Tagged: Nerf May (not) be Needed
April 9, 2014 at 09:55 #73230
Soooo I hate to ruin a good tactic but has anyone else found Double fire to be completely Overpowered? First of all, the Summoned units/Buffs from it are just crazy, but that’s not where its really bad.
Where its OP is Hellfire. This move is completely unfair and insane. A way to win almost every time unless you fight someone doing the same thing but then still if your a Dreadnought or a Warlord you get to face-roll.
What you do is, get your hero nice and tanky with Fire Protection until your at 100% which is a joke with the Item Forge and Invisibility using boots. 50% of mounts giving 40% fire Protection. Turtle Turtle Turtle until your army is scary, but that wont matter you dont need it. The real turtle is to get Hellfire and Destabilized ManaCore (Just hellfire works to). At this Point you should have your hero ready and should have at least 100AP but 150AP is always nicer.
So pretty much just run around with your Hero, Engage the biggest army you can find , engage them your 1 Hero vs (The Holy Army’s of god).
They Advance (Unless they dont)
You Run the farthest safe spot you can Find, Cast Destabilized ManaCore/Hellfire
They Advance again,
Run away again, Cast Hellfire Boom they are mostly dead (or the mana core will go off at the end of the turn and do even more damage). Then Simple Pick off the Remainders, Or cast it again next turn if you have the AP.
If you cant do it with your Hero, simple run from battle and return with a few juggernauts to finish up, which probably wont lose any health cleaning up.
Anyone else find this trick or anything like it (Yes Chaos rift is scary to)April 9, 2014 at 10:08 #73249
But you don’t strictly need a hero, you can work is out with every creature which is immune to fire, I would say that it’s better to have a stack of 8 immune fire units to finish off what’s left of the enemy army instead of just having one hero.
You can find immune fire units in dwarve and draconian roster.
Also, you don’t need to use Warlord or Dreadnought.
Btw, Dreadnought has the same kind of spell as hellfire.
It deals 60 fire damage instead of 50 but it has a 2 turn cooldown, you can pair it up with Destuction sphere which adds 20% to its damage (leading to 75 fire damage).
I would say: yes it is broken.
Because, seeing the devastation that it brings, there should be decent counter, but the only possible counter is to have very good resist fire, and the only way to achieve that is to play Dwarves or Draconian.
And 20 – 40 % resist fire is not enough against a double hellfire.
Right now, I don’t see an effective counter.
I decided to stop using it because it ruins all my fun.
Btw if you couple this with a Theocrat hero and its Justicar ability, I don’t think it’s possible to loose a fight.
*You don’t need Theocrat leader, just hero.April 9, 2014 at 10:11 #73255
I see that your enemies dont pick dwarves as often as they should. Double fire has a short coming known as fire protection. There are lots of it as you yourself mentioned.
If you stop for a while and think what a similar frost spell would do you will notice that this is not op at all.April 9, 2014 at 10:16 #73264
How is this diff to a floaty/flying hero & earthquake?
Plus what Riukulehto said.April 9, 2014 at 10:17 #73266
You can do better.
Use your hero and an army of 5 Firstborns.
Turn 1: Mana Core
Turn 2: Fire halo your hero.
Turn 3: Hellfire + Mana Core hits.
No need to develop fire resist gear, and the army fights really well even without the trick.April 9, 2014 at 10:21 #73272
There is no big difference with earthquake, but earthquake deals less damage and will not kill most t1 nor t2 in first turn.
Hellfire can get rid of all t1 and some t2 at first use, while crippling every other unit.
Eathquake will leave flying/floating units without a scratch (usually t3, t4).
Again you don’t need to focus with your hero.
Casting fire halo on your hero or buffing it with resist fire is not better, it is less effective.
It is less effective because you loose turn to cast halo fire and because you need to build items to make it resist fire.
You can just use stack of units that already are immune to fire.April 9, 2014 at 10:31 #73288
The big difference between this an earthquake is 3 T4’s take nothing from earthquake (Manticores, Horrors, Shrines). Everyone gets wrecked by fire.April 9, 2014 at 10:35 #73291
How is this OP with a dreadnought? Sounds like Hellfire itself is unbalanced, except for Flametanks and Engineers, Dreadnought units dont get special super-fire resistance. Its why Mana Core is really a terrible ability. Chaos Rift is far more dangerous and damaging then Mana Core is.
So wouldnt a Sorcerer with Fire Master be much worst?
Dwarves and Draconians racial units is where its at.April 9, 2014 at 10:35 #73292
Sloul by not having your hero in the fight you’re doubling the spell cost, halving the amount of times you can do this per turn, as well as making this strategy take longer to get ‘up’ by needing over a hundred mana to just cast the minimum spell.April 9, 2014 at 10:40 #73301
Well, it didn’t really bother me in my games, but sure it is worth mentioning.April 9, 2014 at 10:49 #73320
Yup, its op… and the only way to win campaign on hard settings… not sure how this works in multiplayer tho. Game needs serious spell rework. Not to mention adventure map spells.
Btw they should add a map in combat, cauze you cant see s***.April 9, 2014 at 10:54 #73327
The dreadnought point is fair, the advantage of Dreadnought as I see is that they get Mana core without any specialisation, so you can take Creation Mastery/Expander for more synergy. However for the combo of Firstborns and Hellfire, a dwarven sorceror would be excellent as well.
One weakness I can see, can’t Mana Core be disjuncted before it occurs?April 9, 2014 at 10:55 #73331
Yes it does.April 9, 2014 at 11:07 #73347
Sloul part of the using ManaCore with the hellfire move is it doesnt give the enemy team to react to the Damage. its 110 fire Damage in straight in one turn. So they cant get off those pesky heals and what not.
And the Point of using a Warlord or Dread is to have the extremely strong T4s ready to protect anything that comes to reap your base when your Hero is away.
Also I have done a similar thing with a Sorcerer. The effect is pretty much the same just less base defence and all your T4s start to eat up Mana you could be using on the Hellfires.April 9, 2014 at 11:11 #73353
Also part of the reason I dont use first borns to help and Normally just my hero is for the flying effect. Normally I can get a flying mount to get around. So I can just go straight for bases and ignore pathing. Plus after you wipe 2 or 3 armys your hero alone is level +15 where if you stack most of your Points into HP, Melee, Def your hero is golden after the magic.April 9, 2014 at 11:26 #73372
So it seems if you are facing a dwarven dreadnought, and you aren’t either a dwarf/ or have dwarven cities, have taken mastery of fire for fire halo, or have disjunction yet, you will lose at least one fight a turn no matter the size.
On the other hand if you are a Dwarf and have taken Fire Mastery for Hellfire the only counter really is another dwarf.April 9, 2014 at 12:20 #73457
Even without any of the “Damage all units on the battlefield” spells it’s a faceroll.
With any of them (Earthquake, Hellfire, Mana Core, etc.) it’s just extra ludicrous. There is cheese everywhere.April 9, 2014 at 12:29 #73469
I’ve never been a fan of “damage-everything-on-the-battlefield” nukes, and especially the types that do such catastrophic damage as Hellfire and Mana Core. These should be a lot harder to cast – maybe something like 100 mana per cast, or their damage should be significantly reduced.April 9, 2014 at 12:32 #73474
Can you cast Destabilized Mana Core or Chaos Rift, retreat your hero from the battlefield and have the spell still work ?April 9, 2014 at 12:52 #73487
the way thing work, if your enemy don’t have hospital, send 1 moronic t1 to fight and explode him dead (class summon is perfect), the turn after send another or your army.
Canon fodder go go go!April 9, 2014 at 13:33 #73537
Well in multiplayer this can be countered by sending multiple armies at you one after each other in the same turn. Just never let them stay clustered.April 9, 2014 at 18:45 #73837
This. Use strategy, don’t complain it’s OP – see the thread about Chaos Rift. Those spells are SUPPOSED to be stupid-powerful. If anything, make it more expense and/or longer to research…April 10, 2014 at 05:00 #74657
The only thing that should change is that you should not be able to cast it without a leader or hero being in the battle to prevent sending one little hatchling in suicide bombing it then sending the army in or maybe half of the damage heals as soon as the battle endsApril 10, 2014 at 05:10 #74661
Hellfire > Manacore
I chose Theocrat instead of Dreadnought. I don’t see how dreadnought makes fire mastery + dwarf combo any more powerful. Then with dreadnought the only damage you’ll be able to deal is fire damage.April 10, 2014 at 05:16 #74666
This. Use strategy, don’t complain it’s OP – see the thread about Chaos Rift. Those spells are SUPPOSED to be stupid-powerful. If anything, make it more expense and/or longer to research…
You can use strategies , and find a valid counter and still consider that a gameplay feature is too strong and should be reduced ? If you can’t deal with two antagonistics judgment , you might be too simple for a strategy game. It s all about fun vs antifun
So on topic , I m having a loads of fun with AoE spells but I still think the cost in reasearch is too low compared to the power it unleashes. I like both of a previous poster suggestions , hero needs to be present on battlefield + higher mana cost and/or half of the damages healed at the end of fight for the survivors (this avoids the suicidal tier 1 summons).
It s fun when I go blow up everything with a single spell+ a summon and a concealed hero , it ‘s less fun when I have to chase a concealed unit all through my territory because this hero serves as a casting point for suicide tierI summon bombers. the first time someone uses this strat against you , yeah you have fun reacting and trying to get his scheme blown out …but it grows old very fast 🙂April 10, 2014 at 05:26 #74671
Offensive spells are OP in general.
Defensive and support spells are just utterly underwhelming, starting from Tier I and all the way up.
I’ve yet to be in a single situation where taking an entire turn to cast a buff on a unit is better than using some offensive ability, the sole exception being healing a unit that isn’t at full health at the start of a battle.
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