category of rewards it use the full reward value. so for example if the reward value was 125gold then it would give 125gold and 64 mana if you set the scale to 1 for each multiplier.
    Unit rewards seem to be using the same values as the defender’s buy values. However I got no idea how the value of a unit reward is convert to the sell for gold value.
    Can you also tell me the value for spells because it also has a reward multiplier.

    Is it also possible to somehow set the system to sell for gold on mana, research, and casting points?

    #130620

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Can you explain why for example the brigand hideout which is uses a very weak defender’s profile sometimes has 2 scoundrels instead of 3?<br>
    Shouldn’t it be able to always afford 3 because it cost 40.5 gold for each scoundrel and very weak defenders have 125 gold defender buy value?

    They have concealment?
    Also, dwarves are more expensive, goblins are less expensive, …and there’s a -20% to +20% noise added to the value before ‘buying’ units with it (forgot that earlier! woops! (been a while that I worked with it)).

    You touched on the expansion added duplicate entries for a lot of the map resources. Does this mean that if I create resources with the same it will be used together with resource of the same name?

    I would expect that to work via levelED too, yes (for resource sets (item, unit, adventure and reward sets)).

    I did a lot of testing with the reward sets today. It seems for each category of rewards it use the full reward value. so for example if the reward value was 125gold then it would give 125gold and 64 mana if you set the scale to 1 for each multiplier.

    Yes, rule of thumb here always was to make sure the multipliers add up to 1, but we sometimes changed it based on gameplay experience.

    Unit rewards seem to be using the same values as the defender’s buy values. However I got no idea how the value of a unit reward is convert to the sell for gold value.

    It’s 75% of the unit value, and where I said 65% earlier for items it’s also 75% as far as I can see (I now checked the actual value instead of asking the programmer :p, you have us all searching through old systems that nobody fully remembers :p).

    Can you also tell me the value for spells because it also has a reward multiplier.

    No I cannot unfortunately, values for spells were probably filled in by hand, but no idea how that works, and the one responsible isn’t here (and probably wouldn’t remember) :p
    It’s likely there’s not a fixed value per spell ‘tier’ and it was just valued based on the feel for balance.
    So it’s not as easy as with items and someone would have to go through all spells, check, and make a list. Which takes a lot of time we do not have :/

    Is it also possible to somehow set the system to sell for gold on mana, research, and casting points?

    No, it isn’t.

    Hope my answers still helped you ^^

    #130887

    decoy
    Member

    Thanks again Narvek. With what you have posted over these past few day I think I understand enough of how the Map Resources work. I’ve already used what you taught me and started making a thread in the balance forums here: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/structures-and-rewards-balance-discussion/

    I will also try to work with Dr_K and put up a wiki page for map resources.

    One thing I like to ask is if anyone on the dev team is working on re-balancing the items? You have said that you have removed rarity from the game to increase verity but now some of those item that were marked very rare will show up more often. They seem to be often stronger then the next tier items.

    Edit: Sorry I just thought of something that hasn’t been done on the game. What happens if I put defenders profile and an inhabitants profile on the same structure? Will the reward default to one of the profiles or combine them both?

    #130890

    Thariorn
    Member

    Edit: Sorry I just thought of something that hasn’t been done on the game. What happens if I put defenders profile and an inhabitants profile on the same structure? Will the reward default to one of the profiles or combine them both?

    You mean like putting 6 Units inside an acient ruin + 6 units ON the ancients ruin?

    #130920

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Try it out 🙂
    I don’t know :p

    We’ve done a pass on items where items got shifted up or down in value level (aka some items that were strong are now epic, since they were too strong for ‘strong’.

    I don’t really mind a bit of variance overall to be honest (even in let’s say the ‘epic’ bin), because I like the randomness and sometimes you just find something good and sometimes something less good. I imagine that real treasure raiders have the same experience (well they would do a lot more research but you know what I mean).

    #131082

    decoy
    Member

    I don’t really mind a bit of variance overall to be honest (even in let’s say the ‘epic’ bin), because I like the randomness and sometimes you just find something good and sometimes something less good. I imagine that real treasure raiders have the same experience (well they would do a lot more research but you know what I mean).

    I can understand that its you need the junk to make the diamonds shine. The changes I put up were just suggestion anyways.

    Anyways back to the Map Resources what does the Value Proportion To Add Per Spawn and Max Proportion To Add do? These are Adventure Set Properties under the Unit Spawn Settings.

    My current understanding would be that Value Proportion To Add Per Spawn this is a percentage value that is multiplied to the previous Unit Spawn Value. So this would slowly increase the power of bandits.

    Max Proportion To Add would be the max of something. I really got no idea how this property works. All I know is it uses a integer and . . .

    Also this is a bug report so I’ll put it over in the correct for if you need me to but Forbidden Sanctum Adventure Set is missing the combat property for Mass Curse also the Forbidden Sanctum Wraiths adventure set doesn’t have a boss unit.

    #131204

    decoy
    Member

    So the Seals are obviously very different structures from the rest. I don’t see any Adventure sets for it. Is there any way to modify this structure?

    #131564

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Fixed that Forbidden Sanctum thing, thanks 🙂

    Value Proportion to Add per Spawn: spot on!
    Max Proportion to Add is simply at what multiplier it the value to add will stop (it adds up per iteration), so that it doesn’t get out of control.

    Seals: You cannot edit those at the moment, they indeed are a totally different beast.

    Cheers!

    #131742

    decoy
    Member

    Fixed that Forbidden Sanctum thing, thanks :)

    No problem glad I could help make the game better. Did you also fix this bug I posted on the help forums:

    Also with regards to the map resource editor you said that item rarity is obsolete. So it does nothing right. Is there any other property in there that also does not work anymore? Maybe the range property on spawned units?

    Seals: You cannot edit those at the moment, they indeed are a totally different beast.

    I hook on to key words when I read that line. Are you confirming that a nice programmer in the studio is going to eventually allow us to have custom adventure sets to the rest of the structures? There are still a lot of structures that could have custom adventure sets.

    So after think a little bit this strange idea popped into my head. You have this item resource category in the map resource editor. Do you think that anyone in the studio will create categories like unit resources that will allow us to create our own units and/or structure resource that will allow us to create our own structures?

    Thanks again Narvek for all the posts and answers you have given me.

    #131813

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    I hadn’t yet fixed that Monsterden thing, nice catch, I have now 🙂

    Also with regards to the map resource editor you said that item rarity is obsolete. So it does nothing right. Is there any other property in there that also does not work anymore? Maybe the range property on spawned units?

    If I understand correctly what you mean that range property is only in the behavior settings of spawned units and as far as we’ve been able to test it has always worked (we tested it a lot as it sometimes really seems it isn’t, but could never find proof, and destroyed camps etc etc can be the reason it looks like it’s violated ingame).

    I hook on to key words when I read that line. Are you confirming that a nice programmer in the studio is going to eventually allow us to have custom adventure sets to the rest of the structures? There are still a lot of structures that could have custom adventure sets.

    No, sorry. I think it would be quite difficult to make the structures that don’t have adventure sets suddenly use them.. I don’t think this is likely.

    So after think a little bit this strange idea popped into my head. You have this item resource category in the map resource editor. Do you think that anyone in the studio will create categories like unit resources that will allow us to create our own units and/or structure resource that will allow us to create our own structures?

    Thanks again Narvek for all the posts and answers you have given me.

    Units and Structures are a lot more complex than items, and what we do with the modding potential of the game is not at all up to me and I don’t know what the plan is, sorry.

    You’re very welcome as always, sorry I couldn’t answer the way you had probably hoped on all your points 🙂

    #131983

    decoy
    Member

    You’re very welcome as always, sorry I couldn’t answer the way you had probably hoped on all your points 🙂

    Narvek I knew the answers were going to be like this. I’ve been learning Unreal Engine 4 and playing around with the Unreal Tournament 4 community project. I’ve learned a lot about game development and I took C++ programming back in high school so I understand the struggles. To put development resources for better mod tools for a community is a lot of work. I am very thankful that Triumph Studios have provided an editor with the feature we have now. Also it doesn’t seem too hard for the community dedicated enough to mod the game with hex editors and doing things in that direction.

    If I understand correctly what you mean that range property is only in the behavior settings of spawned units and as far as we’ve been able to test it has always worked (we tested it a lot as it sometimes really seems it isn’t, but could never find proof, and destroyed camps etc etc can be the reason it looks like it’s violated ingame).

    The range property was just an example of the question. I was just curious if there were other properties in the map resource editor that did not work anymore like the item rarity property.

    Thanks for the answers I’ll continue posting anything I can to help improve the game. It really is one of the great games I have played this year.

    #132033

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Ah ok, then after going over the lists I found the Hero Value Multiplier (in the reward set) which does nothing.
    The rest all does what it is supposed to 🙂

    And thanks for the compliment ^^

    #132145

    decoy
    Member

    Ah ok, then after going over the lists I found the Hero Value Multiplier (in the reward set) which does nothing.
    The rest all does what it is supposed to 🙂

    Okay cool thats for looking over everything to make sure it all still works.

    Anyways I found a few more bugs. The seal structures seems to be giving out regular spells in addition to secret spells. I don’t know why it does it when the spell list on the seal reward list doesn’t list them.

    Another bug is that Wild Magic secret spell is missing from the game. The editor still has entries for it in the spell reward list and it is still on the reward list for wizard towers, forbidden sanctums and sunken cities I think. I hope someone just accidentally broke Wild Magic spell and not removed it I like that spell.

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