Low health units just as strong as full health?

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Low health units just as strong as full health?

This topic contains 107 replies, has 75 voices, and was last updated by  DeclanTKatt 8 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 108 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #60680

    AlSameesh
    Member

    When units loose health, members of the party are shown as dying off in a manner proportionate to the damage.

    why then do these depleted units get to do just as much damage as when full health?

    I was fighting a unit of the orc priests, which starts with 3 members. I had it down to just one member and something like 3 or 4 HP left, but this lone priest could still put out just as much damage as when the unit was fresh.

    does this not seem odd?

    #60688

    oasis
    Member

    It’s by design. I don’t remember the exact reason, but I believe it had something to do with the devs wanting combat to stay brutal throughout the fight and not have units that become useless while at low damage. I quite like it this way as you always know what you’re going to get out of a unit.

    #60693

    LungDrago
    Member

    Why depict multiple members in a unit then? And have them die off? It’s unnecessarily misleading.

    #60723

    oasis
    Member

    For one it looks cool, and gives a sense of big battles. I love casting Magic Fist on an enemy and watching their guys fly in every direction 🙂

    #60732

    ashbery76
    Member

    That was the problem with AOW2 and Fallen enchantress.It felt like battles between D&d parties and not nations.

    #60739

    Terozo
    Member

    Also, for the lower tier units I like to gauge unit health by the number of characters in a unit remaining.

    #60742

    LeBurns
    Member

    I have to agree with the OP. I thought charging a unicorn up against a ‘badly damaged’ unit to finish it off was a good idea, then got hit with a full powered counter attack after I knocked the thing down to just a couple HP.

    I also agree that is it very misleading to actually see units fall while the group strength remains the same.

    Call it what you want, but I think they just got lazy. Course it works both ways, I can have a elven longbow unit with 1 HP left do full. But it still doesn’t make sense.

    #60759

    LordAMV
    Member

    I agree with this as well…

    Triumph tried to change from the mechanic in previous games where each unit was a single unit because it seemed smaller scale and they wanted to represent entire armies battling in AoW3. So they made it so that each unit now represents a squad in most cases – but never changed the damage mechanic.

    I would have much preferred the old mechanic, where each unit is just one unit. I understand why they changed things, but it doesn’t really make sense to keep the same damage if these are representing squads of men dying left and right.

    #60772

    LordTheRon
    Member

    You get used to it really quickly. It’s a design choice that differs from the paths other games haven chosen. I came from Fallen Enchantress before joining the beta. Had to get used to it for two days and don’t know any better by now.

    There’s been quite a discussion about it at the beginning of the beta. It’s not laziness at all, just a design choice by TS.

    It’s no different from how this worked in previous installments, only the fact that they’ve chose to depict more units graphically.

    #60782

    Joni
    Member

    I agree that this is quite a major design flaw. Numerous reviewers and most youtube players criticized/did not get this – it is very counter-intuitive. Unfortunately it is much too late to drastically change now, unless a bigger addon allowed for some more in-depht rules redesign.

    My “compromise suggestion” would be to have a relatively simple “debuff” system: If a multi-figure unit loses 25/50/75% of its health, it gets a -2/-3-/-6 damage debuff (possibly called something like “minor/medium/many losses”). Numbers up for discussion of course.

    I think that this would only need relatively minor re-balancing (maybe add a few health points here and there), but should be doable.

    Nevertheless, I think that MoM did it right with having stats for each figure, which made for a much more interesting/complex mechanic: http://masterofmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Normal_Unit

    I am convinced that with proper rebalancing it would be possible to achieve a system that takes into account Triumphs fear of one player getting overwhelmed too quickly, which was – if I am not mistaken – their main reasoning for the current flawed concept.

    #60801

    DevildogFF
    Member

    /agreed

    It doesn’t make sense as a design decision. I’d much prefer units do less damage the more damaged they are.

    If you assumed that each unit was a small “platoon” of each unit type, as they look, it would naturally mean that the less members of the platoon that are left, the less damage they are capable of delivering.

    If you’re worried about low-HP parties, consider allowing full HP replenishment after one turn within your boundaries and slower outside of them.

    Something like that.

    But I don’t like it all right now.

    #60804

    Cortlendt
    Member

    I consider this a major disappointment in the game. Visualizing single units as stacks is a cheap mechanic.

    Simple solution:
    Visualize single units just as they are – single units and remove stacks altogether. Gameplay will at least feel coherent and intuitive.

    Best solution:
    Introduce scaling per model of damage being done by a unit. This will increase variety and depth (swarms vs single powerful units or low count stacks) and fix this unfortunate design flaw.

    #60805

    I think it was suggested that it was done this way because, at least in the case of Fallen Enchantress, bringing a unit down to a certain amount of health where there was only one or two left just largely made the unit insignificant on the battlefield. It was too easy just to whittle each unit down and then just mop up whoever was left because they couldn’t really do anything to you with the low numbers in each unit. It didn’t take me long to get used to this system at all. I understand from the get go that if it’s still breathing, it can hurt. This system, I believe, allows the lower tier units to remain viable in the later stages of the game and is better for the game in the long run. Easier to balance too.

    #60806

    Thanks for the eye-opener. I had been assuming they would be weaker, too, and hadn’t noticed this yet. I have been using heal spells to get that extra unit out and do more damage… doh. I think I was playing too much Fallen Enchantress, where damage is certainly multiplied by the number of visible units in a company.

    Given AoW isn’t likely to change it, does anybody have ideas on how to make it more obvious this is what’s happening? I might have noticed this earlier if the life bars weren’t so hard for me to read. I’m still getting the hang of processing all the damage flying around.

    #60815

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I agree that this is quite a major design flaw. Numerous reviewers and most youtube players criticized/did not get this – it is very counter-intuitive. Unfortunately it is much too late to drastically change now, unless a bigger addon allowed for some more in-depht rules redesign.

    Yes, it is indeed a “major” design flaw, and various media and players have criticized it. And I still don’t see a rationale for it. It is both conceptually counter-intuitive; and it is also strategically limiting, as you are locked onto focus-firing a wounded unit.

    I do not agree with you that it is “too late” to change though. All that is needed will be some numbers re-balancing.

    #60816

    LeBurns
    Member

    I think it was suggested that it was done this way because, at least in the case of Fallen Enchantress, bringing a unit down to a certain amount of health where there was only one or two left just largely made the unit insignificant on the battlefield. It was too easy just to whittle each unit down and then just mop up whoever was left because they couldn’t really do anything to you with the low numbers in each unit. It didn’t take me long to get used to this system at all. I understand from the get go that if it’s still breathing, it can hurt. This system, I believe, allows the lower tier units to remain viable in the later stages of the game and is better for the game in the long run. Easier to balance too.

    Ironically this happened to me last night. I had a couple enemy units down to just one little guy standing, so I ignored them. Next turn they wailed on me and took out some of my better units.

    Now no matter how weak someone appears, I will be beating on them until they are completely and utterly dead. Lesson learned I guess.

    #60826

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I think it was suggested that it was done this way because, at least in the case of Fallen Enchantress, bringing a unit down to a certain amount of health where there was only one or two left just largely made the unit insignificant on the battlefield. It was too easy just to whittle each unit down and then just mop up whoever was left because they couldn’t really do anything to you with the low numbers in each unit. It didn’t take me long to get used to this system at all. I understand from the get go that if it’s still breathing, it can hurt. This system, I believe, allows the lower tier units to remain viable in the later stages of the game and is better for the game in the long run. Easier to balance too.

    But even this rationale makes no sense: In Fallen Enchantress, units miss; here they don’t. So even “weakened” unit will do at least 1 point of damage per attack–which is actually often no more than what a weak unit will do versus a very strong hero or unit anyways.

    I guess another rationale was to ensure that lower tier units remain relevant throughout by being able to deliver full damage. But even then, I find T1/T2 units utterly useless unless they are ranged or support with a few exceptions (Assassins, for example). I think a better way of tackling lower tier melee obsolescence was to give them a much higher hit points/defense.

    #60833

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Now no matter how weak someone appears, I will be beating on them until they are completely and utterly dead. Lesson learned I guess.

    And this is a piss poor way of designing tactical combat. Of all my complaints so far, this focus-fire mechanic and lower tier melee obsolescence are the two most egregious issues.

    #60854

    zekses
    Member

    Tbh, I think I will probably put the game on hold just because of this issue. It is this much detrimental to actual strategy and counter intuitive. if this is not fixed I will likely not play again as weakening units is one of the key factors that actually made AoW what it was.

    #60861

    units never got weaker as they took damage in AoW 😛

    #60872

    zekses
    Member

    Admittedly, I last played AoW around the same time as master of magic and maybe the two got mixed XD Still don’t like it

    #60890

    J_i_O
    Member

    I really can’t believe such a strong opposition to a graphical/immersive choice.
    Like iHunterKiller said, AoW NEVER penalised the players by weakening the units as they take damage. While it could work for some games, it definitely slows combat down by trying to avoid risks and it punishes bold moves/unlucky numbers.
    The number of units in display serve as a an immersion tactic: You get the feeling of empires fighting when you get to besieging a metropolis, sorrounded by armies everywhere, bodies lying on the ground. It also helps show a difference between the tiers/strength of the units.
    Also, the units may help get a sense of how much life said unit has. Like the red bar of life, like the torn flag, just a bit prettier.
    It is NOT a “piss poor way of designing tactical combat”. Because it’s not part of the combat, it’s a visual feature.
    Besides, honestly, play the game a couple of hours, it REALLY shouldn’t be that hard to notice.

    #61000

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Admittedly, I last played AoW around the same time as master of magic and maybe the two got mixed XD Still don’t like it

    Master of Magic certainly did multi-figure units correctly. In fact, I don’t know any major TBS game with a system like AOW 3 where loss of figures doesn’t mean reduction in power.

    #61051

    Azunai
    Member

    i agree that it’s a bit counter-intuitive. not such a big deal for me, though. maybe the devs will consider an option to display all units a single figures if enough players complain. i don’t really care either way – i can live with graphics that just represent the HP of the unit and not the damage potential.

    #61105

    Never really played AW series because I got turned off by the lack of random map generator prior to Shadow Magic. I have to say that this topic answers the question as to why I am getting owned in this game despite having some experience playing strategy in general.

    I reckon it is understandable if they retained single units and they deal the same damage (e.g a well-trained warrior that is dying could still kill you until you put him down) compared to representing armies.

    On one hand, this mechanic encourages me to really be careful of my moves but it is a bit hard for me to use units as tanks, especially when the enemies still deal out full damage.

    #61308

    Strider
    Member

    While I agree it might be counter-intuitive, IMO, “J_I_O” said it well: it’s a visual feature and it serves to create more of an idea of armies fighting rather than single units. It has no bearing on the mechanical aspects of the tactical combat. If being damaged reduced their capacity to do damage, lowered tiered units would be more irrelevant. It would also contribute in making the “attack or else” tactical decision moot: attacking would be the best choice offensively speaking AND defensively speaking. Healing spells and other support options would have to be completely revalued, since by not attacking, the unit would have lost the opportunity to do damage and reduce the offensive power of the enemy anyway.

    #61342

    Xerberus86
    Member

    depleted units doing full hp was kinda weird for the first 2-3 battles but you get used to it!

    there are really only two options which they could’ve gone / change it now:

    a) units which hp gets reduced do NOT deplete

    b) units which hp gets reduced will deplete and their strength goes down proportional to the unit count. that is almost impossible to do on a short notice because it will completely unbalance all the units and they would need to start from scrath to balance the game! they deceided to let them deplete while still remaining at full strength for more visual effects and to show more FX (for more immersion).

    my personal favorite would be c) just live with it, it really is not that bad!

    #61348

    Tanuki
    Member

    Besides, honestly, play the game a couple of hours, it REALLY shouldn’t be that hard to notice.

    It’s good that it does work this way for you, but for me it is still quite annoying and counter-intuitive.
    Seriously, this just bows down to poor design choice. The idea was to make battles look more meaty? But has AoW ever been about that? Won’t say so.
    And in case, you still want to change a visual representation – no problem, back it up with some actual mechanics. But them stopping half way…well, it just makes me cringe, when the last assassin can just come up to my full-health squad of archers and just murder them with what seems like one stab of a knife.
    I guess, the expectations for AoW3 were so high, that things like this just stand out more than they should.

    #61362

    Mansen
    Member

    I thought it was already like this? Or rather units where individuals within the unit had died, meant less combat damage – Which would make single creature units stronger since they stay alive when taking damage.

    #61372

    ffbj
    Member

    I think a simple reduction in amount of damage done would be best. For a visual you have unit numbers, usually 3 or six. So 1/3 less damage for each unit that falls, in the 3 stack, and 1/6 less damage for 6 stacks. Same number of attacks, movement, etc.. just less damage. Heroes and individual units would not be affected.
    Yeah, I had that happen, the assassin archer thing. With the above method, he would probably kill about half of them. Conversely you could also reduce number of attacks when unit numbers fall, but this might be more problematic, for instance if that also applies to movement, or action points. Or some combination thereof.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 108 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.