Message for developers. About: new patch

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Message for developers. About: new patch

This topic contains 199 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Nodor 7 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #200105

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I somewhat disagree with that assessment.

    Pounce is actually the equivalent of a ranged attack, except that it brings you close to your target, which comes with up- and downsides, but of course in siege combat the upside is fairly good.
    The next problem is Sprint because it not only ups range but make the unit mobile after a pounce.
    Pounce makes sense to have for the Cheetah.
    Sprint is a fabulous Racial Governance effect.
    Martial Arts isn’t needed (it might make sense without pounce, but with pounce, hmm, and it doesn’t help, when the unit is attacked).
    Throw Net makes all the rest look overkill. -> skill not needed.
    Bloodthirsty is a good medal.

    Would be enough of a irregular unit, if you ask me, considering the base mobility.

    #200108

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I agree with Bouh largely. Cheetahs feel like they are much stronger than their lowly place would indicate.

    In the albeit few MP games I’ve played with them they are too easy to spam and use to kill critical enemy units. They are like assassins in my mind. They are certainly vulnerable but due to their insane speed and pounce they are often able to destroy or evade their counters.

    If you try to build archers to take them out they split up and deny the archers attacks. If you try to form a line to protect your weaker units them jump past them and kill the weaker units. Although I wouldn’t go as far as AbednegoJC did and say the only strategy that works against them is massed crusaders, I do think one of the only effective strategies against them is to clump your forces up with more tough guards that you would normally need. That’s not easy to do so early in the game and it is very strange indeed to have to hard counter a T1 irregular built right at the start.

    I think Tombles and others are moving in the right direction though. The biggest problem is the damage. If they were more harassing units rather than cold blooded murderous killing machines they’d be just fine.

    #200117

    Thinking about it I do think they could use a damage reduction.
    I think their damage is technically fine for their place, and event he pounce bonus as a flanking equivalency is.
    But I see early cheetahs majorly as a bleeding delivery unit, and that has some interactions.
    With full 3 attacks bleeding is a 1.3 point damage boost and not really that powerful, but if it procs on a pounce, that is an effective 17 damage hit, and that is too much, even though it does have diminishing returns.
    So the combination can with some luck get a decent boost that puts the result quite a bit above the benchmark.
    But bleeding is too integral a function for cheetahs to remove it.
    So they need a damage reduction either for the pounce or their base attack.

    So either pounce gives them no added damage ( 10 melee & 10 pounce), or base damage reduction of 1-2 points (though i fear 2 might make them too weak).

    #200118

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    OK, we’re gonna keep the Sprint instead of MA at gold medal thing, it’s a no brainer as far as I’m concerned. The reduction in pounce damage is up in the air, might not happen. We’re going to look into Tigran Military 1 and 2, to see if we can find something in there. Hurl Net is probably too much for something like the Cheetah, and the Prowler Cost Reduction thing has always been kind of a mess.

    #200121

    I think that abed may have run into the “frying pan situation”. That was when a professional tennis player beat a decent one while using a frying pan. If you are that good, anything is op unless you are playing equals.

    On the other hand, removing the extra damage makes it different than defensive strike, which is a good thing.

    #200122

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    @tombles

    Im glad to here this.

    I didnt know pounce can be chaget so I totally agree with this conclusion:
    – remove pounce bonus for cheetah (what about berserker?)
    – remove hurl net

    Thank you for fast reaction!

    #200125

    Bouh
    Member

    The main question to ask is what role the cheetah is supposed to fit. Regular irregulars are only useful for a handful of things for me :
    – bad town defense
    – scout
    – tactical help

    The first too are “better than nothing” uses. For the third one I mean that IMO an irregular is mainly useful to settle a unit for a flank by a more powerful unit, deal a final blow, take some retaliations, and basicaly add a versatile and cheap body in your army.

    Cheetah are far more than that, because they can take cities and murder archers/support like almost no other unit in game.

    IMO, they would still be extremely useful without the buffed stats, so I would do :
    – -2 damage
    – -4MP
    – -1 defense
    – remove forest concealment and martial art medals

    Then they would still be tactical god send to set up flank and bring chaos in support and archer formations, but they wouldn’t be one man armies anymore, they would need some fighting units to do the dirty job once they messed up every one. Most importantly, they wouldn’t take towns as easily as they can do.

    #200128

    Mythabril
    Member

    You need to compare the whole racial line-ups and not just single tiers.

    #200135

    Personally I’d only remove Martial Arts and maybe change Hurl Net to Throw Net.

    I definitely wouldn’t remove the damage bonus on Pounce because I feel it’d remove its edge both flavor (the “sucker punch” feel) and utility wise. I’d sooner support lower base damage than a pounce damage nerf.

    I also think the Cheetah is a fun unit and it’s great to have a t1 irregular that’s worth training (asymmetric balance and all that) and the synergy between Tigrans and Raise Militia is quite nice. Really hope the unit doesn’t get castrated too much, the Cheetah being (usually) better than other t1 irregs is perfectly fine imo.

    Then again, I’m a single player peasant.

    #200147

    quo
    Member

    I think if it couldn’t leap over walls it would address the major issue. You can’t take a city with Prospectors or Civic Guards, they just can’t get past the wall. The earliest units that can kind of ignore walls cost Infantry (wall climbing) or Archer level production (Mosquito Darters). Cheetahs, its doable super cheap. If I had realized you could leap over walls with this ability I’d have been massing Cheetah armies, by turn 12 you could have two full stacks that could take any early city.

    It IS kind of hilarious to envision how this game would play out. Masses and masses of Cheetahs swarming from every conquered town, like the cat-undead. ;D

    #200167

    m007kuzya
    Member

    Maybe drop the defensive stance and add a one turn long Total Awareness. So the flanking issue gets overcome while not intruding on Defensive Strike.

    I very like this idea! This is make it more different from “defensive strike”, and are more thematic for predators.

    #200175

    CyperPhiber
    Member

    i love BBB 1st post and disagree with the threadopener. he regards things to single minded. i asked him even to test things out 1v1 but he only prefers ffas with settler starts and not normal conditions. so the whole crying here about pounce is to subjective and NEEDS alot more testings in safe enviroment (normal settings, not ffas because there are always weak players which are easy to rush). look at his style, he adresses his problems without any facts to the developers instead of bringing pure facts to the table.

    i often played necro tigran yet and the cheetha dies really easy to anything which survives the 1st hit especially easy taken out by range fire.

    btw im open to 1v1 testing, especially to this subject.

    #200261

    esadbaf
    Member

    As someone who has played tigran warlord extensively in multiplayer with the explorer skill, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread and more, I would have to agree with the premise of the thread that something should be done about pounce.

    But before I get into why I agree with this sentiment I feel I need to make a few points:
    (1)Arguing that something should be nerfed because it is the strongest of its type is not an argument that will hold up to any sort of discretion.
    (2)Nothing that the cheetah has ever been capable of doing is anywhere close to as potentially game-breaking as the frostling tier 1 irregular inherently inflicting freezing on their range attack.
    (3)If the ability to entrap with a net is removed from the cheetah, the prowler ability, coup de grace, becomes rather useless (similar to the frostling shatter strike if freezing were removed).

    To the point of the original poster, and the direction the thread has gone, general nerfing of the cheetah, what makes pounce, and by extension the cheetah, so powerful is not the damage inflicted, not the fact the attack ends in guard mode, its not the ability to hit the softer ranged units behind the line, nor is it the inflict bleeding that synergizes so well with the bloodthirsty prowler. Its the fact that the pounce turns any non-guarding unit around to face the hex the cheetah lands in, exposing that unit to flank attacks from the entirety of the rest of the tigran army. This makes destroying enemy armies of equal, or at least comparable strength, simply of matter of pounce, flank, pounce, flank, rinse, and repeat.

    The only thing pounce needs, and until this occurs it will need further balancing, is to be made a touch attack instead of a short range attack. Consider the fact that its not uncommon for a cheetah to be capable of ending up 14 hexes away from its starting hex, in guard after pouncing, by midgame. Without trail running, range decreases to 12 hexes, with an 11 hex attack range, compared to 4 hex movement radius for most other tier 1 irregulars. Making pounce a touch attack will reduce the utility of the cheetah to a screen and skirmish unit not capable of leaping over walls instead of the essential unit in the tigran army they are now. They would require some actual skill to use effectively rather than being the giant combat eraser of tactical mistakes they are now.

    Some might argue that removing the range of pounce would make it too similar to defensive strike, I would disagree as long as they retain the ability to land on the other side of their target, engaging units behind the front line and clearing the hex they attacked from to allow another unit to move in and strike. Still immensely powerful, especially on the warlord units, but far more limited in functionality than it is as a ranged attack.

    #200269

    Esadbaf, whoever you are, and wherever you just came from, welcome!

    Awesome post!

    #200273

    esadbaf
    Member

    Thanks BBB!

    I will say I’ve definitely heard of you as it was your ongoing(?) tigran lets play that inspired me to buy the expansion and try them in the first place.

    #200279

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Then that isn’t really pounce any more. It’s a leapfrog.

    It also screws the Cheetah even more because it is then a pure melee irregular, without much to recommend it in that role. Its not tanky enough and its may utility is the ability to get into formations and inflict Bleeding Wounds, but with Pounce on a touch, you’d just as well use the blade throwers.

    I liked the idea of removing the Guard mode and instead give them Total Awareness for one turn – they still take full damage but can’t suffer the total indignity of being flanked to death within seconds.

    #200281

    Thanks BBB!

    I will say I’ve definitely heard of you as it was your ongoing(?) tigran lets play that inspired me to buy the expansion and try them in the first place.

    To be honest, I don’t know if I will continue it. Part of me wants to, but part of me dislikes the editing, compressing, having to think things through and explain them and finally the slow uploads to youtube.

    Lots of work go into a paltry half hr (or maybe I just haven’t figured out a speedier process:S)

    #200331

    Jomungur
    Member

    I agree that cheetahs are too strong and are easily the best irregular. Personally, I would nerf pounce so it only works in green movement to give the opponent a chance to counter advancing cheetahs. It also puts the brakes on their ability to jump over city walls and snipe leaders/archers.

    But a lot has to do with game settings. Since they are irregulars, by definition any settlement can build them, even outposts, without structures. So if you play a settler game without cities (not uncommon in MP games), they will of course dominate, as your non-tigran opponents can’t match your early game army. I will go so far as to say in a settler game, you should consider banning tigrans.

    If you played a battle start with large starting capitals, I doubt they’d be an issue. But no one uses these settings in MP.

    #200337

    Meeky
    Member

    As an aside, settler games without cities are precisely the sort of games I’ve been trying to avoid in multiplayer play as it deviates a LOT from standard play. I’m pretty sure massed engineers, for instance, could just blunderbuss their way through cheetahs (albeit with casualties). I’ve yet to test that though, but I will try soon.

    This may be a problem with settler starts though, yeah. You can’t mass engineers, for instance, very easily in a settler start game, and they’re surprisingly effective units now.

    #200356

    Ericridge
    Member

    I think cheetahs is fine, I’m one of those people that don’t mind the asymmetrical balance. Plus don’t cheetahs get the hurl net because they lack a ranged attack? They’re a melee irregular so it is a given that their melee hits will hurt otherwise it would defeat the purpose of recruiting them at all.

    One recruits civic guard for their ranged attacks not melee hits. And their throw net when they have the racial governance upgrade.

    and I agree with edasaf that removal of hurl nets will break the coup de grace synergy and render that synergy only available in city siege battles on defense only.

    A look at tigran racial units as whole would be wise if one is to give attention to cheetah.

    Anyways, I’ll just leave you guys with possibly relevant gif for fun. XD
    Pounce ability is very appropriate for a cheetah unit, they can scale walls, just saying ok look at the gif xD

    #200359

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    I think lowering damage, preventing pounce from going over line of sight blockers (i.e. no wall jumping), and removing MA on gold is enough. Hurl net is there for race synergy so I think nerfing other areas of the unit make more sense.

    #200360

    Hatmage
    Member

    I’d like to get people’s opinions on the idea of polearm or pike square doing physical damage in a static shield-esque manner to pouncing and perhaps wing beating units. It could be that they come out too late to be useful, but it would fit nicely with the general rule that pikes counter mobile harassers.

    #200389

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Personally, I think Hurl Net Cheetah’s are a big part of the issue, since they negate the Cheetah’s one big weakness (after using pounce, the cheetah is just a melee fighter with very bad stats). I agree we need Hurl Net somewhere, due to the coup de grace synergy, but I don’t think having it on the Cheetah is right way to go.

    Options:

    1) Shredder’s currently get Hurl Net on Gold Medal. This could be changed so that they get Hurl Net from the RG upgrade, and we give them a different gold medal upgrade (suggestions welcome)
    2) The Hurl Net RG upgrade gives Hurl Net to Prowlers. We’ll need to change the Prowler Discount Upgrade to something else though, since having the first 2 upgrades on the same unit is bad (suggestions for replacements welcome).
    3) Hurl Net to an other core Tigran unit? Of Sun Guard, Mystics and Charioteers, none of them feel right to me, though given a choice I guess I’d go Sun Guard because I think they’re the worst of the 3.

    Finally, with regards to Pounce, by nerfing it we also nerf a ton of other units (Berserkers, Assassins, Manticore Riders, Dire Panthers). So we need to be careful here. I’m aware that some people think Tigran Berserkers in particular are too strong, but a lot of people disagree. If we do the Martial Arts/Sprint thing, and remove Hurl Net from Cheetahs, then Pounce is literally all the unit will have going for it. I feel that should be enough to stop them being OP, even with pounce having +3 damage and range 3.

    Finally, since no-one’s mentioned it, the best counter for massed cheetahs is probably massed irregulars. Initiates, Untouchables, Hatchlings, Orc Spearmen and Snow Scapers can all win in a straight fight against cheetahs (although not necessarily 1 on 1). The cheetah only has a resistance of 7 when not guarding, Snow Scapers and Untouchables in particular can really take advantage of that.

    #200399

    Meeky
    Member

    1) Shredder’s currently get Hurl Net on Gold Medal. This could be changed so that they get Hurl Net from the RG upgrade, and we give them a different gold medal upgrade (suggestions welcome)

    I think that’s a nice call. I’m… TEMPTED to say “Inflict Crippling Wounds,” but then you’d have Crippling and Bleeding on one T1 racial unit. Would be really, really juicy.

    I’m short of ideas for this besides that, but option 1 sounds good to me. Shredders are nice as is, especially with the bleed synergies within the Tigran race. Having to choose between hurling nets and doing more damage would be tough.

    EDIT: To explain, it’d be a tough choice because it puts the Shredder at risk as well (short range). The net damage bonus for hurling a net if you have a Prowler on the team would probably be magnificent.

    #200407

    limaceman
    Member

    I feel like cheetas are especially strong due to their mobility (6 movement + 3 tiles range from pounce), and later on martial arts, none of which being very cheeta-esque (=short speed bursts).

    In order to make them feel more like sprinters, I believe it would be more interesting to reduce their MP to 28 (5 tiles movement), give them sprint from start for speed bursts, and change pounce so that it would require 2AP to use (same as the stone boulder from the giants/trebs).
    At gold, overwhelm would be more fitting to me than martial arts.

    Then maybe swap the hurl net and prowler discoun RG upgrades, and I think that’s it!

    #200408

    Gloweye
    Member

    1) Shredder’s currently get Hurl Net on Gold Medal. This could be changed so that they get Hurl Net from the RG upgrade, and we give them a different gold medal upgrade (suggestions welcome)

    My preference. As for the gold Medal, maybe Sprint for a disengage? Or would that be to much sprinting?

    #200424

    m007kuzya
    Member

    My preference. As for the gold Medal, maybe Sprint for a disengage?

    It is too strong for Archers.

    Topicstarter says about pounce imba, but all here discus about Cheetah 🙂

    OK, lets talk about Cheetah.

    May be just nerf they stats? -2(-3?) dmg, -hp, -def etc.
    So, they still can be very useful:
    they can engage archer and supp.
    they can turn around enemy units, for flanking.
    they can throw net, to burn MP/AP or immobilize (+synergy with Coup de Grace).
    they can use mortial arts to burn AP and make bleeding wounds (+synergy with Bloodthirsty).
    … but with they new very low stats – they can not win battles alone!
    They only make huge help for other troops to win.
    They still the best irregular, but nobody can win game by using only spam Cheetah. So, they just make job of irregulars in army – help for main forces.

    #200427

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Since I think this is pretty important I would like to sum things up.

    We have the Cheetah issue and we have the Tigran RG issue.

    Cheetah has:38 HP, 9/7 Defense, 10 damage. Cost: 50 (+5 for Race, +5 for unit)
    It has Pounce (+3 damage)
    Inflicht Bleeding wounds (9)
    Forestry
    Barrens Running
    Night Vision
    Predator (+3 on opportunity attacks)
    40% Spirit Protection
    20% Frost Weakness
    (Tigran racial traits for +5 Gold)
    Medal Gains:
    Veteran: Sprint
    Expert: Forest Concealment
    Elite: Martial Arts

    Additionally, RG 2 gives them Hurl Net.

    —————————————–

    Cost-wise, the unit is a T1 Inf – the question being whether that’s necessary. The question is also, whether Tigran Race makes Tigran Warlord’s Raise Militia too much of a rush weapon, since Cheetahs are pretty darn fast, can get concealment, and have pretty nice synergies.

    The main question is, what a unit the Cheetah is supposed to be and what tasks the unit is supposed to fulfill.

    Let’s first look at the basic things of the unit: Pounce and base Damage
    I think, Irregs generally have an 11 point ranged and an 8 melee attack. Pounce is something like a ranged attack, but has a cooldown of 2 turns. Suggestion: reduce base damage by -1 and leave everything else (9 damage, 12 pounce). the general +1 covers the cooldown for Pounce.
    Abilities and Racial GovernanceThe non-racial abilities besides the Tigran’s are Forestry and Inflict Bleeding Wounds (9) (+4 damage each round). In combination with the Bloodthirty ability Inflict Bleeding Wounds is a pretty powerful ability, imo. If used on regular attacks, the trigger chances increase (making Martial Arts extremely powerful, because that encourages ruthless attacking) (1)
    Sprint is probably even better, because it can boost pounce (range), but it also allows the unit to disengage in the right moment, so it serves as an amplification of IBW/Martial Arts as well. (2)
    The Concealment medal is handy, but no one would object.
    Lastly, Hurl Net, as a Racial Governance Gift, offers an alternative use (Hurl Net works well in combo with Coup de Grace, although, Coup de Grace is comparably weak, since additional damage against helpless units is ok, but no winner. HURL net is of course a lot better than Throw Net, while the ability as such is an immobilizer. (3)

    That gives Cheetahs basically 3 boosts which means, that a stack of 6 Cheetahs with RG 2 are a lot better than 6 Spiders would be, and that they don’t need other troops to succeed.

    In my opinion ONE of those 3 things would be enough. With Hurl (Throw) Net and Pounce the unit has enough Irregular capabilities, while Infliect Bleeding Wounds is a damage increaser. With the damage reduction of -1 this would be a fine Irregular for 45 (with Hurl Net even 50 would be ok). In this case you had Medal gains of Forest Concealment at Veteran and Hurl(Throw) Net at Elite. (A)

    The alternative is replacing Hurl (Throw) Net with Sprint at Elite, also a typical Irregular ability. With Sprint, Martial Arts is completely OP (Cheetah Pounces; next turn, activates Sprint and with Martial Arts clobbers onto any unit like mad without suffering a lot of damage, and that in turn is very powerful with IBW). (B)

    Racial Governance
    Since RG1 SHOULD be about Cheetahs, with A you can give them EITHER Sprint OR Martial Arts; with B you can give them Hurl (Throw) Net.

    Summary of Cheetah suggestion:
    Generally: With HURL Net the unit would cost 50; with THROW Net it would cost 45.
    1) Reduce base damage by -1 to 9;
    2) Cheetahs gain Foest Concealment at Veteran;
    3a) Drop Martial Arts Completely; give Hurl (Throw) Net at Elite; RG 1 gives Cheetahs Sprint;
    3b) Drop Martial Arts Completely; give Hurl (Throw) Net at Elite; RG 1 gives Cheetahs Martial Arts;
    3c) Drop Martial Arts completely; give Sprint at Elite; RG 1 gives Cheetahs Hurl (Throw) Net.
    There is another possibility, at least in theory:
    3d) Drop Martial Arts completely; give Sprint at Elite; RG 1 gives Cheetahs Blodthirsty
    3e) Drop Martial Arts completely; give Bloodthirsty at Elite; RG 1 gives Cheetahs Sprint

    No Net in this case.

    I would prefer to keep Martial Arts for Warlord, actually. I would favor option 3c with THROW NET (to leave Shredder Elite special), for a cost of 45

    #200435

    thabob79
    Member

    I think -1 melee dmg and changing martial art for sprint at gold would be correct. Maybe forest conceal at vetetan is good. Rg5 would grant them sprint without medal

    Hurl net is really good but i think its a fait rg2 upgrade. It change your view of a unit and i like that.

    Good summary @Jolly Joker

    #200437

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    3c) Drop Martial Arts completely; give Sprint at Elite; RG 1 gives Cheetahs Hurl (Throw) Net.

    You mean RG2, like it is now, right? Otherwise this would actually be a quite a big buff for Cheetahs…

    Anyways, to quickly address the Cheetah’s stats. It’s true that the Cheetah has better bases stats than every other irregular, except the Orc Spearman, however it is exclusively a melee unit, so it needs that in order to have any survivability at all. If you compare it to actual infantry units, it’s stats are still awful.

    For example, a Goblin Marauder has:
    +2 hp
    +1 defense
    +1 resistance
    Shield
    Costs 10 gold less

    And people generally think Goblin Marauders are useless.

    I do agree that -1 melee strength, for 9 attack/12 pounce, can be an option though.

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