Longswordman/Halberdier balance issue

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Longswordman/Halberdier balance issue

This topic contains 15 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Steelhill 7 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #180320

    Astraflame
    Member

    This has been bothering me for a long time, previously discussed here http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/civic-guard-and-longbowman/page/3/ and in other older threads before that.

    Right, the issue is that the Longswordman, unlike any other T1 infantry has been made almost obsolete by the Pikeman unit of the same race, ever since that unit, the Halberdier recieved the main offensive ability of the longswordman, overwhelm. A quick look proves there is no other race where the Pikeman unit does this to the infantry unit, this is an issue because often Pikemen units are inherently more useful than infatry units(Especially by mid-late game) and the human infantry is the obvious weakest link.

    So whats the point in building longswordman? Its sole purpose seems to be a unit producable before the war hall has been constructed or in case of one class(Theocrat) to work with mark of the heretic. That’s not acceptable. I suppose they climb the wall but all T1 infantry untis can do this, like all pikemen got firststrike, polearm and pike square.

    There must be something else to make the player want to build them over the pikeman other than the +1 def more that they have, especially since T1 units are mostly good for garrison duty and obviously Pikemen are ideal at keeping the harrasers away(Flyers, cavalry, heroes) I can’t rememeber the last time i made Longswordmans in a serious game, i don’t see that my opponents builds them either, Halberdier is THE unit unfortunately(i see Theos build them for the devoud synergy with the class)

    So what to do?

    The logical solution would be to remove Overwhelm from the Halberdier, that would balance them. However, i don’t like that solution because it’s nerfing the human race as a whole, something i don’t think they need. Especially considering that many other races got buffed T1.

    In the other thread, a few IMO good things were suggested to help the longswordman become a more attractive choice, coup de grace etc.

    A final note, the longswordman didn’t even receive a gorvernance upgrade that went to the civic guard instead, a bit upsetting since the longsword needed something and is IMO more important than the irregular unit of the race.

    #180375

    greyclouds
    Member

    I think that you make a good point that the longsword’s main benefit over other tier 1 infantry (overwhelm) is superceded by the halbedier’s possession of that same trait, but I think that you’re overlooking three things that place the longsword ahead of the halbedier (at least in subtle terms):

    • The longsword has one extra defense
    • The longsword cannot be hit by the increased damage of overwhelm (the halbedier — having a pike — can).
    • The longsword has wall-climbing.

    Not much, but quite important during city sieges. So, in the open, halbedier’s are more useful, whereas during sieges they are less useful. Both cost the same.

    In a straight-up fight, the longsword would kill the halbedier (due to the discrepancy in defense and overwhelm affliction).

    #180447

    Astraflame
    Member

    True in a fight between them the longswordman is going to win, but the issue is hardly 1vs1 battles between the two units or against other overwhelm t1 infantry for that matter and i did consider the +1 def and wall climbing. Because that’s what any infantry can do(kill pike) while the Halberdier(or any other pike unit) would be best against cavalry/flyer/hero.

    The issue is that the Halberdier has got the overwhelm meaning it’s more versatile and hence why most it seems does not build the longswordman. Compared to other races, we don’t see an equivalent since their pike does not ”steal” the main offensive tool and one out of only two abilities of this ”bland” infantry unit.

    A few examples, the orc greatsword offers +1 damage and overwhelm, the dwarf got defensive strike and shield, demolisher. Yet the orc/dwarf pikemen will always be produced since pikemen are just IMO better units in general, especially since the role of T1 melee is garrison duty for most part and not city assaults, they’re not durable enough for that except for early fight vs independents or the ones with gold/champion medals.

    #180471

    Zaskow
    Member

    A few examples, the orc greatsword offers +1 damage and overwhelm

    And warcry.
    Any swordsman or pikeman will fail against warcried orcs.

    #180475

    Gloweye
    Member

    A few examples, the orc greatsword offers +1 damage and overwhelm, the dwarf got defensive strike and shield, demolisher. Yet the orc/dwarf pikemen will always be produced since pikemen are just IMO better units in general, especially since the role of T1 melee is garrison duty for most part and not city assaults, they’re not durable enough for that except for early fight vs independents or the ones with gold/champion medals.

    Kind of disagree here – the Dwarf Axeman has a couple of distinct advantages over the Deepguard, and Defensive Strike is a pretty strong ability. That one alone gets me to prefer them over Deepguards in cases of conversion.

    #180489

    Astraflame
    Member

    Kind of disagree here – the Dwarf Axeman has a couple of distinct advantages over the Deepguard, and Defensive Strike is a pretty strong ability. That one alone gets me to prefer them over Deepguards in cases of conversion.

    That’s what i’m saying =) I think you misunderstood me. The dwarf infantry clearly offers something to make the player want to produce them over the Deep guard, yet i said the Deep guard being a pikeman unit will still be attractive, since pikemen are generally better garrison troops and you need them vs cavalry/flyers etc.

    Now what if we gave the shield/demolisher to the Deep Guard, how would the dwarf axeman feel about that? Or overwhelm to the orc pikeman, that’s the situation the human longswordman finds himself in.

    #180492

    Astraflame
    Member

    And warcry.
    Any swordsman or pikeman will fail against warcried orcs.

    For the record, Orc impaler also get warcry.

    #180527

    Zaskow
    Member

    For the record, Orc impaler also get warcry.

    That’s why I wrote “orcs” not orc swordsman.
    As for me I’d drop price of elven and human swordsmen a bit (-3-5 gold), because they haven’t any special ability or stats and weaker than analogues of other races.

    #180537

    Astraflame
    Member

    That’s why I wrote “orcs” not orc swordsman.

    I was comparing the Greatsword vs Impaler, and both get warcry so no advantage there for the infantry, hence why i did not list it.

    Hmmm they’re kinda cheap already when it comes to production costs at least and 50 gold is affordable, i prefer a new ability, even if it must come with medals.

    #180548

    Zaskow
    Member

    Orc swordsman costs 50 gold too.

    #180601

    +1 spirit damage at veteran? Makes them good for dreads, WL, Theo’s.

    #180680

    Astraflame
    Member

    +1 damage of spirit channel could work, altough i’d prefer an interesting ability instead to really set it apart from the Halberdier, like other races. A new ability with medals is a fine idea though, let them work for it.

    #180821

    Zaskow
    Member

    +1 damage of spirit channel could work, altough i’d prefer an interesting ability instead to really set it apart from the Halberdier, like other races. A new ability with medals is a fine idea though, let them work for it.

    Sprint?
    Martial arts?
    First strike?
    Projectile resistance?
    Charge?

    #180844

    vota dc
    Member

    Pikeman slayer…that would mean a total +6 bonus against pikes!

    #181784

    Astraflame
    Member

    Sprint?
    Martial arts?
    First strike?
    Projectile resistance?
    Charge?

    The only one i don’t like is First strike and Proj res is kinda ”meh” :D, i’d prefer any fun to use mechanic like charge or martial arts, also coup de grace would be kinda neat, considering the synergy with the civic guard. First strike while pretty cool if inherent would make them more similar than they already are.

    Pikeman slayer…that would mean a total +6 bonus against pikes!

    Could work, but that would really specialise them and kinda OP vs pikes.

    #182837

    Steelhill
    Member

    A skill that gave them +2 def against melee attacks (“parry”? only against front attacks?).

    Oh and projectile resistance as a gold medal.

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