Mammoth rider: cavalry / hero or t-3?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Mammoth rider: cavalry / hero or t-3?

This topic contains 36 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Seamus the Bold 7 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #138160

    11balanced11
    Member

    Dear collegues! 🙂

    Preamble: frostlings were my 2nd favotite race since AoW-1; mammoth rider – one of the most juicy units. So I’m really happy to see them all coming back and I really loved the graphics presented in last development journal.

    But! Making mammoth rider t-2 cavalry is kind of strange decision if not a wrong one. It doesn’t look like low tier cavalry at all! It should be a mighty t-3 unit which it looks like. Single huge figure, wall crushing – that’s not for t-2 cavalry. Moreover, imagine mammoth as a hero mount. At lest two evident problems here:

    1. It’s MUCH bigger and stronger, than all other mounts.
    2. t-2 cavalry with one figure will look very similar to hero.

    So I’d suggest to rethink that idea somehow – why you devs should give up good old white wolves? Or may it be reindeers?

    #138161

    I was surprised too, but I like it.

    They won’t work like the other Cavalry, and I imagine/hope they’ll be really expensive. Right now 100 gold is the highest priced Cavalry, so if these were 120 or 130, then they would be exceedingly rare.

    Also, they might not get armoured, or have high resistance, so basically have:

    high damage
    high hp
    low defence
    low resistance

    in which case they’ll suffer from many of the Orc problems.

    Being able to crush walls will be nice, but the other Frostling units get frost damage, these guys don’t.

    They could also end up being considerably slower.

    Lastly, as a hero mount, I think they’d be awesome.

    #138162

    Garresh
    Member

    I have this weird idea they’re gonna have like 28 movement, and only be able to move 36 when they devastating charge. But they’ll probably have like 60 hp or something ridiculous.

    #138163

    Gloweye
    Member

    60 HP isn’t that much for cavalry, currently orc have that, and I personally think the Mammoth deserves more.

    #138170

    ESCL
    Member

    Ah, well I must admitt that I was surprised too. But not disappointed, since it’s only one model per unit, compared to the other races’ three, I believe it looks good. Sue, AoW3 will always be weird in the way that losing models in your units doesn’t hurt their damage output – though only for logical reasons and it’s not something I’d like to see changed.

    And of course I’d like it as a hero mount, but maybe not the basic one. Can’t have too many mounts – still waiting for the great eagle, carrion bird and elephant.

    #138172

    vota dc
    Member

    They will have 70, little more than elephant that have 60+ (don’t remember exact number) because the rider and also the polearm weakness.
    But frostling mounted archer will have very low range damage because only one rider instead of three?

    #138173

    Well, adding a High Elf Swordsman to a gryphon resulted in 17 extra hp (48 to 65), so applying a bit less than that (since it is a tier 2 type guy, not a super elite one) you get 67 starting hp, maybe 75?

    If they keep the stats with roughly the same conversion as the gryphon to gryphon rider (the rider adds some resistance, but no defense), you would probably get something like 10 defense and 9 resistance, but bonko damage (since you get the elephant and the frost lance).

    This is assuming that defense/resistance purposes regard a mammoth as merely a hairy elephant.

    #138189

    LordCameron
    Member

    Keep in mind that in the comments one of the devs stated that they were showing the “low tier units”. As in the social status of the units, not necessarily strength. The Mammoth Rider may still be tier three, just low in the pecking order.

    #138201

    @ LordCameron, the journal was about the “core” Frostling units, and my impression was this was most definitely the racial Cavalry.

    #138205

    Draxynnic
    Member

    “Today however, we’ll take a look at the main Frostling army – the footsoldiers, archers and cavalry – who have stayed quite similar to ages past, wearing thick fur to protect themselves against the biting cold and relying on their experience in hunting and their magical weapons to deal damage.”

    Seems indicative to me, although it could be that they’re using ‘cavalry’ to simply represent that it is of the cavalry type, rather than filling the cavalry slot. Either way, we’ll probably find out next Friday.

    #138210

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Keep in mind that in the comments one of the devs stated that they were showing the “low tier units”. As in the social status of the units, not necessarily strength. The Mammoth Rider may still be tier three, just low in the pecking order.

    This.

    It’s not clear at all that the Mammoth Rider is a T2.

    #138213

    Ravenholme
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>LordCameron wrote:</div>
    Keep in mind that in the comments one of the devs stated that they were showing the “low tier units”. As in the social status of the units, not necessarily strength. The Mammoth Rider may still be tier three, just low in the pecking order.

    This.

    It’s not clear at all that the Mammoth Rider is a T2.

    I suspect it will be labelled as a T2, as it certainly seems to be their racial cavalry unit from the War Hall, but I have a strong suspicion that it will be effectively T2.5 in strength, given the new drive to diversify the races (which is extending backwards to the Old races with the addition of things like War Cry, Defensive Strike and the addition of Goblin Butchers)

    #138214

    Then why skip the Cavalry slot to bring in the T3 unit?

    That seems to me that it would be very sloppy.

    EDIT: Especially when it seems the T3 unit is chariot using FrostQueens, that can be evolved from Frostwitches.

    Seems to me that it is the same basic relation as exists between Initiates and Storm Sisters, but moved up a tier. That would also make the FrostQueens tier 3 support (again, the principle already exists in the form of the Naga)

    If that is the case it will make things very interesting because the payoff for going Support is higher than it is for other races (imagine a Theocrat with a T3 Healer) but Support units are usually slow and squishy (having a Chariot would make the Queens faster presumably) and you can’t build an army with just them, so you require other units to build an army around them.

    #138216

    Thariorn
    Member

    But Narvek literally said, that the Harpooner, Raider and Mammoth Rider are the lower caste units of Frostling Society.

    A Frost Queen may be weaker than a Mammoth Rider, thus being T2, but in the matriarchial society of the Frostligns, they’re much higher up in the socieal caste (Rather they’re the Appex apart from the Leader).

    E.g., Frost Queens could be the Frostling T2 Cav, with magical properties instead of traditional warfare skills the other racial cavs embody.

    About the ‘higher level units’: it’s about their role in Frostling society. Today it was the footsoldiers, the basic army as it were, and Frostlings higher up on their social ladder will come later ^^

    #138221

    “Today however, we’ll take a look at the main Frostling army – the footsoldiers, archers and cavalry – ”

    “Today we take a look at the first two Frostling Units, the Icescaper and the Frost Witch”

    That gives us 5 units out of 7, with a question mark over whether or not there will even be a “Pike” unit.

    I’m not sure where the idea that the Frostwitches = Cavalry comes from!

    #138224

    Thariorn
    Member

    I’m not sure where the idea that the Frostwitches = Cavalry comes from!

    I’m talking about the Frost Queens here.

    All I’m saying is, that the calssic T2 Cav spot may be more a special ops spot for the Frostlings, fit Frost Queens get that one.
    Afterall, the Bettle Rider/Knights/Griphon Rider are considered Cavalry too, yet they’re T3s too.

    And as said, social rank =/= military rank

    #138226

    Mammoths are t2, low tier is referring to the units’ “tech level”, they are a “core” unit. Chariot Riding Queens will be t3. I don’t understand why’d there be so much confusion about this.

    #138236

    ahh Thariorn, but both dev journals together show that the Cavalry is the Mammoth.

    As I see it, there is only one question really:

    1 – As Harpoons get polearm (but presumably not pike square) they work as anti-cav, so will there be a dedicate Pike unit, and if not, then what takes this position?

    I’m betting they get a very weak T2 flier, 32 mp flying, fragile, Ice wyvern rider.

    That would make them very unique amongst the races, and really fit in with their Raider theme.

    It would also leave them pretty vulnerable to actual Pike units, as their cavalry would presumably be less massable than everyone else’s, and also ranged units, as, again presumably, their Harpoons wouldn’t as good at being ranged as other races (to make up for being able to hurt Cavalry).

    I haven’t seen armour on any of these units, so that could be another weakness.

    It seems like they will be better at sneak attacks and raiding fortified posititions, but in a “normal” fight they will be hard countered by high resistance units, to nullify their frost damage.

    Theocrats should be a good challenge then.

    I imagine they’ll be good at fighting Dreadnoughts, but massed Musketeers might be an issue.

    I’m thinking I should post this in the dev journal thread lol.

    #138251

    UltraDD
    Member

    But Narvek said “About the ‘higher level units’: it’s about their role in Frostling society. Today it was the footsoldiers, the basic army as it were, and Frostlings higher up on their social ladder will come later ^^”

    This just debunks what tiers the units fall in. The tier is basically how advanced a city needs to be to have these units and their survival needs (Although a mammoth probably needs more food than a few horses :P).

    I really wish mounted archers had more variety in abilities than currently, Unbalance alarms :
    1)Elf Mounted : Loses longbow but gets phase instead and costs more mana to produce. This makes longbowmen better at defense than horses but these fit perfectly in attacks instead of sitting behind while normal unicorn riders charge in.

    2)Orc : Has -2 ranged damage but carries a scimitar instead of the horse kicking people.. Deals +3 damage against unmounted units with melee attacks. (Lol I think am trying to make them compliment the race cavalary)

    3)Goblins\Halflings : -1 to both damage channels and -5 hp, but gains crippling shots.

    4)Human and dwarves : +6 hp +1 damage but cost +15 gold\+5 mana.

    #138252

    cosa65
    Member

    why is everyone so sure there will be a t3 chariot unit? was it mentioned in a dev journal or something?

    #138260

    why is everyone so sure there will be a t3 chariot unit? was it mentioned in a dev journal or something?

    chariot riding frost queens are mentioned in the first dev journal, and it says that frost witches can become frost queens. So it has been heavily implied.

    #138268

    cosa65
    Member

    ooh ok, sorry 🙂

    #138269

    cosa65
    Member

    ooh ok, thanks! 🙂

    #138323

    NuMetal
    Member

    But frostling mounted archer will have very low range damage because only one rider instead of three?

    This is actually a really good question!
    I imagine they’ll either not ride Mammoths but these ice Wargs (forgot how they are called) or that they’ll also have only one unit instead of three and that it’ll get the weaker ranged attack with a chance to freeze its targets and improved health and melee attack and wallcrushing. Would make for a really interesting unit!

    #138330

    I know precisely what the Mammoth Riders are going to be:
    DEAD. WHEN I KILL THEM ALL!

    As UltraDD said, each of the racial mount really do need some asymmtery. I mean we really don’t need another mount unit that pretty much does the same thing.

    #138339

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Mammoth Riders are the tier 2 cavalry of the Frostlings.

    #138342

    Mammoth Riders are the tier 2 cavalry of the Frostlings.

    And that is the end of that!

    #138348

    vota dc
    Member

    Mammoth Riders are the tier 2 cavalry of the Frostlings.

    Well done, we had already a race that ride wargs (Goblin) and with warg as a standard T2 cavalry we would as many warg riders as horse riders: 2 horse (human and orcs), 1 unicorn (elves), 1 pony (halflings), 1 raptor (draconians), 1 boar (dwarves) and 1 warg (goblin)….with frostling would be 2! Now we can say that horse is the most common mount as is supposed to be.

    #138525

    11balanced11
    Member

    Mammoth Riders are the tier 2 cavalry of the Frostlings.

    I regret if that’s a final decision 🙁 Hopefully somewhen we would be able to mod it out and make mammoth rider t-3. Like in AoW-SM I boosted up nomad elephant rider to t-3 because it looked quite comparable to t-3 mammoth rider and much more powerful than most of t-2s.

    But what about heroes? Aren’t you confused seeing a hero riding pony fighting another one on mammoth? For me it’s way too much of ‘asymmetry’.

    #138551

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    Anyone seen what the Frostling hero mounts look like (aside from the developers)?

    Just like halfling heroes ride ponies(?), maybe the frostling heroes will use mammoths rather than horses. Thematically it would be strange to see them riding horses since it’s hard to raise animals like that in the frozen wastes.

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