Killer Instinct

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Killer Instinct

This topic contains 50 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Sedghammer 6 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #172998

    Gorgoh
    Member

    I played a game with Destruction Mastery not too long ago, and one of the things I was very much underwhelmed with was the tier I spell Killer Instinct.

    Killer Instinct (6 mana)

    Target friendly unit does 50% more critical damage and gains Draconian, Dwarf, Halfling, High Elf, Goblin, Human, Orc, Tigran and Frostling Slayer until end of combat.

    Bottom line, if your guys aren’t already excited to be there (i.e. they start round 1 at Content or worse), then the net gain from the spell is +3 damage. That’s right, +3 damage.

    Well, that is as long as the target isn’t a machine, elemental, giant, dragon, animal, etc (in which case the net gain is… well there isn’t any). For a cost of 6 mana and no chance to cast anything else this turn.

    Compare that to a spell like Lion’s Courage, and it’s not too hard to see why I never once (in hindsight) cast Killer Instinct on anybody.

    Lion’s Courage (7 mana)

    Instills a warrior with unparalled bravery and an overpowering aura. Bestows target friendly unit with +5 strength, Overwhelm and Strong Will.

    With Lion’s Courage, you have a guaranteed +5 damage against everybody (+8 damage if unfortunately for them they have a shield in their hand, or they’re a pikeman). Furthermore, you get a double buff – Strong Will thrown in there for free which is no small addition.

    Strong Will

    The unit is immune to Mind Control effects and has 100% Spirit Protection.

    We could make even more comparisons to other enchantments, but what’s the point? It’s already obvious what the verdict is here.

    The critical weakness of Killer Instinct right now is the dependency on the unit’s pre-existing morale state (which is instantly made worse by things like Mass Curse when you’re out treasure hunting).

    But the Killer Instinct spell still has tons of potential; it can still be unique and a lot of fun.

    How’s this instead?

    Killer Instinct (7 mana)

    Target friendly unit gains Draconian, Dwarf, Halfling, High Elf, Goblin, Human, Orc, Tigran, Frostling and Hero Slayer until end of combat. Additionally, the unit gains Killing Momentum, +600 happiness and does 25% more critical damage.

    So the unit runs around with a big smile on its face, rips things apart when it rolls a critical strike, and either attacks something else after killing its last hapless victim, or jumps into Guard Mode to beat off incoming attackers. 😀

    The unit could care less if everybody else is all bummed out about being in combat (fighting in some dank, smelly hole far away from home). He gets a chance to kill stuff now, and suddenly he feels pretty darned good about that opportunity.

    Killing Momentum

    Once per combat round, this unit gains 1 additional action point and can move 1 additional hex upon killing an enemy unit.

    I’ve been playing the 1.5 Open Beta, but one of the things I haven’t done yet is play Goblins. I want to cast that spell on a Butcher. 🙂 (While turning the world to Blight…)

    Let’s hear it for psychopaths!

    #173007

    thabob79
    Member

    I may be wrong but i think killer instinct work with ranged attacks as dell

    #173014

    Gorgoh
    Member

    I may be wrong but i think killer instinct work with ranged attacks as dell

    It does (I just tested it to be sure).

    That’s a good observation; it makes Killing Momentum a lot more iffy when you consider how it could be used (or abused) on some ranged units.

    Probably need to have another “contender” in its place…

    But if the forum can come up with something relatively straightforward for the spell (using existing abilities and stat changes are best), I wouldn’t be surprised to see something added to the coming patch.

    So far I personally like the +happiness angle. Keep in mind +600 is essentially a “double bless” in terms of the happiness gain (minus the other Bless benefits).

    Bless (5 mana)

    Blesses target friendly unit. Blessed units have +2 defense, +2 resistance and +300 happiness until end of combat.

    Without any kind of inherent happiness gain, the attractiveness of the spell plummets in my eyes.

    I also like the opportunity to take a unit with low morale, and turn him into something much more useful for the current fight.

    Kind of like cracking the whip on a minion…

    #173029

    Jaduggar
    Member

    I think a different way that this could be improved, which I personally would enjoy more, would be to buff the effects of ‘X Slayer’ instead. That way, having a slayer against all types would be worth it without having to add any other effects, and units that come with a slayer effect naturally would be more dangerous. As it stands, I hardly ever care whether or not the enemy has slayer against my units, it just doesnt effect their damage enough once everything else has been taken into account.

    How about something along these lines:

    •Units with ‘X Slayer’ get +100 moral for every enemy unit which matches one of its slayer skills present at the start of the battle (representing its eagerness to fight with the enemy). [Edit: In the case of Killer Instinct, it would count the units present when the spell was cast, rather than at the start of the battle.]

    •Units with ‘X Slayer’ get +2 armor against retaliation attacks when engaging an enemy of type-X (this would only work when attacking, similar to Martial Arts but smaller).

    •And (maybe) all units with ‘X Slayer’ recover +6hp whenever a unit of type-X dies during the battle.

    #173077

    +3 damage is not to be sniffed at. Warcry is + 3 damage, for that round only.

    And comparing it to Warlord unit buff skills is not good imho, as the Warlord is supposed to have the best unit buffing stuff (but no innate summons or damage spells).

    If anything, you need to compare it to the other magic specs for a good comparison, e.g.

    stone skin
    bless (as you did)

    #173117

    Hatmage
    Member

    Killer instinct is a powerful buff, because slayer abilities are one of the only ways to increase spell damage. It does require preparation to take advantage of this, however. But coupled with chain lightning or disintegrate (it increases disintegrate chance. If you see a destruction master self-buff like this blinding them, dispeling it/stealing it or compensating with a defensive buff may be your best option) it is a valuable ability. It offers less to line troops, but it still makes a good buff for ranged units, and it hardly breaks the bank.

    #173122

    Althea
    Member

    I think if you can limit enemy movements, like with spells such as twisting roots, mass stasis/gravity spells, or choking fumes and play at ranged combat, killer instinct combined with bless is quite decent.

    I still remember my 2 horned gods defeated 6 juggernauts in siege (i’m the attacker) because of bless and killer instinct combined with twisting roots.

    Although i think rather than increasing critical hit damage, it should increase critical hit chance, for a flat increase (maybe 20% – 30% boost), CP/mana cost can be increased accordingly.

    #173128

    Astraflame
    Member

    That increased crit damage is subtle powerful, it’s my prefered buff with Theocrat and touch of faith. I’ve seen knights destroy Global A phalanx which is supposed to easily counter knights, the massive crits shouldn’t be underestimated.

    #173134

    Althea
    Member

    Indeed it is, i actually use killer instinct not for the damage boost but for the critical.

    I think the spell is fine.

    Although i prefer more critical to happen than a super damaging critical hit.

    #173188

    zealot83
    Member

    I like Killer instinct too.It works fine in my opinion.

    #173739

    Gorgoh
    Member

    You mean there’s people out there that think this spell… works? 😉

    From what you guys have written, I’d say finding utility in the spell is testament to your grit and skill as gamers, but in the big picture I still think Killer Instinct is garbage.

    Here’s my own personal thoughts as to why. (*dons helmet and traces a large semi-circle in the dirt with his +2 Trident*)

    Killer Instinct is a tier I spell. Obviously that means its power shouldn’t be too great, relative to spells in higher tiers. But it also means it should be useful in a tier I timeframe. If the best thing you can do when Killer Instinct shows up in your research book is to “research it and hold onto it, for that moment in the future when you have something to combo with Killer Instinct” – or better yet “don’t research it, just let Killer Instinct languish in your spellbook until you have something you can combo with it” – then it’s not a tier I spell. I’d say it’s a non-spell, just taking up space in your research book – and that’s a bad sign.

    Tier I spells should be something with immediate and obvious utility. You get them out of your research book not because you just want these spells out of the way, but because they provide something useful. You actually want the spell. Tier I spells are supposed to get you going early: they get you into spellcasting mode, make you happy about your specialization picks, and force you to monitor your mana usage while helping clear out the riff-raff and bad guys currently populating your neighborhood.

    If you can’t use it until the racial happiness of your starting race has been sufficiently developed, or you need some tier 3 units like Evangelists to get some mileage out of it, or you need to research a few more spells like Twisting Roots, Choking Fumes and / or Bless to make it finally work, or you need to find somebody with Bard Skills, or… well that’s a bad sign.

    Combos are great. But if Killer Instinct requires a combo to do anything halfway decent, then something is off.

    With the obvious exception of Repair Fortification (which has a unique and entirely different purpose), I would not only argue that Killer Instinct is absolutely the worst tier I combat spell in the game, but that its early-game “value” isn’t even remotely close to any of the other tier I combat spells:

    Air: Suffocate
    Earth: Stoning
    Fire: Fireball
    Water: Vengeful Frost
    Creation: Bless
    Arch Druid: Revive Instinct, Root Spears
    Dreadnought: Flash Bang, Repair Fortification
    Rogue: Quick Dash, Rain of Poison Blades
    Sorcerer: Magic Fist, Star Blades
    Theocrat: Slayer’s Doubt, Smite
    Warlord: Last Stand, Lion’s Courage

    In the early game I would take any of those spells in a heartbeat over Killer Instinct (excepting once again for Repair Fortification).

    I didn’t get all of the way through that big Disintegrate thread which hit the forum not too long ago, but I think any notion of, “We need crappy spells in the game to balance out the really good ones” doesn’t resonate with me. We can certainly have spells of differing levels of power and do interesting things with that approach, but we don’t need trash spells that don’t deliver when they’re supposed to. Each spell should deliver a certain minimum amount of utility at the appropriate time, otherwise it needs to get reworked or thrown out.

    And comparing it to Warlord unit buff skills is not good imho, as the Warlord is supposed to have the best unit buffing stuff (but no innate summons or damage spells).

    If anything, you need to compare it to the other magic specs for a good comparison, e.g.

    stone skin
    bless (as you did)

    I’m not sure how strongly you feel about that and I don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but I would have to disagree with a basic premise suggesting class spells should always be better than specialization spells, or that certain kinds of spells should be the exclusive, pre-eminent domain of certain classes. In my view it’s not only entirely appropriate for specialization spells to be on par with class spells in terms of their overall power rating, it’s a necessity.

    Why? Well if everytime you look in your spellbook “class spells are always better” then you’re not making any decisions – the decision has already been made for you. You can only cast one spell per turn, and preferably there’s never a clear winner. Class spells and specialization spells can have similar power ratings, they should just aim to do different things for different circumstances in order to build a better toolbox.

    Some jobs will require a hammer, some a screwdriver, others a wrench; preferably all of these tools have value in the game and the player just has to pick the right one at the right time in order to achieve maximum gain. Pick a hammer when you should’ve used a crowbar, and you’ll get something less than optimal results.

    At the end of this discussion BBB, I hope to convince you Killer Instinct can be more powerful, while also fitting nicely into your Warlord toolbox (or that of any other class) without adversely affecting “balance” or the existing flavor of classes and specializations. I have another version of Killer Instinct I like at the present time, but I’m interested to see if I’ve convinced anyone of anything yet – or if, “the spell is fine, no change required” is still the prevailing view.

    Killer instinct is a powerful buff, because slayer abilities are one of the only ways to increase spell damage. It does require preparation to take advantage of this, however. But coupled with chain lightning or disintegrate (it increases disintegrate chance…)

    I wasn’t able to duplicate any of this behavior. If I’m missing something let me know. But I tested it in the 1.5 open beta with Fireball (and for the target I was aiming at I had the same damage range of 2-3 physical, 10-15 fire with Killer Instinct and without it) and Disintegrate (had a 25% chance to destroy the target either way). Perhaps Killer Instinct used to work like you describe at some point in the past, but currently it does not.

    Any chance you’re thinking of Skin of Oil?

    #173762

    I’ve found Killer Instinct to be a decent enough spell- But if the goal is to inflict damage the average fireball-like will against most targets inflict more.
    And in general there will be more important spells to cast once that early phase is over.
    It is one of the spells that are marginalized by the 1 spell limit.

    I wasn’t able to duplicate any of this behavior. If I’m missing something let me know. But I tested it in the 1.5 open beta with Fireball (and for the target I was aiming at I had the same damage range of 2-3 physical, 10-15 fire with Killer Instinct and without it) and Disintegrate (had a 25% chance to destroy the target either way). Perhaps Killer Instinct used to work like you describe at some point in the past, but currently it does not.

    Any chance you’re thinking of Skin of Oil?

    In earlier versions if a hero had certain traits applied to him for example slayers, champions or the inflict XY ones, those were applied on damaging spells of that hero. This has been patched out AFAIK.

    #173801

    Hatmage
    Member

    I have had hero slayer pop up in the tooltip for disintegrate in 1.5, though it may no longer do so. I assumed other slaying abilities would do the same. I guess killer instinct is really just an archer buff.

    #174029

    Gorgoh
    Member

    Here’s my current proposal for Killer Instinct, and the thought process I went through to get there.

    Reworking Killer Instinct

    Destruction Adept needs a powerful combat spell, if for no other reason than it only has one. As I’ve already labored to illustrate, the fact that Killer Instinct is a tier I spell also means it should be something that works right out of the gate (not halfway through the game, or at the very end).

    For this reason, I think it’s time to drop all of the Slayer abilities. In the current version of Killer Instinct, it’s kind of cool to cast the spell on a unit and then open up its ability list only to see a huge list of things you can now “slay”. It’s all written in nice blue letters, and it looks impressive. Only it isn’t.

    In a classic case of “looks can be deceiving”, the reality is that half (or more) of the things you’ll fight in the early game will be things like phantasms or wisps on a Mana Node, felhorses on a Great Farm, or undead in an Ancient Ruin.

    With the tier I spells from other specializations and classes (again, excepting for Repair Fortification), you can still get significant bang-for-the-buck out of each and every one of their spells: Fireball, Quick Dash, Bless and all of the others will continue to work no matter who your enemy is. In contrast, the current Killer Instinct only delivers a marginal benefit in about half of your early-game manual combats.

    I say “marginal benefit” because as we’ve already seen, the spell only works when the happiness of your units is something above Content. So there’s two things gimping this spell right from the outset, and one of them has to go.

    The critical hit aspects of Killer Instinct offer the greatest opportunity for something unique and enjoyable when using the spell. It just has to be made into something which works every time – not part of the time. Having a portion of the spell’s abillities be a guaranteed happiness bonus will fix this. It will ensure that every turn there’s a significant chance for rolling a critical hit – the “killer part” of Killer Instinct.

    Now we just need something to go along with this, our new starting point…

    Every once in a while it’s ok to steal something from one area of the game, and put it somewhere else if it adds fun and variety to TC combat. Like a Dreadnought hero who has taken the “Draconian racial ability” Fire Bomb, or the Crazed Chicken item which lets non-Halfling players get in on the fun of Throw Chicken, sometimes it’s ok to “borrow”. So I’m going to take the liberty of “borrowing” from the High Elves, because I think one of their new abilities would be a lot of fun when extended out to other units on a relatively rare, part-time basis.

    Total Awareness was perhaps originally visioned as a way to make the sometimes squishy High Elf ranged armies a little more resilient. Because Support units in general lack high hp, a well-timed flank attack can drop them pretty quickly – and having Total Awareness helps.

    Total Awareness

    The unit cannot be flanked by attacks from behind.

    But interestingly, Total Awareness can also be seen as a form of soft guard that doesn’t give any defensive bonuses. Or taking it one step further, Total Awareness can also make an excellent “in between” option for units wishing to make bold flanking attacks on unsuspecting enemies: essentially a new kind of “ability” behavior that might be loosely thought of as attack, react and defend. (Somewhat similar to Defensive Strike, but allowing for more than one attack while having no defensive bonuses.)

    Empowered by “attack, react and defend” a unit could rampage deep in enemy territory with much greater confidence. The rampaging unit won’t get any defensive bonuses, but it will be significantly more prepared for the inevitable counterattacks because it can’t be flanked.

    Well, that’s just too cool to pass up. Enabled judiciously by requiring the player to cast a powerful spell beforehand, this attack profile could be a lot of fun.

    So in addition to the hit-them-where-it-hurts-because-I’m-a-red-eyed-killer aspect of critical hits, Total Awareness helps flesh out the “instinct part” of Killer Instinct. Yes, this guy will be a jedi master.

    But this is also a Destruction spell. It’s not enough to simply be aware of incoming threats, we must make them pay for their foolishness, in a slaughterhouse-style orgy of dismemberment and death! So with one more addition, the overall result looks like this:

    Killer Instinct

    The unit’s confidence and senses are greatly improved, and it is able to strike swiftly to devastating effect. For the remainder of combat the unit has +600 happiness, +25% critical hit damage, Total Awareness and First Strike.

    Raawwwrrrr !!!

    This version of Killer Instinct is great for melee, and it’s still great for ranged attacks due to the guaranteed critical hit chances (even if the unit entered battle at low morale or content).

    Killer Instinct creates a melee unit that can exploit vulnerabilities like exposed flanks, destroy that unit rapidly when it rolls critical hits, and then turn around and wipe the floor with overly optimistic units that charge in to counterattack.

    Alternatively it can still be used by ranged units, in order to take aggressive, otherwise out-of-position flank shots with greater confidence, survivability and damage potential.

    And finally, it’s great for sprinting, backstabbing Rogues.

    Oh yes. It’s great for backstabbing Rogues.

    #174031

    Gorgoh
    Member

    I’m not sure what the deadlines for localization look like right now, but the quick-and-dirty description could read like this in the short term (with a longer description later):

    Killer Instinct

    The unit gains +600 happiness, +25% critical hit damage, Total Awareness and First Strike.

    #174043

    Gorgoh
    Member

    Some units I’d like to enchant with this new version of Killer Instinct:

    1) My level 1 treasure hunting hero, facing off against some Archon Revenants, Wraiths and Carrion Birds, with Mass Curse in play. Because now I can. And it will actually do something.

    2) An elite Draconian Flyer with Killing Momentum and Overwhelm. Now I would feel less of a need to use that one extra action point to go into Guard mode, even though there’s a unit right there that I could strike.

    Now I have a chance of getting a critical hit and taking him out in glorious fashion – but if that guy ends up surviving I still have Killer Instinct and Total Awareness.

    Less hand-wringing about Guard; more Killing Momentum.

    3) A human Knight with Devastating Charge, crashing into a unit’s rear. He’s also Armored and has Shield. Yeah, he’ll be just fine.

    4) Butchers. Sure, having First Strike is redundant. But you can’t outflank me bro. And I have Lifestealing and Polearm. Feed me your cavalry.

    5) Shock Troopers. I can crash into a bunch of otherwise hopeful Pikemen with Guard Breaker. And then I can retaliate all day long with Tireless. Let the slaughter begin.

    6) Anything with Sprint or Phase. Irregulars, Unicorns, you name it. Because I can get aggressive and hurt things, regardless of my final positioning.

    7) Backstabbing Rogues, with a max chance for a crit. Did you feel that? Yeah, I thought so. (Just don’t steal my enchantment…)

    #174044

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Killer Instinct

    The unit gains +600 happiness, +25% critical hit damage, Total Awareness and First Strike.

    For what it’s worth, that is way too strong for a T1 researched spell. Of course the tier could increase, but I don’t think that is the desire.

    I could see the spell potentially changing to something like: +50% Crit damage, +3 Primary-Channel Strength, and +200 Morale(definitely not +600). Losing the Slaying bonuses, of course.

    #174047

    Gorgoh
    Member

    For what it’s worth, that is way too strong for a T1 researched spell.

    I sold it pretty hard, no doubt about that. Maybe too hard.

    The spell is always going to look pretty nice on an elite Draconian Flyer, or a Shock Trooper. But that’s because they’re tier 3 units with awesome abilities already, not necessarily because the spell is too OP for being tier 1.

    Compare it with putting Lion’s Courage on a Shock Trooper against a Theocrat. Now he’s immune to Spirit damage, and none of the opponent’s Evangelists can Convert him anymore (even though lack of Resistance is supposed to be his weakness). And on top of that he gets +5 damage (as well as Overwhelm, but he had that already). Either way he still has Tireless and Guard Breaker with either spell.

    Maybe I’ve made the spell sound great. But the obvious counter (as with so many other things in the game) is simple. Don’t engage the guy in hand-to-hand combat. Just engage him with ranged fire until he’s dead.

    Or Dispel the enchantment.

    Or Entangle him and beat him up.

    Or blow him up with a spell.

    Or hit him with Inflict Stun ranged attacks, and then beat him up.

    Or steal the enchantment.

    Or make it so that he can’t move very far using a spell like Slayer’s Doubt – which incidentally will also cancel the overly high +600 happiness he got, by giving him -800. Goodbye crits.

    Last Stand looks pretty awesome as well, if a bunch of cavalry is lined up on the opposite side of the field and one-by-one you turn all of your swordsmen into pikemen, with +2 defense and double the normal bonus for Guard.

    Quick Dash? Get 50% of your mp back (plus 10 hp), and kill 2 units in the same turn…

    Killer Instinct should be a good spell – it’s the only combat spell that Destruction Adept has.

    If people think it’s OP, then maybe that’s a good start. 😉

    #174049

    thabob79
    Member

    I’ve always fond X slayer bland, boring and not efficient enough. Maybe more crit chances or morale bonus (100 maybe) when killing “targets” might be more fun (keeping the bonus damages).

    #174051

    llfoso
    Member

    I’ve never thought it was bad. I used it even before the bonus crit damage.

    I also really like the slayer abilities instead of just +3 damage. It’s very much the opposite of cleanse the unnatural (or whatever it’s called). It’s very “turn your units into murderers.”

    I think it’s fine. Remember, this is the only low tier unit damage buff you can get from a specializations and it stacks with those others. You can put this and lion’s courage on the same unit.

    Anyway, I suppose a morale boost would be fine. I wouldn’t complain 🙂 .

    #174052

    Gorgoh
    Member

    As people debate the pros and cons of all these things, just a few reminders about critical hits.

    If your happiness is less than 200, you will never get a critical hit.

    Cursing a unit, or having Mass Curse in effect, gives a unit -300 happiness. So getting from a Mass Curse environment to a value above 200 (in order to get the initial 7% chance of a crit) is sometimes no small feat.

    That’s why (initially anyways) I picked +600 as a number.

    You only get the maximum 1-in-4, 25% chance of a critical hit if your happiness is 600 or higher. And even then the chance is only 1-in-4 – meaning that the chance to not get one is 75%. More often than not (in a 3-to-1 ratio), you won’t roll a crit right after casting the spell – even at max happiness (600 and over).

    That’s why I think the +happiness has to be high, and that’s why the spell needs to have other abilities as well – because you can’t count on crits alone making Killer Instinct shine.

    This is especially true when you factor in all of the things in the game that cause morale to drop, like hated terrain, a rough stretch of empire happiness modifiers, spells like Dread Omen (-500 happiness), etc.

    Here’s the full morale / crit chart (source: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Units):

    600+ happiness: 25% crit chance
    400 – 599 happiness: 15% crit chance
    200 – 399 happiness: 7% crit chance
    -199 to 199 happiness: 0% crit chance
    -399 to -200 happiness: 15% fumble chance
    -599 to -400 happiness: 30% fumble chance
    -600 happiness and lower: 40% fumble chance

    It’s also worth noting that the second best crit range generates a 1-in-6 chance for a crit, while a 7% rate yields only 1 crit out of every 14 attacks.

    So for positive values of happiness that aren’t maxed at 600, crits would actually be quite rare for any one individual unit. If 200 to 500 is as high as you can raise your happiness after getting +600, then you just have to be happy that at least you’ve reached positive territory because you must’ve been below zero previously.

    And as the chart shows, being in the red is worse than being in the green when it comes to the percentages.

    #174055

    Gorgoh
    Member

    One more thing:

    For anyone who would like to see the spell improved or changed, I encourage you to keep all of your suggestions and proposals confined to pre-existing abilities and stats.

    That’s the most realistic way of having the change hit at the same time as the 1.5 patch.

    So if you think a better mix would be Charge, Overwhelm, +300 happiness and +3 strength that’s something that could potentially happen.

    Having the change be a brand new series of mechanics on the other hand, is very unlikely to happen (at least not anytime soon).

    #174058

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think, the spell is alright, because it’s pretty versatile. All “regular” 3 action-point ranged units profit massively, also units with Charge or First Strike become that tad better. Since the spell lasts the whole combat, it’s a good one to begin with for low casting cost (which also means, that it’s use decreases from then on). Which means, it’s a good basic preparation spell.
    It also works well on T1s because they gain the most, percentage-wise.

    Instead of changing the spell, a Mass version would be interesting.

    #174059

    Gorgoh
    Member

    Here’s a trend I’ve noticed…

    Most “supporters” are kind of damning Killer Instinct with faint praise. It usually sounds like, “Meh, I’ve used it. It’s ok.”

    Where’s the guy that says, “Killer Instinct is awesome! I love that spell!”

    Haven’t heard from him yet.

    That’s because he doesn’t exist. 😉

    #174062

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    If it was awesome for 6 CP, it was OP. 😉

    #174082

    Eomolch
    Member

    I’ve always fond X slayer bland, boring and not efficient enough. Maybe more crit chances or morale bonus (100 maybe) when killing “targets” might be more fun (keeping the bonus damages).

    This is basically the only buff to it that could work in the meaning that it makes thematically sense and doesn’t make it OP. +100 morale for each kill seems fine, but in return the +crit power % imho would have to be lowered to maybe 25% because let’s face it 50% extra crit damage is huge especially when it comes with a morale buff and I am personally not a great fan of anything that can make you one-hit things especially when it’s tied to some luck (or bad luck, when used against me).

    Or , well .. we could just leave it the way it is 😉

    #174090

    Althea
    Member

    Generally, it maybe underpowered if you compare it with other T1 spell.

    I mean killer instinct is for specific tactics in battle, whilst the majority of other T1 spells generally work in any kind of tactics.

    If you prefer ranged combat, and use units that generally out range opponent enemy unit (i.e: juggernaut, horned god, shrine of smiting, sorcerer stun game), it does its job by helping your critical gameplay, the damage bonus though, in my opinion is not good enough because it apply only to races, but the value of the boost, +3 damage is good enough for T1 spell.

    Imo the damage boost is only for early to mid game, whilst the crit boost theoretically works for all stages of the game, but in practice works only for late game when you are able to use units that out range most units in the game (i.e: juggernaut, horned god, shrine of smiting, sorcerer stun game). A combo that may come into mind is touch of faith and/or bless, the former can’t be dispelled.

    My conclusion is the spell is fine, though in a weird way. I mean T1 spell should perform the best in early game, but this spell is situational in early game due to the damage is limited only to units related to races, the crit can’t be utilized to its full potential by most classes/races except if you’re theocrat or have theocrat hero with touch of faith, you can take creation adept though for bless.

    However in late game, it works quite nice if you play extreme ranged combat, can also works for melee but crit means that it depend on chance, in melee combat if your chance does not come, you generally have no other time to try another chance (because your opponent is right in front of you either they kill you first or you kill them first), in ranged combat, if you miss your chance, usually there is plenty of room to try for another chance, assuming you back away from your opponent and play safe at ranged combat.

    Therefore my other conclusion with this spell is the crit bonus is not for melee oriented army. My experience with this spell when using warlord or rogue is not as smooth as when i use arch druid or sorcerer or theocrat or dreadnought.

    Overall, i think the spell is fine. I admit i have bad moments with it, but i also have good moments with it, the good one is more than the bad one for me.

    That’s my experience with this spell. Hope it’s good enough as food for thought.

    #174470

    Fenraellis
    Member

    One more thing:

    For anyone who would like to see the spell improved or changed, I encourage you to keep all of your suggestions and proposals confined to pre-existing abilities and stats.

    That’s the most realistic way of having the change hit at the same time as the 1.5 patch.

    Actually… while discussion is good for future changes, due to text lockdowns because the release is so soon, only really (+icon) changes to abilities are really under consideration for things like spells at this stage for the Expansion and 1.5 Patch release versions.

    Just preempting potential complaints as to why some change or another that would require a description change, might not have occurred by release for the various spells and empire upgrades or abilities.

    #174472

    with a basic premise suggesting class spells should always be better than specialization spells

    The basic premise is that the Warlord’s entire schtick is having the best troops, so comparing his buffs (which are there to compensate for having no offensive magic) to a buff that anyone can get is a bit unfair.

    Also, some spells are meant to be combined with others :). That’s where your skill comes in. As a Goblin Warlord (i.e. cheap disposable troops but easily killed) I use this *alot* when running ShadowBorn Master + Destruction adept.

    Fwiw, I think destruction is overall somewhat less versatile than the other specs, but when it works, it works well :).

    #174492

    quo
    Member

    I really like putting Killer Instinct on a unit that I plan to keep in guard mode. For a 6 mana spell its not bad for most classes. Warlords can buff unit attacks much better than most classes.

    The best comparison spell IMO is Bless. +2 Resist +2 defense +300 happy. Also not amazing but not terrible either.

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