Message for developers. About: new patch

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Message for developers. About: new patch

This topic contains 199 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Nodor 7 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #199941

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    Please guys, try to keep this thread clear – I would really like to get response from developers.

    What is it about:
    I dont write much on forums. So when I do now, it has to be something special.
    I considered nerf pounce for sure thing. But seems I was wrong.

    Dear developers. Pounce is imba. Everybody know that (even John Snow, ask him). I have no idea why you forgot for that in new beta patch, but its still chance to fix it.

    Why pounce is imba?
    – it has no counter except of dwarf theo for mass crusaders.
    – basic irregular has it. Thats main issue. Pounce can be ok for supports, for berserkers (ofc nerfed a bit, because pounce is too strong itself) or even manticores. But when basic tigran irregular has great speed (explorer), sprint + “short ranged attack” after which he engage enemy while defended.. its imba. I tried it in few games… basically I was able to kill all players just with spamming irregulars. You cant do this with any other irregular. Its imba. Please nerf it.

    My suggestions for nerf pounce (after discuss with other players like BBB):
    – decrease range from 3 to 2. So if you make 2 lines on walls tigrans cant jump high. Why? Its really weird when some irregular unit is one turn out of range and second turn in your back.
    – let units suffer a bit after pounce (like they have to rezist 9, or they will gain exhausting fatigue for one turn.. and they have to rezist 6 or they loose all movement points for next turn).

    If you dont think so Im right, I would really like to hear your arguments why pounce isnt imba.

    Im ready to prove it any player or any developer in game. I promise I will kill you only with irregulars and will not care what army you have. And thats wrong.

    Thank you

    Abed

    #199948

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    – decrease range from 3 to 2. So if you make 2 lines on walls tigrans cant jump high. Why? Its really weird when some irregular unit is one turn out of range and second turn in your back.<br>

    I second that.

    #199989

    Well, pounce putting you into defensive stance apparently was added as it otherwise was practically suicidal. Adding a debuff after pounce would return that issue.

    Then I wonder how exactly dwarf crusaders are the only counter.

    #199995

    m007kuzya
    Member

    If problem only with irregular, may be just give them “small pounce”? With 2 hex.

    IMHO Problem with Cheetah spam is not only pounce. With sprint, mortal arts, throw net, 32mp and, of ocurse, pounce – he is just strongest T1 irregular in the game.
    May be not nerf pounce, but nerf Cheetah?

    #199996

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Well, pounce putting you into defensive stance apparently was added as it otherwise was practically suicidal. Adding a debuff after pounce would return that issue.

    Then I wonder how exactly dwarf crusaders are the only counter.

    Yeah, not making much sense to me. Pounce doesn’t count for flanking attacks (no Backstab synergy with rogue, unless that has been changed in the patch), hits once, and is on a squishy T1 Irreg in its most common incarnation.

    Its annoying as hell, but I certainly wouldn’t call it imba.

    #200000

    On the one hand, Cheetahs are fairly fragile.

    On the other hand, I respect Abed because he has been consistently one of the top players in the game. At the moment, he’s my favourite to win the tournament.

    I would need to play some more Tigrans to get a more rounded feel for them (I’ve been abusing Humans lately) but it seems like the principal issue is pounce?

    I for one wouldn’t mind it being an “almost suicidal” thing to act as a tradeoff, as at first glance it seems better than defensive strike etc.

    I’ll come back to this with more dedicated testing and thinking.

    #200005

    Mythabril
    Member

    Maybe drop the defensive stance and add a one turn long Total Awareness. So the flanking issue gets overcome while not intruding on Defensive Strike.

    #200007

    Meeky
    Member

    I for one wouldn’t mind it being an “almost suicidal” thing to act as a tradeoff, as at first glance it seems better than defensive strike etc.

    Yeah, it is better than Defensive Stance. At worst, it can put you out of position… except it won’t because you have a lot of ways to shift where the Cheetah lands if you have any form of ranged attack.

    Honestly, if I were to fight Cheetahs I’d just try and spam area of effect attacks to get rid of them, but I don’t know how effective that’d be since they’d certainly get the first strike if used with Explorer, and the first strike is very important.

    I don’t know if Cheetahs are the end-all be-all strategy, but then I’m not an expert. They feel strong, certainly, but they also feel about as fragile as Untouchables EXCEPT right after they’re in Guard thanks to pouncing.

    #200009

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I for one wouldn’t mind it being an “almost suicidal” thing to act as a tradeoff, as at first glance it seems better than defensive strike etc.

    Before we put the guard mode onto pounce, it was more “Actually suicidal” than “Almost”. Cheetahs would die after every auto combat, guaranteed. Removing it would swing cheetahs from “maybe OP” into “useless in multiplayer”.

    Anyways, we can’t change the range to 2 hexes, since the system only supports Short(3)/Medium(5)/Long (7) range stuff and we can’t add a chance for pounce to debuff the user (see Almost Suicidal).

    What we could do is:

    1) Remove the damage bonus (currently it’s at melee strength +3)
    2) Change the Tigran Military 2 to not give throw net to Cheetahs, but to do something else (though I don’t know what)

    #200011

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Maybe drop the defensive stance and add a one turn long Total Awareness. So the flanking issue gets overcome while not intruding on Defensive Strike.

    This is an option as well I guess? They wouldn’t get the defensive bonus at least.

    #200012

    Ahh, autocombat :(.

    I’d forgotten about that.

    Thanks for the quick reply by the way.

    Okay, off the top of my head, seems like the easiest thing to do would be reduce the damage of pounce. As it is a free attack, with defend activated, it could be a lower attack, so more a nuisance than the main effort of using Cheetahs?

    I.E something you’d use as a coordinated effort to set up flanks rather than what seems to be the main thing right now, which is mass pounce to kill a unit.

    #200013

    quo
    Member

    Any way you could make it require line of sight? It’s kind of weird that you can leap over a wall, but only if someone is standing next to it for you to vault over.

    #200015

    Not so sure it’s pounce either.

    It’s that they have pounce -and- (later) sprint -and- athletics -and- high base movement -and- hurl net -and- (later) martial arts -and- the fact that they deal as much damage as a high elf swordsman.

    Pounce deals 13 damage. That’s a lot on an irregular.

    10 normal damage is pretty good. But once you factor in Sprint and their high base movement, it becomes really scary. Your flanks are never safe.

    Their fragility compensates, but they still vastly outclass all other irregulars in utility value.

    #200020

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    What if we removed Martial Arts from Gold and put Sprint there instead? Looking at it, he does seem to have more level up stuff than other irregulars.

    #200028

    Bouh
    Member

    Haha ! I’m saying it for months.

    #200029

    Gloweye
    Member

    1) Remove the damage bonus (currently it’s at melee strength +3)

    This seems OK to me. Never got why it was there in the first place.

    What if we removed Martial Arts from Gold and put Sprint there instead? Looking at it, he does seem to have more level up stuff than other irregulars.

    It does have more, and it might be a good plan to. More squishy after the initial pounce.

    Also, would it be possible to enable retaliation strikes? That would make it far less strong against stronger enemies.

    #200037

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Haha ! I’m saying it for months.

    Yeah, you’re right. We probably should leave it as is…

    #200038

    Bouh
    Member

    Their fragility compensates, but they still vastly outclass all other irregulars in utility value.

    Their “fragility” BTW is relative because they are still tougher than most irregulars. Only the orc is tougher.

    #200039

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Also, would it be possible to enable retaliation strikes? That would make it far less strong against stronger enemies.

    Not easily, no. It could be done in theory, but I’d need to recode chunks of the AI and interface to support it.

    #200045

    I wouldn’t change what most here suggested.
    But sprint and martial arts is a bit much comparatively. Even though getting cheetahs to gold medals isn’t that easy. But moving Sprint to gold medal clashes a bit with the last RG upgrade.

    What I would do is replace martial arts. The two abilities I see them getting are cave concealment to pair with prowlers and maybe inflict crippling wounds to sync with their lockdown theme.

    #200051

    Their “fragility” BTW is relative because they are still tougher than most irregulars. Only the orc is tougher.

    And they all have a ranged attack.
    But the only units without a ranged attacks that are more fragile are the kobold and some scout summons.
    So while relative is a thing, relative to what?

    #200056

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I wouldn’t change what most here suggested.<br>
    But sprint and martial arts is a bit much comparatively. Even though getting cheetahs to gold medals isn’t that easy. But moving Sprint to gold medal clashes a bit with the last RG upgrade.

    We can’t balance around tier 5 RG upgrades though, they don’t even show up in most multiplayer games. If it wasn’t called a Cheetah, I’d not give it sprint at all, but yeah, it kind of make sense given that it’s supposed to be the fastest thing.

    #200060

    Bouh
    Member

    And they all have a ranged attack.

    Yeah, this always is the argument. And it means that pounce is a so bad ability as a replacement for a ranged attack that you need to buff the cheetah and make her almost an infantry unit for her to be of any use…

    Slipery slopes and biased logic.

    #200064

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    Also, would it be possible to enable retaliation strikes? That would make it far less strong against stronger enemies.

    Not easily, no. It could be done in theory, but I’d need to recode chunks of the AI and interface to support it.

    If it’s that much, I’d say leave it, just tone down the damage to base melee damage and maybe rummage around a little with medal upgrades.

    #200065

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    OK, we’ll do that then.

    #200067

    We can’t balance around tier 5 RG upgrades though, they don’t even show up in most multiplayer games. If it wasn’t called a Cheetah, I’d not give it sprint at all, but yeah, it kind of make sense given that it’s supposed to be the fastest thing.

    I’m not saying balancing around them, but gold medal abilities should feel like rewards for getting a unit there. Similar for the higher RG tier. And having sprint at gold and at RG 5 does remove that aspect.
    I’m more suggesting leaving Sprint at veteran (because cheetah) and having a gold reward that is less powerful than martial arts.

    Yeah, this always is the argument. And it means that pounce is a so bad ability as a replacement for a ranged attack that you need to buff the cheetah and make her almost an infantry unit for her to be of any use…

    Slipery slopes and biased logic.

    Why would you say it isn’t? it has shorter range and puts you into melee distance. ranged attacks generally don’t do that. So the cheetah needs to kinda be able to actually be in melee distance.
    All the racial irregulars are ranged skirmishers. The cheetah isn’t.
    So why do you hold them to the same standard?

    #200082

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I’m more suggesting leaving Sprint at veteran (because cheetah) and having a gold reward that is less powerful than martial arts.

    Sprint is very good though, especially on a unit like a cheetah which has pounce and (potentially) hurl net. From what I can see, it’s one of the main causes of concern, so it does seem fitting as a gold medal prize. The other T1 irregulars don’t exactly get great stuff at gold, either.

    #200091

    NuMetal
    Member

    I for one wouldn’t mind it being an “almost suicidal” thing to act as a tradeoff, as at first glance it seems better than defensive strike etc.

    However defensive strike is on durable dwarfs and pounce on weak little kittens. Therefore you can’t really say it’s better. A kitten with defensive strike is worse than a kitten with pounce and a dwarfs with pounce is better than a dwarf with defensive strike but a dwarf with defensive strike is still better than a kitten with pounce.
    What I am saying is that you can’t look at the abilities in isolation.

    1) Remove the damage bonus (currently it’s at melee strength +3)

    I’m very much in favor of this! +1

    #200092

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I had been suggesting to change the first two Tigran Racial governance things, because prowler needs Warhall while Cheetah is immediately in (so switching the 2).

    I also wrote a ton about the fact that Cheetah has useless overkill. Hurl Net as RG is making the whole Pounce/Martial Arts thing something of an overstatement and vice versa.

    I would simply suggest to drop Hurl Net completely, and drop either Martial Arts or Sprint, and handing that out as the racial governance #1, switching prowlers to RG 2.

    If Pounce can’t be changed – well then, I think, bonus damage is ok, because you cannot flank with pounce. Also – how about allowing Polearm a (First and only) Strike against Pounce?

    #200093

    Bouh
    Member

    IMO the problem is that the cheetah is a unit that :
    – don’t require any building to be produced
    – is almost as fast as cavalry
    – almost have the power of T1 infantry
    – can jump over walls
    – can engage archers from farther than cavalry

    They punch way above their league. They have too much power for their place in the production tree, and too much utility.

    Half of the problem is pounce, and the other half is from the stats of the unit.

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