Let's Talk About Hellfire

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Let's Talk About Hellfire

This topic contains 23 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  NuMetal 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
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  • #210909

    quo
    Member

    I know this is going to trigger shouting from some people but I think of all the topics discussed on this forum this one deserves a go:

    Hellfire’s description:

    Cost: 50

    Effect: Deals 30 Physical Text damage against all walls and 50 Fire Text damage against all units (including the caster’s). Causes severe happiness penalties and population change when cast during a city battle.

    General application:

    Player builds an army of Fire Immune units and blasts the enemy with this.

    Let me be plain here: I hate this spell. I hate it more than any ability in this otherwise well-ish designed game. Even when I take Fire spec I never cast it because it feels way too cheesy. If the AI started using this against me I’d probably ragequit. It’s pretty much the standard for me of a cheeseball move.

    It seems to me like this would be way more fair if the damage were reduced, and all units were Immolated and Scorched for a period of time after.

    Ok, scream at me now and tell me why I’m a whining noob. 🙂

    #210948

    You’re a whining noob because….

    😛

    Actually, you can “cheese” with disjuncted mana core (same effect, just a slight delay) and earthquake (just bring floaters).

    And there is always one spell or other that attracts ire. A certain someone dislikes disintegrate (I love it, as I think it’s the antidote to stack of doom cheese), you dislike hellfire (I think it’s great, the perfect anti blob -itself arguably AI specific cheese*- spell)

    I did see a proposal to put in some physical damage as well. Not sure how to justify that lorewise (although the spell affects all walls, not just wooden gates like fireball does, so there is that…) but gameplay wise it means the hellfire user suffers some damage as well.

    * as in a Human can’t hope to compete in numbers.

    #210993

    Zaskow
    Member

    So, I think you was not happy with Chaos Rift before nerf too?

    #210998

    CSav10
    Member

    Chaos before nerf was still disjunctable. Though having it last the entire battle was silly. These spells are really late game and require a good chunk of mana at any rate and CP. I find earth mastery druid with earthquake the best bet. Still it does require wild hunt and earthquake both researched. If you can get a decent amount of mana/CP on a dreadnought leader and enough fire resistance, mana bomb and hellfire is insane combined(we are talking very late game though).

    #211035

    Half and half would be a good change. Makes the mana core more unique.

    #211038

    Ericridge
    Member

    I like hellfire, it makes fielding fire immune units more rewarding and interesting experience.

    #211077

    quo
    Member

    So, I think you was not happy with Chaos Rift before nerf too?

    I think Chaos Rift deserved the nerf it got, but was at least disjunctable.

    It’s been a long time since I actually saw Hellfire get cast, because I don’t use it on principal. But I don’t think it has changed since then except for the racial happiness penalty when used in a city. As I recall it did 50 instant damage to everything on the battle field and basically wiped out all the T1 and T2 units who didn’t have Fire protection.

    It seems to me that lower initial damage followed by a high chance for Immolate (-300 happy, -1 def, -1 resist, -2 Phys damage) and Scorched (-3 attack strength) for 2 rounds would be just as powerful without being an instant death spell. Fire Immune units would resist both procs, so you’d still have the “build fire units” strategy going. And then Water Mastery would have a decent counter in Healing Showers, which specifically puts out Fire debuffs.

    I did see a proposal to put in some physical damage as well. Not sure how to justify that lorewise (although the spell affects all walls, not just wooden gates like fireball does, so there is that…) but gameplay wise it means the hellfire user suffers some damage as well.

    The Fireball spell includes Physical damage (10 Phys, 12 Fire), so there is at least precedent.

    #211125

    Ericridge
    Member

    Hellfire isn’t instant death spell that you make it out to be.

    I’ve had recruit rank engineers survive being hit by hellfire that isn’t in defend stance. It can do alot of damage and at same time it can roll down and wound enemy troops only.

    #211127

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Hellfire isn’t instant death spell that you make it out to be.

    I’ve had recruit rank engineers survive being hit by hellfire that isn’t in defend stance. It can do alot of damage and at same time it can roll down and wound enemy troops only.

    Engineers have innate 60% Fire Protection, you know…

    Anyway, as in the other thread, I approve of the idea of making Hellfire into mixed Physical/Fire. Perhaps 25/30 to account for the fact that hybridizing the spell does make it weaker against higher defensive values. Also, 25/30 is 2.5 times the damage values of Fireball’s 10/12 exactly.

    Personally, Hellfire is essentially a meteor shower(as the spell icon would indicate in the previous games at least, albeit less so for this one), not actual raw fire falling from the skies.

    #211129

    Ericridge
    Member

    I’d have to disagree with nerfing the hellfire. It’s a endgame spell for goodness sake, not even chaos’ rift’s actual damage got nerfed, only it’s duration.

    #211132

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It’s also a spell with exceedingly low counter play if someone does not have Fire Immune units, which will often single-shot T1(and sometimes T2) units. Earthquake at least does less damage, and has somewhat more stringent requirements to avoid damage.

    #211133

    Ericridge
    Member

    It’s also a spell with exceedingly low counter play if someone does not have Fire Immune units, which will often single-shot T1(and sometimes T2) units. Earthquake at least does less damage, and has somewhat more stringent requirements to avoid damage.

    Earthquake is even more easier to avoid. All you need is floating / flying and presto! Unless you cast heavy gravity in advance but then your foe will know what’s happening.

    Plus, Hellfire is considered endgame spell and any tier 1 tier 2 that survive to the point of seeing a hellfire is likely champions/ freshly recruited. And taht’s not all, hellfire is intended spell to punish blobbing. If people is screaming about hellfire killing their swarm, it is successful at it’s intended job.

    Also it costs 50 CP. Even at 400 CP. That’s just eight hellfires?
    If hellfire is oneshotting tier 4s without any kind of debuff on enemy units that makes it vulnerable to fire then it will be looked at. For that is disintegration’s job.

    When hellfire is available, that means tough units that can’t be oneshot easily is also available at same time. At most you’re likely to see 2 hellfires in a single battle. The number rises the longer the game goes on and you allow the said hellfire spammer snowball with it’s palaces. Then at that point you likely have lost unless you create an alliance to destroy him/her.

    #211181

    Bouh
    Member

    How ironical this is from you Quo, but I shouldn’t be surprised.

    Hellfire is a spe spell you can build an entire strategy around, and if you do it it put so much pressure on the ennemy it will shape the rest of the battle as well as the atomic bomb shaped the cold war or planes shaped the WW2.

    It would be a shame to lose this spell only because someone don’t want to adapt.

    This is the kind of spell that can supplement anything your class have to take the ennemy by surprise, or simply to bypass the kind of problem some people have when their class is less effective against another.

    This is the kind of spell that gives a whole other dimension to the game. People who don’t like it only seek to play the game in one and only one way, and that would be so much less than what the game currently is.

    #211293

    quo
    Member

    I’ve never had an AI cast it at me, don’t know how I’d react if one did.

    I have only cast the spell twice maybe. I built a… a “strategy” around it, if you call it that. But quickly decided it was overpowered as hell (see what I did there?) and never cast it again.

    Do Frostling Necromancers basically just melt when this spell goes off? That’s what, around 80-100pts of damage? ;/

    #211309

    Smaug3
    Member

    Do Frostling Necromancers basically just melt when this spell goes off? That’s what, around 80-100pts of damage? ;/

    But that’s an issue with that combination, not the spell itself. By that logic, you could argue that chaos rift wrecks machines, as they all have shock weakness.

    #211313

    quo
    Member

    But that’s an issue with that combination, not the spell itself. By that logic, you could argue that chaos rift wrecks machines, as they all have shock weakness.

    I didn’t think Chaos Rift hit everything at once, and it was also disjunctable. It also collapses if you kill the caster. Powerful, yes. Nothing like Hellfire.

    Same thing with Mana Core. You can avoid it by disjuncting, running before it goes off, or ending the battle first.

    #211317

    Smaug3
    Member

    But that’s an issue with that combination, not the spell itself. By that logic, you could argue that chaos rift wrecks machines, as they all have shock weakness.

    I didn’t think Chaos Rift hit everything at once, and it was also disjunctable. It also collapses if you kill the caster. Powerful, yes. Nothing like Hellfire.

    Same thing with Mana Core. You can avoid it by disjuncting, running before it goes off, or ending the battle first.

    To be fair, hellfire also doesn’t summon armies of combat summons that keep coming till you stop the rift. And chaos rift, while striking only one unit at a time, spreads to units within three hexs, and repeats this process. That, at least in my book, is more effective on a small group of powerful units than hellfire will ever be. And mana core is actually more powerful than hellfire. Hellfire strikes all units for 50, mana core strikes all units for 60.

    #211365

    Gloweye
    Member

    And chaos rift, while striking only one unit at a time, spreads to units within three hexs, and repeats this process.

    Uhm? Are we talking about the same Chaos Rift?

    Cause what it does is this:
    1) Summon a unit
    2) strike 2 or 3 times, in a 7-hex AoE. (20-odd damage)

    That damage proc sounds pretty different the way you describe it – you make it sound like Chain Lightning.

    #211366

    Smaug3
    Member

    Whoops, thanks for pointing that out. I was referring to its effect, I just got the range screwed up. Haven’t casted chaos rift for about six months. 😛

    #211602

    malaficus
    Member

    Do not touch the only good nuke left in the game.
    It is bad enough magic is weak as it is.
    Nerfing one of the few nukes in the game would really ruin the game for people like me.
    It is bad enough chaos rift has been reduced to four turns.

    #211606

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Magic is… weak? o_O

    #211620

    Gloweye
    Member

    Magic is Weakness
    –The Warlord Class

    Must say I don’t really agree, though in SP games I generally try not to need my CP to win battles. That’s cause you’re fighting a real lot of battles per turn.

    #211738

    Fenraellis
    Member

    To be fair, the Warlord class has some really great ‘magic’, even if it’s not perceived as magic in the same was as a Sorcerer’s or Archdruid’s abilities.

    #211779

    NuMetal
    Member

    I like hellfire, it makes fielding fire immune units more rewarding and interesting experience.

    Yeah, I feel the same way about it and I’d like it to stay the way it is.

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