Making currently rarely used DWELLING units more useful

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Making currently rarely used DWELLING units more useful

This topic contains 31 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  namalotus 1 year, 12 months ago.

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  • #252183

    Hiliadan
    Member

    (this comes from a discussion started here: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/making-currently-rarely-used-units-more-useful/ and then split in two as the topic is quite vast)

    Several Dwelling units are rarely used for many reasons (I’m quoting a lot from NINJEW): 1/ fairly difficult to get (guarded by T4, , 2/ need to invest a lot of money into them before they’re useful (being placed at the center of the map, they are always pretty expensive to vassalize, because they’re far away from your main cities. On top of this, once you do vassalize them, they don’t provide much economically (while the cheaper, closer indie cities will generally provide pretty good resource income for their cost). After absorbing them, you need to pay a lot and spend a lot of turns to build their expensive buildings. And 3/ their position at the center of the map also means they will often change hands, interrupting the potential ongoing construction of the buildings and further slowing down their development, which means they’re not the best place to invest in.
    The units rarely used include:
    – most of the first units from Dwellings: T1 Fairy (though they have interesting attack and Bard Aura), Ogres, Revenant Infantry or Archer…
    – Merfolk units

    Solutions discussed to make them more useful include:
    a/ make them easier to build (reduce the length of their building chain and reduce the costs of the building)
    – a.2/ change the building chains and costs for the Fey Dwelling:
    100 gold – T1 building – same as Barracks
    150 gold (unchanged) – T2 building – 25 lower than War Hall
    250 gold – T3 building (and replace some gold by mana?) – 50 gold lower and 100 mana lower than the T3 racial building
    Make it possible to build the Nymphs and Unicorns’ buildings if you have the T1 building, and reduce their cost to maybe 100 each.
    Keep the defense building in a separate building chain.
    a.3/ change the building chains and costs for the Archon Revenant Dwelling:
    50 gold (was 100) for the Graveyard – unlocks Infantry
    50 gold (was 100) for the Charnel House – unlocks Archer; total cost of unlocking Infantry and Archer = 100, similar to Barracks
    50 gold and 25 mana (was 50+50) for Sigil of Awakening – gives +10 mana/turn, similar cost (75) to Shrine
    Obelisk of Undeath – gives Cursed to enemy units in domain; what cost decrease?
    Barrow – unlock Caster; add mana bonus or reduce cost?
    Haunted vault needs the same buildings as Barrow (and does not need Barrow any more, as it produces a T2). Its cost is 135 gold and 40 mana (was 160 gold and 40 mana), as War Hall

    b/ make other units harder to build (e.g. add some additional buildings in their building chains or increase the costs of existing buildings)

    c/ make them cheaper or other units more expensive

    d/ boost their stats or weaken the stats of other units

    e/ give them more abilities or more interactions with other units

    f/ other
    – f.1/ increase the income generated by Dwellings to make them more useful to control
    – f.2/ make Dwellings targetable by spells that boost cities (and do not affect population) such as Mana Fuel Cell

    #252187

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Hiliadan wrote:

    – Archon Caster is pretty good and superior to racial support because it has Heal Undead, LRU on medal

    This stuff is useless for normal living class.

    Sure but you know, all the units from the Archon (revenant) Dwelling are Undead, right? 😛 So you can use the Heal and the LRU on all the units from the Dwelling (that are T1-T2 for LRU) and that’s already very good. Other Dwellings do not come with a Healer, though of course they have natural healing, but Heal Undead is superior heal and LRU is also pretty good (though on medal).

    Main problem of archon dwelling is its usefulness for Necro mostly. Do you want to fix this or no?

    I’m not sure about that. Of course it works better for Necro, that’s beyond question, but you don’t really need it when you play Necro actually. It can be quite useful when you play another class and you play Evil, e.g. AD to get a T4 that you can produce. As JJ said, if you have a Necro hero, it’s perfect, if not, you need to get the Caster.

    – I’m not sure if we should move Throne of Bone to 3rd in the building chain. Then is it necessary to build Mauselum? And is the Wraith building necessary to build it? If yes, then it’s a very different chain from the Titan, which means you won’t be able to build both because it’s too costly.

    Throne of Bone gives access to T3 unit, in other dwellings T3 units build from 3rd buildings or even earlier (http://i.imgur.com/qdArrayu9ui.jpg).
    I was planning to move Haunted Vault to 2nd tier with Charnel House and Graveyard as prerequisites and move Throne of Bone to 3rd tier with Haunted Vault as prerequisite.
    Building chains would cost less, because Haunted Vault must cost cheaper (as recruitment place to T2) and with cheaper Charnel House and Graveyard.

    Buidling chain for Wraith King would be cheaper. But if you want to build Wraith King AND Titan, it would be more expensive. Linking Charnel House and Graveyard to other buildings is not going to make the Archon Dwelling more attractive, rather the opposite.

    class imbalance, dread spell would be great, AD spell of no use at all. So would need to be new spells, maybe different depending on dwelling but available to every class

    AD also has Poison Domain, Nature’s Eyes, Throne Hedge Walls that would all work on Dwelling, your specific example does not bring any imbalance. I don’t think creating new spells would be required here.
    Also it would mean spells like Embrace Darkness could be used on Dwellings which would significantly boost them (maybe too much actually!).

    The idea of JJ is interesting:

    There seems to be an alternative, and that is, Chamber of Rite giving all visiting Supports Heal Undead (if that’s even possible to mod)

    That’s an option. Another would be to have 1 building give a “healing aura for undeads” (name wanted) to all allied Undead in the domain: they would heal 6 HP/turn while in domain. That way, no need for Necro or Caster.

    Regarding the building chains for Caster, I think the cost reductions proposed by JJ go too far. The Sigil can’t cost 25 gold + 25 mana when it gives +10 mana/turn like a Shrine. The Obelisk can’t cost 25 gold + 50 mana when it gives Cursed to all enemy units, which is very strong.
    I suggest instead to move the Obelisk in the building chain: it would be unlocked by the Sigil and would not be necessary for the Barrow. But it would be required for the Chamber of the Rite.

    EDIT: @zaskow: in the Merfolk Dwelling, the buildings unlocking Supports like Mermaid or Siren do not give mana. I don’t see why a building unlocking a Support should generate mana, like you suggest for Barrow for the Archon (revenant) Dwelling.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #252189

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m ok with that.

    #252202

    Zaskow
    Member

    Other Dwellings do not come with a Healer, though of course they have natural healing, but Heal Undead is superior heal and LRU is also pretty good (though on medal).

    Nagas don’t need healing at all with their regrowth.

    Of course it works better for Necro, that’s beyond question, but you don’t really need it when you play Necro actually. It can be quite useful when you play another class and you play Evil, e.g. AD to get a T4 that you can produce.

    Necro hasn’t producible T4 too.

    Buidling chain for Wraith King would be cheaper. But if you want to build Wraith King AND Titan, it would be more expensive. Linking Charnel House and Graveyard to other buildings is not going to make the Archon Dwelling more attractive, rather the opposite.

    If you have access to Titan you won’t build any unit except Titan.

    AD also has Poison Domain, Nature’s Eyes, Throne Hedge Walls that would all work on Dwelling

    Thorn Hedge Walls won’t work because combat map for dwellings hasn’t walls obviously.

    That’s an option. Another would be to have 1 building give a “healing aura for undeads” (name wanted) to all allied Undead in the domain: they would heal 6 HP/turn while in domain. That way, no need for Necro or Caster.

    Could work. This superior healing makes archons useful for everyone. We can even to limit this healing only to archons.

    EDIT: @zaskow: in the Merfolk Dwelling, the buildings unlocking Supports like Mermaid or Siren do not give mana. I don’t see why a building unlocking a Support should generate mana, like you suggest for Barrow for the Archon (revenant) Dwelling.

    If you’re going to use Merfolks as example of good and logical structure build chains, I’ll disappoint you. Merfolk is poor dwelling with only 1 (or maybe 2) useful unit at all and mediocre bonuses which comes too late.

    #253327

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Any idea to rework the remaining Dwellings?
    For Naga, I think building cost decrease are probably sufficient as I’m under the impression that he building chain is currently OK (though I never went as far as Matriarch or Glutton).
    For Merfolk, I’ve never controlled one really but I feel like the buildings are a bit too good already! (a lot of resource generation)
    The Dragon Dwelling probably needs no change, or maybe only to the defensive building, to bring costs in line with other Dwelling after boosts.

    #253385

    NINJEW
    Member

    the archons are theoretically really useful as a sorcerer to be honest. since wraiths and warith-kings are considered supports, a sorcerer controlled wraith king is a 60% physical resist, life stealing, stunning, phasing monstrosity (that can be healed by apprentices too!). it’s not a play that i’ve ever actually seen happen, mind you, but it’s maybe something to keep in mind.

    of the non-t4 dwelling untis that i see built, i’d say ogres are definitely top of the chain there (them and fairies, which i’ll detail next paragraph). for relatively little investment, you’re able to 2turn a 21 damage, 66 hp unit. sure, they’re not the best t3 around, but all you need to get them is a giant dwelling and a 150 gold investment in the burrow, and despite having nothing fancy 21 damage is still like having a speeding train slam into you. plus, as monsters, an AD player can slap on a bunch of extra buffs onto them too. meanwhile, the giants themselves are rather lackluster t4s that require 8-10 turns and 610 gold to even start producing. ogres are a pretty good value proposition, and honestly about where i’d say dwelling units should be, given the placement of dwellings on the map and their lack of income. they’re a unit that is cheap to access once you gain control of the dwelling, and they’re pretty decent. if you lose the giant dwelling, well no big deal you only invested 150 gold into that thing anyway (will definitely happen since you don’t get walls and it’s in the center of the map)

    fairies, meanwhile, i’d generally seen sworn-by as the best dwelling. for a 150 gold investment (the same as ogres), you get to 2turn (or 1turn if there’s any production nodes in the dwelling domain!) a 3/3/3 ranged unit with bard skills. obviously not great for, say, sorcerers, who get access to apprentices anyway, but for a warlord? that kind of cheap, powerful ranged damage is amazing during the berserker-rush phase of the game, and the morale boost from bard skills just makes them all the more enticing.

    i think the t4 focused meta is more to blame for the lack of use of these units, rather than anything to do with the units themselves, honestly. fairies are somewhat hurt by the fact that dwellings get pretty strong garrisons, and thus gaining access is hard, but also fey dwellings have the weakest defenders of all the dwellings, and also are guarded mostly by units that do poorly against physical, melee-focused armies (i.e. the armies with the most to gain from conquering them).

    but t2-level combat just plain doesn’t happen often under the cityspam meta, and that’s where these units shine the best, so.

    #253391

    Gloweye
    Member

    If you have access to Titan you won’t build any unit except Titan.

    There’s loads of moments wraith kings are better. My favorite is Necromancer, which gives them Heal Undead. Other support enhancing classes are decent to, with sorcs giving projectile resistance complimenting their life steal and inflict stun. Theocrat a bit less, but giving them healing and an additional medal on creation makes them pretty decent to.

    But I think there should be a cheap way to heal undead to make the archon dwelling strong. Right now, you need the caster to be able to use lower level archons. The archer and infantry are plenty strong for T1’s. The 6 HP domain heal would be great, could be like 25 gold/25 mana, and leading to the caster building which could be like 50 gold 50 mana.

    For the merfolk dwelling, I think mermaids are to hard to get for how useless they are. Sirens are just so much better. They should be a single building, probably sub-100 gold. Being water-bound is so much of a disadvantage. I think the dwelling should also probably enable Kraken production. They’re still waterbound, and I think that that more than makes up for having 2 T4’s.

    Another idea could be a structure giving all units in this dwelling Fast Healing.

    Naga are in a fine place. I always try to get them, either for pikes or matriarchs. Gluttons are nice as well, tho there’s a good pricetag attached.

    Fey dwelling I think could use a hand. Nymphs are still weak in melee, and still just walking seducers. That’s fine, but kind of….one trick pony. Dangerous, but to weak to do anything else if they fail it. (which is why succubi are so strong – they can fight there way out of a pickle if it fails.). I think it might be a good idea to give them strength effects to seduce on medals. IIRC they were added to the mod tools in a patch ? I haven’t tested them.

    Another ability would perhaps be an idea as well for them. Could be an Entrancing Touch or something, which basically is the same as Petrifying Touch. Perhaps add it on medal.

    I think Nymph Pond and Unicorn Glade should be available from the start. Not having a building to follow them up with is enough of a disadvantage.

    I also think I’d like a throwback to AoW1, and give Unicorns Healing on Elite.

    Giants and dragons are…kind of odd. Basically T4-rush dwellings. Not really an idea for those.

    #253393

    Zaskow
    Member

    My favorite is Necromancer, which gives them Heal Undead.

    Necro ISN’T a problem. Living classes are real problem.

    I also think I’d like a throwback to AoW1, and give Unicorns Healing on Elite.

    Good idea.

    #253397

    Gloweye
    Member

    My favorite is Necromancer, which gives them Heal Undead.

    Necro ISN’T a problem. Living classes are real problem.

    Point was, there’s three classes where they’re arguably better than titans.

    #253439

    NINJEW
    Member

    Point was, there’s three classes where they’re arguably better than titans.

    don’t forget that AD gives them extra movement too.

    wraiths being melee-units with the support tag is a pretty unique and interesting situation, to my knowledge only shared by the frostling ice queen. i think if any changes are made, that part of them should be preserved, as it’s currently the only reason why i’d personally ever consider using them.

    #253477

    Draxynnic
    Member

    There’s also the fact that wraith kings are more mobile than titans, and can heal off some enemy units. Titans certainly make good bruisers if you can keep their health up, but I wouldn’t say it’s a no-brainer for every class.

    #253580

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ok so if I summed up the ideas since my last summary:
    f.3/ Chamber of Rite (Archon Revenant Dwelling) gives Heal Undead to all Supports in the domain
    f.4/ Obelisk of Undeath (Archon Revenant Dwelling) gives all Undead in the domain Undeath Aura, which heal them 6 HP / strategic turn. Obelisk of Undeath requires Sigil of Awakening and contributes to unlocking Chamber of the Rite (which also requires the Barrow)

    d.3/ Nymphs get +1 strength on Seduce and Befriend Animal on Elite
    d.4/ Unicorns get Healing on Elite

    For the Naga Dwelling, the costs are currently:
    – T1 building: 50 gold, 25 mana
    – T2 buildings (2 necessary to unlock the T3 building): 75 gold and 50 mana x 2 = 150 gold and 100 mana
    – T3 building: 150 gold and 75 mana (cumulative = 350 gold and 200 mana)
    – T4 building: 300 gold and 50 mana (cumulative = 650 gold and 250 mana)
    That compares with 750 gold and 125 mana to unlock a Fire Dragon for instance. And 200 gold and 300 mana just to unlock a T4 building for a Theocrat. So I guess the building costs of the Naga Dwellings are ok? The only change I would make would be to decrease slightly the T2 building costs and increase the T3 building cost, e.g. -10 gold on each and +20 gold on the T3. That would move them in the direction of the cost of a War Hall (though still far).

    For the Merfolk, what terrain do they like? Their base Production is 70 but do they get more thanks to Morale usually? Because their T1 buildings cost 75 so that makes a big difference.
    Gloweye suggested (if I understood correctly?) to unlock the Mermaids with the Baby Kraken building. I’m not fully convinced or we should at least report the cost of the Mermaid building to the Abyssal Ridge, which unlocks the Lord of the Deep. I also don’t think allowing the production of Kraken is necessary. It’s already fun to get them through Evolve. Similarly, I’m not sure they need another “domain buff” building as they already have something to remove the Embark penalty so why add Fast Healing?
    The current cost to get a Lord of the Deap are 50+25+100+80+150 = 405 gold and 25+50+100+120+200 = 495 mana, more or less the same gold+mana total as Dragons but with much more mana.
    One improvement I see would be to allow the construction of Mermaid’s Cove from the start, and put the Deep Sea Trench as a direct requirement to the Abyssal Ridge (in addition to the Siren’s Rock).

    #253582

    Gloweye
    Member

    Similarly, I’m not sure they need another “domain buff” building as they already have something to remove the Embark penalty so why add Fast Healing?

    There’s no waterbound supports. I wasn’t suggesting a domain building, but a upgrade to build units. Much like MCU’s, but without required resource site.

    I didn’t make a suggestion for what structure to unlock the mermaid, but the short version is that I think it should be as easy to unlock as a T1 unit. They’re just a waterbound nymph, and therefore weaker.

    #253591

    NINJEW
    Member

    i don’t think you’re going to see much change to dwelling unit use by shuffling some +20 and -10 gold costs around. to be honest, if you want to change the dwelling situation they probably require a pretty big rebalance. the map situation is a pretty big pressure, and you’re not going to overcome that with minor cost adjustments.

    #253602

    Hiliadan
    Member

    i don’t think you’re going to see much change to dwelling unit use by shuffling some +20 and -10 gold costs around

    The Naga Dwelling is already used and is broadly in line with the boosts we brought to other Dwelling, that’s why I don’t think a bigger boost is necessary. If we provided a bigger cost decrease or overhaul, that would probably make it OP and over-used.

    #253801

    My reason not to use dwelling units is that they take way to long to come online, and besides the fairys/dragons I don’t think the investment is worth, especially since defending a dwelling is twice as hard. Maybe making all buildings cost a bit less on dwellings, so you can unlock the units faster after you capture a dwelling? Other than some buffs for some key units that you guys already suggested.

    #253814

    Hiliadan
    Member

    So I guess the building costs of the Naga Dwellings are ok? The only change I would make would be to decrease slightly the T2 building costs and increase the T3 building cost, e.g. -10 gold on each and +20 gold on the T3. That would move them in the direction of the cost of a War Hall (though still far).

    For the Merfolk, what terrain do they like? Their base Production is 70 but do they get more thanks to Morale usually?

    One improvement I see would be to allow the construction of Mermaid’s Cove from the start, and put the Deep Sea Trench as a direct requirement to the Abyssal Ridge (in addition to the Siren’s Rock).

    Opinions on these?
    Also, Gloweye proposes to add a building that would give Fast Healing to units produced in the Dwelling, opinions?

    #253842

    marcuspers1
    Member

    One of the worst things with the dwellings is that they have no buildings when you absorb them, as such it becomes a 3-4 turn mission to get some early units to capably defend the dwelling, unless you leave part of your army for the time being. I would be for to reduce the cost of the buildings, or if its possible to code it that they have a certain amount of buildings at a certain stage of the game. Obviously absorbing a dwelling in turn 10 is very different to turn 40.

    For all of the below:
    d.3/ Nymphs get +1 strength on Seduce and Befriend Animal on Elite

    d.4/ Unicorns get Healing on Elite

    f.1/ increase the income generated by Dwellings to make them more useful to control

    f.2/ make Dwellings targetable by spells that boost cities (and do not affect population) such as Mana Fuel Cell

    f.3/ Chamber of Rite (Archon Revenant Dwelling) gives Heal Undead to all Supports in the domain

    f.4/ Obelisk of Undeath (Archon Revenant Dwelling) gives all Undead in the domain Undeath Aura, which heal them 6 HP / strategic turn. Obelisk of Undeath requires Sigil of Awakening and contributes to unlocking Chamber of the Rite (which also requires the Barrow)

    #253892

    Jean_de_Metz
    Member

    Hello.
    I’ve rarely used dwellings in my games (because of the strategic difficulties already described here by other players) so I don’t have enough experience. Still, I hope, my opinion is helpful here 🙂

    One of the worst things with the dwellings is that they have no buildings when you absorb them, as such it becomes a 3-4 turn mission to get some early units to capably defend the dwelling, unless you leave part of your army for the time being. I would be for to reduce the cost of the buildings, or if its possible to code it that they have a certain amount of buildings at a certain stage of the game.

    I totally agree with Marcus on this point. I have an idea here too but not sure it can be implemented:
    Is it possible to give a player a reward for buying a dwelling? Several predefined low-tier units or 1-2 of higher tier located at the place of the dwelling? It would make it possible to defend the dwelling immediately after absorbing it.

    Now the proposed changes by Hili:
    a2,a3 – for
    d3 – for but, I think, befriend animal on veteran is even better (concearning the timing)
    d4 – healing on veteran
    f1 – for
    f2 – for (let’s also try to make it targetable by Iron Grip?)
    f3,f4 – for

    #254081

    Trube
    Member

    Some really great discussion here on some buildings that need some love, it’s something AoW hasn’t quite done as well as some similar games in adjusting them based on popularity and something I’d like to see a bit more of.

    #256426

    kafsabizarin
    Member

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    #257409

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Just to avoid forgetting the feedback of Zaskow that he posted on another topic:

    F1, F2. For.

    #258888

    Hiliadan
    Member

    For the Merfolks, I checked: they like Wetlands, Water, Subterranean Water and they dislikes: Artic, Blighted, Volcanic. So with their base Production of 70, they actually get 81 Production thanks to the Happy bonus (if Empire Happiness is at 0). So the Deep Sea Trench and Mermaid’s Cove can both be 1-turned.

    Summary of the proposals since my last summary:
    a.4/ Serpent Hall and Viper Fortress cost 65 gold and 50 mana each (was 75 gold and 50 mana) and Altar of the Great Mother costs 170 gold and 75 mana (was 150 gold and 75 mana)

    a.5/ The Mermaid’s Cove can be built without pre-requisite (was: needs Deep Sea Trench). The Abyssal Ridge requires the Siren’s Rock and the Deep Sea Trench (was: needs Siren’s Rock, which needs Mermaid’s Cove, which needs Deep Sea Trench)

    To come back to the Dragon Dwelling
    We proposed to make the Aphrodisiac Flowers (-4 resistance to enemy in domain) much more accessible by moving Nymph Pond (was 150 gold) out of the building chain. Now it would cost 160 for the Fairy Charm (+4 resistance to garrisoned units) and 200 gold for the Aphrodisiac Flowers so 360 gold in total.
    The direct damage defensive buildings of the Dragons cost 150 gold and 50 mana each (+ the associated Burrow at 200-250 gold. I would argue that their effect is weaker than +4 resistance or -4 resistance, and closer to that of a Racial defensive building, which costs half as much! So I suggest to reduce their cost to that of these Racial defensive buildings, i.e. 75 gold and 25 mana, except if someone tells me the battle enchantment is stronger?

    Finally, I think the Giant Dwelling is fine and does not need change.

    I don’t think granting free units when a Dwelling is absorbed is technically possible? Or giving some free buildings if it is absorbed later in the game?

    #258987

    El_Lobo1986
    Member

    a.2 for
    a.3 for

    d.3 against
    d.4 against

    f.1 for
    f.2 for
    f.3 for
    f.4 for

    #259019

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Feedback from Skuns:

    a.2 – for it, good change, I like it
    a.3 – as a start it may be done, for it. But I think it still has too long building chain. May be should also unite Barrow and Haunted Vault (with cost 130 gold 70 mana)? And still what about Chamber of the Rite? Will it still be need to build Barrow first? So, do you think that somebody will build Haunted Vault in that case? Or we can divide Chamber of the Rite and give Undead’s Regeneration to Barrow and all others into Haunted Vault
    a.4 – for it
    a.5 – I don’t know what to say. It’s ridiculous to let a player build T2 unit so cheap (even though it is a water unit).
    d.3, d.4 – for it
    f.1-f.4 – for all of it

    Regarding a.3/ change the building chains and costs for the Archon Revenant Dwelling:
    50 gold (was 100) for the Graveyard – unlocks Infantry
    50 gold (was 100) for the Charnel House – unlocks Archer; total cost of unlocking Infantry and Archer = 100, similar to Barracks
    50 gold and 25 mana (was 50+50) for Sigil of Awakening – gives +10 mana/turn, similar cost (75) to Shrine
    Obelisk of Undeath – gives Cursed to enemy units in domain; what cost decrease?
    Barrow – unlock Caster; add mana bonus or reduce cost?
    Haunted vault needs the same buildings as Barrow (and does not need Barrow any more, as it produces a T2). Its cost is 135 gold and 40 mana (was 160 gold and 40 mana), as War Hall

    The concerns of Skuns are related to what Zaskow was saying earlier in this post. I think we need to keep in mind that 1/ we are unlocking a T3 and a T4 here and it’s normal that it costs a lot and takes a lot of time and 2/ we don’t want the Wraith King and Titan chains to be totally separated, otherwise, as I pointed out earlier on that hread, it would cost too much to be able to build both.
    Regarding 1/, we should recompare the costs with that for a Giant/Dragon:
    It’s 750 gold and 125 mana to unlock a Fire Dragon for instance. And 200 gold and 300 mana just to unlock a T4 building for a Theocrat.
    Here to get the Titan, that would cost:
    Sigil 50/25
    Obelisk 75/25 (I modified a.3 to reduce the cost to 25 mana)
    Barrow 100/40 (I modifed a.3 to reduce the cost to 40 mana)
    Chamber 100/100
    Mausoleum 250/110 (I modifed a.3 to report the -25 and -10 as increases on the Mausoleum)
    Total = 575/300 so 875 in total gold+mana, like for Dragons, but with a higher mana content in the mix. Seems ok. By comparison, the Glutton is at 650 gold and 250 mana.

    Also, we got good support for “f.1/ increase the income generated by Dwellings to make them more useful to control” so now we need to be more specific.
    One option for the Archon Dwelling is to add +10 mana/turn to the Barrow, and increase back its cost.
    Other ideas for other Dwellings?

    For f.2/ make Dwellings targetable by spells that boost cities (and do not affect population) such as Mana Fuel Cell
    What spells should that include?
    Could be: Poison Domain, Summoner’s Aura, Hallowed Domain, Embrace Darkness, Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, Glyph of Warding, Mana Fuel Cell, all the Domains of xx, Dragon Oil, Enchanted Walls, Night Wish, Thorn Edge Walls. (I think we said Enchanted Walls and Thorn Edge Walls should not be in because Dwellings don’t have walls?)
    Fertile Domain and Beacon of Faith are excluded because it affects population.
    Iron Grip and Authority of the Sword should be excluded because too strong.
    What spells did I forget?
    Also, I’m not sure if spells like Sanctified Sites currently affect Dwellings? If not, they probably should be included in this proposal too.

    Also need feedback on these:

    To come back to the Dragon Dwelling…
    We proposed to make the Aphrodisiac Flowers (-4 resistance to enemy in domain) much more accessible by moving Nymph Pond (was 150 gold) out of the building chain. Now it would cost 160 for the Fairy Charm (+4 resistance to garrisoned units) and 200 gold for the Aphrodisiac Flowers so 360 gold in total.
    The direct damage defensive buildings of the Dragons cost 150 gold and 50 mana each (+ the associated Burrow at 200-250 gold. I would argue that their effect is weaker than +4 resistance or -4 resistance, and closer to that of a Racial defensive building, which costs half as much! So I suggest to reduce their cost to that of these Racial defensive buildings, i.e. 75 gold and 25 mana, except if someone tells me the battle enchantment is stronger?

    Finally, I think the Giant Dwelling is fine and does not need change.

    I don’t think granting free units when a Dwelling is absorbed is technically possible? Or giving some free buildings if it is absorbed later in the game?

    #259029

    El_Lobo1986
    Member

    for a.4 and a.5, missed them in my first post

    #269920

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Also, we got good support for “f.1/ increase the income generated by Dwellings to make them more useful to control” so now we need to be more specific.
    One option for the Archon Dwelling is to add +10 mana/turn to the Barrow, and increase back its cost.
    Other ideas for other Dwellings?

    For f.2/ make Dwellings targetable by spells that boost cities (and do not affect population) such as Mana Fuel Cell
    What spells should that include?
    Could be: Poison Domain, Summoner’s Aura, Hallowed Domain, Embrace Darkness, Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, Glyph of Warding, Mana Fuel Cell, all the Domains of xx, Dragon Oil, Enchanted Walls, Night Wish, Thorn Edge Walls. (I think we said Enchanted Walls and Thorn Edge Walls should not be in because Dwellings don’t have walls?)
    Fertile Domain and Beacon of Faith are excluded because it affects population.
    Iron Grip and Authority of the Sword should be excluded because too strong.
    What spells did I forget?
    Also, I’m not sure if spells like Sanctified Sites currently affect Dwellings? If not, they probably should be included in this proposal too.

    Still needing more ideas for f.1/

    For f.2, I added it as GC54:
    Dwellings can now be targeted by the following spells: Poison Domain, Summoner’s Aura, Hallowed Domain, Embrace Darkness, Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, Glyph of Warding, Mana Fuel Cell, all the Domains of xx, Night Wish.

    The direct damage defensive buildings of the Dragons cost 150 gold and 50 mana each (+ the associated Burrow at 200-250 gold. I would argue that their effect is weaker than +4 resistance or -4 resistance, and closer to that of a Racial defensive building, which costs half as much! So I suggest to reduce their cost to that of these Racial defensive buildings, i.e. 75 gold and 25 mana, except if someone tells me the battle enchantment is stronger?

    Adding a.6/ Frost Dragon Ward and Fire Dragon Ward cost 75 gold and 25 mana each (was 150 gold and 50 mana).
    (that’s the 2 defensive building, one deals Fireball each turn, the other Frost Missile)

    By the way, the Gold Dragon’s chain has no defensive building. What about: Golden Dragon Ward, 75 gold and 25 mana, unlocked by Burrow of Gold, In siege defense, a random enemy is struck by a Smite each combat round.
    ?

    #269991

    ddnation22
    Member

    If I were to rebalance lower tier units, in particular dwelling ones, I would start from a pretty basic guideline:

    1. Little bit more Hp on medals in general, to encourage leveling them up and prevent them from being COMPLETELY outclassed by the power spike that many T3s/T4s bring

    2. I would try to add a strong initial ability, as well as an ability at Elite for every single one. There needs to a prize to encourage not only building them, but using them beyond fodder. The T2 racial supports are a great place to look to for inspiration here. For example, the Dracionan Elder and Dwarf Forge Priest not only START with a strong ability, but also level up into Inflict Immo, which is pretty damn solid. I would also try to tailor the abilities to the sort of role the unit is intended to fill.

    For example, the Naga Guardians ingame quotation reads, ‘Though our powers be limited, we will die to protect her. The Matriarch must be protected. If she survives, we all survive. If she dies, we all die. We are her arms. We wield the trident and strike down any who would strike at her.’

    Perhaps a ripoff of the Frostling Absorb pain thingy, that can only target Naga females (Aka matriarch) ? Naga guardian already gains Tireless at elite, which is a fine ability, but maybe he could also use Inflict Bleeding/Crippling wounds or something similar as well? Or at Veteran.

    This is the line of thinking I’d apply to the underused dwelling units. I’d brainstorm session a bit, and then go back and look again with my “Tryhard balancer” lens.

    #269995

    Zaskow
    Member

    Still needing more ideas for f.1/

    Giant Dwelling
    Stone Quarry – add +10 gold income.
    Merfolk Dwelling
    Kelp Forest, Anemone Oasis, Basin of Wisdom can be built from start.

    Perhaps a ripoff of the Frostling Absorb pain thingy, that can only target Naga females (Aka matriarch) ?

    I like this idea.

    Other suggestions
    My main idea was to give strong defensive buildings for dwellings which let you to defend them with minimal garrison.
    Or alternative idea: ‘Call to Arms’ spell connected to some building and which summon units (dwellers) from this dwelling every round.
    Dragon Dwelling
    Building tree is pretty messed up. Wyverns for 200 gold each? Hell, no. In this case I’d never build wyverns, I’ll wait for dragons.
    I suggest to decrease price for all wyvern barrows – to 75 gold each, but they don’t lead directly to dragon lairs. All of them leads to Incubation Chamber which leads to all dragon lairs. Also Incubation Chamber could provide some more noticeable bonuses – 2 medals instead of 1, HP bonus for wyverns, whatever.
    Defensive buildings should cost 75g + 25m as suggested by Hiliadan.
    Orb of the First Age (200 gold) gives True Sight and Giant Slayer. What a crap.
    If this building gives vision buff, then what about much bigger visible range of dwelling and maybe some additional domain radius?
    Also about Golden Dragon. This unit is best T4, but its price is inadequate. Reduce cost of unit and building both. Building should cost same as others and unit can get price 380g + 50m. Don’t forget that Golden Dragon has Good Alignment and this make it unusable for evil and neutral leaders.
    Giant Dwelling
    Rock of Ages is piece of overpriced crap. Who does ever buy this building? Give it +2 medals for example?
    Fangir’s Stone Ward – give it Mass Stoning as defensive spell and cost is 150 gold.
    Fey Dwelling
    Aphrodisiac Flowers and Fairy Charm are just too bad defensive structures for its price.
    Fairy Charm could give Lucky in addition and drop price to 100.
    Aphrodisiac Flowers could inflict random Seduce on a few enemy units every round.
    Merfolk Dwelling
    Whispering Rocks – new cost 50g + 50m. Additional moral debuffs for enemies (-200-300) and price 70g + 50m.
    Seagrass Meadow – new defensive function: slow down enemy units.
    Treacherous Cliffs – new defensive function: movement debuff for Embarked and Boat units.

    #270024

    gladis
    Member

    I will list the proposals and ideas of the last three Posts and give opinion/own ideas:

    “f.1/ increase the income generated by Dwellings to make them more useful to control” so now we need to be more specific.
    One option for the Archon Dwelling is to add +10 mana/turn to the Barrow, and increase back its cost.
    – For me it seems there are hardly sites in the Domain of Dwellings (except Merfolk?) If that´s the case, it could be a solution to add sites to their domains to get more income.
    – The idea of increasing the price and reward is fine form e. This way, you can decide whether you want to make it an economy-based dwelling or go for a unit-building spam (= more significant difference, theroefore more tactical options)
    For f.2/ GC54: make Dwellings targetable by spells that boost cities (and do not affect population) such as Mana Fuel Cell
    – Fine for me. Sanctified Sites should be included as well but it may not have such a big influence. Iron Grip and Authority of the Sword should be excluded, though
    Adding a.6/ Frost Dragon Ward and Fire Dragon Ward cost 75 gold and 25 mana each (was 150 gold and 50 mana).
    – For
    By the way, the Gold Dragon’s chain has no defensive building. What about: Golden Dragon Ward, 75 gold and 25 mana, unlocked by Burrow of Gold, In siege defense, a random enemy is struck by a Smite each combat round.
    – For

    Proposals of ddnation22:
    1. Little bit more Hp on medals in general, to encourage leveling them up and prevent them from being COMPLETELY outclassed by the power spike that many T3s/T4s bring
    – For (they should get +3 HP per level and +6 at gold instead of 2/4) it is only a very tiny improvement ofc

    2. I would try to add a strong initial ability, as well as an ability at Elite for every single one. There needs to a prize to encourage not only building them, but using them beyond fodder. The T2 racial supports are a great place to look to for inspiration here. For example, the Dracionan Elder and Dwarf Forge Priest not only START with a strong ability, but also level up into Inflict Immo, which is pretty damn solid. I would also try to tailor the abilities to the sort of role the unit is intended to fill.
    – For me no further initial abilities for T1, but I once had the idea of giving Racial (Infantry, Archers and Pikemen) some „captain abilities“ on gold which buffs all units of his kind in combat. For example, an elite Human Longswordsman can cast a spell, which affects all Human Longswordmen and could give them „Charge Command“. It could work like Cardinal Culling (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Grey_Guard) that affects units of the same kind.
    This way a mass production of the T1 would make more sense and it is logical as well (they should be the main forces of your Empire :P)
    – Nagas are not a big problem for me as they already ar quite strong. Good idea of givng the Guards Absorbing Pain though. Maybe it should require an extra building? Slithers coul get Shadow step etc. to make them more deadly.

    Zaskows proposals:
    Defensive Buildings
    My main idea was to give strong defensive buildings for dwellings which let you to defend them with minimal garrison.
    – This could be a good solution
    Or alternative idea: ‘Call to Arms’ spell connected to some building and which summon units (dwellers) from this dwelling every round.
    – Very strong and impossible to disjunc this way(?). Maybe too strong because if they are released to Vassals, they have already strong defenders. When you put a unit beside, your opponents have to fight automatic, so they would probably never have a chance to win the battle.

    Giant Dwelling
    Stone Quarry – add +10 gold income.
    – For
    Rock of Ages is piece of overpriced crap. Who does ever buy this building? Give it +2 medals for example?
    – Yes, right now it is crap, but 2 medals are too strong.
    Fangir’s Stone Ward – give it Mass Stoning as defensive spell and cost is 150 gold.
    – Not sure, is Mass Stoning Similar to Great Hail?

    Merfolk Dwelling
    Kelp Forest, Anemone Oasis, Basin of Wisdom can be built from start.
    – Yes, I think their economy is already very strong and they have some sites in their domain as well
    Whispering Rocks – new cost 50g + 50m. Additional moral debuffs for enemies (-200-300) and price 70g + 50m.
    – For, but not more than -200 Morale
    Seagrass Meadow – new defensive function: slow down enemy units.
    – Nice idea! You could say that the Grass has some intellignce: It carrys the freindling units, but slows down enemys like Twisting Roots. I can´t find it in the Wiki btw: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Merfolk#Whispering_Rocks
    Treacherous Cliffs – new defensive function: movement debuff for Embarked and Boat units.
    – No need for me 

    Dragon Dwelling
    Building tree is pretty messed up. Wyverns for 200 gold each? Hell, no. In this case I’d never build wyverns, I’ll wait for dragons.
    I suggest to decrease price for all wyvern barrows – to 75 gold each, but they don’t lead directly to dragon lairs.
    – It should cost at least 125 In total, because most War Halls cost 175 Gold
    All of them leads to Incubation Chamber which leads to all dragon lairs. Also Incubation Chamber could provide some more noticeable bonuses – 2 medals instead of 1, HP bonus for wyverns, whatever.
    – I think Wyverns are already fine, I wouldn´t buff them
    Orb of the First Age (200 gold) gives True Sight and Giant Slayer. What a crap.
    If this building gives vision buff, then what about much bigger visible range of dwelling and maybe some additional domain radius?
    – I would decrease the cost to ~125 and give an additional buff like Fast Healing.

    Also about Golden Dragon. This unit is best T4, but its price is inadequate. Reduce cost of unit and building both. Building should cost same as others and unit can get price 380g + 50m. Don’t forget that Golden Dragon has Good Alignment and this make it unusable for evil and neutral leaders.
    – Assuming the Dwelling is happy (it´s late game and you should have Wealthy Empire?), it has 70 PP x 1,15 = 81 PP. So a Gold Dragon takes 7 turns to build which is very long.
    A small decrase of the costs from 500 to 430-450 would result in 6 turns and I would give this a FOR
    Btw as the Fire Dragon costs 410 in total, he would need 6 turns as well. The Frost Dragon would be under that „boarder“ of 405 PP and would need only 5 turns!

    Fey Dwelling
    Aphrodisiac Flowers and Fairy Charm are just too bad defensive structures for its price.
    – Well, it depends how big the battle is. On a massive battle, they have a great influence. So maybe you just shouldn´t build them in early game. Maybe it is better not to make all Dwellings „similar“ in terms of Building tree/philosophy. If you are in control of a Fey Dwelling, it could be interesting to build Unicorns as quick as possible, to assist your cavalry. Or building cheap feys if you want floating units
    Fairy Charm could give Lucky in addition and drop price to 100.
    – Maybe give High Morale instead, Price see above
    Aphrodisiac Flowers could inflict random Seduce on a few enemy units every round.
    – Very strong in big battles already, because Feys can take very good advantage of weak resistance.

    /gladis

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