Mechanics of Surrender

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Mechanics of Surrender

This topic contains 16 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Wallthing 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #216279

    Hunter
    Member

    The mechanics of the AI surrendering are not achieving the intended purpose right now, but they could with minor changes.

    The problem

    – Enemy AI generals often surrender way too early, after you have given them a bloody nose, but are far from certain to kill them off. This robs the game of some possible interesting scenarios and the satisfaction of properly defeating the enemy.
    – The end game is still boring, because you might be far and away the most powerful on the map, but still have to go through and defeat a number of enemy generals, which you may not have even met yet. But it is CERTAIN that you will win, hence the game is boring (for some I suppose, including me).

    The solution

    – Enemies should never surrender unless they are overwhelmingly defeated, with just a few minor holdouts. Before they surrender, they should AT LEAST TRY the following better solutions:

    — Move all remaining troops to the biggest remaining town, hunker down and defend.
    — Sue for peace
    — Try and get others to attack the player, thus forcing them to divert resources and agree peace

    BUT…

    AIs should surrender if the player has an overwhelming lead overall on the map. The game should have another victory type, and once it is clear that you will win, everyone gets a warning for a few turns before the win happens.

    #216351

    Ericridge
    Member

    If the AI surrenders it means your amount of troops on the frontline far outmatches what they have in their own territory. It is a foregone conclusion. It isn’t possible for the AI to beat up your 35+ Stacks waiting on the border when they only have like 10 or 12. And their stacks is all scattered.

    Solutions you presented.

    1. AI used to do this, they razed all the cities they couldn’t hold and then parked their soldiers in the throne city. Problem is, they auto lose by doing that because they can be starved out economically and all those soldiers will eventually desert cuz a single metropolis cannot support that many soldiers unless its a emperor and it has obscene amount of gold mines.

    2. Sue for peace. Why take the peace offer when you know he will be coming back for you later. If he must sue for peace he will need to generate a new threat on borders of the winning enemy. The one so great that a peace treaty is preferable to wiping the losing enemy out.

    3. I think this does happen sometimes. I’m not sure though. We need a dev confirmation on this.

    The final option you present where player has a overwhelming lead overall on the map is already available. All you need to do is enable the Seals or Unification beacon victory conditions.

    #216374

    pikaq
    Member

    Enemy AIs often surrender way too early especially when the AIs are in a team vitory.
    Even the enemy has few units,he can still do something like disjucting my spell or cast strategic spell to earn time for his ally AI.

    #216375

    Hunter
    Member

    If the AI surrenders it means your amount of troops on the frontline far outmatches what they have in their own territory. It is a foregone conclusion. It isn’t possible for the AI to beat up your 35+ Stacks waiting on the border when they only have like 10 or 12. And their stacks is all scattered.

    If that were true I would have little complaint, but it is not. In my most recent game, they had two whole stacks and a large city to defend, but surrendered. It would have been extremely difficult for me to ‘mop them up’, and I may have lost. Meanwhile, I have other enemies that I need to deal with. I would have happily agreed to a temporary peace so I could defend elsewhere.

    1. AI used to do this, they razed all the cities they couldn’t hold and then parked their soldiers in the throne city. Problem is, they auto lose by doing that because they can be starved out economically and all those soldiers will eventually desert cuz a single metropolis cannot support that many soldiers unless its a emperor and it has obscene amount of gold mines.

    True. They will eventually need to carve out more territory, but hopefully somewhere else.

    2. Sue for peace. Why take the peace offer when you know he will be coming back for you later. If he must sue for peace he will need to generate a new threat on borders of the winning enemy. The one so great that a peace treaty is preferable to wiping the losing enemy out.

    Explained above, because there are other things to do with my army.

    The final option you present where player has a overwhelming lead overall on the map is already available. All you need to do is enable the Seals or Unification beacon victory conditions.

    I have tried that, but it does not work in the same way. It does address the problem to some extent.

    I played with Seals on, but then you can lose the game without ever meeting the AIs who win on the other edge of the map. So I turn it off.

    I played with beacons on, but you can end up with -600 morale in all cities, again without being able to do much about it (beyond going about conquering them all), so I turn it off.

    #216482

    emky
    Member

    I mainly wish the surrender didn’t give the leader as a hero (that goes over the hero limit!) And that they’d wait a LITTLE bit longer before surrendering.

    #216600

    Ericridge
    Member

    Hunter, you probably had five stacks to the AI’s two stacks.

    2. Effectiveness of Suing for peace greatly depends on the size of the map. If there is a hostile threat on west side and my armies is on east side busy killing the AI who is trying to sue for peace. I would reject the peace offer and attempt to finish the AI off before moving all my eastern armies to the west while I have my western armies attempt to hold the hostile threat in the west and contain them for as long as possible. It easily can take 10+ turns to redeploy from a front to other front.

    If it was on small to medium map, I can see suing for peace working there.

    As it turns out, you didn’t have a overwhelming lead for the AIs to win by seal victory after all. Rule of thumb when you are playing on XL map with seals enabled, you must scout out the map very hard! And establish cities in important places. Failure to do so will allow a demigod break loose and make you lose. It’s difficult to play seals on XL.

    And about beacons. Don’t like -600 empire unhappiness? Build beacons to negate them. Don’t want to? Enjoy -600 empire unhappiness. And if you have more beacons built than the AI, they suffer from empire unhappiness while you enjoy the very happy happy happiness empire. With enough beacons built, even very happy emperor AI empire will become unhappy and emo!

    #216647

    pikaq
    Member

    The attachments is what I got from the surrendered enemy.I play vs 4 allied AI.This is the first AI surrendering to me.I think it’s too early to surrender.
    Or perhaps don’t let the AI surrender when he has allies.

    #216694

    Ericridge
    Member

    So I see two shadowstalkers, four knights. And several succubuses. Plus two heroes. Yeah the AI has already lost. It barely have any kind of ranged damage to put up a successful siege defense. Cuz that kind of army is more of a offensive one.

    It is possible to win with that kind of army as defending army in a siege but it would require massive revamp to the AI. It would have to fight inside the city instead of on the walls. But you pretty much can finish it off at your own leisure now.

    #216771

    pikaq
    Member

    So I see two shadowstalkers, four knights. And several succubuses. Plus two heroes. Yeah the AI has already lost. It barely have any kind of ranged damage to put up a successful siege defense. Cuz that kind of army is more of a offensive one.

    It is possible to win with that kind of army as defending army in a siege but it would require massive revamp to the AI. It would have to fight inside the city instead of on the walls. But you pretty much can finish it off at your own leisure now.

    Theocraft AI surrenders to me even he has at least three shrine of smiting and many other units.The sorcerer AI surrenders to me with his many apprencices.it doesn’t depend on the ranged units number.
    The point is not whether the AI has been defeated for sure.The point is that the AI joins me with a lot of units.The city joins me without absorbing.It’s much easier for me to defeat the other AI.
    Especially when I played versus the team allied AIs.If the AI doesn’t surrender,It will cost me a few turns to defeat this AI and take me some time to absorb the city.At the same time,the other allied AI will attack my other cities,then perhaps It will cost me more turns to defeat this AI or even I have to retreat to defense.

    So I see two shadowstalkers, four knights. And several succubuses. Plus two heroes. Yeah the AI has already lost. It barely have any kind of ranged damage to put up a successful siege defense. Cuz that kind of army is more of a offensive one.

    It is possible to win with that kind of army as defending army in a siege but it would require massive revamp to the AI. It would have to fight inside the city instead of on the walls. But you pretty much can finish it off at your own leisure now.

    Theocraft AI surrenders to me even he has at least three shrine of smiting and many other units.The sorcerer AI surrenders to me with his many apprencices.it doesn’t depend on the ranged units number.
    The point is not whether the AI has been defeated for sure.The point is that the AI joins me with a lot of units.The city joins me without absorbing.It’s much easier for me to defeat the other AI.
    Especially when I played versus the team allied AIs.If the AI doesn’t surrender,It will cost me a few turns to defeat this AI and take me some time to absorb the city.At the same time,the other allied AI will attack my other cities,then perhaps It will cost me more turns to defeat this AI or even I have to retreat to defense.

    #216789

    Can the AI surrender to other AI’s ?

    #216799

    Wallthing
    Member

    Can the AI surrender to other AI’s ?

    I think I’ve read that they can not. As far as I know, the surrender mechanism was created to prevent games from dragging on long past the point at which the AI had already effectively lost to the player.

    #217404

    Mourioche
    Member

    I mainly wish the surrender didn’t give the leader as a hero (that goes over the hero limit!) And that they’d wait a LITTLE bit longer before surrendering.

    But the surrender-mecanism should give something to the winner.
    If you don’t give the leader as hero… what else could you give ?
    .
    For me, the leader as hero is something cool,
    And the “hero limit rule” should be adapted (Example : This hero don’t count in this mecanism, and then cannot be resurected as other heros [Could be introduce in game with a tag “surrendered leader” in the hero sheet])
    .
    Something i don’t like with this surender-mecanism is that you can have other units and a town with the hero. This is something that can strongly change a game if you are lucky.
    .
    Something else i don’t like with this mecanism is that towns of the surrendered become neutral, and you are at war agains them.
    Becoming neutral is ok, but to be at war is not something good.
    If he surrender, it is to obtain peace !.. so you should be at peace with these town.
    To be at war mean you can too easily concert these town, making the game easy.
    To be at peace – with the new mecanism of race gouvernance – is something better because perhaps you cannot simply declare war and rush these town.

    #217753

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    How did you get the AI’s units? Is that a setting? When the AI surrendered to me, I only got him as a new hero – joining my Leader on the other side of the map. His armies and heroes and towns became neutrals, and I had to hunt them down all the same as they started rampaging.

    Enemy AIs often surrender way too early especially when the AIs are in a team vitory.
    Even the enemy has few units,he can still do something like disjucting my spell or cast strategic spell to earn time for his ally AI.

    Agreed. Happened to me a few times – the AI still had about 4-5 heroes of level 6 to 8, plus lots of Tier IV Phoenixes and Tier III warlord units, and about 3-4 towns. Yet after taking 2 towns and defeating 2-3 heroes, he just surrendered.

    In another Skirmish map though (mind you this was before the expansion+patch) the AI did a really weird thing – she abandoned the Throne City, and moved all her units and heroes towards my nearest town. Yet… then she just passed the town and tried to embark the units. I caught up with her, and after killing the leader all her units and heroes just died in-combat…

    #217766

    Gloweye
    Member

    How did you get the AI’s units? Is that a setting? When the AI surrendered to me, I only got him as a new hero – joining my Leader on the other side of the map. His armies and heroes and towns became neutrals, and I had to hunt them down all the same as they started rampaging.

    You get his Throne if you haven’t captured it yet – which usually contains a sizeable chunk of his forces.

    #217945

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    How did you get the AI’s units? Is that a setting? When the AI surrendered to me, I only got him as a new hero – joining my Leader on the other side of the map. His armies and heroes and towns became neutrals, and I had to hunt them down all the same as they started rampaging.

    You get his Throne if you haven’t captured it yet – which usually contains a sizeable chunk of his forces.

    Ah, then that had to be it, I captured his throne along with his half-built bacon… erm, beacon. Maybe that was also why he surrendered? maybe destroying a beacon gives an empire negative morale?

    #217954

    Gloweye
    Member

    Ah, then that had to be it, I captured his throne along with his half-built bacon… erm, beacon. Maybe that was also why he surrendered? maybe destroying a beacon gives an empire negative morale?

    mhhh, bacon….

    Nah, it doesn’t give penalties. It does mean you likely took an important city, as well as killed most of his army. Especially killing a large % of his army in one battle can convince him to surrender.

    And destroying a beacon gives no bad morale that I’m aware of, though it will of course remove your bonusses/protection against other beacons..

    #217969

    Wallthing
    Member

    If you can threaten his throne city while he’s in the void, that also seems to make a difference.

    Ex: I’d just kicked a foe out of his city nearest my domain, sending him into the void and probably half of his army to hell in the process. The first time I kept my army in the city to absorb or ghoul it nice and slow. The turn he came back from the void I of course buggered up something silly (think I accidentally declared war on my own vassal) and reloaded a save.

    Decided to experiment – this time I moved my army out of the conquered city and towards his throne, leaving me 1 turn from his capital and him 2 turns from reappearing. Ended my turn and he offered to surrender rather than I suppose risking a siege while he’s in the void.

    I only wish the AI would take into account allies and enemies-of-my-enemy for surrendering – but that might be kinda tough to program or maybe just not worth the time. Plus for allies to definitely matter you’d need them to coordinate.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.