Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion

This topic contains 30 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Blutwurstritter 7 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #117722

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi guys,

    I think there is some need to discuss Leaders and Heroes balance. I know Ravenholme is gonna post some suggestions regarding new heroes and stuff, so I don’t wanna touch this. Instead what looks to me to be an issue is the way some classes make substantially better heroes then others.

    I’ll say here that I have a specific perspective – I think heroes are almost always much better as army leaders then as units in themselves. You can develop a hero in either way but usually making them into better army leaders is a lot more worthwhile. This is so for two main reasons: 1. Heroes are long term investments that become more and more important as they accrue experience, hence the loss of a hero can be a very big blow. Because of that, they are units that are better off being protected then put in harms way. 2. Heroes are quite vulnerable really, and it takes a huge investment to make them very strong. I have seen this done, successfully, a few times. But it is quite difficult, requires a lot of luck and experience, and is very dependent on the class of the hero.

    I think therefore there needs to be some discussion on how to balance the existing classes as both army leaders and tactical units.

    I invite all of you to post your ideas, suggestions, criticisms and so forth!

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #117730

    Gloweye
    Member

    Inflict stun – High level sorcerer heroes are never useless. if the hero also happens to be a high elf, the inflict stun on ranged attacks combined with additional ranged damage on physical and shock channels is devastating. This is while paying only the 5 points for the inflict stun itself – hero can still specialize in a lot of other things. Because of this, im always happy to see a sorcerer hero join.

    Having innate access to floating doesn’t hurt either.

    Tireless – it takes a while and a bit of effort to get a Warlord hero to dangerous, but Tireless combines with Martial Arts is incredible strong. If your leader happens to be sorcerer, you’re set. Because sphere of protection early game and summon mount late game – a few tries will net you a Vampire Spider Mount, giving Life Steal along with some other usefull traits, like webbing touch, cave crawling, wall climbing and 40% blight resistance to top it off. Warlord also gets other very usefull combat buffs like overwhelm, and it isn’t that hard to find a weapon with first strike – or forge one.

    Just two ideas of very strong abilities available to these classes that come to mind.

    #117766

    Althea
    Member

    I agree, some hero surprisingly can be built as a fighter, especially Warlord and Rogue.

    About warlord, practically what Gloweye said. Just add few spells you really need. And warlord can play dual roles, but more of a fighter, but don’t expect him to be as strong as a dragon or T4 with good AoE without getting specific items (like those that give you breath attack, or canon fire, etc).

    Though in case of rogue i think what he need is more of movement speed to utilize his back stab without using his spells or abilities to increase movement point.

    Heroes like archdruid and sorcerer better concentrate in getting support abilities and spells and increasing his CP, true to their class. I think this is not a bad thing.

    #117768

    ExNihil
    Member

    Let’s look at the Theocrat (all data derived from the stuff posted by Mezmorki et al. here: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/tables-of-wonder/).

    Active Abilities: Healing (Level 1), Cure Disease (Level 1), Touch of Faith (Level 3), Turn Undead (Level 3), Convert (Level 5), Break Control (Level 5), Absorb Pain (Level 7), Control Undead (Level 7)

    Leadership Abilities: Aura of Resistance (Level 1), Healing Aura (Level 1), Chaplain (Level 3), Sacred Arms (Level 3), Holy Champions (Level 7), Vow of Poverty (Level 9), Divine Justicars (Level 10)

    Combat Trait: Undead Slayer (Level 1), Strong Will (level 3), Monster Slayer (level 5)

    Spells: Divine Protection, Smite, Instant Wrath, Slayer’s Doubt, Mighty Meek, Puryfing Burst, Blessing of Health, Rebirth, Power of the Word, Holy War

    Theocrat are, IMO, the best army leaders when they are on a high-level due to Divine Justicars – although Dreads give them a run for their money in my book. They are also very good support units, and that is their role on the battle field. They are lacking though in combat capabilities, and if one wants to develop a Theocrat Leader/Hero in that direction he/she will be very disappointed by the options here.

    First off, what is obvious for all classes is that above level 11 no new combat or leadership skills appear at all, and after level 13 nothing new appears. The level cap is 20 so there are definitely some empty slots that can be filled with new capabilities.

    I think on level 15 all classes should get a unique and powerful combat upgrade that is quite expansive, and on level 20 a “Paragon” ability that really puts them in a unique tear as combat units.

    Suggestions

    1. I suggest a skill called Seraph Sword or Archon Sword (thanks Ravenholme!) to appear on level 6, giving the Theocrat Leader/Hero +2 Spirit Melee Damage at the cost of 4 points.

    2. I think there is place for Resurgence on level 9 or 10 and with a cost of 7, although it will require some working out with Divine Justicars – if the Theocrat army leader dies he will resurge, if the fight is won, but the units he leads won’t resurge.

    3. I suggest a skill called Holy Knight to appear on level 15 and a cost of 12 points, giving the unit +2 def, +1res, 20% Blight Resistance, 20% Fire Resistance and Tireless for a cost of 10 points.

    4. On level 20 I suggest a ‘paragon’ skill called God’s Hammer, Divine Wrath or something along these lines and with a cost of 12 points. Giving both ranged and melee attacks +2 physical, +2 fire, +2 shock and +2 spirit damage and a chance of petrifying the target like Doom Gaze does.

    Level 1: –
    Level 2: –
    Level 3: Inflict Spirit Breaking (cost 4)
    Level 4: –
    Level 5: Seraph (or Archon) Sword (cost 4)
    Level 6: –
    Level 7: –
    Level 8: Inflict Daze (cost 5)
    Level 9: Resurgence (cost 7)
    Level 10: –
    Level 11: –
    Level 12: Summon Slayer (cost 2)
    Level 13: –
    Level 14: –
    Level 15: Holy Knight (cost 12)
    Level 16: –
    Level 17: –
    Level 18: –
    Level 19: –
    Level 20: God’s Hammer (cost 15)

    I suggested some new skills as I think there should be some Hero specific traits and skills that appear in combat. I would like to hear some suggestions from you guys. I’m attaching to this post the most updated list from Mezmorki’s thread that was just updated by Ayenara.

    #117771

    Althea
    Member

    But if theocrat actually use spells more in battle, then the combat boost is not needed right?

    I think a defensive boost is better if it’s a combat boost. Or more army support passive ability. Like super version of the existing abilities that can be picked at lv 15 as ultimate ability. Maybe can be tied to race as well. So human theocrat can have different ability than orc theocrat. I.e the sacred arm is upgraded to something at level 15, giving +5 spirit damage to all the leader army. If tied with the race, maybe something of a modification. Like sacred sun for draconian, it’s +2 spirit damage and +3 spirit damage or other ability like that.

    #117799

    Gloweye
    Member

    I dont think such a High cost ability at lvl 20 is a good idea – many heroes will have all their points spent by then. However, the ideas you mention I like, they give heroes some significant impact in the late game, to serve as a counterweight to the T4 only-enviroment that it is currently.

    Needless to say, other classes would need a similar boost in power level. Theocrat is prime party booster right now, and this wont take that away.

    I would also like all classes to get an elemental attacks at some point.

    aside from all that, I would also appreciate if the races got some traits as well, so that a human sorcerer differs from a goblin one.

    #117802

    ExNihil
    Member

    But if theocrat actually use spells more in battle, then the combat boost is not needed right?

    No. I think there are 5 ways a hero can be used in battle:

    1. Army Leader
    2. Spell Caster
    3. Support Unit
    4. Melee Cavalry Unit
    5. Ranged Cavalry Unit

    Of course none of them excludes the other, and a hero can only be the army leader if it is either the actual leader or the highest level hero in a stack in without the leader. That being said, in order to be very good in any of these a player must specialize the hero unit as it levels up and here there are major differences between the classes. The Theocrat can be a relatively good spell caster, as it has good spells that open up. It can be an excellent support unit, and it can be an exceptional army leader. Yet as a combat unit – Melee or Ranged it is very lacking in comparison to some other classes. My post is geared toward balancing this aspect out.

    What I mean is that every class should have some possibilities for developing heroes along the above mentioned lines. Of course some classes will remain inherently better in certain things then others, but IMO there is a very big disparity ATM between classes and that is a problem. I am not saying one should specialize Theocrats for combat, but I do think this should be a valid option that the player can count on depending on his play-style and strategy.

    I’d be happy to hear suggestions from you guys ;). I attached the file and made that level list so you guys can use ’em in posting stuff.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #117805

    ExNihil
    Member

    I dont think such a High cost ability at lvl 20 is a good idea – many heroes will have all their points spent by then.

    The idea is to plan ahead. For instance, when I play Theocrat and/or level a Theocrat hero I alwasy save my points in advance for Divine Justicars. Of course this is based on experience. I think an ultimate skill should appear on the ultimate level – although I get your point.

    #117818

    Ravenholme
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    I dont think such a High cost ability at lvl 20 is a good idea – many heroes will have all their points spent by then.

    The idea is to plan ahead. For instance, when I play Theocrat and/or level a Theocrat hero I alwasy save my points in advance for Divine Justicars. Of course this is based on experience. I think an ultimate skill should appear on the ultimate level – although I get your point.

    Which got me thinking, a rebalance of the current hero classes to have more possible abilities might also be a good excuse to rebalance the leveling system to go to a higher point, say level 30. It would never really be an issue in short games, but it would have relevance for the much longer games played on larger maps (Ones lasting over 100 turns)

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #117819

    Gloweye
    Member

    Yeah, but not everyone read statistics first, and it might not be a nice suprise to see an ability that strong for the first time, and realize that you’re not gonna get it because you just spend 8 points on ranged damage last level.

    I for example, dont always know the exact levels, though I might say i’ve had only just a few theocrats.

    #117826

    Bob5
    Member

    I really don’t think it’s necessary to make heroes even stronger. They’re already really strong if you level them properly and give them some good items. Especially kiting works really well with them, they’re probably the best kiters in the game with their speed and massive stackable inflict abilities. Dread Heroes on Manticore mounts are perhaps the best example. Get them Fire Bomb, Inflict Immolation, and several ranged bonuses (to like +5 or even higher) and they kite like no tomorrow with Fire Bombs that Immolate and Cripple while inflicting ridiculously powerful AoE without ranged penalties (and unlike call lightning Fire Bomb can be fired from red). It’s rare to get the Manticore, but when you do get it your dread heroes become ridiculously powerful because Crippling wounds just makes pretty much nothing able to keep up with you in tactical.

    If anything should be changed, I think Martial Arts should be made more expensive on Warlords. 2 points is way too little for such an insanely powerful skill, it should be at least 4 or 5 points. Also I think ranged damage boosts shouldn’t be applied to all damage channels simultaneously, only to the main damage channel of that particular attack (it’s one of the reasons the abovementioned tactic of Fire Bomb kiting works so ridiculously well, it’s because it makes Fire Bomb hit ridiculously hard).

    #117835

    Garresh
    Member

    I don’t much like this suggestion just because heroes are already pretty strong and it could move the focus too much towards RPG elements and not enough towards strategy. Right now it strikes a nice balance. Some classes are well suited to creeping and leveling, some are suited to developing and constructing, and some sit square in the middle. I don’t necessarily oppose some streamlining or adjustments, but this idea of “ultimates” is a little too like Dota. That said, I think that this if this were implemented it should be only for leader heroes, and not regular heroes, with a focus more towards warlord. As is heroes can already be pretty stupid, like the strat to power level a sorc and start dropping chaos rifts. By the end of midgame.

    #117847

    ExNihil
    Member

    I don’t much like this suggestion just because heroes are already pretty strong and it could move the focus too much towards RPG elements and not enough towards strategy. Right now it strikes a nice balance. Some classes are well suited to creeping and leveling, some are suited to developing and constructing, and some sit square in the middle. I don’t necessarily oppose some streamlining or adjustments, but this idea of “ultimates” is a little too like Dota. That said, I think that this if this were implemented it should be only for leader heroes, and not regular heroes, with a focus more towards warlord. As is heroes can already be pretty stupid, like the strat to power level a sorc and start dropping chaos rifts. By the end of midgame.

    Well a few things. I never played Dota and have no clue about it :). Also, the number of hereos is scale-able, and say you play with 5-6 heroes, and you receive three theocrats you want 1 or 2 to be your support and army leaders, but you might decide to groom the third to be a holy knight sort of fighter. I think this is a valid strategy, and yes there are RPG elements to the game – I like it, this is a fantasy 4x, why not when you can combine both strategy and RPG? I think we could see more of hero based strategies developing, and thats diversity.

    I really don’t think it’s necessary to make heroes even stronger. They’re already really strong if you level them properly and give them some good items. Especially kiting works really well with them, they’re probably the best kiters in the game with their speed and massive stackable inflict abilities. Dread Heroes on Manticore mounts are perhaps the best example. Get them Fire Bomb, Inflict Immolation, and several ranged bonuses (to like +5 or even higher) and they kite like no tomorrow with Fire Bombs that Immolate and Cripple while inflicting ridiculously powerful AoE without ranged penalties (and unlike call lightning Fire Bomb can be fired from red). It’s rare to get the Manticore, but when you do get it your dread heroes become ridiculously powerful because Crippling wounds just makes pretty much nothing able to keep up with you in tactical.

    Actually your paragraph is an excellent example of this: The Dreadnought is a class that can be amazing as both an army leader and a combat units, and it can also be great support for machines. It is only lacking as a spell caster. I think thats OK, but all classes should be as good as Dread overall, and that is really not the case.

    Sorcerers for instance are great spell casters, OK army leaders, rather weak combatants and just horrid support units (Mend Magical Creature is a joke). I would rather see Sorcerer as great spell casters, OK army leaders and either Ok combatants or Ok supports to say the least.

    I also think that some stuff needs changing. Martial Arts is certainly too cheap. I don’t see why Heroes shouldn’t be allowed to specialize in various ways. It should just be done in a way that doesn’t allow them to be great in everything at the same time – you either have a top warrior or a top support unit, you need to specialize and build it smartly, and also your strategy.

    Finally, if you level your hero to level 15 or 20, you are not in the early game anymore – you are in late game and the units on the battle field are powerful. I don’t see why Heroes shouldn’t be very powerful at these stages combat wise.

    #117914

    Althea
    Member

    @exnihil
    While i do agree with Garresh, i agree with you too, but i think rather different than you.

    Your suggestion is boosting the area where certain hero class is weak, and left area where they are already strong. What i suggested above is the opposite, i like boosting the area where they are already strong and left the area where they are weak.

    I think to improve current state of heroes in this game, one must first do a consensus, which direction we want to take? boosting the weaker part to balance the strong part, or neglecting the weaker part and boost the strong part to make it even stronger. I like the latter, and you like the former.

    #117919

    Gloweye
    Member

    I prefer to boost the strengths. This of course ties in with the additional hero classes idea from Ravenholme. That would enable just giving one “side” of a class the leadership skills, while allowing the other to go another route.

    Also, I always like it when you build a hero according to whatever hero is joining. so that you’re nog gonna build a ranged warlord, just because he can become so awesome in melee, especially with the nice Tireless.

    #117948

    Althea
    Member

    Yeah, i prefer to boost strength too. Imho it will improve hero’s class diversity.

    I feel that by balancing the weaker part of certain class to match the stronger part will make that class more similar with other class, This is unproven though, so i maybe wrong.

    #117995

    Dr_K
    Member

    Going back a bit.

    2. I think there is place for Resurgence on level 9 or 10 and with a cost of 7, although it will require some working out with Divine Justicars – if the Theocrat army leader dies he will resurge, if the fight is won, but the units he leads won’t resurge.

    I think this will not get used at all. Why not wait one or two more levels and get Divine Justicars? It acts as resurgence for everyone* at the cost of one more level and likely will need to wait for that level anyway to get the 7 points.

    *But if the hero falls, then only he and those that fell before him get it. It does not persist once he’s dead.

    One fix might be moving Divine Justicars farther up in level like 15-20 range, but have it give resurgence to all units in the stack, permanently in combat.

    #117997

    ExNihil
    Member

    Your suggestion is boosting the area where certain hero class is weak, and left area where they are already strong. What i suggested above is the opposite, i like boosting the area where they are already strong and left the area where they are weak.

    Well, I do not propose to make the Theocrat as good in combat overall as the Warlord, for instance. I am proposing to balance the classes in such a way that makes sure that everyone can be a decent Army Leader and a decent combat unit of some sort. What is clear is that some classes are IMBA in this way whereby others are actually quite good in every category. The best example is the Dreadnought, which can be a very powerful fighting unit, a good support and an excellent army leader.

    I would not want the Theocrat to be an even more powerful Army Leader, nor would I want the Dread to be one, I would though want to see the Theocrat having the possibility of evolving down a combat branch and not being automatically funneled towards either being a support unit and/or army leader. The idea is to specialize heroes and to be able to develop strategies around them.

    Saying all of this, I would like to invite all of you to actually make some actual suggestions that we can discuss.

    #118003

    ExNihil
    Member

    think this will not get used at all. Why not wait one or two more levels and get Divine Justicars? It acts as resurgence for everyone* at the cost of one more level and likely will need to wait for that level anyway to get the 7 points.

    *But if the hero falls, then only he and those that fell before him get it. It does not persist once he’s dead.

    One fix might be moving Divine Justicars farther up in level like 15-20 range, but have it give resurgence to all units in the stack, permanently in combat.

    Well, I disagree. This will be a great trait to take – if your leader or hero dies in battle and your forces win it will resurge. Divine Justicars works under the condition that you win the battle and the army leader survives. If your leader dies though and your forces win he doesn’t resurge. I therefore think it will be picked up quite a bit indeed ;).

    #118005

    Morty
    Member

    Resurgence as a hero ability kind of conflicts with the option to give it to all heroes, doesn’t it?

    #118006

    Dr_K
    Member

    Well, I disagree. This will be a great trait to take – if your leader or hero dies in battle and your forces win it will resurge. Divine Justicars works under the condition that you win the battle and the army leader survives. If your leader dies though and your forces win he doesn’t resurge.

    I literally tested it before I posted the last comment to make sure I was right. So unless something is bugged with the game I tested it in, it does not work how you think it does.

    What happens is that the leader gets resurgence regardless of anything else that happens, and as long as he is alive any units in the stack that die before him are going to be resurged. After he dies, the rest of the units in the stack lose divine justicars trait and will die permanently. As long as you win, regardless of whether the hero dies or not, he will be alive after combat is over.

    #118007

    ExNihil
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ExNihil wrote:</div>
    Well, I disagree. This will be a great trait to take – if your leader or hero dies in battle and your forces win it will resurge. Divine Justicars works under the condition that you win the battle and the army leader survives. If your leader dies though and your forces win he doesn’t resurge.

    I literally tested it before I posted the last comment to make sure I was right. So unless something is bugged with the game I tested it in, it does not work how you think it does.

    What happens is that the leader gets resurgence regardless of anything else that happens, and as long as he is alive any units in the stack that die before him are going to be resurged. After he dies, the rest of the units in the stack lose divine justicars trait and will die permanently. As long as you win, regardless of whether the hero dies or not, he will be alive after combat is over.

    I c, interesting and weird. Well, I guess resurgence is therefore unnecessary as a Theocrat trait, which is actually good as I’d really prefer having it on the Sorcerer at a high level :).

    #118062

    Althea
    Member

    Not a surprise, because the trait that give army bonus, for example like +20% fire protection bonus for the hero’s army will instantly disappear if said hero die, his army won’t have the benefit of +20% fire protection as soon as he die.

    It’s quite hard to explain Divine justicar, so in short words it work quite differently than most other army bonus trait, because its effect is post battle.

    #118142

    happyworld
    Member

    Let’s look at the Theocrat (all data derived from the stuff posted by Mezmorki et al. here: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/tables-of-wonder/).

    First off, what is obvious for all classes is that above level 11 no new combat or leadership skills appear at all, and after level 13 nothing new appears. The level cap is 20 so there are definitely some empty slots that can be filled with new capabilities.

    I think on level 15 all classes should get a unique and powerful combat upgrade that is quite expansive, and on level 20 a “Paragon” ability that really puts them in a unique tear as combat units.

    ———

    New skills are a must for varied hero development, more skills unlocked at higher levels is also a greAt thing. Only I would prefer less stat driven skills”+2 def, +1res, 20% Blight Resistance, 20% Fire Resistance and Tireless for a cost of 10 points.” Seems a must buy. I would prefer new things

    new abilities
    1) Much like attack and defence choices movement points should be a choice. As should range.

    2) I have read in other posts about skills that increase a city, dwelling or other structure this would make a new way to evolve some heroes. Away from combat, magic and army leader. Towards empire leader or explorer
    In a city or dwelling skills that increase its happiness, population growth, building points, mana or gold income would be nice. Or skills that allow a cheaper cost of other units or buildings produced at this location or give them new abilities.
    In treasure sites etc skills that increase your booty such as finding better items, more gold, more creatures or spells etc.

    3) More combat buff and debuff abilities that either increase a friends potential or lower a enemies as an action or for free some would require the target unit to be adjacent. I.e

    Motivate: all allies within 1 space gain +2 movement points.
    Defend friend: chosen adjacent ally gains +1 defence and a chance that the unit with this ability takes the hit instead.
    Revive: chance that an adjacent fallen ally gains resurgence.
    Defend me: all ally’s gain +3 movement points if they move within 2 spaces of this hero.
    Defender: if chosen adjacent unit acts as cover for an enemies range attack the attack is at -1 additional damage.
    Demoralise: enemies within 2 hexes lose 200 happiness.
    Distract: chosen enemy within range gets -2 resistance.
    Infiltration: selected friendly unit disappears, at the beginning of the next turn it reappears behind the enemy lines.

    New battlefield skills
    Deployment: before combat you may exchange the location of 2 friendly units.
    Redeploy: in the first round of combat units in party may move up to 4 additional spaces.

    Combat skills
    Strike over: May make melee attacks past 1 adjacent ally.
    Deploy trap or bomb: ( depending on class) as action place trap or bomb if an enemy enters the space/s an effect happens.

    [quote=117818]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ExNihil wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div><br>

    Which got me thinking, a rebalance of the current hero classes to have more possible abilities might also be a good excuse to rebalance the leveling system to go to a higher point, say level 30. It would never really be an issue in short games, but it would have relevance for the much longer games played on larger maps (Ones lasting over 100 turns)

    This is a great idea. by providing more abilities that give your hero options not statistics increases it will help to keep the game balanced while providing even more paths to victory.

    #118157

    Althea
    Member

    2) I have read in other posts about skills that increase a city, dwelling or other structure this would make a new way to evolve some heroes. Away from combat, magic and army leader. Towards empire leader or explorer
    In a city or dwelling skills that increase its happiness, population growth, building points, mana or gold income would be nice. Or skills that allow a cheaper cost of other units or buildings produced at this location or give them new abilities.
    In treasure sites etc skills that increase your booty such as finding better items, more gold, more creatures or spells etc.

    Hey this is very excellent idea.

    This inspire me to have insane idea.

    A trait called Friend of giants. Reduce cost of giants by 30%. Even better if this is gained through quest from the giant.

    Or even more complex trait system that allow specific building to be constructed in specific dwelling after the hero learn the trait. For example: Lost lores of the First Age, given by dragons through quest, allowing the hero’s empire to construct Temple of the First Age in dragon’s peak. Effect: Allows all dragon to get intense breath attack at elite medal. The breath attack of all dragons have 50% damage increase and ignore 50% of enemy’s elemental protection.

    #118170

    Althea
    Member

    Or even more complex trait system that allow specific building to be constructed in specific dwelling after the hero learn the trait. For example: Lost lores of the First Age, given by dragons through quest, allowing the hero’s empire to construct Temple of the First Age in dragon’s peak. Effect: Allows all dragon to get intense breath attack at elite medal. The breath attack of all dragons have 50% damage increase and ignore 50% of enemy’s elemental protection.

    Ok forget this idea. After some thought about this, i think this is actually a bad idea. This will eliminate the difference of each dragons.

    A cost reducing trait is better.

    #118264

    katieandbo
    Member

    What do you consider minimal “survival” levels – meaning hit points, defense, resistance?

    #118271

    Gloweye
    Member

    for heroes? I usually put about 1-2 levels in HP/Def/Res even for spellcasters. They get expensive really fast though, so I always hope for good items…Even vorsar’s shoes of merit have some merit..

    #118429

    Althea
    Member

    Guess survival levels really depends on how you play the game, i mean your play style.

    But from what i’ve seen. Heroes with 16 def and 14 res are already hard to kill with right equipment, assumed you don’t use it heavily as frontline combatant like your T4. What really important i think is item that grants elemental protection. You can craft it yourself though, 2 rings can give a maximum of 80% protection (20% x 4) to one element.

    #118433

    ExNihil
    Member

    It really depends on the race, thats why Dwaven heroes are the best- +1 def / +1 res and mobility perks. I think the minimum for safe creeping is 12def/12res and 60hp. if you want a combat unit hero then u need a lot more, but these stats will ensure survival through auto-combat in most situations.

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