Massed True Sight negates stealth and concealment gameplay

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Massed True Sight negates stealth and concealment gameplay

This topic contains 65 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Hiliadan 3 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 66 total)
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  • #197482

    Zaskow
    Member

    Greetings!

    We saw numerous threads about useless stealth, for example:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/invisibility-doesnt-work-against-independents-and-enemy-ai/
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/roguish-discussions/
    I think everyone agrees that this fact negates a lot of interesting tactics and hurts of gameplay for Rogue class relied on concealments very much. I don’t remind about AI cheating.
    I tried to find out why we have such problem. Answer is obvious – True sight. True sight everywhere, actually. When you attack with your stacks at least 2-3 units with true sight present. This thing negates any possibility of making decent ambushes.

    My proposed nerf is obvious and easy to do. Just remove True sight from some units and move True sight from recruit to elite for some units. I think this change doesn’t make big lore problems.
    Take a look. List of units with True sight and my suggestions for nerfing:
    http://aow3db.tumblr.com/search/-true+sight

    Elder Eldritch – okish, coz he’s very specific unit;
    Eldritch Horror – True sight on Expert;
    Phantasm warrior – delete completely;
    Wisp – okish, True sight on elite;
    Dread Reaper – True sight on Veteran/Expert;
    Kraken – True sight on Veteran/Expert;
    Angels – okish, because specialization units appear not very often;
    Feathered serpent – True sight on Expert;
    Dragons – left as is;
    Phoenix – left as is;
    Mermaid – True sight on Expert;
    Siren – left as is;
    Naga Matriarch – True sight on Veteran/Expert;
    Nightshade Fairy – left as is;
    Frost wyvern – True sight on Expert;
    Gold wyvern – True sight on Expert;
    Wraith – delete completely;
    Wraith king – left as is;
    Cherub – okish, True sight on veteran;
    Evangelists – True sight on Expert;
    Apprentices – True sight on Expert;
    Watcher – left as is;
    Grimbeak crows – okish, True sight on elite;
    Bards – True sight on Expert;
    Succubus – True sight on Expert;
    Reanimators – True sight on Elite;
    Spy drone – okish, True sight on elite;
    Shamans – True sight on Expert;
    Sphinx – True sight on Expert;
    All racial supports – True sight on Elite;
    Ice queen – True sight on Expert.

    I suppose a lot of people complain that from lore many units MUST have True sight. Yes, they must, but not from beginning. This can be explained that True sight is difficult discipline for learning and only best casters and sorcerers can handle it easily.

    So, let’s discuss…

    #197486

    GeorgiSR
    Member

    So, let’s discuss…

    Plain simple NO.

    #197489

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Disagree with the OP: I find True Sight reasonable on most of those units.

    #197490

    Zaskow
    Member

    Plain simple NO.

    Good luck with making ambushes then…

    Disagree with the OP: I find True Sight reasonable on most of those units.

    I suggest moving True Sight, not deleting in most cases. Early true sight cancels stealth gameplay. Especially in MP.

    #197499

    I could see the Kraken and feathered serpent losing it, maybe.

    However, out of those units listed, which aren’t very many actually relative to what’s in the game, how many of those are non Support units?

    Outside of Support units, unless you are facing a Sorceror, you won’t have to deal with most of the units on this list.

    Your proposals would result in a net Sorceror and Support unit nerf, without any proposed changes to balance them out.

    #197505

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I could see the Kraken and feathered serpent losing it, maybe.

    However, out of those units listed, which aren’t very many actually relative to what’s in the game, how many of those are non Support units?

    Outside of Support units, unless you are facing a Sorceror, you won’t have to deal with most of the units on this list.

    Your proposals would result in a net Sorceror and Support unit nerf, without any proposed changes to balance them out.

    I agree with all this; and Kraken was the ONLY case where I think it should be removed (Feathered Serpent might be based the Meso-American serpent god).

    #197515

    CSav10
    Member

    TBH there is a large part of me that agrees with the TO that stealth is weak in many situations. It is a fair hit on the sorcerer, but as far as true sight goes it still does have a lot of units. Most of the units mentioned still get true-sight at some point so I don’t see this as a gamebreaking change, but either way I won’t lose sleep if it doesn’t.

    #197516

    Zaskow
    Member

    Outside of Support units, unless you are facing a Sorceror, you won’t have to deal with most of the units on this list.

    Sorc has True sight on most of his summon and class units. This leads to uselessness of concealment vs. sorc.
    Also in MP everyone uses supports.

    Your proposals would result in a net Sorceror and Support unit nerf, without any proposed changes to balance them out.

    Actually, if you look at list carefully proposed nerfs inflict ALL class supports.
    Only 2 classes in game could rely on stealth a lot. True sight is very common and this fact depreciates it very much. Also this is pure strategic ability. Really, you have no need to care that all your armies must have unit able to see stealth units.
    Also if you care about balance so much try to suggest anything that could save currently useless stealth in game.

    #197535

    madmac
    Member

    First of all, I could not disagree more with the proposition that stealth is in any way useless or underpowered. I’m at a loss for words, honestly.

    #197542

    NINJEW
    Member

    The big advantage of stealth is less sniping armies and more sniping cities, so I don’t think True Sight really matters a ton in that sense.

    #197547

    Zaskow
    Member

    First of all, I could not disagree more with the proposition that stealth is in any way useless or underpowered. I’m at a loss for words, honestly.

    Stealth isn’t useless, stealth is easy cancelable.

    The big advantage of stealth is less sniping armies and more sniping cities, so I don’t think True Sight really matters a ton in that sense.

    Not really. You always get a notice when your city domain trespassed. You can move your defending army or build more troops.

    #197554

    NINJEW
    Member

    Not really. You always get a notice when your city domain trespassed. You can move your defending army or build more troops.

    I mean the sense of hiding your units from scouts, then bumrushing the city when you know the enemy army isn’t around. Also, you should be keeping your units a hex or two out of domain until then, for that very reason.

    Your stealthed units should be avoiding the main enemy army pretty much all the time, so whether it has truesight or not isn’t a big deal.

    Calling more experienced Rogue Players to weight in on the matter, please. I only started going heavy on Rogue a couple days ago, but concealment definitely seems really powerful in MP, even if supports all have True Sight

    #197557

    Actually, if you look at list carefully proposed nerfs inflict ALL class supports.

    All racial supports – True sight on Elite;

    Contradictory.

    #197559

    CSav10
    Member

    In MP stealth is defenitely more effective I can vouch for that.

    #197563

    Zaskow
    Member

    Contradictory.

    Open your eyes better.

    Evangelists – True sight on Expert;
    Apprentices – True sight on Expert;
    Bards – True sight on Expert;
    Succubus – True sight on Expert;
    Reanimators – True sight on Elite;
    Shamans – True sight on Expert;

    Your stealthed units should be avoiding the main enemy army pretty much all the time, so whether it has truesight or not isn’t a big deal.

    It’s a bit problematic for not flying or floating troops. You must move through mountains and forests mostly for successful avoiding. That’s why Stalkers are the best stealths. What about assassins?

    Calling more experienced Rogue Players to weight in on the matter, please. I only started going heavy on Rogue a couple days ago, but concealment definitely seems really powerful in MP, even if supports all have True Sight

    My experience goes from MP mostly. I don’t tell here about cheating AIs – what the sense? Human almost always has in his army units with True sight. Not because he’s cautious, just because True sight is very common trait.

    #197575

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    It is definitely a bad idea to remove true sight from so many base units. Stealth would be too good. I would say that all racial support units must have true sight from recruit.

    There are only a few units from that list where I don’t think true sight really fits but I haven’t seen any convincing game play reasons for why they should be removed. Support units are commonly used but it would be far too annoying to have to deal with stealth if they didn’t have true sight.

    #197583

    You said you wanted to only nerf class units, but then you wrote a nerf to Racial supports as well.

    That is contradictory.

    Nothing wrong with my eyes. Perhaps you should learn to communicate better?

    All racial supports – True sight on Elite

    is worse than

    Evangelists – True sight on Expert;
    Apprentices – True sight on Expert;
    Bards – True sight on Expert;
    Succubus – True sight on Expert;
    Reanimators – True sight on Elite;
    Shamans – True sight on Expert;

    You are aware of the difference between elite and expert, right?

    Not only is this not a good idea, but you yourself seem confused about what you are trying to say.

    #197584

    Zaskow
    Member

    Stealth would be too good. I would say that all racial support units must have true sight from recruit.

    Only 2 classes can do stealth good – AD and rogue. This change could help Rogue a bit in his indirect warfare.

    It is definitely a bad idea to remove true sight from so many base units.

    Don’t removing, just moving.
    Maybe, elite is too late? Veteran?

    You said you wanted to only nerf class units, but then you wrote a nerf to Racial supports as well.

    I didn’t say that. Look better at 1st post. I proposed nerf for all supports – class and racial both. And you told me that I want to nerf only Sorc.

    #197596

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think Rogue is weak.

    Even if they are, removing true sight from basically every unit would be too much of a buff to stealth (yes I understand you don’t want it removed but moved to expert/elite, but that would make true sight incredibly rare still).

    #197599

    Zaskow
    Member

    Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think Rogue is weak.

    Me too. I just want more stealth in game.

    #197607

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Every race and class must have a buildable unit that comes with true sight at the very least or else stealth would become too annoying or overpowered.

    I think stealth is at a place where it’s useable but not difficult to counter (if you anticipate it). The game is designed in such a way that stealth units would be too annoying to deal with if stealth became prevalent.

    #197610

    I’m not much of Rogue/Stealthy player, so I may be talking without much knowledge, but would it be completelly crazy if we had SOME units imune to Detection? Like in form of Improved Concealment, I would place only on Tier 1 (Maybe Tier 2) units, so they could be used more as a recognition party than a attack party.

    Edit: Before someone kill me, I’m just throwing the ideia, not really suggesting a change.

    Edit 2: Or maybe even, as a form of a ability usable in the Strategic Map (just like the Frosling Ice Queen’s ability) Grating imunity to detection for 1-3 turns for the unit, being usable just maybe just once on the unit. Or something else less permanent.

    #197620

    Zaskow
    Member

    Every race and class must have a buildable unit that comes with true sight at the very least or else stealth would become too annoying or overpowered.

    Not much units have more than one concealment. Only Rogue and Druid has.

    Anyway, I think stealth in game must be buffed in some kind, because it’s easy detectable now.

    #197622

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Every race and class must have a buildable unit that comes with true sight at the very least or else stealth would become too annoying or overpowered.

    Precisely.

    #197684

    Sorcerers get invisible stacks, so there is that as well. And anyone who takes partisan. Anyway, garresh has a while guide on stealth somewhre, and it is quite powerful as long as you counter scout and account for units vision range.

    Its really only floating, or especially flying units with true sight that make stealth really difficult. But I’ll let the stealth experts say more.

    #197692

    Zaskow
    Member

    And anyone who takes partisan.

    Partisan works on one unit, not on stack. Also this specialization can hide units in your domain which isn’t very useful, because invaders have units with True sight guaranteed.

    #197698

    n0rf
    Member

    I think problem is not that many units have true sight. Problem is that it has the most effective ones. Racial supports are too effective not to have em. Usually they are most available source of nonphysical effect, they usually have nice buffs/debuffs, their cost is small and what is the most important EVERY(!) building which you need for them has very good usage (Actually you want to build temple and lab even if you don’t want to build racial supports). There are so many benefits that everyone has lot of priests.

    But, I totally agree with that

    Every race and class must have a buildable unit that comes with true sight at the very least or else stealth would become too annoying or overpowered.

    Just because if you weren’t be prepared or lost battle, you won’t have any chances to level up your supports (most of nearby mobs are already dead, there maybe an enemy with stealth).

    So what I suggest instead? I have some options:
    1) Nerfing priests, so they would be usefull for specific purpose (no more full support army). But actually I don’t think devs would do it
    2) Adding specific building which would grant true sight for priests. This would allow to counter stealth, but it won’t be free.

    Also I agree that sorc has too many units with true sight. Some of them could be nerfed.

    #197708

    Zaskow
    Member

    Just because if you weren’t be prepared or lost battle, you won’t have any chances to level up your supports

    Some classes can recruit expert supports.
    Maybe, True sight on elite medal is a bit much, veteran then. T3 building + laboratory isn’t a big requirement.

    1) Nerfing priests, so they would be usefull for specific purpose (no more full support army). But actually I don’t think devs would do it

    Agreed. Sometimes full stacks of priest look odd.

    2) Adding specific building which would grant true sight for priests. This would allow to counter stealth, but it won’t be free.

    This.
    No need to invent new buildings. Observatory is a good candidate for this.

    #197727

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>chrysophylax páuperem wrote:</div>
    And anyone who takes partisan.

    Partisan works on one unit, not on stack. Also this specialization can hide units in your domain which isn’t very useful, because invaders have units with True sight guaranteed.

    Invisible units hiding in your domain is useful or at least situational, you may use it in cities in the front. Perhaps you just don’t see the usefulness in it.

    I like it and I use it when it suits me and when I do it works really well. It fits with Partisan Army too.

    The fact that you cannot scout what a player has in the domain is a big deal. You are forced to risk expensive scouts that aren’t in most cases as effective. Nor are you guaranteed that what you see in the city radius is what is really there. Mind games are an effective tool.

    #197733

    ariga
    Member

    Support without true sight at start would make Invis broken & many thing get concealment on specific area. which mean u would get nothing to counter it also u complain about true sight but it’s got a limited range (3 or 4 hexe for support, not sure) so u can still see your enemy while invisible if you play it smart also support unit won t be everywhere most of time inside city and on army stack which mean u got plenty of way to come close to an enemy without him to be able to see you coming until it’s too late i saw many player use it on MP(since i play with much different player) So no steal don’t need to be up it’s great only thing who could be nice is to ad more terrain concealment for Rogue maybe.

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